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RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land

 
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RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/9/2009 9:06:32 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hdosbe

Dear Shannon,

I understand that it's not your match, and excuse me but I think that we must try to adjust some problem before the game will be ready.

I've written to ADG my doubts and remarks.

Ciao

Mino

Harry and ADG have done an extremely researched work to find out the numbers for each counter. I'm sure there is an explanation for each counter. I will be interested in Harry's answer.

(in reply to hdosbe)
Post #: 1141
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/9/2009 10:08:52 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Please see below two Transport Counters, one German and one American. Any help anyone cares to give me on these counters would be gratefully received, even if its just ideas and names for candidates.

[4243 Transport - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Name: USS Neosho
.B Engine(s) output: 30,400 hp
.B Top Speed: 18 knots
.B Main armament: 4 x 5-inch (137mm), 4 x 20mm guns
.B Displacement (full load): 24,830 tons
.B Thickest armour: Not Applicable
.P World in Flames uses two main types of naval transport counter: Transport
(TRS) and Amphibious (AMPH). The use of these counters depends to an extent on
what optional rules are being used. However, as a general rule, TRS represent
the types of ship that were used to transport men and material from one friendly
port to another, while AMPH represent the specialised shipping that could land
men and material on a hostile shore.
.P TRS not only include troopships but also other vessels that kept the troops
fighting overseas supplied. These vessels include tankers, munitions ships and
other cargo carrying vessels. In addition, and particularly important in the
Pacific War, were the supply ships to the fleet. These write-ups outline a few
of the these vessels that were so vital to ensuring a successful outcome to the
Second World War.
.P This write-up looks at one of the fleet tankers employed by the United States
Navy (USN).
.P The USS Neosho was one of thirty ships in the Cimarron-class that were built
for the USN just before and all through the Second World War. A further four
vessels were converted to escort carriers prior to completion. In August 1939,
Neosho became the second of the class to be commissioned and she was to be the
only ship lost. Although brief, her war career was certainly eventful.
.P During the summer of 1941, she was used to transport aviation fuel from the
US west coast to the Pacific Fleet base at Pearl Harbor. She completed one such
operation at the beginning of December, and as a result was at Pearl Harbor,
about to unload her cargo when Japanese aircraft attacked on the morning of 7th
December 1941 (see USS Arizona). Neosho was one of the first ships to open fire
on the Japanese after the attack began. One of the most miraculous escapes for
the USN that morning was that Neosho avoided being hit while being steered away
from Battleship Row, where she had been at the start of the attack.
.P After her lucky escape at Pearl she continued in the same role; delivering
fuel to the USN carriers, but her career was soon to come to an abrupt end. In
May 1942, the battle that became known as the Battle of the Coral Sea was fought
(see USS Lexington). After refuelling the carrier Yorktown on the 6th May 1942,
Neosho and the destroyer Sims were ordered to detach from the fleet and wait at
a pre-agreed point for further replenishment as and when required; neither ship
was to survive.
.P At 1000hrs on the 7th May, aircraft from the Japanese carriers Shokaku and
Zuikaku that were looking for the US carriers, came across the two ships. Sims
was sunk quickly but excellent work by her crew meant that Neosho was able to
remain afloat despite significant damage. However, four days later, with no
realistic hope of getting her back to port, Neosho was sunk and her surviving
crew picked up by a US destroyer.


[4821 Transport - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Name: MV Wilhelm Gustloff
.B Engine(s) output: 9,500 hp
.B Top Speed: 18 knots
.B Main armament: Unknown
.B Gross Tonnage: 25,484 tons
.B Thickest armour: Not Applicable
.P World in Flames uses two main types of naval transport counter: Transport
(TRS) and Amphibious (AMPH). The use of these counters depends to an extent on
what optional rules are being used. However, as a general rule, TRS represent
the types of ship that were used to transport men and material from one friendly
port to another, while AMPH represent the specialised shipping that could land
men and material on a hostile shore.
.P TRS not only include troop ships but also other vessels that kept the troops
fighting overseas supplied. These vessels include tankers, munitions ships and
other cargo carrying vessels. These write-ups outline a few of these vessels.
.P The MV Wilhelm Gustloff (Gustloff) began life as a passenger ship, built in
1937 for the KDF, a Nazi organisation. She was named after the German leader of
the Swiss Nazi party, who had been assassinated in 1936.
.P Gustloff was requisitioned by the Kriegsmarine upon the outbreak of war with
Poland on the 1st September 1939. Her initial role was that of a hospital ship
and she was deployed in this role until November 1940. However, she had been
used by the German military before the war, when she helped bring some of the
Luftwaffe`s Condor Legion back from Spain at the conclusion of the Spanish civil
war. While serving as a hospital ship, Gustloff brought wounded troops back to
Germany from Norway.
.P In November 1940 she became a home for U-boat trainees at Gdynia, having been
converted to a floating barracks. She spent the majority of the war in this role
but was released in order to take part in an evacuation mission.
.P Gustloff met a tragic end while engaged in Operation Hannibal in January
1945. Hannibal was an operation designed to evacuate civilians and some military
personnel who found themselves surrounded by the advancing Red Army in East
Prussia. Gustloff embarked her passengers from Gotenhafen.
.P On the return leg of the operation at around 2100hrs on the 30th January
1945, Gustloff was hit by three torpedoes from the Soviet submarine S-13. She
sank in less than an hour. She had a torpedo boat, the Lowe, as an escort and
Lowe took as many survivors from the water as she could carry. However, the
temperature of the water and the fact that the attack took place at night, with
all the chaos and confusion that causes, meant that there were perhaps less
people to pick up than would otherwise have been the case. Other vessels rushed
to the scene, picking up further survivors.
.P The number killed will never be known but it is estimated that between 5,500
and 9,400 people died that night. Because of the chaotic circumstances of her
departure, when people were desperate to get away from the advancing Soviet
Army, there is simply no way of knowing exactly who was on-board, or even who
survived but subsequently died as the Third Reich disintegrated in the last
months of the war. It is almost certain though that Gustloff provides the most
costly single sinking in terms of lives lost, in maritime history.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1142
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/10/2009 8:46:59 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Please see attached the next USN example (this time a battleship write-up). This is the USS Arizona and contaiins details of the attack on Pearl Harbor.

