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RE: The Holy Grail of wargaming

 
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RE: The Holy Grail of wargaming - 7/11/2009 1:37:31 PM   
sol_invictus


Posts: 1961
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski

Holy cow! My wife and I went on a LONG cruise that started on June 7. We just arrived back home tonight. We purposely avoided the internet the entire time. Look what I missed. I can't wait for this "Mother of All Wargames" to be released. What an exciting surprise this is.



See what happens when you let your guard down and take wifey on a cruise. I hope you have learned your lessen and will never let this happen again. I am sure your wife will understand.


_____________________________

"The fruit of too much liberty is slavery", Cicero

(in reply to parusski)
Post #: 31
RE: The Holy Grail of wargaming - 7/11/2009 10:03:32 PM   
GaryChildress

 

Posts: 6830
Joined: 7/17/2005
From: The Divided Nations of Earth
Status: offline 		Never...EVER...take the wife on a cruise when you could be keeping up with your wargaming! Take that as marriage advice from me...one who has never been married.

EDIT: Also forget about anniversaries and keep an eye out for how attractive other women are. You don't want to narrow your possibilities too much. Also, women are attracted by flatulence (or is that flattery?).

< Message edited by Gary Childress -- 7/11/2009 10:07:16 PM >

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Post #: 32
RE: The Holy Grail of wargaming - 7/11/2009 11:57:48 PM   
sol_invictus


Posts: 1961
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

Never...EVER...take the wife on a cruise when you could be keeping up with your wargaming! Take that as marriage advice from me...one who has never been married.

EDIT: Also forget about anniversaries and keep an eye out for how attractive other women are. You don't want to narrow your possibilities too much. Also, women are attracted by flatulence (or is that flattery?).



I agree completely as one who has been married and has escaped that unfortunate condition.


_____________________________

"The fruit of too much liberty is slavery", Cicero

(in reply to GaryChildress)
Post #: 33
RE: The Holy Grail of wargaming - 7/12/2009 8:56:34 AM   
brisd


Posts: 614
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: San Diego, CA
Status: offline 		Nice to hear it will be weekly turns - actually playable even in less time than the war, unlike WITP.

_____________________________

"I propose to fight it out on this line if it takes all summer."-Note sent with Congressman Washburne from Spotsylvania, May 11, 1864, to General Halleck. - General Ulysses S. Grant

(in reply to PyleDriver)
Post #: 34
RE: The Holy Grail of wargaming - 7/12/2009 6:26:56 PM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		It's much more playable than WITP. The first few turns take some time as you get used to what your working with and keeping you Armys/Fronts organized. Then it picks up pace and is just pure fun...

_____________________________

Jon Pyle
AWD Beta tester
WBTS Alpha tester
WitE Alpha tester
WitW Alpha tester
WitE2 Alpha tester

(in reply to brisd)
Post #: 35
RE: The Holy Grail of wargaming - 7/12/2009 8:35:06 PM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline 		Is this air sytem very much like WIR? You could fly each air group only once per week, the rest was controlled by the computer during any ground units fighting there may had been.
Seems you should be able to fly each group out several times and land units attack "several" times per turn; unlike WIR. If WIR was an authoritive look into East Front gaming, and each hex were 50 miles (don't recall the size), then perhaps 10 mile hexes should give each unit 5X the attack attempts possible for WIR. That would mean you should be able to attack 5 times with each air group as well.

(in reply to PyleDriver)
Post #: 36
RE: The Holy Grail of wargaming - 7/12/2009 9:47:36 PM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		No it isn't, air range is taken into account, and depending on that many missions can occure in the same week/turn.

_____________________________

Jon Pyle
AWD Beta tester
WBTS Alpha tester
WitE Alpha tester
WitW Alpha tester
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(in reply to Charles2222)
Post #: 37
RE: The Holy Grail of wargaming - 7/12/2009 9:59:29 PM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline 		Thanks again.

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Post #: 38
RE: The Holy Grail of wargaming - 7/20/2009 5:53:37 PM   
Alexander Seil

 

Posts: 196
Joined: 4/22/2003
Status: offline 		I think maybe calling it the Holy Grail of Anything is a bit premature. So far it's an IGoUGo, pretty standard operational wargame - which in fact has less features than the ancient WiR. I don't dispute it could be a great game, but it's not going to be a wargame to end all Eastern Front wargames. It barely even qualifies as a monster game, besides, which is rather disappointing after WiTP (and yes, I'm fond of using WitP as an example of how not to do wargames, but it's still an epic game).

