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Pending Modern Wars Vol. I - 7/16/2009 1:11:13 AM   
GavinP

 

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Guys,

Having just re-installed Divided Ground Middle East with all the US, Muslim, Islamist and assorted other mods that appeared several years ago, I was wondering if Jason, or anyone else for that matter could possibly give us a bit of a sneak peak at what we can expect from the pending Modern Wars Vol. I Middle East workover.

I take it DG Vietnam is going to be much the same as Jorge's fantastic mods - which worked real well - that he made some four/five years ago.

But as Mideast games are so flawed was just wondering what we can expect vis-a-vis scenarios, maps, orgs, nations etc.

Cheers.

GavinP
Post #: 1
RE: Pending Modern Wars Vol. I - 7/16/2009 2:56:25 AM   
Jason Petho


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From: Terrace, BC, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GavinP


Guys,

Having just re-installed Divided Ground Middle East with all the US, Muslim, Islamist and assorted other mods that appeared several years ago, I was wondering if Jason, or anyone else for that matter could possibly give us a bit of a sneak peak at what we can expect from the pending Modern Wars Vol. I Middle East workover.

I take it DG Vietnam is going to be much the same as Jorge's fantastic mods - which worked real well - that he made some four/five years ago.

But as Mideast games are so flawed was just wondering what we can expect vis-a-vis scenarios, maps, orgs, nations etc.

Cheers.

GavinP


Here is a start.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1975739

Hopefully it will answer a few of the questions.

The Middle East portion will be a brand new offering (DG was scrapped). New OOB's, new scenarios, new maps, updated and new graphics, etc. The first set of scenarios are a variety of H2H and Hal, although with a heavy focus on H2H - as with the Campaign Series, this is intended to be a living game , meaning that future UPDATES will be available that will add oobs, units, scenarios and campaigns for free. The first release will not be the final version.

Topics for the Middle East portion include the usual suspects of 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973 and 1982. Additional conflicts, battles that are covered are the various border clashes, Algeria War of Independence, Yemen, War of Attrition, etc etc. Initial countries to be included are Israel, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, France, UK, Iraq and the Muslim & Islamic factions. I hope you will be happy with the redone OOB's, I have spent far too much time on them and are definitely designed with the scenario designer in mind.

Vietnam is Jorge's version, with enhancements, additional OOBs, new units, new graphics and updated play features. A limited number of scenarios will be included (50, I believe) for the initial release, many more will follow with additional UPDATES. The first and third Indochina Wars will be partially covered, mostly providing the tools for those that are interested in the theatre to build and expand.

While the US will be included in Vietnam, I am in the middle of rebuilding the USA and USSR from scratch to be included in Modern Wars: Volume II that will deal with NATO vs Warsaw Pact and Korea.

As per usual, the MAP, OOB and SCENARIO editors are included.

Jason Petho






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Post #: 2
RE: Pending Modern Wars Vol. I - 7/16/2009 4:02:25 AM   
rich12545

 

Posts: 1705
Joined: 10/31/2000
From: Palouse, WA
Status: offline 		As a solo only player (and there are many of us) I'm wondering about the emphasis on H2H.  Do you know roughly how many solo scenarios there will be in each offering?  What will be included for the solo player?  I'm mostly interested in the middle east and vietnam.

(in reply to Jason Petho)
Post #: 3
RE: Pending Modern Wars Vol. I - 7/16/2009 4:08:54 AM   
Jason Petho


Posts: 15009
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From: Terrace, BC, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545

As a solo only player (and there are many of us) I'm wondering about the emphasis on H2H.  Do you know roughly how many solo scenarios there will be in each offering?  What will be included for the solo player?  I'm mostly interested in the middle east and vietnam.


Stand alone scenarios for play against HAL (AI, Programmed Opponent, whatever you want to call him) and Linked Campaign Games.

As mentioned, the editors are also included to build whatever scenario type you wish.

Jason Petho

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Post #: 4
RE: Pending Modern Wars Vol. I - 7/16/2009 4:12:38 PM   
rich12545

 

Posts: 1705
Joined: 10/31/2000
From: Palouse, WA
Status: offline 		Jason, thanks for replying.  A couple of things just to clarify if you don't mind.
Per title, about how many solo scenarios will be included?  Closer to 3 or 30 or 60?  I don't do much with scenario editors but am a big fan of random scenario generators.  Will that be included?

