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Enough already! - 7/10/2009 4:26:44 PM   
SlickWilhelm


Posts: 1854
Joined: 7/22/2007
From: Rochester, MN
Status: offline 		Can we please get game developers to focus on something other than The Battle of the Bulge?

From a personal/military history student/human drama perspective, the bulge is a fascinating subject. My own grandfather was killed in the later stage of the battle(Jan 16).

But from a gaming perspective, I just don't see the attraction of this battle. Whatever grandiose dreams a player may have of succeeding as the Germans and reaching Antwerp, the end result was always going to be a German defeat.

Unless I've fallen asleep at the switch, we've had two new games based on the Bulge released in the past year, and another one coming down the pipeline.

With so many other battles just dying to be recognized with a game devoted to them, I think it's unfortunate that we keep getting game after game of Bulge warfare.

Just a few battles I can think of that have been totally, or in part neglected by developers, that I think would make for a much more enriching battle experience:

- Battle of France, 1940.
- Barbarossa, 1941.
- North Africa, anytime.

And those are just a few.

Oh, how I wish the interesting looking game released yesterday was named "World War Two: Battle of France General" or that Panther Games' upcoming release was "Battles from the Desert" or "Battles from Kursk".

*sigh*

I hate to be negative when the fact that any good wargame produced is a cause for celebration in this market. But still...isn't it time to give the Bulge a rest and move on to other, more balanced battles?

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RE: Enough already! - 7/10/2009 4:42:06 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Sometimes it just works out that way. I can tell you that after BFTB there are no other "Bulge" games on the horizon that I can thing of, so the current crop will have to last a while.

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RE: Enough already! - 7/10/2009 5:54:58 PM   
killroyishere

 

Posts: 639
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quote:

- Battle of France, 1940.
Whatever grandiose dreams a player may have of succeeding as the French and holding off the Germans, the end result is always going to be a French defeat.

quote:

- Barbarossa, 1941.
Whatever grandiose dreams a player may have of succeeding as the Germans and reaching Moscow, the end result was always going to be a German defeat.

quote:

- North Africa, anytime.

Whatever grandiose dreams a player may have of succeeding as the Germans and reaching Alexandria, the end result was always going to be a German defeat.

So, I really don't see these above battles being any different than the Bulge battle. Just different OOB and scenry is about all.

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Post #: 3
RE: Enough already! - 7/10/2009 6:36:40 PM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		And strategy.

I think his point about "the end result" was tongue in cheek.

I kind of agree. I mean, I'm very much looking forward to Panther Games new release, but a North African game would be very welcome....or a russian campaign game.

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RE: Enough already! - 7/10/2009 7:12:42 PM   
V22 Osprey


Posts: 1593
Joined: 4/8/2008
From: Corona, CA
Status: offline 		How about a ''something other than WWII'' Campaign game?

Seriously, WWII is getting old now.Which is why I can't wait for modern wars:Vol 1.I love the JTCS engine and it will be great to play the JTCS system with modern units.It seems only Jason Petho and the rest of the JTCS team are only ones trying to make effort to make a game other than WWII here.


< Message edited by V22 Osprey -- 7/10/2009 7:13:49 PM >

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Post #: 5
RE: Enough already! - 7/10/2009 7:18:26 PM   
Qwixt


Posts: 902
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Status: offline 		I feel the same way about "A Bridge Too Far" games.

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Post #: 6
RE: Enough already! - 7/10/2009 7:33:54 PM   
Lützow


Posts: 1517
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Modern war games would be solely interesting if they depict actual conflicts, but most dev's shy away from this and don't need any kind of generic campaigns.

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Post #: 7
RE: Enough already! - 7/10/2009 7:42:48 PM   
Zakhal


Posts: 2494
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Jyväskylä, Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Slick Wilhelm

Can we please get game developers to focus on something other than The Battle of the Bulge?


Yes. As for choices:

quote:

- Battle of France, 1940.


I played 6 years of ww2ol that is based on that. And its only just one of the games that have it.

quote:

- Barbarossa, 1941.

Combat mission barbarossa amoing many others.

quote:

- North Africa, anytime.

You must be kidding.


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Post #: 8
RE: Enough already! - 7/10/2009 7:43:21 PM   
SlickWilhelm


Posts: 1854
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From: Rochester, MN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: killroyishere



So, I really don't see these above battles being any different than the Bulge battle. Just different OOB and scenry is about all.


Point taken.

I guess what I really meant by picking those three battles/theatres was that for gamers, there's more of a "chance to change history", being earlier in the war.