[4071 Arizona - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine(s) output: 33,375 hp
.B Top Speed: 21 knots
.B Main armament: 12 x 14-inch (356mm), 20 x 5-inch (137mm) guns
.B Displacement (full load): 35,929 tons
.B Thickest armour: 14-inch (belt)
.P The Pennsylvania`s were a two-ship class of battleship dating from the
First World War. In company with other US battleship classes from that era, they
were essentially reconstructed during the inter-war years to rectify their main
deficiencies; lack of underwater protection and a lack of main armament
elevation.
.P Their modernisation took place at the start of the thirties and the technical
data above reflects their status post this work. Their main armament remained
the same, but was improved so that the guns could elevate to thirty degrees. Six
of the original twenty-two five-inch secondary guns had been removed after World
War One and now a further four guns were removed, with the remaining weapons
being refitted higher up to avoid operational problems in high seas. An
additional eight five-inch anti-aircraft (AA) guns were also fitted.
.P Their machinery was given a thorough overhaul and new boilers added, although
they remained slow when compared to modern battleships. Armour was added to
provide better protection against torpedoes and shell fire.
.P Visual changes included the replacement of the existing masts with a tripod
arrangement.
.P Arizona was commissioned in October 1916 and at the outbreak of war with
Japan in December 1941, she was based at Pearl Harbor; sadly her war was to last
just one day.
.P President Roosevelt gave the order to move the Pacific Fleet from the US west
coast to Pearl Harbor in the Hawaiian Islands in spring 1940. The order had been
given in response to growing anxieties about Japanese intentions, and was
calculated to send a signal to Tokyo that the US were not prepared to sit back
while the Japanese did as they pleased in China.
.P The Commander in Chief of the Japanese Combined Fleet was Admiral Isoroku
Yamamoto. He was tasked with coming up with a plan for war with the United
States. He knew that American industrial might would make it difficult for a
country like Japan, with its lack of natural resources, to win a long war. If war
had to come, then the only option was to strike first and strike hard and in
doing so, hope that the Americans would want to quickly sue for peace. The plan
that he designed, called for an attack on the Pacific Fleet within minutes of a
declaration of war. The attack would come from aircraft of the elite 1st Air
Fleet and, if surprise could be achieved, would lead to the destruction of the
American battleships and carriers.
.P Pearl Harbor was designed as the first of three distinct phases. Having
destroyed the American Fleet, the Japanese would then create a perimeter around
Japan, by invading to the west as far as India, to the east as far as Midway,
and to the south as far as New Guinea and the Solomons. All territories and
islands within that perimeter would be conquered under the plan, including the
Philippines, the Dutch East Indies, Malaya and a host of Pacific island chains.
The third phase would be to build up sufficiently strong defences all along the
perimeter, that the Allied forces would not be able to break back-in and would
have to sue for peace.
.P The attack was entrusted to Admiral Nagumo, a cautious individual who did not
have a background in carrier warfare. His forces were made up as follows: the
1st Air Fleet that contained the fleet carriers Akagi (Nagumo`s Flagship), Kaga,
Soryu, Hiryu, Zuikaku and Shokaku, two battleships Hiei and Kirishima, two heavy
cruisers Chikuma and Tone and accompanying destroyers. There was also a heavy
submarine force and two supply columns, although the Japanese submarines proved
entirely ineffectual. Nagumo`s force left Japanese waters on the 26th November
1941 and headed east under strict radio silence.
.P Meanwhile, in Pearl Harbor, the Americans went about their business as usual.
In the middle of the harbour area was Ford Island, a rectangle of land about
2,000 metres by 1,000 metres. This island had plenty of space for ships to anchor
around including, in the north-east corner, battleship row, which, as the name
suggests, is where the battleships of the Pacific Fleet were normally anchored.
The attack was planned for a Sunday morning, when the US forces were expected to
be at their least prepared. Luckily for the US Navy, the carriers Lexington,
Enterprise and Saratoga would all be away from Pearl Harbor on the date of the
attack; 7th December. This was not true of the battleships however, and they
would be at anchor on that sunny December morning, lined up on battleship row.
Running roughly west to east and in pairs side by side were Maryland and
Oklahoma, then Tennessee and West Virginia, then Arizona alongside the repair
ship Vestal and finally Nevada on her own. California and Pennsylvania were
located away from Battleship row, the former about 500 metres to the south-east
and the later in drydock no.3. For reasons beyond the scope of this write-up,
the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor before a declaration of war had been
delivered to the Americans.
.P The Japanese plan called for aircraft of the 1st Air Fleet to launch three
waves of attacks. There were a number of aircraft types employed, the most
important of which were the Aichi "Val" dive bomber, the Nakajima "Kate" torpedo
bomber and the Misubishi "Zero" fighter. At 0530hrs the first wave of one hundred
and eighty-three aircraft took off. They were picked up by US radar at just after
0700hrs, but were mistaken for US B.17`s that were due to arrive in HaWaii later
that day.
.P Just before 0800hrs the Japanese aircraft went into the attack. In addition
to the ships at Pearl, the airfields at Kaneohe and Wheeler Field were attacked
as were the aircraft on Ford Island. Amongst the first ships hit were the
Pennsylvania, the target ship Utah and the cruiser Raleigh. They were followed
by the cruiser Helena and the minelayer Oglala. By now the warships were a mass
of men moving as quickly as they could to action stations to begin firing back
at the enemy. A torpedo bound for Vestal then went underneath the repair ship
and struck the Arizona lying alongside. Just a couple of minutes later, a bomb
penetrated one of the battleship`s magazines. With this, Arizona exploded and
then began to sink. Then, three torpedoes found Oklahoma in quick succession,
causing her to roll-over and a fourth caused her to capsize. With everything
happening quickly, Arizona was found by another bomb and a second magazine
exploded. Perhaps one of the luckiest breaks the Americans received was that the
tanker Neosho, full of aviation fuel and moored on battleship row at the start of
the attack, was not hit (see Transport Counter 4243).
.P Meanwhile, Nevada had been hit by a torpedo and was beginning to list when
her captain ordered her to get underway. Fuel oil from the stricken Arizona had
ignited and was heading toward her. Later that morning, While slowly heading for
the harbour`s only outlet to the sea, Nevada was pounded with bombs and was in
danger of sinking. Quickly realising that if Nevada sank in the channel, the
harbour would be blocked and out of action, her captain purposely beached her.
While all this was going on, California and West Virginia had both taken further
punishment, the WeeVee, receiving two bombs and six torpedoes. Tennessee and
Maryland were also hit.
.P Much of the devastation described above had been caused in just a few minutes
by aircraft of the first wave and the second wave followed close on its heels.
Like the first, this second attack struck against the airfields around Pearl
Harbor as well as inflicting more misery on the once proud battlefleet. As she
was in drydock, Pennsylavania had been partially protected from the bombs and
torpedoes and as a result took only one bomb hit. However a near miss struck the
destroyer Shaw, taking the smaller ship`s bow off.
.P Nagumo was urged by his returning pilots of the first wave to launch the
planned third wave. However, the cautious Vice-Admiral, perhaps influenced by the
exaggerated claims of the pilots who indicated their work was done, decided that
it would be too great a risk to return to Pearl Harbor again, especially given
that they did not know where the American carriers were.
.P The Japanese withdrew, leaving behind many burning and sinking ships of the
US battlefleet. Arizona would never be re-floated, Oklahoma was not to return to
action and all other battleships had taken at least one bomb or torpedo and
would require substantial repairs. There was widespread damage to cruisers,
destroyers and other shipping.
.P The Americans had lost around 2,400 military and civilian lives during the
attack. Most of these came from the Arizona and over three hundred aircraft were
destroyed or damaged. All of this was achieved at a cost of less than one
hundred and ninety Japanese pilots, but the attack had not been entirely
successful. The Japanese had not caught the three precious carriers of the
Pacific Fleet in the harbour, and they had been less than thorough in their
destruction of some of the harbour installations, including the oil storage
tanks.
.P What the Japanese had achieved, in a way that the American political
establishment never could, was to unite the United States and to give them a
clear purpose; to avenge Pearl Harbor. Yamamoto knew only too well of the
industrial potential of the United States and whilst he may never have said
the words accredited to him at the end of the film Tora! Tora! Tora! it appears
from contemporary evidence that they certainly conveyed his feelings: "I fear
all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible
resolve."