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Post #: 5
RE: Pending Modern Wars Vol. I - 7/16/2009 4:34:58 PM   
Jason Petho


Posts: 15009
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From: Terrace, BC, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545
Jason, thanks for replying.  A couple of things just to clarify if you don't mind.
Per title, about how many solo scenarios will be included?  Closer to 3 or 30 or 60? 


To start, a dozen or so per game.


quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545
I don't do much with scenario editors but am a big fan of random scenario generators.  Will that be included?


Not with the initial release, no. But will be included in a future UPDATE along with the Dynamic Campaigns.

Jason Petho



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Post #: 6
RE: Pending Modern Wars Vol. I - 7/16/2009 5:23:25 PM   
V22 Osprey


Posts: 1593
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From: Corona, CA
Status: offline 		So, no battle generator with initial release?Did I read that right?I thought the Battle Generator is built into the game???

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Post #: 7
RE: Pending Modern Wars Vol. I - 7/16/2009 6:13:30 PM   
Jason Petho


Posts: 15009
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From: Terrace, BC, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey
So, no battle generator with initial release?Did I read that right?I thought the Battle Generator is built into the game???


It is, but doesn't seem to be functioning as intended at the moment. If it can be fixed before the initial release, it will be included; if not, it will be included in a later UPDATE.

One way or another, it will be included. Just a matter of when.

Jason Petho



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Post #: 8
RE: Pending Modern Wars Vol. I - 7/16/2009 7:52:33 PM   
V22 Osprey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho


quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey
So, no battle generator with initial release?Did I read that right?I thought the Battle Generator is built into the game???


It is, but doesn't seem to be functioning as intended at the moment. If it can be fixed before the initial release, it will be included; if not, it will be included in a later UPDATE.

One way or another, it will be included. Just a matter of when.

Jason Petho




Damn, was the Original Divided Ground that bad?

It sounds like DG sucked so bad that you guys had literally strip it down to just the menus and executible file and start everything from scratch.

(in reply to Jason Petho)
Post #: 9
RE: Pending Modern Wars Vol. I - 7/16/2009 8:21:11 PM   
Jason Petho


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From: Terrace, BC, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey

Damn, was the Original Divided Ground that bad?



Not sure if it was that bad, but it certainly wasn't that good.

Jason Petho


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CS Vietnam

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Post #: 10
RE: Pending Modern Wars Vol. I - 7/16/2009 8:29:59 PM   
dudalb_slith

 

Posts: 168
Joined: 6/20/2002
Status: offline 		I am dissapointed at the way solo gamers are being treated like second class citizens .I might not even buy this game, and stick, with all it's flaws, to DG if only a dozen scenarios are going to be playable solo.
BTW I thought that all scenarios in the Campaign system, even if they were designed primarily for H2H play, could be played with AI, although the AI is weaker then in the scenarios designed for Solo play.

(in reply to Jason Petho)
Post #: 11
RE: Pending Modern Wars Vol. I - 7/16/2009 8:39:44 PM   
Jason Petho


Posts: 15009
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From: Terrace, BC, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dudalb

I am dissapointed at the way solo gamers are being treated like second class citizens .I might not even buy this game, and stick, with all it's flaws, to DG if only a dozen scenarios are going to be playable solo.


There will also be Linked Campaigns available for solo play. I could convert the LCG scenarios for standalone play which would increase the amount of solo scenarios considerably. Keep in mind this is also just the initial release, additional scenarios will be available with future UPDATES.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dudalb
BTW I thought that all scenarios in the Campaign system, even if they were designed primarily for H2H play, could be played with AI, although the AI is weaker then in the scenarios designed for Solo play.


Of course, you can play any scenario versus the computer, no matter what its design intent.

Jason Petho


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Post #: 12
RE: Pending Modern Wars Vol. I - 7/16/2009 8:55:37 PM   
V22 Osprey


Posts: 1593
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From: Corona, CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho


quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey

Damn, was the Original Divided Ground that bad?



