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RE: AE's price - 7/13/2009 5:47:14 AM   
Panjack

 

Posts: 401
Joined: 7/12/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Ok, this is getting ridiculous....

Erik,

I was not accusing Matrix Games of doing anything ethically wrong. But your pricing scheme immediately struck me as a tying scheme, which has led some companies to incur huge legal expenses.

If it was my money on the line I'd be interested in consulting a lawyer about this pricing scheme and, perhaps, figure out some alternative scheme that avoided even the appearance of tying. This would be easily done.

My sole intent was to raise a legal issue you were likely unaware of...and this is a legal issue that can't be resolved by a quick read by a layperson of something posted on the Internet as familiarity with relevant case law is required in order to give good advice.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 211
RE: AE's price - 7/13/2009 5:52:25 AM   
Graycompany


Posts: 511
Joined: 8/19/2004
Status: offline 		Well, think of it this way..... The Cost of AE is $130.00. For that price, they throw in WITP. (as a learning tool) For those of you that already have WITP, special for you my friends, one time only offer, of $70.00. There problem solved. Expansion, Mod, sequel, evil step twin, what is in a name. Fact is, this is what is being offered, very easy, take it or leave it. Nobody is forcing you to buy it. Feel free to complain, but for what reason? We all make (or not) purchases every day. If we really want something, we find a way to get it. If the price is to high, then the desire is either there to find that way to get it, or pass. I have supported Matrix on a number of purchases, and my desk is full of computer games I bought, and they sucked, there was no support, no patches. Matrix has supported every game I have bought. Forge of Freddom was not very good when it came out. After patching, it is one of the best games i have played for that era. I look at AE as a Game I was going to buy, I Think Erik has stated that Matrix is doing this for people who have WITP, for those that came after, as I started with this post, the price will be higher than those that already have WITP.



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Post #: 212
RE: AE's price - 7/13/2009 5:55:04 AM   
jeffk3510


Posts: 4132
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

quote:

ORIGINAL: Panjack


quote:

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish
Go to law school and you will learn it is without a doubt legal.

I haven't gone to law school. But I disagree that is obviously legal if only because federal anti-trust law makes some types of tying contracts illegal. Perhaps the Sherman and Clayton Acts are not relevant to this particular situation, but if they are and Matrix Games gets hauled into court that might be the end of Matrix Games.

If I was them I'd consult with a good lawyer before following their proposed pricing scheme.



While serving in Germany for the U.S.Army, one of the fellas I served with, (in another platoon) was visited by his well off parents.
They asked "Eddie"(not his real name) what he would like before they went back home.
"Eddie" said he wanted a Matra Simca, 3 seater, low slung sports coupe.
With nary a hesitation, the purchase was made that same morning.
The parents left and for about a week "Eddie" raced the environs of Frankfurt am Main, always with 2 scantily clad babes on his lap and in the passenger seats.
Well, at the end of the week, "Eddie" was brought back to the Kaserne in a green and white Polizei Opel, as he had married his expensive Matra Simca to the lower portion of a rocky soil adjacent to the river Main.
His passengers were hospitalized.

See, he could BUY the car, but he could not DRIVE the car.
He knew better, or you would think so.
Hell, the guy was serving as a Military Policeman, so he knew what the rules were for the road, but he just did not think they really applied to HIM, and his expensive machine.

For the sake of argument, let us suppose that Matrix knew the AE project was going to be so involved, that in order to avoid the demands for merchandise returns, they intended to sell it only to those persons who were already familiar with the WITP engine, and had already invested the time to learn the BASICS.
Matrix is a commercial entity in an already selectively burgeoned market, and the current economy only makes their gamble more pronounced.
With NO like firm in the market, when they go, we are screwed.

Apparently, you do not understand that many of us on this forum have high posting numbers, which reflect a quantum of *contribution* to this game.
The entire AE team is made up of fellow forumites who have been around since Diogenes was looking for matches.(You get the idea).

Your single suggestion seems presumptive, and suggests Matrixgames just opened in the back of a hat shop, perhaps?

The forum you have joined includes every educated profession on every inhabited continent of the globe.
This includes lawyers.

We forumites do appreciate newcomers, and the fresh blood they bring, but like Clint Eastwood said "Every man should know his limitations".

