MANUAL Question- Jap Sub Doctrine Option

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MANUAL Question- Jap Sub Doctrine Option - 7/18/2009 8:51:39 PM

romanovich

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Sorry, haven't been on here for a long time; this might have been discussed in great length but my quick search just now didn't turn up anything. So here goes: in WITP you had the Jap Sub Doctrine On/Off toggle button. The AE manual doesn't provide that option anymore. Is the Jap Sub Doctrine fixed in AE then? No way to change the historically accurate, but rather annoying (for the Jap player) Jap Sub strategy?

Thanks for some background on that issue!

Post #: 1

RE: MANUAL Question- Jap Sub Doctrine Option - 7/18/2009 9:15:43 PM

romanovich

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Section 6.2.12 SUBMARINES says "For greater realism, Japanes subs can be set to use the Japanese Sub Doctrine (see section 2.4.1 Japanese Sub Doctrine). But Section 2.4.1 of the manual is titled FOG OF WAR and the screenshot of the REALISM OPTIONS doesn't show the Sub Doctrine option. A word match search of the manual turns up no other mention of 'Japanese Sub Doctrine' other than that reference in 6.2.12. So I guess it's gone. But what does that mean for the Jap player. Stuck with the historical setting?

(in reply to romanovich)

Post #: 2

RE: MANUAL Question- Jap Sub Doctrine Option - 7/18/2009 9:44:53 PM

Don Bowen

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Not actually sure. I think both allied and japanese sub doctrines were removed as options and made historical. These decisions were made by more important folks than I. Looks like a back reference was overlooked in the manual.

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Post #: 3

RE: MANUAL Question- Jap Sub Doctrine Option - 7/18/2009 10:01:19 PM

romanovich

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That's really rather unfortunate. I realize the decision might have been made in order to prevent having to re-do the REALISM OPTIONS screen (there are only so many toggles you can fit on the WITP screen w/o having to make a new one for AE), but I'd think the ADVANCED WEATHER EFFECTS option is one that should have been sacrificed rather than the JAP SUB DOCTRINE option. I mean, who will play AE w/ advanced wx off? Whoever plays AE will have advanced wx on. Come on! There will be lots of Jap players though who would've loved to have the freedom to come up with their own sub doctrine. I for one know having to suffer through the historical setting will drive me nutty when playing the Japs...

Or were the harsh effects of the historical Jap Sub Doc setting modified and made more mild in the new AE default mode?

(in reply to Don Bowen)

Post #: 4

RE: MANUAL Question- Jap Sub Doctrine Option - 7/18/2009 10:08:27 PM

treespider

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From experience if you want to wage economic warfare on the Allies Japanese subs will certainly sink merchant ships to your hearts content...especially if unescorted.

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Post #: 5

RE: MANUAL Question- Jap Sub Doctrine Option - 7/18/2009 10:12:46 PM

romanovich

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Good to know. Thanks.

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RE: MANUAL Question- Jap Sub Doctrine Option - 7/18/2009 10:56:04 PM

jwilkerson

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Historically all the major submarine powers had pre-war plans not to attack merchant ships - historically all abandoned that idea during the war.

The Japanese submarines sank 50+ ships in the first six months of the war - I haven't tried to do that in AE but it is tough in stock, even if your opponent helps (by not escorting his convoys). Oh and that was with submarine doctrine "off".

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Post #: 7

RE: MANUAL Question- Jap Sub Doctrine Option - 7/18/2009 11:30:31 PM

romanovich

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Well, yeah! It was hard even with sub doctrine "off". With sub doctrine "on", it was really not much fun at all in WITP. It was impossible to sink ANYTHING. It was good in my mind to give the Jap player the option to change a strategy that was obviously NOT working very well...
Your answer makes the issue a bit more ambigous again. Based on what treespider wrote, he was able to sink some merchant ships. Based on what you are saying, with Jap Sub Doc now a default "on", I'm not sure how to read treespiders response. Did he get lucky, did he sink some merchants by 'accident' under the "on" default policy (and the Allied sink 10x more during a comparable time frame because they are not subject to any doc?), or what does it mean?

Have Jap Sub Ops been changed, or is the WITP "on" option now simply default? In that case the Jap player would probably do best to cancel his sub building program outright and shift the shipbuilding points to other classes. That's a very unfortunate consequence of taking away the Jap Sub Doc "on"/"off" option - it doesn't help make the game more realistic. The distortion just shifts to another dimension. Knowing that subs won't work, you're just not going to build subs as Jap.

An option would have just been so much more fun.

(in reply to jwilkerson)

Post #: 8

RE: MANUAL Question- Jap Sub Doctrine Option - 7/18/2009 11:40:49 PM

stuman

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Hmm, I wonder why the option was removed.