Not sure if it was that bad, but it certainly wasn't that good.

Jason Petho



I wonder what went wrong.John Tiller would never design such a bad game.Every game I've played designed by him has always been superb.Something must have went wrong.

(in reply to Jason Petho)
Post #: 13
RE: Pending Modern Wars Vol. I - 7/16/2009 8:59:16 PM   
rich12545

 

Posts: 1705
Joined: 10/31/2000
From: Palouse, WA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho


quote:

ORIGINAL: dudalb

I am dissapointed at the way solo gamers are being treated like second class citizens .I might not even buy this game, and stick, with all it's flaws, to DG if only a dozen scenarios are going to be playable solo.


There will also be Linked Campaigns available for solo play. I could convert the LCG scenarios for standalone play which would increase the amount of solo scenarios considerably. Keep in mind this is also just the initial release, additional scenarios will be available with future UPDATES.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dudalb
BTW I thought that all scenarios in the Campaign system, even if they were designed primarily for H2H play, could be played with AI, although the AI is weaker then in the scenarios designed for Solo play.


Of course, you can play any scenario versus the computer, no matter what its design intent.

Jason Petho



Now that's interesting. So there are no scripts for the ai in solo scenarios? It's just maybe the setup that isn't optimized for solo? How does that work?

And btw, how is the ai opponent in these modern battles compared to the campaign series?

(in reply to Jason Petho)
Post #: 14
RE: Pending Modern Wars Vol. I - 7/16/2009 9:00:34 PM   
Jason Petho


Posts: 15009
Joined: 6/22/2004
From: Terrace, BC, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey

I wonder what went wrong.John Tiller would never design such a bad game.Every game I've played designed by him has always been superb.Something must have went wrong.


Take-two, if I recall correctly, for the quick buck.

Jason Petho

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Post #: 15
RE: Pending Modern Wars Vol. I - 7/16/2009 9:03:50 PM   
Jason Petho


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From: Terrace, BC, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545
Now that's interesting. So there are no scripts for the ai in solo scenarios? It's just maybe the setup that isn't optimized for solo? How does that work?


No. HAL is pretty well Victory Point based with a few tweaks to set how agressive or defensive he is.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545
And btw, how is the ai opponent in these modern battles compared to the campaign series?


HAL is pretty much the same, not pretty, but functional. Major improvements to HAL are coming for the first UPDATE for MW:VI which will hopefully see HAL as a viable opponent. This is an extreme amount of work to code and to test which is why it is being held off until the first UPDATE.

Jason Petho



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Post #: 16
RE: Pending Modern Wars Vol. I - 7/16/2009 9:10:46 PM   
V22 Osprey


Posts: 1593
Joined: 4/8/2008
From: Corona, CA
Status: offline 		I'll be happy to test the new AI improvements.Though, I'm a pretty average player.

I figured in Modern Wars the AI would HAVE to be improved for the new style of warfare.(Helicopters escpially.Who wants to see the AI only using helicopters on road hexes like trucks.)

(in reply to Jason Petho)
Post #: 17
RE: Pending Modern Wars Vol. I - 7/16/2009 9:18:13 PM   
Jason Petho


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From: Terrace, BC, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey
Who wants to see the AI only using helicopters on road hexes like trucks.)


Helicopters move over all terrain types at the same cost, so that isn't an issue. Would be amusing though.

Jason Petho


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Post #: 18
RE: Pending Modern Wars Vol. I - 7/16/2009 9:26:10 PM   
rich12545

 

Posts: 1705
Joined: 10/31/2000
From: Palouse, WA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho


quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545
Now that's interesting. So there are no scripts for the ai in solo scenarios? It's just maybe the setup that isn't optimized for solo? How does that work?


No. HAL is pretty well Victory Point based with a few tweaks to set how agressive or defensive he is.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545
And btw, how is the ai opponent in these modern battles compared to the campaign series?


HAL is pretty much the same, not pretty, but functional. Major improvements to HAL are coming for the first UPDATE for MW:VI which will hopefully see HAL as a viable opponent. This is an extreme amount of work to code and to test which is why it is being held off until the first UPDATE.