Your legal advice is not needed.




panjack.... I think this is under control... let it go


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Post #: 213
RE: AE's price - 7/13/2009 11:01:01 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panjack
My sole intent was to raise a legal issue you were likely unaware of...and this is a legal issue that can't be resolved by a quick read by a layperson of something posted on the Internet as familiarity with relevant case law is required in order to give good advice.


I appreciate your intentions were good, but I have no idea who you are or what your legal experience is either. If you would like to explain to me why I should consider this a realistic concern, please e-mail me at erikr@matrixgames.com and continue the discussion there. If any other lawyers want to e-mail me and chime in, feel free, but let's not continue this here please.

Regards,

- Erik


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Post #: 214
RE: AE's price - 7/13/2009 5:11:11 PM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rroberson
I think that's the thing that has me annoyed about the price.



Think about it. As a standalone game it would cost you over $100.00, probably closer to$130.00. This way current owners get a decent price, it's only the few people who haven't already bought WitP that have to pony up that amount. And they did say a discount on WitP would be offered for those people. I mean common, it's been 5 years since WitP was released, how many fence sitters can there be?

Jim


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Post #: 215
RE: AE's price - 7/13/2009 5:27:02 PM   
philabos

 

Posts: 143
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline 		The original Pacific War sold for $69.99 in 1992.
As I recall, but sure someone will prove me wrong, it sold out at that price because the publisher underestimated the demand.

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Post #: 216
RE: AE's price - 7/13/2009 5:40:25 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline 		I fine the price to be more than reasonable. And I personally would probably still buy it at twice the price!

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Post #: 217
RE: AE's price - 7/13/2009 6:29:44 PM   
jeffk3510


Posts: 4132
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From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

I fine the price to be more than reasonable. And I personally would probably still buy it at twice the price!



That makes 2 of us.

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Post #: 218
RE: AE's price - 7/13/2009 7:43:12 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warrenup

The original Pacific War sold for $69.99 in 1992.
As I recall, but sure someone will prove me wrong, it sold out at that price because the publisher underestimated the demand.


But I think the original WITP sold for $40.00 in 1978. That was actually a fairly high price in those days.



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Post #: 219
RE: AE's price - 7/13/2009 7:58:36 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		Gary Grigsby's then mammoth wargame (8-bit) War in Russia sold for $80.00 in 1985. (nearly double the usually price for an SSI title)

It was worth every penny.



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Post #: 220
RE: AE's price - 7/13/2009 8:01:21 PM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I mean common, it's been 5 years since WitP was released, how many fence sitters can there be?


It strange that people see reality as something freezed in time and not as dynamic. There are no people that get kids and wifes and now after been established get some time to return to teenage hobby, inverse people that go out, got other projects and drops gaming, new kids that arrive to spaceship Earth. People from all over the world that got internet in meantime, people that didn't discovered this hobby. People that got an interest in Japanese History in meantime, people that for some reason visited Pacific Islands and got curious?

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Post #: 221
RE: AE's price - 7/13/2009 8:38:40 PM   
bobogoboom


Posts: 3799
Joined: 2/13/2006
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		I nominate this thread for one of the most idiotic ever on the matrix forums. most have wasted more that $70 worth of their time arguing about the price.

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Post #: 222
RE: AE's price - 7/13/2009 8:45:15 PM   
kfmiller41


Posts: 1063
Joined: 3/25/2003
From: Saint Marys, Ga
Status: offline 		Second that

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Post #: 223
RE: AE's price - 7/13/2009 8:56:51 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bobogoboom

I nominate this thread for one of the most idiotic ever on the matrix forums. most have wasted more that $70 worth of their time arguing about the price.



Hmm... I just spent spent 10 minutes reading portions of this mess.

If I were an attorney representing a firm I am investigating I could bill at a few hundred to a few thousand dollars an hour...and if I retire and hire my knowledge of my profession out as a consultant I could bill at a few hundred dollars an hour...

So for discussions sake we'll say my time is worth $300/hr. So 1/6th of 300 = 50. So 10 minutes of my time equals about $50.00.

And the 5 minutes I spent crafting this post would run $25.00.