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Post #: 9

RE: MANUAL Question- Jap Sub Doctrine Option - 7/19/2009 12:12:29 AM

jwilkerson

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We felt most games were not using it - so went for different options we thought might be used by some and not by others.

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Post #: 10

RE: MANUAL Question- Jap Sub Doctrine Option - 7/19/2009 12:24:27 AM

stuman

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Good, to the point answer. Thx. Actually I have found that with the historical option on ( that is Japan used their historical doctrine ) , I still hit decent numbers of Allied shipping if I put them in the right spot. I had always just assumed that it did not really make too much difference.

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Post #: 11

RE: MANUAL Question- Jap Sub Doctrine Option - 7/19/2009 1:24:42 AM

greg_slith

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It's odd that they would take this away yet figure adding a toggle for Dud US torps made sense. I'm really looking forward to AE but this has me scratching my head. Even as an Allied fan boy (which I am) who would want to screw with history that bad?

The whole torpedo scandal always makes me wonder why some of theguys in BeauOrd weren't shot.

(in reply to stuman)

Post #: 12

RE: MANUAL Question- Jap Sub Doctrine Option - 7/19/2009 1:27:26 AM

rockmedic109

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ecwgcx

It's odd that they would take this away yet figure adding a toggle for Dud US torps made sense. I'm really looking forward to AE but this has me scratching my head. Even as an Allied fan boy (which I am) who would want to screw with history that bad? The whole torpedo scandal always makes me wonder why some of theguys in BeauOrd weren't shot.

They tried to shoot them. But the torpedoes they fired at them didn't work...............

(in reply to greg_slith)

Post #: 13

RE: MANUAL Question- Jap Sub Doctrine Option - 7/19/2009 1:40:09 AM

greg_slith

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When my early war subs manage to get a shot off (and especially when it's against a large man-o-war) and I see "Torp failed to explode" or whatever it says I can channel some of those sub drivers and truely feel their frustration. Or swear at the top of my lungs. Mostly the latter

. But, and I think this is important, it really seems acurate. It WAS a real problem. The stones on those guys going into harms way with weapons that didn't work seems amazing to me. Doctrin, schmoctrin, don't screw with reality. I know, I know: If I don't like it, don't use it.

I guess I'm just curious about who asked for it and why.

(in reply to rockmedic109)

Post #: 14

RE: MANUAL Question- Jap Sub Doctrine Option - 7/19/2009 1:41:09 AM

Erik Rutins

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Keep in mind that with patrol zones, subs from both sides can be more effective if properly setup.

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Post #: 15

RE: MANUAL Question- Jap Sub Doctrine Option - 7/19/2009 2:00:31 AM

greg_slith

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Erik,
The patrol zones, meet TF, amd way points are (for me) the number one reason why I'm gonna get AE. After a quick read of the manual there really dosen't seem to be a lot I'll need to re-learn. With the exception of transporting LCU's. And ground combat. Oh, and withdraw dates for everything. come to think of it there may be a lot to learn

.

Speaking od withdrawl dates for LCU's and A/C, do they need to go someplace special to be withdrawn like ships?

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Post #: 16

RE: MANUAL Question- Jap Sub Doctrine Option - 7/19/2009 2:45:05 AM

tigercub

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1. The Trops if i was command at least one of them would been shot, many good men died, Sub doctrine for the Japs I would have it so it could be switched on and off during the game,then make a deal with the allied player at some point in the campaign ( say in 1942) it could be turn off.
(but in my world i can have anything)

ok i finnished the Manual whats next.

Tiger!

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Post #: 17

RE: MANUAL Question- Jap Sub Doctrine Option - 7/19/2009 2:55:28 AM

jwilkerson

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Essentially it can be turned on and off by the Japanese player - depending on how he uses his submarines - so your idea would work if the players negotiated certain behavior restrictions.

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Post #: 18

RE: MANUAL Question- Jap Sub Doctrine Option - 7/19/2009 5:37:24 AM

Ron Saueracker

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Always wanted the ability to set parameters within HQs...ie, the HQ for Freemantle based boats had settings for doctrine, tactics, target priorities, etc. Base HQs could have target priorities, defensive and offensive postures, alert status etc. Just babbling of course.

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Post #: 19

RE: MANUAL Question- Jap Sub Doctrine Option - 7/19/2009 5:54:53 AM

Don Bowen

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Some options were removed, some were added. Not everyone agrees with the additions and removals, but that was the decision and that's the way it is.

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Post #: 20

RE: MANUAL Question- Jap Sub Doctrine Option - 7/19/2009 6:16:55 AM

jwilkerson

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I don't think everyone agrees with anything - but someone agrees with each thing.