Jason Petho




Wow, that seems like a long time from now. VI. We don't even have I yet. End of next year for VI?

And then will these improvements be ported back to the other titles?

(in reply to Jason Petho)
Post #: 19
RE: Pending Modern Wars Vol. I - 7/16/2009 9:29:20 PM   
Jason Petho


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From: Terrace, BC, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545

Wow, that seems like a long time from now. VI. We don't even have I yet. End of next year for VI?


Volume I will be out by the end of 2009. Hopefully the fall, but probably later... maybe for Christmas? I need more hours in a day.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545
And then will these improvements be ported back to the other titles?


Of course!

Jason Petho

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Post #: 20
RE: Pending Modern Wars Vol. I - 7/16/2009 9:50:59 PM   
kool_kat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dudalb

I am dissapointed at the way solo gamers are being treated like second class citizens


Maybe you should try H2H (Human vs. Human) play?

H2H play is MUCH more interesting then playing HAL... and your game play would improve faster playing against human opponents.

Just don't try some of your "successful" tactics utilized against HAL when playing a human opponent - you will be slaughtered!

Been there and done that.

I only play H2H now.

IMHO, H2H is the best way to go in JTCS!

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Post #: 21
RE: Pending Modern Wars Vol. I - 7/16/2009 10:02:41 PM   
berto


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho
There will also be Linked Campaigns available for solo play. I could convert the LCG scenarios for standalone play which would increase the amount of solo scenarios considerably.


Please do so! The more the merrier!

I, too, only play against the AI, else hot-seat solitaire.

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Post #: 22
RE: Pending Modern Wars Vol. I - 7/16/2009 10:04:05 PM   
Jason Petho


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quote:

ORIGINAL: berto

Please do so! The more the merrier!

I, too, only play against the AI, else hot-seat solitaire.


Then it shall be done!

Jason Petho


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Post #: 23
RE: Pending Modern Wars Vol. I - 7/16/2009 10:19:41 PM   
rich12545

 

Posts: 1705
Joined: 10/31/2000
From: Palouse, WA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho


quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545

Wow, that seems like a long time from now. VI. We don't even have I yet. End of next year for VI?


Volume I will be out by the end of 2009. Hopefully the fall, but probably later... maybe for Christmas? I need more hours in a day.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545
And then will these improvements be ported back to the other titles?


Of course!

Jason Petho


Volume I? What about VI (6)? Are you saying the ai improvements will be in volume 1 and not 6 and will be out, probably, by New Year?

Maybe we should avoid confusion and not use roman numerals.

(in reply to Jason Petho)
Post #: 24
RE: Pending Modern Wars Vol. I - 7/16/2009 10:28:33 PM   
Jason Petho


Posts: 15009
Joined: 6/22/2004
From: Terrace, BC, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545


Volume I? What about VI (6)?

Sorry, thought you were referring to MW:VI (Modern Wars:Volume I)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545
Are you saying the ai improvements will be in volume 1 and not 6 and will be out, probably, by New Year?


AI improvements will be available for the first UPDATE for Volume I, the 1.01 UPDATE (as the initial release will be called 1.00)

Mid-late 2010 is the planned release for the Modern Wars: Volume I 1.01 UPDATE.

Jason Petho


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Post #: 25
RE: Pending Modern Wars Vol. I - 7/16/2009 10:45:37 PM   
rich12545

 

Posts: 1705
Joined: 10/31/2000
From: Palouse, WA
Status: offline 		Ok, now I get it.  Looks good.


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Post #: 26
RE: Pending Modern Wars Vol. I - 7/16/2009 10:54:47 PM   
dudalb_slith

 

Posts: 168
Joined: 6/20/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho


quote:

ORIGINAL: dudalb

I am dissapointed at the way solo gamers are being treated like second class citizens .I might not even buy this game, and stick, with all it's flaws, to DG if only a dozen scenarios are going to be playable solo.