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1143
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/11/2009 2:16:30 AM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3191
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		I've always thought that Harry varied the values on ships of the same class on the simple principle that some ships would have better key personnel than another. Identical ships of a class would not perform identically in combat. I haven't looked closely at the Italian ship values but I would wager heavily that each and every value on each ship-in-flame is not based on a super detailed, careful analysis of exactly how many guns of how many mm on each ship. Some thought based on the actual specs was used, sure, but I wouldn't get too concerned about a value being perhaps +/- one point in reality. World in Flames is not a tactical wargame and never will be, no matter how many players try to project tactical concerns on to the pieces. The point is to simulate WWII grand strategy, not get buried in minutiae on how many bombs this plane could carry or how many AA mounts this light cruiser had.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1144
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/11/2009 2:22:12 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		HELP REQUIRED PLEASE

Does anyone know where I can get details of US troopships and important convoys - in the Pacific in particular? For example in January 1942 there were 14 ships that sailed from the US for various destinations e.g. Bora Bora, Noumea etc. They were escorted by TF11 and ANZAC forces but I can find nothing about the transports

I would be grateful for any help!! - Many thanks

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1145
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/11/2009 3:23:22 PM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3191
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		The Samuel Eliot Morrison volumes might help. I only have two of them so far....now that I accidentally started buying them singly I will probably work on them that way. Those only _might_ help though. For example, I do have the volume covering Pearl Harbor to the end of the Japanese conquest of the Malay barrier. The January convoys are definitely discussed, but I think maybe mostly in terms of how the CV groups were tangentially involved in covering them, and which CA/CL or possibly BB were assigned to direct escort. I doubt exact troopship names would be mentioned in the text unless there was some actual enemy contact. However the composition of task forces and task groups may be listed in the appendices. I think this volume is out of my storage library and safely ensconced with me in my remote location, I'll check when I get home.

Incidentally, I think these convoys could be a good place to mention the concept of 'notional' units as most likely these would be the scale of actual ground forces delivered to the theater at that time.


(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1146
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/11/2009 6:37:18 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

The Samuel Eliot Morrison volumes might help. I only have two of them so far....now that I accidentally started buying them singly I will probably work on them that way. Those only _might_ help though. For example, I do have the volume covering Pearl Harbor to the end of the Japanese conquest of the Malay barrier. The January convoys are definitely discussed, but I think maybe mostly in terms of how the CV groups were tangentially involved in covering them, and which CA/CL or possibly BB were assigned to direct escort. I doubt exact troopship names would be mentioned in the text unless there was some actual enemy contact. However the composition of task forces and task groups may be listed in the appendices. I think this volume is out of my storage library and safely ensconced with me in my remote location, I'll check when I get home.

Incidentally, I think these convoys could be a good place to mention the concept of 'notional' units as most likely these would be the scale of actual ground forces delivered to the theater at that time.


Warspite1

Ok - thanks. Given what you say, I`ll await your confirmation or otherwise with hope rather than expectation. The trouble is, this is a big issue in the planning process for the USN.

These were significant convoys at that time in size and I would like to use either a Transport counter or perhaps an ASW rather than continue to fill up TF11`s carrier and cruiser`s write-ups. Without the names of the troop ships and some details about the troops being carried, it makes for a pretty uninteresting story!!

Any other suggestions anybody??



_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 1147
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/11/2009 7:09:49 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

The Samuel Eliot Morrison volumes might help. I only have two of them so far....now that I accidentally started buying them singly I will probably work on them that way. Those only _might_ help though. For example, I do have the volume covering Pearl Harbor to the end of the Japanese conquest of the Malay barrier. The January convoys are definitely discussed, but I think maybe mostly in terms of how the CV groups were tangentially involved in covering them, and which CA/CL or possibly BB were assigned to direct escort. I doubt exact troopship names would be mentioned in the text unless there was some actual enemy contact. However the composition of task forces and task groups may be listed in the appendices. I think this volume is out of my storage library and safely ensconced with me in my remote location, I'll check when I get home.

Incidentally, I think these convoys could be a good place to mention the concept of 'notional' units as most likely these would be the scale of actual ground forces delivered to the theater at that time.


Warspite1

Ok - thanks. Given what you say, I`ll await your confirmation or otherwise with hope rather than expectation. The trouble is, this is a big issue in the planning process for the USN.

These were significant convoys at that time in size and I would like to use either a Transport counter or perhaps an ASW rather than continue to fill up TF11`s carrier and cruiser`s write-ups. Without the names of the troop ships and some details about the troops being carried, it makes for a pretty uninteresting story!!

Any other suggestions anybody??



1 - I assume there was a massive increase in the merchant marine for the US during WW II. Statistics on its overall size throughout the war would be interesting. Was there labor strife related to this? I know there were other problems with the unions from time to time.

2 - There was also the disasterous start of the war for the US where German subs destroyed the American coastal shipping with ease - before people began taking blackouts seriously.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1148
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/12/2009 3:02:52 AM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3191
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		OK so I finally found a book I was looking for - History of United States Naval Operations in World War II Volume III: The Rising Sun in the Pacific 1931 - April 1942 by of course Samuel Eliot Morison. I thought these volumes would be ideal candidates for complete posting on Google Books, but they aren't quite 'Official Histories' and are still controlled by a publisher, so you can only get peeks at them on Google, and even then only two or three of the 15 or so volumes. Poking around for them I did discover an interesting website maintained by the US Naval Historical Command or something similar which had a lot of very miscellaneous scanned documents from the war.

Regarding the convoys in January 1942, they gave a few details, but not as many as you would probably like; I think they might solve your mystery of which transports were used and why info is hard to find. What I was remembering was the incredible amount of detail on the forces stationed in the US Asiatic Fleet in the Phillipines and westward, right down to the name of the floating-dock and it's officer in charge, but this level of detail is not presented for the Pacific Fleet in this volume.

A few quotes of interest on the subject of TRS:

"In August, 1939 ..... Very few fast, modern auxiliaries had been finished, although five seaplane, submarine, and destroyer tenders had been started and two more fast oilers of the successful Cimarron class were expected shortly." + footnote : "The Navy on 1 July 1939 had only two transports, three cargo ships, three oilers and one ammunition ship in commission."

So at first glance it seems rather generous to give the USN four TRS to start the game, but read on....

A summary of US forces and their activities on December 7th includes this section:

"4. Heavy cruiser Pensacola was passing through the Phoenix Islands, escorting tender Niagra, Navy transports Chaumont and Republic, two ARMY transports and three freighters. These carried many thousand soldiers, hundreds of aviators and naval replacements, and scores of planes, bound for Manila. Promptly diverted to Suva in the Fijis, the convoy was there joined by Anzac escort and proceeded through Torres Strait to Darwin, Australia. Heavy Cruiser Lousiville escorting ARMY transports Hugh L. Scott and President Coolidge back from Manila, had reached a point about halfway between the Santa Cruz and the Ellice Islands."

So apparently the Army operated their own transport ships at this time? Hmmm.