(in reply to Charles2222)
Post #: 39
RE: The Holy Grail of wargaming - 7/20/2009 6:44:56 PM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		To be honest, I really am not a WitP fan. Theres just to much stuff to keep track of. In this one were triming the game to be very playable and fun...

_____________________________

Jon Pyle
AWD Beta tester
WBTS Alpha tester
WitE Alpha tester
WitW Alpha tester
WitE2 Alpha tester

(in reply to Alexander Seil)
Post #: 40
RE: The Holy Grail of wargaming - 7/20/2009 7:05:24 PM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		Don't get be wrong, I like alot of stuff, badly, and we have it. But you can go to far in micro managment (thus AI kick-in). Joel and Gary and our test group (very creative bunch) is doing outstanding testing on this game...Just wait...

_____________________________

Jon Pyle
AWD Beta tester
WBTS Alpha tester
WitE Alpha tester
WitW Alpha tester
WitE2 Alpha tester

(in reply to PyleDriver)
Post #: 41
RE: The Holy Grail of wargaming - 7/21/2009 12:24:25 AM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 2903
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
Status: offline 		I'll be happy if WitE is not a monster game, I think we all appreciate the detail that Gary puts into these titles, but it also needs to be playable in a reasonable time scale, that doesn't end in divorce.

(in reply to Alexander Seil)
Post #: 42
RE: The Holy Grail of wargaming - 7/21/2009 6:04:48 AM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		Oh this is a monster game, the question is how we make it easier to play and still allow a player to control all the bells and whisels if they choose...

_____________________________

Jon Pyle
AWD Beta tester
WBTS Alpha tester
WitE Alpha tester
WitW Alpha tester
WitE2 Alpha tester

(in reply to Rasputitsa)
Post #: 43
RE: The Holy Grail of wargaming - 7/21/2009 9:48:56 AM   
Lützow


Posts: 1517
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline 		War in the Pacific has set a culmination point which no developer, not even 2by3, could top so far. WaW plainly sucked in my opinion, however WbtS was a good and well thought-out game again, albeit not that outstanding among competevily civil war titles as WitP for pacific theatre.

So with above in mind my hopes about another GG 'monster' game are high off course and I'm a bit concerned 2by3 could abstract too much details, cut micro-management or automate game aspects in favor for better accessibility, as they did with previous titles. The change for weekly turn are still acceptable for me (even I had prefer 3 days), but I'd like to have a similiar game experience as with WitP. Everything else would be disappointing and not match my expectations.

With that said, can you tell us a bit more about how logistics works in WitE ?

(in reply to PyleDriver)
Post #: 44
RE: The Holy Grail of wargaming - 7/21/2009 2:45:50 PM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 2903
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
Status: offline 		As most game designers will already know, it is impossible to please all customers all the time. When thinking of a monster game I was considering the amount of micro-mangement required. The East front is always going to be a monster subject, but at the level of command in the game, you would historically not control everything.

I know that there are many who wish to do so and I hope the game has enough control to satisfy them. I would only hope for enough optional automatic features to introduce some realistic uncertainty. Either way, by this stage, the die is cast and the word that recurs through these pages is, trust. Well I have bought just about everything that Gary has produced, so trust it is.

(in reply to PyleDriver)
Post #: 45
RE: The Holy Grail of wargaming - 7/21/2009 7:05:35 PM   
elmo3

 

Posts: 5820
Joined: 1/22/2002
Status: offline 		I loved Battle of Britain but hardly played Bombing the Reich again after being an alpha and beta tester for it. It was just "too much of a good thing". Really liked Uncommon Valor but never bought WitP because the level of detail and scale made the campaign look like something I'd never finish in my lifetime. So FWIW I'm with the guys here who hope the game does abstract enough of the myriad of details that could be added to make it playable. The scale of divisions and weekly turns sounds perfect.

(in reply to Rasputitsa)
Post #: 46
RE: The Holy Grail of wargaming - 7/21/2009 8:29:03 PM   
siRkid


Posts: 6650
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Orland FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lützow



With that said, can you tell us a bit more about how logistics works in WitE ?


As with anything Gary it's complicated. There are others that can tell you more but here is my understanding in simplified terms. The HQ collects and distribute supplies. Range from a railhead or port is critical on how much supply you get. A unit will try to pull from parent HQ and failing that look for a railhead. Supply is calculated by the distanced from Unit to HQ from HQ to Railhead/Port in hexes and also in MPs. So you could be within the required number of hexes but out of range in MPs. Trucks from a motor pool are used to transport supplies and they can break down. The further they have to transport then more that will break down. You get to use captured trucks after they have been repaired. Fuel affect movement points, more so on armor units than infantry. Supply affects combat, repair, and refit.