I just don't see the point in refighting the Bulge as a gamer, because now that I've beaten the Allies and reached Antwerp....my panzers still run out of fuel. Why? Because by early '45, it was already "game over".

That's why you don't see many/any "Battle of Berlin" games. Sure, it would be fun to play General Wenk or General Busse and hold the Allies at bay....but then what?

To me, it's more fun to fight historic battles where a different outcome could have really changed the course of history. Granted, a German victory in North Africa wouldn't have changed much, but it was early enough in the war to have altered the course of the war's direction, if not the outcome.


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RE: Enough already! - 7/11/2009 12:55:12 AM   
Phatguy

 

Posts: 1348
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From: Buffalo,ny
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Sometimes it just works out that way. I can tell you that after BFTB there are no other "Bulge" games on the horizon that I can thing of, so the current crop will have to last a while.



Yes, from MATRIX.... but all those other outfits seem to pop out Bulge games faster than the Octomom pops out babies..

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Post #: 10
RE: Enough already! - 7/11/2009 4:44:45 AM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		one issue is, when designers want to work on say a ancient or other time period game, most producers tell them no, there is no market for it

so for the most part, they are encouraged to work on a Nappy game, a CW game, or WWII (and mainly the better known battles, but try to work with a battle that can go either way)(not to knock it, I would like it, but a battle for France would be for HARD core gamers)




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Post #: 11
RE: Enough already! - 7/11/2009 5:59:07 AM   
Obsolete


Posts: 1492
Joined: 9/4/2007
Status: offline 		Hmm, I just realized something...

It's not wise to ever play the Spanish Armadas... Napoleon troops at Waterloo, or German units in Battle of Brittain.  They were all doomed to fail vs the British in the end, so what's the point :P

Ahh, never mind, seems someone already beat me to that...




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Post #: 12
RE: Enough already! - 7/11/2009 6:03:11 AM   
06 Maestro


Posts: 3989
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From: Nevada, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Slick Wilhelm

Oh, how I wish the interesting looking game released yesterday was named "World War Two: Battle of France General"



A few moons ago I had a great 1940 West Front game by A/H that covered that campaign-many hours spent with that. I agree it would make for a great PC game.

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Post #: 13
RE: Enough already! - 7/11/2009 6:36:57 AM   
V22 Osprey


Posts: 1593
Joined: 4/8/2008
From: Corona, CA
Status: offline 		I enjoy HPS Panzer Campaigns: France '40.Currently playing a team PBEM game as Allies.

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Post #: 14
RE: Enough already! - 7/11/2009 9:05:14 AM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		Perhaps we are the victims of our own hobby. Perhaps we are so "grognard" as to point out innacuracies in OOBs etc that it's "easier" to create the "usual" battles because the "usual" battles OOBs are already made. I expect a large chunk of dev time has to go into research. If the OOBs are already out there and done...what the hell - just bang the battle out again with a different interface and mechanics.

Perhaps it's just not worth developers spending all that time on research, only to be told their OOB is incorrect because it says there were 520 men in a regiment
...when there were actually 521
...actually there were 543 bewteen April 2nd 1941 and April 4th 1941
...nope...there were 527 between Feb 19th 1941 and April 4th 1941
...
...
...



Just saying - we've become so demanding of the accuracy of our games, maybe we've forgotten they're games?

I think probably the same can be said for the Flight Sim industry. It's pretty thin on the ground for material of late and the ones that are out there tend to be full on accurate (stduy sim is the term I see used). I mean, take Pacific Fighters. A great big expanse of water - the potential to have navy v navy, Air CAP, torpedo runs, dive bombing runs and Oleg could not make the key aicraft of the region flyable...why? Apparently because he couldn't get hold of the rights to the aircraft...so he couldn't make them "real". Personally I would've jumped into a Zero cockpit to have a flyable Dauntless or Devastator (nb - I can't remember what flyables were in the game - but you know what I mean). But once I had suggested that on a forum, I was almost digitally battered to death!

I'm not saying we should drop realism. Everyone wants to fight "the real thing"...but some knowledgable people from each era and each battle may forget the game they're playing is just that.

I don't think that last statement includes me...I have very little memory retention so reading a particular era or a particular battle doesn't normally stay with me for long - makes reading quite a frustrating hobby!

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Post #: 15
RE: Enough already! - 7/11/2009 1:34:11 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		not to stray too far from subject, but to reply to Judge

I was on that forum for a long time, it was very Fanboyish, if you disagreed with Olaf, you were a demon, and hounded, which of course let Olaf get away with what ever he wanted, the few HARD Code players who kept at it, finally got him to make changes, admit he was wrong, or cheating with is code (and of course, he never admitted it, he just happened to find out the AI didn't use the same flight model that the player did, gee how did that happpen ?)