Regarding January convoys there is this:

"The Marine reinforcements for Samoa, loaded in four transports and one fleet cargo vessel, accompanied by an ammunition ship and a fleet oiler, departed San Diego on 6 January. They were covered by Admiral Halsey's Enterprise force" .... + Yorktown on way through Canal ... "the Marines were all ashore at Samoa on 23 January."

continuing a few pages later on similar activities:

"Two large convoys came through the Canal at the end of January, one consisting of six ships carrying 4500 men and equipment to construct the new naval fuel station at Bora Bora. .... Cincpac had to take care of a much larger convoy carrying 20,000 troops in eight transports, two for garrisoning Christmas Island, two for Canton Island, and the other four for Nouméa, New Caledonia. ..... all reinforcement missions were completed satisfactorily, except that transport President Taylor dragged ashore at Canton Island."

So these actually delivered about a regiment each to Canton and Christmas and enough troops for a whole division to New Caledonia. But that is the sum total of the details in the Morison book. Hopefully looking into the President class of Army transports could lead you to discover the rest of the details you are looking for.....


(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1149
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/12/2009 8:25:02 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian
A few quotes of interest on the subject of TRS:

"In August, 1939 ..... Very few fast, modern auxiliaries had been finished, although five seaplane, submarine, and destroyer tenders had been started and two more fast oilers of the successful Cimarron class were expected shortly." + footnote : "The Navy on 1 July 1939 had only two transports, three cargo ships, three oilers and one ammunition ship in commission."

So at first glance it seems rather generous to give the USN four TRS to start the game, but read on....

4 TRS and 27 CP are given to the USA in S/O 39 because their merchant marine was 8,900,000 tons of shipping at that time (John Ellis' WW2 Databook page 249).

1 TRS is 6 CP, and 6 CP is 1 million tons of shipping, so the WiF FE starting amount of merchant shipping is 4 million tons (TRS) plus 27/6 million tons.
This gives 4 + 4.5 = 8.5 million tons of shipping.

The USA could even have been given 2-3 extra CP for the missing 400,000 tons of shipping.

(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 1150
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/12/2009 8:34:50 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian
A few quotes of interest on the subject of TRS:

"In August, 1939 ..... Very few fast, modern auxiliaries had been finished, although five seaplane, submarine, and destroyer tenders had been started and two more fast oilers of the successful Cimarron class were expected shortly." + footnote : "The Navy on 1 July 1939 had only two transports, three cargo ships, three oilers and one ammunition ship in commission."

So at first glance it seems rather generous to give the USN four TRS to start the game, but read on....

4 TRS and 27 CP are given to the USA in S/O 39 because their merchant marine was 8,900,000 tons of shipping at that time (John Ellis' WW2 Databook page 249).

1 TRS is 6 CP, and 6 CP is 1 million tons of shipping, so the WiF FE starting amount of merchant shipping is 4 million tons (TRS) plus 27/6 million tons.
This gives 4 + 4.5 = 8.5 million tons of shipping.

The USA could even have been given 2-3 extra CP for the missing 400,000 tons of shipping.

Warspite1

Yes, the transports I am looking for stories on will (in the main) be those that carried troops and supplies specifically to support troop operations, landings etc as opposed to tankers, freighters and the like that were used generally i.e. the CP counters. These transports would not have been part of or under the control of the USN at the time but would be available to be requisitioned at immediate notice in time of war and therefore the 4 TRS the US are given is not out of place.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 1151
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/12/2009 10:15:23 AM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

HELP REQUIRED PLEASE

Does anyone know where I can get details of US troopships and important convoys - in the Pacific in particular? For example in January 1942 there were 14 ships that sailed from the US for various destinations e.g. Bora Bora, Noumea etc. They were escorted by TF11 and ANZAC forces but I can find nothing about the transports

I would be grateful for any help!! - Many thanks


If you have to few facts to write on all the US transports you could perhaps write on one of them about the myth of the graffiti "Killroy was here" that is supposed to have its origins on US WW2 troopships.

I am sorry that I have no real help to offer on this subject.

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1152
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/12/2009 5:00:08 PM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3191
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		I thought we discussed Kilroy Was Here in the WWII Quiz thread?


I wrote 'at first glance' because when you read Morison's sentence that the US Navy only had a couple transports in 1939, a WiF player would think ... huh? What I found interesting was that he seemed to imply that the US Army had their own separate transports, something I had never heard before.


I don't think in World in Flames it is usually worth trying to exactly quantify the amounts and the scale of the units. They were purposely left somewhat nebulous ever since the beginning. To me, precise numbers have always seemed to take second place to the 'feel' of the game to the players. The aircraft units are the best example of this; the exact nature of the resource hexes is another. Leaving things less precise is a great advantage for the game I think. A TRS is in and of itself a completely nebulous creation anyway; one month it hauls several hundred fighter bombers across an ocean, the next three divisions of infantry....it's just an aggregate counter anyway.

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 1153
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/12/2009 8:51:46 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

HELP REQUIRED PLEASE

Does anyone know where I can get details of US troopships and important convoys - in the Pacific in particular? For example in January 1942 there were 14 ships that sailed from the US for various destinations e.g. Bora Bora, Noumea etc. They were escorted by TF11 and ANZAC forces but I can find nothing about the transports

I would be grateful for any help!! - Many thanks

Warspite1

Oh well - with few transports to write about, I thought I`d detail a "what if" transport!!

[4245 Transport - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Name: USS Lafayette
.B Engine(s) output: 200,000 hp
.B Top Speed: 32 knots
.B Main armament: Unknown
.B Gross Tonnage: 83,423 tons
.B Thickest armour: Not Applicable
.P World in Flames uses two main types of naval transport counter: Transport
(TRS) and Amphibious (AMPH). The use of these counters depends to an extent on
what optional rules are being used. However, as a general rule, TRS represent
the types of ship that were used to transport men and material from one friendly
port to another, while AMPH represent the specialised shipping that could land
men and material on a hostile shore.
.P TRS not only include troopships but also other vessels that kept the troops
fighting overseas supplied. These vessels include tankers, munitions ships and
other cargo carrying vessels. In addition, and particularly important in the
Pacific War, were the supply ships to the fleet. These write-ups outline a few
of these vessels that were so vital to ensuring a successful outcome to the
Second World War.
.P This write-up looks at a "what if" ship; a transport that could have been
employed by the United States, had she been converted as planned.
.P The SS Normandie began life as a luxury transatlantic liner. She was built in
the early thirties for the French company, Compagnie General Transatlantique. She
sailed for New York for the first time at the end of May 1935 and won the famous
Blue Riband on that very first voyage; recording a time of four days, three hours
and two minutes. She took the record from the Italian vessel Rex and would
dispute the Riband with the RMS Queen Mary in the coming years.
.P Her peacetime career did not last very long. In September 1939 Germany invaded
Poland and two days later, on the 3rd September, the British and French declared
war on Germany. That day Normandie was in New York harbour and the US authorities
interned her; and she never left New York under her own steam again.
.P In May 1941, the US Coast Guard boarded the ship to ensure she was safe from
potential sabotage, although her French officers and crew remained aboard.
Circumstances changed seven months later when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor,
quickly followed by Adolf Hitler`s declaration of war on the United States. As a
result, the US took over Normandie from her French crew. She was formally handed
over to the US Navy for the purposes of converting her to a troopship. This was
an entirely sensible decision given the sheer number of men that needed to be
transported from the US to Europe. The Normandie compared in size to the Queen
Mary, and the British liner was to carry almost 17,000 men in one voyage alone; a
record for any ship.
.P It was also decided to re-name her USS Lafayette; a shrewd political move
given that the Marquis de La Fayette was a Frenchmen who had served in the
Continental Army with distinction during the American War of Independence. Her
official classification was AP-53, reflecting her forthcoming role as a
transport.
.P After acceptance by the Navy, she was then offered to, and accepted by the US
Army on the understanding that the US Navy be responsible for her conversion,
albeit to the Army`s specification. In another turnaround she was then offered
back to the Navy.
.P All this back and forth debate cost a number of wasted weeks. In addition to
this, there was much debate about the timescale for her completion. A tight
deadline of the 14th February 1942 was given and would not be moved. No doubt
this general level of confusion combined with a ridiculously tight timescale
contributed to what happened on the 9th February. Stray sparks from a blowtorch
started a fire that quickly spread, sending flames throughout the ship.
.P In the early evening, the fire was thought to be under control but the ship
took on an ever increasing list and eventually had to be abandoned. She capsized
in the early hours of the following morning and rested on her port side with half
the ship visible above the shallow water. 1 man had died in the attempt to save
the burning ship but a great many more were injured.
.P Although Lafayette was raised in August 1943 and work began on re-building
her, it was quickly realised that the task was too big and that there were too
many other pressing projects to be dealt with; a very sad end to a fine ship.
.P USS Lafayette was scrapped in 1948.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 7/12/2009 9:05:54 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1154
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/13/2009 4:19:42 PM   
ItBurns