There will also be Linked Campaigns available for solo play. I could convert the LCG scenarios for standalone play which would increase the amount of solo scenarios considerably. Keep in mind this is also just the initial release, additional scenarios will be available with future UPDATES.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dudalb
BTW I thought that all scenarios in the Campaign system, even if they were designed primarily for H2H play, could be played with AI, although the AI is weaker then in the scenarios designed for Solo play.


Of course, you can play any scenario versus the computer, no matter what its design intent.

Jason Petho



OK, I take back what I said if all scenarios are playable agaisnt the AI.. If you adjust the difficulty slide, a lot games meant to be H2H can be good as a solataire game.

(in reply to Jason Petho)
Post #: 27
RE: Pending Modern Wars Vol. I - 7/16/2009 11:07:51 PM   
dudalb_slith

 

Posts: 168
Joined: 6/20/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho


quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey

Damn, was the Original Divided Ground that bad?



Not sure if it was that bad, but it certainly wasn't that good.

Jason Petho



I wonder what went wrong.John Tiller would never design such a bad game.Every game I've played designed by him has always been superb.Something must have went wrong.


Because Tiller did not design Divided Ground The game uses his Campaign engine. He had no input into the scenarious, Campaign, OB design or anything else.

Basically Take Two bought out Talonsoft and Tiller and the rest of the original Talonsoft design crew quit when they found out Take Two intended to basically gut the wargame operation and turn it into a US dumping ground for European designs of questionable quality..mainly a bunch of poorly thought out Fantasy games. (I have nothing against Fantasy Games whatsoever...Warcraft II and III are among my all time favorite games..but the desing that Talonsoft put out after the Take Two takeover were just plain bad games).
As .I guess, an attempt to throw a bone to the Talonsoft wargamers, TT did bring out Divided Ground, which had been previously announced, but with a new design crew that basically did a poor job on it. Tiller had nothing to do with the design of DG..the company just used his engine.
The sad history of Talonsoft and what Take Two did to it is pretty well known. It's not a pretty story.

(in reply to V22 Osprey)
Post #: 28
RE: Pending Modern Wars Vol. I - 7/16/2009 11:27:40 PM   
V22 Osprey


Posts: 1593
Joined: 4/8/2008
From: Corona, CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dudalb


quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho


quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey

Damn, was the Original Divided Ground that bad?



Not sure if it was that bad, but it certainly wasn't that good.

Jason Petho



I wonder what went wrong.John Tiller would never design such a bad game.Every game I've played designed by him has always been superb.Something must have went wrong.


Because Tiller did not design Divided Ground The game uses his Campaign engine. He had no input into the scenarious, Campaign, OB design or anything else.

Basically Take Two bought out Talonsoft and Tiller and the rest of the original Talonsoft design crew quit when they found out Take Two intended to basically gut the wargame operation and turn it into a US dumping ground for European designs of questionable quality..mainly a bunch of poorly thought out Fantasy games. (I have nothing against Fantasy Games whatsoever...Warcraft II and III are among my all time favorite games..but the desing that Talonsoft put out after the Take Two takeover were just plain bad games).
As .I guess, an attempt to throw a bone to the Talonsoft wargamers, TT did bring out Divided Ground, which had been previously announced, but with a new design crew that basically did a poor job on it. Tiller had nothing to do with the design of DG..the company just used his engine.
The sad history of Talonsoft and what Take Two did to it is pretty well known. It's not a pretty story.



How sad.Atleast John Tiller found HPS so he could continue his great work.From what it sounds like, Divided Ground isn't a Tiller game in-any way.

I knew it, I knew there was no way John Tiller would design such a monstrosity.Divided Ground isn't even worthy to use a John Tiller engine.Thank you Jason and the rest of the team for redeeming the worthiness of this game.

(in reply to dudalb_slith)
Post #: 29
RE: Pending Modern Wars Vol. I - 7/17/2009 12:08:44 AM   
TAIL GUNNER

 

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From: Los Osos, CA
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quote:

AI improvements will be available for the first UPDATE for Volume I, the 1.01 UPDATE (as the initial release will be called 1.00)


Will these AI improvements be retrofitted into JTCS?


And what LCGs can we look forward to in MW:Volume I?

ChadG

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(in reply to Jason Petho)
Post #: 30
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