_____________________________

Former War in the Pacific Test Team Manager and Beta Tester for War in the East.


(in reply to Lützow)
Post #: 47
RE: The Holy Grail of wargaming - 7/21/2009 10:02:00 PM   
Lützow


Posts: 1517
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Thank your for your answer, Kid.

(in reply to siRkid)
Post #: 48
RE: The Holy Grail of wargaming - 8/1/2009 3:58:27 PM   
Shupov


Posts: 286
Joined: 2/7/2004
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kid


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lützow



With that said, can you tell us a bit more about how logistics works in WitE ?


As with anything Gary it's complicated. There are others that can tell you more but here is my understanding in simplified terms. The HQ collects and distribute supplies. Range from a railhead or port is critical on how much supply you get. A unit will try to pull from parent HQ and failing that look for a railhead. Supply is calculated by the distanced from Unit to HQ from HQ to Railhead/Port in hexes and also in MPs. So you could be within the required number of hexes but out of range in MPs. Trucks from a motor pool are used to transport supplies and they can break down. The further they have to transport then more that will break down. You get to use captured trucks after they have been repaired. Fuel affect movement points, more so on armor units than infantry. Supply affects combat, repair, and refit.


Glad to see trucks in the game! Will they be included in each unit's structure and affect its MP's?

_____________________________

STALINADE

The real RED soda!

(in reply to siRkid)
Post #: 49
RE: The Holy Grail of wargaming - 8/1/2009 5:39:35 PM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		Yes their in each unit. They effect MP's because of supply, or lack there of...The further from a railhead, well you do the math...We really have worked and tweaked supply and now after a year of testing, I'm very happy with it...Very historic as every truck is accounted for now in supply...I really wonder how Gary does all this...

_____________________________

Jon Pyle
AWD Beta tester
WBTS Alpha tester
WitE Alpha tester
WitW Alpha tester
WitE2 Alpha tester

(in reply to Shupov)
Post #: 50
RE: The Holy Grail of wargaming - 8/2/2009 4:30:29 AM   
knilli

 

Posts: 75
Joined: 12/30/2008
From: Joey Land
Status: offline 		we had this saying at work...."we do the impossible immediately, wonders will take a bit longer"....  it seems this qualifies for the category "wonder" 

thx guys!  

(in reply to PyleDriver)
Post #: 51
RE: The Holy Grail of wargaming - 8/2/2009 1:49:42 PM   
hank

 

Posts: 623
Joined: 8/24/2003
From: west tn
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3

I loved Battle of Britain but hardly played Bombing the Reich again after being an alpha and beta tester for it. It was just "too much of a good thing". Really liked Uncommon Valor but never bought WitP because the level of detail and scale made the campaign look like something I'd never finish in my lifetime. So FWIW I'm with the guys here who hope the game does abstract enough of the myriad of details that could be added to make it playable. The scale of divisions and weekly turns sounds perfect.


I have Uncommon Valor also but I could not get into it so eventually gave up playing. I'm not in any way saying it is not a good game. I heard it was sort of a strpped down WitP. FWIW, the strategy/op games I've played most are PzC's, SSG (KP/BiN/BF/KDotD) and TOAW.

So the question is, to get ready for WitE, would it be helpful in preparation to fire up UV again?
I suspect the interfaces will be quite different but would there be any advantage in becoming familiar with UV again?

I've done this several times with games. I would buy a game and find it not what I thought it would be; put it away; then go back to it and find out it was actually better than I originally thought. ... which I've been thinking could be the situation with UV.

(in reply to elmo3)
Post #: 52
RE: The Holy Grail of wargaming - 8/3/2009 12:08:04 AM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		No, WitE is not like UV at all. It will feel more like PzC or an SSG operational game than UV. UV/WitP are very unique because of their focus on naval/air interaction.

(in reply to hank)
Post #: 53
RE: The Holy Grail of wargaming - 8/10/2009 1:53:33 PM   
hank

 

Posts: 623
Joined: 8/24/2003
From: west tn
Status: offline 		Thanks Joel.  Your succinct answer has answered one of my big questions.  I went on and reloaded UV and have found it more enjoyable than when I first bought it a couple of years ago.  I guess I expected something different but this go around is quite fun.

I'm also playing through some of the division level TOAW games in anticipation of WitE.  I typically crank up a PzC game every few weeks so I'll be doing my Kursk, Smolensk or Kharkhov PzC games ... now that I've said the word "Smolensk", I'm feeling an urge to cross the Dnepr.

WitE has moved right up there with Battles from the Bulge (Panther Games) as the two I'm most likely going to get next.

Thanks again

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 54
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