I always found that couldn't get the rights arguement strange, since he was able to use the other Aircraft made by that company

but, to be honest, I never felt the lack of some of those planes as flyable was a game stopper, I never wanted to fly the TBD or TBF/M in that game, the radar guided AI controlled Flak guns, would make them one way missions anyway, if you were able to even get close to the target

not sure about the OOB idea, if you know where to look, there are many of them already done (trouble is knowing where to look, I still looking for the mother load, I just keep finding bits and pieces of it)




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Post #: 16
RE: Enough already! - 7/13/2009 5:40:17 AM   
Alexander Seil

 

Posts: 196
Joined: 4/22/2003
Status: offline 		There is a very simple reason - certain segments of the wargame market are completely dominated by middle-aged white men raised on board wargames based on the Bulge. Now they want the same thing on the PC.

I personally never played a board wargame, so the obsession with the Bulge is utterly alien to me. If we want to keep it WWII, I'd prefer a serious game about land campaigns in Asia (Burma, for example, dropping the overdone naval component that everyone and his mother already did 5 times).

And if not WWII, why not do a conflict no one ever did before? To my knowledge there was never a computer wargame about the Russian Civil War for example (this is one aspect where I'm seriously disappointed with Victoria), and what's not to love about that - sabres-drawn cavalry charges, lumbering WWI tanks, armored trains racing across the steppe, intricate politics, fluid campaigns. I wish wargame developers weren't perpetually stuck with devoting 80% of their time to recreating the same damn WWII battles time and time again.

< Message edited by Alexander Seil -- 7/13/2009 5:44:55 AM >

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RE: Enough already! - 7/13/2009 6:02:38 AM   
V22 Osprey


Posts: 1593
Joined: 4/8/2008
From: Corona, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alexander Seil

There is a very simple reason - certain segments of the wargame market are completely dominated by middle-aged white men raised on board wargames based on the Bulge. Now they want the same thing on the PC.

I personally never played a board wargame, so the obsession with the Bulge is utterly alien to me. If we want to keep it WWII, I'd prefer a serious game about land campaigns in Asia (Burma, for example, dropping the overdone naval component that everyone and his mother already did 5 times).

And if not WWII, why not do a conflict no one ever did before? To my knowledge there was never a computer wargame about the Russian Civil War for example (this is one aspect where I'm seriously disappointed with Victoria), and what's not to love about that - sabres-drawn cavalry charges, lumbering WWI tanks, armored trains racing across the steppe, intricate politics, fluid campaigns. I wish wargame developers weren't perpetually stuck with devoting 80% of their time to recreating the same damn WWII battles time and time again.


I completely agree, look how big the WW2 section of the forums are.Not to mention the countless titles that have WW2 in the name.(Advanced Tactics:WW2, WW2 General Commander, WW2 Road to Victory, WW2 Time of Rath, etc)

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Post #: 18
RE: Enough already! - 7/13/2009 9:25:42 AM   
Tomus

 

Posts: 234
Joined: 9/22/2003
From: UK
Status: offline 		I agree as well especially with over done Western Front scenarios...particularly the Bulge which I don't find that massively interesting and a forgone conclusion as well.

I like WWII as an era and want to keep wargaming there but some of the lesser know campaigns would be really welcome. China is never covered, as is Burma, Italy, even the US Island hopping campaign gets relatively little attention.

Some other wars would be welcome...the Falklands is one I have never understood has drawn so little attention. Combined arms, naval and air combat, a touch and go ground campaign, relatively evenly matched forces. This would make a superb wargame.

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Post #: 19
RE: Enough already! - 7/13/2009 4:21:03 PM   
Joe D.


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From: Stratford, Connecticut
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Slick Wilhelm

... I guess what I really meant by picking those three battles/theatres was that for gamers, there's more of a "chance to change history", being earlier in the war.


Then you're going to trade-in the Bulge for the 'Canal.

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RE: Enough already! - 7/13/2009 6:59:59 PM   
SireChaos

 

Posts: 710
Joined: 8/14/2006
From: Frankfurt, Germany
Status: offline 		Hey, it´s not like there aren´t lots of scenarios that haven´t been simulated to death already:

- the Thirty Years´ War
- the Mongol invasion of Europe
- the Spanish Civil War
- the Russian Civil War
- the campaigns of the Migration Period (primarly the exploits of Attila the Hun)
- the conquest of the Americas (primarily the fall of the Aztec and Inca empires)
- the rebellion of the Seven Provinces of the Netherlands (aka the Eighty Years´ War)
- the Crusades
- ...