 

Posts: 85
Joined: 1/3/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Please see attached the next USN example (this time a battleship write-up). This is the USS Arizona and contaiins details of the attack on Pearl Harbor.

[4071 Arizona - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine(s) output: 33,375 hp
.B Top Speed: 21 knots
.B Main armament: 12 x 14-inch (356mm), 20 x 5-inch (137mm) guns
.B Displacement (full load): 35,929 tons
.B Thickest armour: 14-inch (belt)

All of this was achieved at a cost of less than one hundred and ninety Japanese pilots, but the attack had not been entirely successful.


The figure I've always seen is 30 some odd Japanese aircraft being shot down at Pearl Harbor. What does the 190 figure reference?

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1155
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/13/2009 9:12:56 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ItBurns


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Please see attached the next USN example (this time a battleship write-up). This is the USS Arizona and contaiins details of the attack on Pearl Harbor.

[4071 Arizona - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine(s) output: 33,375 hp
.B Top Speed: 21 knots
.B Main armament: 12 x 14-inch (356mm), 20 x 5-inch (137mm) guns
.B Displacement (full load): 35,929 tons
.B Thickest armour: 14-inch (belt)

All of this was achieved at a cost of less than one hundred and ninety Japanese pilots, but the attack had not been entirely successful.


The figure I've always seen is 30 some odd Japanese aircraft being shot down at Pearl Harbor. What does the 190 figure reference?

Warspite1

A good spot, although 30 is too low. The 190 figure includes the midget subs - and I`m guessing the I-70, sunk shortly after by aircraft from Enterprise. The number of airmen lost was 55 (inc one captured). The write-up has been amended accordingly - thanks for the feed-back.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to ItBurns)
Post #: 1156
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/14/2009 9:41:57 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		I am aware that many of you have been on tenterhooks waiting for this. Well, wait no more - the Greek Navy is now done. Please see below:

[5064 Georgios Averof - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine(s) output: 19,000 hp
.B Top Speed: 22.5 knots
.B Main armament: 4 x 9.2-inch (234mm), 8 x 7.5-inch (190mm) guns
.B Displacement (standard): 9,958 tons
.B Thickest armour: 8-inches (belt)
.P The Georgios Averof (Averof) had a most unusual beginning. She was designed
and built by the Italian shipbuilders Orlando as the third of the Pisa-class
armoured cruisers then under construction for the Italian Navy. However, the
Italians cancelled this third ship.
.P At the same time that she was under construction, Greece were busily
re-building their navy. This had become increasingly important due to the rising
tensions at that time in the Balkans.
.P The Greeks were able to make a down payment to secure the ship thanks to a
deceased Greek businessman, Georgios Averof, who had left £300,000 to the Greek
Government on condition that the money be spent on the navy. The remainder of the
monies to complete the ship came from foreign loans, and this may explain the
wide variety of countries from which her fittings originated. Her propulsion came
from France, her weaponry from the UK and her instrumentation from Germany.
.P The ship was named Georgios Averof in honour of the man who had made her
purchase possible. She was an armoured cruiser and her introduction into the
Royal Hellenic Navy meant that Greece had the most powerful ship afloat of all
the Balkan countries, including and most importantly, the Ottoman Empire. When
the first Balkan War broke out in 1912, Averof led the fleet that beat the
Ottoman Navy at both Elli and Lemnos, so ensuring that the Aegean was safe from
Turkish encroachment during this brief war.
.P When the Germans invaded Greece in April 1941 to assist their Axis partner
Italy, Averof and other units of the Greek Navy sailed for Alexandria, Egypt to
continue the war after the fall of their country. Averof spent much time in the
Indian Ocean on convoy defence duty under Royal Navy command. In October 1944,
she carried the Greek Government-in-exile back home after Athens had been
liberated.
.P Georgios Averof remains intact to this day as a museum ship.


[5065 Helle - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine(s) output: 7,200 hp
.B Top Speed: 20.5 knots
.B Main armament: 3 x 6-inch (152mm), 2 x 3-inch (76.2mm) guns
.B Displacement (standard): 2,115 tons
.B Thickest armour: No belt armour
.P Helle began life as Fei Hung, a Chao Ho-class cruiser that was built in the
United States for the Chinese Navy just before World War I. However, the Chinese
revolution of 1912 meant that she was put up for sale upon completion in 1914.
.P She was purchased by the Royal Hellenic Navy, which at the time were under-
going their own re-building program.
.P The Chao-Ho`s were very lightly armed and armoured cruisers that were designed
as training vessels. However, Helle was modernised in the late twenties and
converted to a minelaying cruiser. This involved a large-scale alteration to her
superstructure, her engine and boilers and her armament. Note the technical
details above are post this conversion.
.P Helle did not take part in the Second world War as she was sunk before the
declaration of war by Italy on Greece in October 1940. Mussolini, in a bid to
keep up with the victories Hitler had been winning, was itching for new territory
for his "New Roman Empire". He viewed both Yugoslavia and particularly Greece
with envious eyes.
.P On the 15th August 1940, Helle was at anchor off the Aegean Island of Tinos.
It was the Feast of the Assumption, an important day in the religious Calandar.
Seemingly from nowhere, a torpedo suddenly struck the ship, quickly sinking
Helle.
.P The Italians protested that the incident had nothing to do with them but the
origin of the torpedo debris left no doubt as to the perpetrator of the crime
that killed 9 crew and injured many more.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1157
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/14/2009 11:13:08 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I am aware that many of you have been on tenterhooks waiting for this. Well, wait no more - the Greek Navy is now done. Please see below:

Pfeewww, I really thought that they would never show up !!!!
Thanks !!!

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1158
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/15/2009 10:01:50 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		After many, many years in the planning and execution, blood sweat and tears having been spilt in the process, I am pleased to announce the mighty Yugoslav and Romanian Navies are done..war is hell!