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Post #: 224
RE: AE's price - 7/13/2009 8:58:52 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		free bonus with each download






Attachment (1)

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Post #: 225
RE: AE's price - 7/13/2009 9:05:42 PM   
DivePac88


Posts: 3119
Joined: 10/9/2008
From: Somewhere in the South Pacific.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

free bonus with each download



Or a free bonus for flogging a dead horse




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by DivePac88 -- 7/13/2009 9:06:31 PM >

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Post #: 226
RE: AE's price - 7/13/2009 9:07:19 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		ooooo....had to save that one to disk. thx!



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Post #: 227
RE: AE's price - 7/13/2009 9:20:36 PM   
mjk428

 

Posts: 1944
Joined: 6/15/2002
From: Western USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

free bonus with each download








Do you think your immature response to what you consider bad behavior actually makes a positive contribution?

This is what Erik had to say yesterday:

quote:

Ok, I had a night to sleep on some of the feedback here. Let me try to approach this again, because we do most definitely care what you all think.


Matrix cares what we all think - not just what the fanbois think.



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Post #: 228
RE: AE's price - 7/13/2009 9:38:05 PM   
jeffk3510


Posts: 4132
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mjk428


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

free bonus with each download








Do you think your immature response to what you consider bad behavior actually makes a positive contribution?

This is what Erik had to say yesterday:

quote:

Ok, I had a night to sleep on some of the feedback here. Let me try to approach this again, because we do most definitely care what you all think.


Matrix cares what we all think - not just what the fanbois think.










_____________________________

Life is tough. The sooner you realize that, the easier it will be.

Currently chasing three kids around the Midwest.

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Post #: 229
RE: AE's price - 7/13/2009 9:40:30 PM   
bobogoboom


Posts: 3799
Joined: 2/13/2006
From: Dallas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mjk428


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

free bonus with each download








Do you think your immature response to what you consider bad behavior actually makes a positive contribution?

This is what Erik had to say yesterday:

quote:

Ok, I had a night to sleep on some of the feedback here. Let me try to approach this again, because we do most definitely care what you all think.


Matrix cares what we all think - not just what the fanbois think.



but we don't care what you think

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Post #: 230
RE: AE's price - 7/13/2009 9:48:49 PM   
viberpol


Posts: 838
Joined: 10/20/2005
From: Gizycko, Poland, EU
Status: offline 		Hey, people, make love not war!


If you want war, arrange a PBEM AE duel?

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Post #: 231
RE: AE's price - 7/13/2009 9:51:28 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		how immature!



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Post #: 232
RE: AE's price - 7/13/2009 9:54:11 PM   
jjax


Posts: 289
Joined: 2/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: viberpol

Hey, people, make love not war!


If you want war, arrange a PBEM AE duel?


Not a bad idea.

By the time their AE duel is done, they will have forgot what they were fighting about.

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Post #: 233
RE: AE's price - 7/13/2009 9:57:01 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		they'll be too busy working on Japan turn ones.......... i suspect records will be broken in terms of hours spent.

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Post #: 234
RE: AE's price - 7/13/2009 9:57:31 PM   
Durbik


Posts: 276
Joined: 1/20/2008
From: Krakow, Poland
Status: offline 		but that soccer pic is true, though.

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Post #: 235
RE: AE's price - 7/13/2009 9:58:08 PM   
viberpol


Posts: 838
Joined: 10/20/2005
From: Gizycko, Poland, EU
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
how immature!



We all know you have a sharp tongue...
But do you afraid of being beaten??

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Post #: 236
RE: AE's price - 7/13/2009 10:04:59 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		only by the GF unit if i spend too much time working on quote "that *$#&)!# Matrix game." unquote



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Post #: 237
RE: AE's price - 7/13/2009 10:07:22 PM   
bobogoboom


Posts: 3799
Joined: 2/13/2006
From: Dallas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

only by the GF unit if i spend too much time working on quote "that *$#&)!# Matrix game." unquote



i have a feeling that the crazy pit is going to destory the manual and cd when it comes in.

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Post #: 238
RE: AE's price - 7/13/2009 10:45:54 PM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bobogoboom

I nominate this thread for one of the most idiotic ever on the matrix forums. most have wasted more that $70 worth of their time arguing about the price.



Yeah but it's pretty tame compared to this:

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical/browse_thread/thread/a369bed619ce91f1#

Jim

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Post #: 239
RE: AE's price - 7/13/2009 11:13:59 PM   
bobogoboom


Posts: 3799
Joined: 2/13/2006
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		ok i stand corrected that was worse.

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Post #: 240
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