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Post #: 21
RE: Enough already! - 7/13/2009 7:03:49 PM   
V22 Osprey


Posts: 1593
Joined: 4/8/2008
From: Corona, CA
Status: offline 		- Anglo-Zulu War
- The United States' Expansion West fighting the Native Americans
- English Civil War
- Fights between Japan and USSR in 1939 and 1945
- ....

< Message edited by V22 Osprey -- 7/13/2009 7:07:17 PM >

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Post #: 22
RE: Enough already! - 7/13/2009 9:08:46 PM   
Chijohnaok2


Posts: 628
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From: Florida, USA (formerly Chicago)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey

How about a ''something other than WWII'' Campaign game?


Yeah!!!! Can we maybe get comprehensive game covering the Anglo-Zanzibar War .

Maybe 3-4 scenarios, in addition to a full blown campaign.

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Post #: 23
RE: Enough already! - 7/14/2009 12:03:38 AM   
EdinHouston

 

Posts: 100
Joined: 7/26/2008
Status: offline 		I understand people might like to see something different, other than more WW2 games.

But one thing to think about is, maybe the developers are focusing on wars/battles that customers actuallly want to buy. This is already a small niche market, and when you start talking wars/battles like the 30 Years War, well then you are talking about a small niche within a small niche. Good luck trying to make any money on that.

I dont disagree that it wouldnt be fun to see other wars/battles. Personally, I like the ancient, medieval and musket eras more than many wargamers. But i understand that those eras arent as popular, wont sell as well, and therefore are less likely to be made.

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Post #: 24
RE: Enough already! - 7/14/2009 12:28:36 AM   
Arjuna


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From: Canberra, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EdinHouston

I understand people might like to see something different, other than more WW2 games.

But one thing to think about is, maybe the developers are focusing on wars/battles that customers actuallly want to buy. This is already a small niche market, and when you start talking wars/battles like the 30 Years War, well then you are talking about a small niche within a small niche. Good luck trying to make any money on that.

I dont disagree that it wouldnt be fun to see other wars/battles. Personally, I like the ancient, medieval and musket eras more than many wargamers. But i understand that those eras arent as popular, wont sell as well, and therefore are less likely to be made.

Alas this is too true. The facts are that it's a hand to mouth existence for wargame designers. Every title needs to be a winner. Developing titles on esoteric subjects increases the risk that you go out of business. Now we heard this same chorus after HTTR and so we opted to do something different, hence Conquest of the Agean ( COTA ). While this scooped all the awards we kept hearing from potential customers that they were not going to buy it because they were not interested in the Greek or Crete battles. But <G> were they looking forward to our next Bulge game.

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Post #: 25
RE: Enough already! - 7/14/2009 3:44:15 AM   
Alexander Seil

 

Posts: 196
Joined: 4/22/2003
Status: offline 		People are missing the point that one of the big reasons the wargaming market is small is because most companies tend to develop the same game over and over again. Just look at HPS (their WW2 games, that is). Yes, WW2 sells more by default, but there's a lot of stuff you can do there that's not the Bulge.

And, besides, if the entire marketing strategy here is based on selling wargames about the Bulge to middle-aged white men, here's a newsflash - the industry is living on borrowed time. And the specifics of what you make a game about don't really matter if you market it to the general public. Sure, WW2 helps, but people will buy games about the 30 Years' War too. Just look at Paradox - which incidentally had pretty good luck so far marketing a wargame like HoI2 to the mainstream gamer (at 500,000 copies sold).

Of course if the industry wants to go on assuming that anyone under the age of 30 is genetically incapable of enjoying a wargame, it will go the way of the dodo and in the future we'll only play MMORPGs. Thankfully, that's not going to be the case because there are enough developers who realize that there is a demand for novel strategy games and wargames that are based on original models and material.

EDIT: Though I suppose HPS does one thing wrong and one thing right - they keep reusing the same tired old engine, but they DO keep it fresh by introducing obscure battles!

EDIT2: In case you're wondering how old I am, by the way, I'm 22. Never touched a board wargame, either. Discovered wargames entirely by accident because back in the 1990's wargame developers didn't look down their nose on the mainstream gaming press.

quote:


Alas this is too true. The facts are that it's a hand to mouth existence for wargame designers. Every title needs to be a winner. Developing titles on esoteric subjects increases the risk that you go out of business. Now we heard this same chorus after HTTR and so we opted to do something different, hence Conquest of the Agean ( COTA ). While this scooped all the awards we kept hearing from potential customers that they were not going to buy it because they were not interested in the Greek or Crete battles. But <G> were they looking forward to our next Bulge game.