The plan will be to re-visit these to flesh out some of the detail - if decent stories can be found - particularly of the Yugoslav vessels when under Italian command. However, given the time pressures, this is not high on the priority list at present - unless of course anyone fancies doing a bit of research for me


[5066 Dalmacija - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine(s) output: 40,000 hp
.B Top Speed: 38 knots
.B Main armament: 4 x 4.7-inch (120mm), 4 x 40mm guns
.B Displacement (full load): 1,655 tons
.B Thickest armour: Not Applicable
.P The Royal Yugoslav Navy is represented in World In Flames by one counter
named Dalmacija. Dalmacija was an old ex-German Navy cruiser, Niobe, dating from
1900, that was acquired by Yugoslavia in 1925. At the start of World War II she
was only fit for training purposes and was certainly not a front-line vessel. On
her own she would not have warranted a Ships In Flames counter.
.P The back-bone of the Navy were the four destroyers of the Dubrovnik and
Beograd-classes and it is therefore, as the most modern vessel in the fleet, a
Beograd-class destroyer that provides the technical details above.
.P The largest of these destroyers was the British designed flotilla leader,
Dubrovnik. She was built in the early thirties and at that time was one of the
largest destroyers afloat.
.P In the late thirties, Yugoslavia planned a class of five new destroyers, this
time of French design. Only three were built, Beograd, Ljubljana and Zagreb,
while a fourth, Split, was under construction when the Germans invaded. The
remainder of the Navy was made up of a mixture of new but mostly old torpedo
boats, minesweepers and other craft.
.P In the main, the Yugoslav Navy had a very brief war. German and Italian forces
invaded Yugoslavia on the 6th April 1941 and the main naval contribution to the
defence of the country involved Beograd, which took part in a Yugoslav counter-
attack near Zara that failed and in which she was damaged by bombs from Italian
aircraft.
.P Most of the Navy`s ships were captured by the Italians, with the exception of
Zagreb, whose crew scuttled her on the 17th April; one submarine, and two motor
torpedo boats. These last three vessels escaped to Alexandria, Egypt to continue
the fight against the Axis alongside the Royal Navy.
.P The Dalmacija, Beograd, Dubrovnik and Ljubljana were all destroyed while under
German or Italian command late in the war. Split was never completed by the
Italians before their surrender.


[5067 Destroyer Flotilla - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine(s) output: 48,000 hp
.B Top Speed: 35 knots
.B Main armament: 4 x 4.7-inch (120mm), 2 x 40mm guns
.B Displacement (full load): 1,850 tons
.B Thickest armour: Not Applicable
.P In World In Flames the Romanian Navy consists of one counter that represents
a destroyer flotilla, and that is available from 1928. The flotilla centres
around a class of two destroyers that were built in the late twenties. These were
the Italian built Regele Ferdinand-class, and the technical details above are for
these vessels as they were during the Second World War.
.P They were named Regele Ferdinand and Regale Maria after King Ferdinand I and
his Queen. Their British design was similar to the Royal Navy`s Shakespeare-class
destroyer, although they featured German and Swedish armament and machinery.
.P These destroyers were supported by the two older vessels of the Marasti-class,
Marasti and Marasesti, that had also been built in Italy, during the First World
War. The Romanian Navy also contained half a dozen torpedo boats.
.P All four destroyers survived the Second World War, where they were largely
employed on convoy escort duty in the Black Sea. They were taken over by the
Soviet Navy after the Red Army overran Romania in August 1944.
.P All four ships survived the war and were not removed from service until the
1960`s.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 7/15/2009 10:02:20 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 1159
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/15/2009 10:13:53 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Given the debate on another thread recently and realising that Operation Catapult raises strong feelings, I thought I would post the CW write-up that deals with this episode. I hope and believe that the description is pretty neutral in setting out the facts from the CW perspective and causes no offence. I have not looked at the French write-up that deals with the same episode but would like to ensure it has a similar neutral tone - albeit that the opening paragraph should explain Darlan`s position i.e. he had given his promise to Churchill and thought that good enough to avoid bloodshed. Thoughts anyone?