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Post #: 21

RE: MANUAL Question- Jap Sub Doctrine Option - 7/19/2009 7:12:12 AM

Shark7

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So the real question is this:

Is the AE Japanese sub fleet going to act as if the doctrine is on or off?

If it is on, I am going to be very dissapointed, as I have never played a game with either sub doctrine in Vanilla WiTP turned on. I think most other games have it set to off as well, giving the flexibility of using the subs in the manner the players choose (which is only right TBH).

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Post #: 22

RE: MANUAL Question- Jap Sub Doctrine Option - 7/19/2009 8:44:56 AM

jimh009

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

So the real question is this:

Is the AE Japanese sub fleet going to act as if the doctrine is on or off?

My question too...this thread just confused me more!

(in reply to Shark7)

Post #: 23

RE: MANUAL Question- Jap Sub Doctrine Option - 7/19/2009 8:45:00 AM

romanovich

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I second that!

< Message edited by romanovich -- 7/19/2009 6:01:16 PM >

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Post #: 24

RE: MANUAL Question- Jap Sub Doctrine Option - 7/19/2009 8:51:08 AM

jrcar

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Here are the last 2of days early war for the Jap subs in a current version of AE I'm playeing PBEM.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Dec 13, 41
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submarine under attack near Peleliu at 88,99

Japanese Ships
xAK Shinkoku Maru

Allied Ships
SS S-41

SS S-41 is sighted by xAK Shinkoku Maru
SS S-41 launches 4 torpedoes at xAK Shinkoku Maru

Submarine under attack near Balikpapan at 66,98

Japanese Ships
SS I-122

Allied Ships
xAKL Corregidor, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage

SS I-122 is sighted by xAKL Corregidor
SS I-122 launches 4 torpedoes at xAKL Corregidor

Submarine under attack near San Clemente Island at 225,79

Japanese Ships
SS I-26

Allied Ships
AK Arcturus, Torpedo hits 1, on fire

Allied ground losses:
4 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

SS I-26 is sighted by AK Arcturus
SS I-26 launches 6 torpedoes at AK Arcturus

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submarine under attack near San Clemente Island at 225,79

Japanese Ships
SS I-26

Allied Ships
xAP Lurline

SS I-26 is sighted by xAP Lurline
SS I-26 launches 6 torpedoes at xAP Lurline

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Dec 12, 41
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submarine under attack near Billiton at 53,92

Japanese Ships
SS I-166

Allied Ships
TK Pleiodon, Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage

SS I-166 is sighted by TK Pleiodon
SS I-166 attacking on the surface

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submarine under attack near Busuanga at 76,79

Japanese Ships
SS I-124

Allied Ships
xAKL Halldor, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage

SS I-124 is sighted by xAKL Halldor
SS I-124 launches 4 torpedoes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submarine under attack near Balikpapan at 65,98

Japanese Ships
SS I-122

Allied Ships
xAK Tantalus

SS I-122 is sighted by xAK Tantalus
SS I-122 launches 4 torpedoes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submarine under attack near Peleliu at 86,99

Japanese Ships
xAKL Ujigawa Maru, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

Allied Ships
SS S-41

SS S-41 is sighted by xAKL Ujigawa Maru
SS S-41 launches 4 torpedoes at xAKL Ujigawa Maru

Cheers

Rob

(in reply to Shark7)

Post #: 25

RE: MANUAL Question- Jap Sub Doctrine Option - 7/19/2009 8:53:36 AM

jrcar

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So no problem with the Jap subs attacking merchantmen!

Cheers

Rob

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Post #: 26

RE: MANUAL Question- Jap Sub Doctrine Option - 7/19/2009 12:57:09 PM

Nomad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: romanovich

I second that!

But, I guess it's a done deal. Jap Sub Doctrine is "on" as default. The best your subs can hope for is for a BB to come their way - and then not get sunk by one of the twenty DDs guarding that one...

Too bad. Build DDs instead of subs as Jap. That's how AE needs to be played, I guess.

Just for the heck of it, maybe you might want to actually buy the game and play it before you overly criticize it?

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Post #: 27

RE: MANUAL Question- Jap Sub Doctrine Option - 7/19/2009 1:53:35 PM

castor troy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jrcar

Here are the last 2of days early war for the Jap subs in a current version of AE I'm playeing PBEM.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Dec 13, 41
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submarine under attack near Peleliu at 88,99

Japanese Ships
xAK Shinkoku Maru

Allied Ships
SS S-41

SS S-41 is sighted by xAK Shinkoku Maru
SS S-41 launches 4 torpedoes at xAK Shinkoku Maru

Submarine under attack near Balikpapan at 66,98

Japanese Ships
SS I-122

Allied Ships
xAKL Corregidor, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage

SS I-122 is sighted by xAKL Corregidor
SS I-122 launches 4 torpedoes at xAKL Corregidor