So? That's because your "customers" (and they aren't really customers, are they? They're members of Matrix Games forums, which resemble a retirement community at times) are the same middle-aged white men. How come Paradox can "sell" HoI3 to mainstream press (despite it having, *gasp* counters on almost every screenshot released!), but you can't? Clearly it's not a problem with your game, it's a problem with how you market it. Personally the very fact that you did this topic earns you points with me as a customer for as long as you continue being a developer.

EDIT3: In case you're wondering, I am one of your customers, and I held off on buying anything about Market Garden until I could get my hands on COTA.

< Message edited by Alexander Seil -- 7/14/2009 3:52:28 AM >

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Post #: 26
RE: Enough already! - 7/14/2009 4:49:24 AM   
V22 Osprey


Posts: 1593
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From: Corona, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna


quote:

ORIGINAL: EdinHouston

I understand people might like to see something different, other than more WW2 games.

But one thing to think about is, maybe the developers are focusing on wars/battles that customers actuallly want to buy. This is already a small niche market, and when you start talking wars/battles like the 30 Years War, well then you are talking about a small niche within a small niche. Good luck trying to make any money on that.

I dont disagree that it wouldnt be fun to see other wars/battles. Personally, I like the ancient, medieval and musket eras more than many wargamers. But i understand that those eras arent as popular, wont sell as well, and therefore are less likely to be made.

Alas this is too true. The facts are that it's a hand to mouth existence for wargame designers. Every title needs to be a winner. Developing titles on esoteric subjects increases the risk that you go out of business. Now we heard this same chorus after HTTR and so we opted to do something different, hence Conquest of the Agean ( COTA ). While this scooped all the awards we kept hearing from potential customers that they were not going to buy it because they were not interested in the Greek or Crete battles. But <G> were they looking forward to our next Bulge game.


But come on, Crete and Malta? We want to see things that are actually exciting like Japan fighting the USSR in 1939 with some intense battles.Or maybe the Winter War.I haven't heard anyone ever want a game about Crete and Malta, that should've been a sign.Give us something different, but give us something different that we actually want to see.

I am only 16, I only discovered computer wargames by accident when I discovered Steel Panthers:WAW when trying to search for some good games for free because I didnt have the money to get new games at the time.I actually have played board wargames, though.Tactics II I think it's called, still have it after getting it from an antique shop a few years ago.

< Message edited by V22 Osprey -- 7/14/2009 4:52:54 AM >

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Post #: 27
RE: Enough already! - 7/14/2009 9:17:43 AM   
Arsan

 

Posts: 409
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From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey
But come on, Crete and Malta? We want to see things that are actually exciting like Japan fighting the USSR in 1939 with some intense battles.Or maybe the Winter War.I haven't heard anyone ever want a game about Crete and Malta, that should've been a sign.Give us something different, but give us something different that we actually want to see.


YMMV, but at least i find the Crete and Greece campaigns much more interesting than the Japan vs USSR or Fins vs URSS campaigns.
There weren't any Fallschirmjagers in Nomohan! What a bore!



< Message edited by Arsan -- 7/14/2009 12:18:59 PM >

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Post #: 28
RE: Enough already! - 7/14/2009 12:06:30 PM   
JudgeDredd


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From: Scotland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arsan
YMMY, but at least i find the Crete and Greece campaigns much more interesting than the Japan vs USSR or Fins vs URSS campaigns.
There weren't any Fallschirmjagers in Nomohan! What a bore!

I agree - I find nothing interesting about the USSR and Fins or USSR and Japanese battles - nothing at all.

Although I never really knew much or was interested in the Greek region - COTA changed my mind there.

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Post #: 29
RE: Enough already! - 7/14/2009 12:43:41 PM   
doomtrader


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From: Poland
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quote:

Just look at Paradox - which incidentally had pretty good luck so far marketing a wargame like HoI2 to the mainstream gamer (at 500,000 copies sold).

Johan said it was 200,000 with 60,000 in USA


Except what was told above, also reviewers are a little bit guilty. If there is a review of a wargame (hexes, turns) in some non-wargaming magazine or portal, then it's most often starts with the words: "Another hardcore title for veterans from XXX company (...)". There is also a lot of words like hard, challenge, complicated etc.
I'm not suprised that regular player baypasses strategy genre.

So if you wish to have better selection, buy a strategy game for your friend's kid, maybe he will dive into the genre.

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(in reply to JudgeDredd)
Post #: 30
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