[4685 Enterprise - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine(s) output: 80,000 hp
.B Top Speed: 32 knots
.B Main armament: 7 x 6-inch (152mm), 3 x 4-inch (102mm) guns
.B Displacement (Full Load): 9,435 tons
.B Thickest armour: 3-inches (belt)
.P The Emerald or E-class were light cruisers designed for the Royal Navy
(RN) in the last year of World War I. They were originally intended to counter a
class of high speed cruiser that the Germans were rumoured to be building. Two
ships were completed, while a third was cancelled at the end of the war.
.P In order to achieve their high speed, they were long and very powerful ships;
and thus expensive. However, despite their size and power they contained only
one more 6-inch gun than the preceding D-Class.
.P Both vessels of the class received a catapult in the thirties. At the same
time they were given a high angle control system (HACS) for their secondary 4-
inch guns, thus giving them a degree of anti-aircraft (AA) defensive capability.
However, like the D and unmodified C-class cruisers of similar vintage, they
served largely in backwater theatres for their own safety.
.P The two ships completed both survived the war.
.P HMS Enterprise was completed in March 1926 and at the start of World war II
she was based at Portsmouth. She sailed for Scapa Flow on the 9th September to
join the 4th Cruiser Squadron (CS). On the 18th of that month she carried out
her first patrol in the North Western Approaches, although she only undertook
two such patrols before she was transferred to the America and West Indies
Squadron at the start of October. On her way to her new posting she embarked
gold bullion that was being sent to Canada, and she sailed for this operation
with the battleship Revenge and the cruisers Emerald and Caradoc.
.P Enterprise arrived at Halifax on the 22nd and was transferred to the Halifax
Escort Force to patrol off the east coast of Canada. From the start of November
she was deployed as ocean escort for convoys sailing from Canada to the UK and
she remained in this role for two months before finally heading south to begin
duty with the West Indies Squadron. Once again her stay was brief as she was
ordered to return to the UK for a refit. While sailing home she provided escort
for the third Canadian troop convoy, TC.3 (see HMS Valiant).
.P At the start of March, Enterprise underwent refit at Portsmouth. This was
completed in time for her to take part in the ill-fated Norwegian Campaign (see
HMS Curlew) where she received damage during sustained air attacks. Enterprise
embarked members of the Norwegian government for transfer to the UK at the end
of May and she had repairs carried out upon her return. Upon completion, she
sailed for Gibraltar for her next posting.
.P Upon the outbreak of war, the RN were responsible for the eastern half of
the Mediterranean and the French, the Western half. But with the fall of France
the RN had a major problem to solve as they now had to look after the entire
Mediterranean. The fleet base at Malta was too vulnerable to air attack and so
the Mediterranean Fleet would need to be based at either Gibraltar or
Alexandria; leaving one end of this important waterway unprotected. The Prime
Minister, Winston Churchill decided to base the fleet in Egypt and to set up a
small but powerful force based in Gibraltar that could be deployed in the
Atlantic or the Mediterranean as required. The force was to ne known as Force H.
.P The initial Force H consisted of the battleships Valiant and Resolution, the
carrier Ark Royal, the battlecruiser Hood, the cruisers Arethusa and Enterprise
and eleven destroyers. The fleet came into being on the 28th June when its
commander, Vice-Admiral Somerville, arrived at Gibraltar aboard the Arethusa.
Its first operation was one of the most written about and debated episodes of
the war.
.P After the fall of France, the British feared that the French fleet would be
seized by the Germans. Although Admiral Darlan had promised Churchill that
French ships would not be allowed to fall into German hands, the British, now
alone against the Germans, could not afford to take the chance that the Vichy
government would change their minds; or more likely, have it changed for them.
The RN were too stretched as it was. If the Germans and Italians were to add the
French ships, particularly the battlecruisers Dunkerque and Strasbourg to their
order of battle, the naval balance of power would have swung in favour of the
Axis. Churchill was a francophile at heart and this must have made the decision
he was to take even harder to bear; the British had to stop any possibility that
the Axis navies would get hold of French warships. As part of a wider operation,
French ships in Britain and Alexandria were captured and either taken by force
or voluntarily surrendered, but dealing with the French fleet at Oran, Algeria
was to be a different matter.
.P The British ordered Force H to sail to the French naval base at Mers-El-
Kebir, where the bulk of the French fleet were at anchor. The fleet consisted of
the battleships Provence and Bretagne, the battlecruisers Dunkerque and
Strasbourg, the seaplane tender Commandant Teste and six destroyers. This fleet
was under the command of Admiral Gensoul.
.P On the 3rd July an ultimatum was given by the British to Gensoul that
consisted of four choices; the French could a) sail with the British and
continue the war, b) sail with reduced crews under British control to a British
port, c) sail with reduced crews to a French port in the West Indies where they
would be demilitarised, or d) sail to the (then neutral) United States. If none
of these options were chosen, the British would open fire. Somerville did not
present the ultimatum personally. This was left to a French speaking junior
officer. Gensoul sent one of his subordinates to meet the British in response to
what he saw as an affront, before seeking orders from Darlan.
.P With no affirmative response coming, and aware that the French may send
reinforcements from Toulon, Churchill reluctantly gave Somerville the order to
begin the operation. Just before 0500hrs, shells from the 15-inch guns began to
rain down on the French, who had little freedom of manoeuvre in the harbour. A
magazine was penetrated aboard Bretagne resulting in a huge explosion. She soon
sank, taking 977 of her crew with her. This loss was followed by the Provence,
Dunkerque and the destroyer Mogador all being severely damaged. The Strasbourg
managed to escape from the harbour with a four-strong destroyer escort. Although
they were attacked by Swordfish from the Ark Royal, the Strasbourg group were
able to get out to open sea and then back to Toulon. Arethusa and Enterprise
engaged one of the French destroyers, but the pursuit of the French ships was
ended at 0820hrs.
.P Two days later, Swordfish from Ark Royal again attacked Mers-el-Kebir in
order to finish off the Dunkerque. A torpedo struck a patrol boat moored
alongside the battlecruiser, and when a number of depth charges were ignited,
the patrol boat blew up and the Dunkerque was further damaged. In retaliation,
the French attacked Gibraltar using aircraft from North Africa, but no real
damage was inflicted.
.P In this tragic episode, a total of 1,297 French sailors were killed and
about 350 were wounded. However, the action was recognised in the US as proving
once and for all that Britain was deadly serious about standing up to Adolf
Hitler.
.P Later that month, Enterprise took part in Hurry, an operation to deliver
fighter aircraft to Malta (see HMS Argus) and as part of this operation she
covered an air attack on Sardinia (see HMS Ark Royal). In August, Enterprise was
transferred to the South American Division, arriving in Capetown in September.
From there she was deployed for trade defence and patrol and interception duty.
At the end of 1940 she took part in the unsuccessful searches for the German
raider Thor and then the pocket-battleship Admiral Scheer alongside fellow
cruisers Cumberland and Newcastle. The New Year saw her return to convoy escort
duty before searching, again without success, for Admiral Scheer in February
(see HMS Hawkins).
.P The beginning of March saw Enterprise arrive in Bombay where she joined the
4th CS. Initially she undertook convoy escort duty before, in April, she was
deployed off Iraq in response to the pro-German revolt in Iraq (see HMS
Emerald). She remained in the Persian Gulf until June, after which she returned
to the Indian Ocean and further convoy escort work until November. At this time
she was sent for a refit in Ceylon.
.P After the outbreak of war with Japan, Enterprise was deployed to escort
military convoys to Singapore (see HMS Durban). As part of this, in January she
escorted convoy BM10 that took over 6,000 troops to the colony in a desperate
bid to stem the Japanese advance. When Singapore was surrendered, Enterprise
returned to the Indian Ocean, initially supporting British troops in Burma,
before retreating to Ceylon to join the Eastern Fleet. She was part of the fleet
under Admiral Somerville that sought out the Japanese carrier fleet that entered
the Indian Ocean in March; fortunately without success given the disparity in
air strength between the two fleets (see HMS Cornwall). Later, when the cruisers
Cornwall and Dorsetshire were sunk by Japanese aircraft, Enterprise was able to
pick up survivors from the cruisers.
.P After the Japanese had left the Indian Ocean and the RN had re-located to
East Africa, Enterprise was deployed once more on patrol and interception and
trade defence duties. She remained in this role until the end of September, when
she was ordered to return to the UK. She reached the UK in December, having been
diverted to assist the cruiser Phoebe following the laters torpedoing by U-161
off the Central West African coast.
.P Enterprise began 1943 in the dockyard having an extensive refit. During this
refit she had two of her 6-inch guns removed and replaced with additional close-
range AA weaponry. She was only ready to return to service at the end of that
year. In December, she and HMNZS Gambia were deployed off the Azores to
intercept blockade runners known to be on passage from the Far East; Operation
Stonewall. During this operation she intercepted the Alsterufer in an engagement
that also saw the sinking of the destroyer Z25 and the torpedo boats T25 and T26
that had been sent to assist the Alsterufer.
.P Enterprise returned to the UK after Stonewall and she was prepared for her
next operation; Neptune, the naval component of the Normandy landings in June.
To get her ready for this operation, Enterprise had her aircraft facilities
removed and yet more AA weaponry added.
.P For Neptune, Enterprise was part of Bombarding Force A, Western Task Force
(see HMS Ramillies). She provided shore bombardment for the landings at Utah
Beach and she continued in this role until the end of June when she took part in
the bombardment of enemy positions in and around Cherbourg (see HMS Glasgow).
She was then returned to RN control and she remained deployed off Normandy in
support of British and Canadian operations in the Eastern Task Force sector. She
had her gun barrels replaced in August but was not used in that role again.
.P In October 1944, Enterprise was withdrawn from operational service and was
reduced to Reserve status. In early 1945 she had a refit approved for conversion
to trooping duties. She was under refit when the war ended.
.P HMS Enterprise was scrapped in 1946.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 7/15/2009 10:14:58 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1160
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/17/2009 9:46:22 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		No comments on Operation Catapult I see - that`s good, I hoped there would be no problem with what is a sensitive subject. That wording is now in agreed form.

In the meantime I have completed the Polish Navy .