Submarine under attack near San Clemente Island at 225,79

Japanese Ships
SS I-26

Allied Ships
AK Arcturus, Torpedo hits 1, on fire

Allied ground losses:
4 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

SS I-26 is sighted by AK Arcturus
SS I-26 launches 6 torpedoes at AK Arcturus

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submarine under attack near San Clemente Island at 225,79

Japanese Ships
SS I-26

Allied Ships
xAP Lurline

SS I-26 is sighted by xAP Lurline
SS I-26 launches 6 torpedoes at xAP Lurline

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Dec 12, 41
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submarine under attack near Billiton at 53,92

Japanese Ships
SS I-166

Allied Ships
TK Pleiodon, Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage

SS I-166 is sighted by TK Pleiodon
SS I-166 attacking on the surface

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submarine under attack near Busuanga at 76,79

Japanese Ships
SS I-124

Allied Ships
xAKL Halldor, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage

SS I-124 is sighted by xAKL Halldor
SS I-124 launches 4 torpedoes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submarine under attack near Balikpapan at 65,98

Japanese Ships
SS I-122

Allied Ships
xAK Tantalus

SS I-122 is sighted by xAK Tantalus
SS I-122 launches 4 torpedoes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submarine under attack near Peleliu at 86,99

Japanese Ships
xAKL Ujigawa Maru, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

Allied Ships
SS S-41

SS S-41 is sighted by xAKL Ujigawa Maru
SS S-41 launches 4 torpedoes at xAKL Ujigawa Maru

Cheers

Rob

Is there a reason why all the attacked ships spot the sub first when usually attacked ships didn�t even know they were attacked until they saw the torps or the detonations?

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Post #: 28

RE: MANUAL Question- Jap Sub Doctrine Option - 7/19/2009 2:25:18 PM

Don Bowen

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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: jrcar

Here are the last 2of days early war for the Jap subs in a current version of AE I'm playeing PBEM.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Dec 13, 41
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submarine under attack near Peleliu at 88,99

Japanese Ships
xAK Shinkoku Maru

Allied Ships
SS S-41

SS S-41 is sighted by xAK Shinkoku Maru
SS S-41 launches 4 torpedoes at xAK Shinkoku Maru

Submarine under attack near Balikpapan at 66,98

Japanese Ships
SS I-122

Allied Ships
xAKL Corregidor, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage

SS I-122 is sighted by xAKL Corregidor
SS I-122 launches 4 torpedoes at xAKL Corregidor

Submarine under attack near San Clemente Island at 225,79

Japanese Ships
SS I-26

Allied Ships
AK Arcturus, Torpedo hits 1, on fire

Allied ground losses:
4 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

SS I-26 is sighted by AK Arcturus
SS I-26 launches 6 torpedoes at AK Arcturus

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submarine under attack near San Clemente Island at 225,79

Japanese Ships
SS I-26

Allied Ships
xAP Lurline

SS I-26 is sighted by xAP Lurline
SS I-26 launches 6 torpedoes at xAP Lurline

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Dec 12, 41
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submarine under attack near Billiton at 53,92

Japanese Ships
SS I-166

Allied Ships
TK Pleiodon, Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage

SS I-166 is sighted by TK Pleiodon
SS I-166 attacking on the surface

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submarine under attack near Busuanga at 76,79

Japanese Ships
SS I-124

Allied Ships
xAKL Halldor, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage

SS I-124 is sighted by xAKL Halldor
SS I-124 launches 4 torpedoes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submarine under attack near Balikpapan at 65,98

Japanese Ships
SS I-122

Allied Ships
xAK Tantalus

SS I-122 is sighted by xAK Tantalus
SS I-122 launches 4 torpedoes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submarine under attack near Peleliu at 86,99

Japanese Ships
xAKL Ujigawa Maru, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

Allied Ships
SS S-41

SS S-41 is sighted by xAKL Ujigawa Maru
SS S-41 launches 4 torpedoes at xAKL Ujigawa Maru

Cheers

Rob

Is there a reason why all the attacked ships spot the sub first when usually attacked ships didn�t even know they were attacked until they saw the torps or the detonations?

Spotting the sub has little to do with combat if there are no escorts. Still, the sub can be spotted prior to attack. The message indicating the sub is under attack appears to be wrong. Looking at it.

(in reply to castor troy)

Post #: 29

RE: MANUAL Question- Jap Sub Doctrine Option - 7/19/2009 3:24:26 PM

CaptDave

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From: Federal Way, WA
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Looks like the main question has been answered, which pleases me as it was one of mine, as well. I'm very glad, though, to see that the number of torpedoes fired is included now in the combat reports -- I can quit worrying about having to watch the combat animations to get that information!

(in reply to Don Bowen)

Post #: 30