[5063 Destroyer Flotilla - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine(s) output: 54,500 hp
.B Top Speed: 39 knots
.B Main armament: 7 x 4.7-inch (120mm), 4 x 40mm guns
.B Displacement (full load): 3,383 tons
.B Thickest armour: Not applicable
.P The Polish Navy in World In Flames is represented by a destroyer flotilla
counter. In reality, this flotilla was made up of four relatively modern
destroyers: Burza and Wicher of the Wicher-class and Blyskawica and Grom of the
Grom-class. It is for the Grom-class that the technical details above are given.
.P Of the two destroyer classes, the Wicher`s were the earliest, having been
built in the late twenties in France to a design based upon the Bourrasque-class.
These ships were not entirely satisfactory and were earmarked for modernisation
during the early forties; although this work was never started. The Grom-class
were a different proposition, and provided two fast, well-armed and modern
destroyers for the Polish Navy. In addition to these four vessels, were five
submarines, six minesweepers, a minelayer and other sundry units.
.P Unfortunately, against an enemy like the Kriegsmarine, the small Polish Navy
were never going to be able to put up much of a fight in defence of their
country. As a result, in early 1939, the Polish and British Governments agreed on
a plan for getting some of the Polish naval units to Britain, where they would be
of greater use to the Polish cause, acting under the command of the Royal Navy
(RN). Three destroyers were chosen to sail for Britain in late August, once war
with Germany became imminent. These were Grom, Burza and Blyskawica and they
arrived in the UK on the 1st September, the same day that the Germans launched
their invasion of Poland. In addition to these three vessels, two submarines were
also able to make it to the UK; the Wilk and the Orzel and they joined the RN`s
2nd Submarine Flotilla.
.P The sense in the Anglo-Polish plan had been proved within days of the German
invasion; Whicher and most of the other ships of the Polish Navy were soon sunk.
.P In November 1939, the Polish Government-in-exile and the British Government
signed the Anglo-Polish Naval Agreement, under which Polish Navy ships were to be
operated in every way as Polish Navy vessels, with the exception that they were
under the operational control of the Admiralty.
.P Both the Polish Navy and their merchant equivalent suffered a number of losses
in 1940 (for details of the later see Commonwealth Transport Counter 4724. This
pays tribute to the sailors of the Polish merchant fleet, as there is no World In
Flames counter of their own). Grom took part in the ill-fated Norwegian Campaign
and in early May, while she was in Rombaksfjord providing shore bombardment
against German positions around Narvik, she was sunk in an air attack. In
addition the submarine Orzel was lost with all hands just a month later; it is
believed she fell victim to a mine. It had been Orzel that had sunk the German
freighter Rio de Janeiro at the start of the German invasion of Norway and it was
the presence of the freighter that had convinced the British that the German
fleet movements were not an attempt to break-out into the Atlantic.
.P The RN agreed to transfer ships to replace the losses and to build-up the
Polish Navy during the course of the war. The transfers included the destroyers
Garland (name remained the same), Nerissa (Piorun), Myrmidon (Orkan) and three
Hunt-class escort destroyers: Silverton (Krakowiak), Oakley (Kujawiak) and Bedale
(Slazak). In addition the RN transferred the destroyer Ouragon (name remained the
same) that they had seized from the French Navy after the French surrender in
June 1940, three submarines and a host of smaller vessels.
.P The largest ships transferred to Poland were the two D-class cruisers, Dragon
(which retained her name) and Danae (Conrad), the later being transferred after
the loss of the former in July 1944.
.P The Polish Navy fought alongside the RN in all the main battlegrounds of the
European threatre including Dunkirk, the Arctic convoys to the Soviet Union, the
Mediterranean and the Battle of the Atlantic. Piorun was involved in the hunt for
the battleship Bismarck in May 1941.
.P The losses did not end in 1940 however; the submarine Jastrzab was lost in a
friendly fire incident while on patrol in the Arctic, screening convoy PQ-15; the
Kujawiak was sunk by a mine while off Malta during the important Malta relief
operation, Harpoon a month later; Orkan was torpedoed and sunk with heavy loss of
life in October 1943 whilst on convoy escort duty in the North Atlantic and in
July 1944 the cruiser Dragon was so badly damaged by a torpedo while off the
beaches of Normandy, that she was scuttled to help form part of one of the
artifical mulberry harbours.
.P The story of Poland in World War II is one of the great many that tug at the
heartstrings. The country over which the European war started was quickly overrun
by both German and Soviet foes. However, many of her soldiers, sailors and airmen
fled the country in order to fight on with the Allies to try and help restore
Polish independence. Sadly, despite the gallant, heroic efforts of her servicemen
and women, this was not to be; one totalitarian regime was simply swapped for
another. They deserved better.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 7/17/2009 9:51:42 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1161
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/17/2009 10:10:28 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		'later' should be 'latter'.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1162
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/17/2009 10:41:19 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

'later' should be 'latter'.

Warspite1

Thanks Steve - I`ve done a search through the master list - and this was not a one-off mistake


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 7/17/2009 11:06:40 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1163
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/18/2009 3:51:08 AM   
paulderynck


Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Really minor but in the second last paragraph: "the Kujawiak was sunk by a mine while off Malta during the important Malta relief operation, Harpoon a month later;" the comma should be after Harpoon, not before.

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1164
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/18/2009 4:45:39 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Really minor but in the second last paragraph: "the Kujawiak was sunk by a mine while off Malta during the important Malta relief operation, Harpoon a month later;" the comma should be after Harpoon, not before.

Warspite1

Is that right? I am not saying Operation Harpoon, but operation, Harpoon i.e. I think you would be right if I was saying:

the Kujawiak was sunk by a mine while off Malta during the important Malta relief mission, Operation Harpoon, a month later;"

I am no expert on comma`s but I think what I`ve said is right.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 1165
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/18/2009 5:29:51 AM   
paulderynck


Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Really minor but in the second last paragraph: "the Kujawiak was sunk by a mine while off Malta during the important Malta relief operation, Harpoon a month later;" the comma should be after Harpoon, not before.

Warspite1

Is that right? I am not saying Operation Harpoon, but operation, Harpoon i.e. I think you would be right if I was saying:

the Kujawiak was sunk by a mine while off Malta during the important Malta relief mission, Operation Harpoon, a month later;"

I am no expert on comma`s but I think what I`ve said is right.

It read strangely to me. I'm no expert. I focused on the clause: "Harpoon a month later". Maybe a comma before and after would be right, but that's just my opinion. It was during Operation Harpoon wasn't it? How about: "a month later, the Kujawiak was sunk by a mine while off Malta during the important Malta relief operation, Harpoon;"?

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1166
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/18/2009 6:05:20 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Really minor but in the second last paragraph: "the Kujawiak was sunk by a mine while off Malta during the important Malta relief operation, Harpoon a month later;" the comma should be after Harpoon, not before.

Warspite1

Is that right? I am not saying Operation Harpoon, but operation, Harpoon i.e. I think you would be right if I was saying:

the Kujawiak was sunk by a mine while off Malta during the important Malta relief mission, Operation Harpoon, a month later;"

I am no expert on comma`s but I think what I`ve said is right.

It read strangely to me. I'm no expert. I focused on the clause: "Harpoon a month later". Maybe a comma before and after would be right, but that's just my opinion. It was during Operation Harpoon wasn't it? How about: "a month later, the Kujawiak was sunk by a mine while off Malta during the important Malta relief operation, Harpoon;"?

Warspite1

Agreed - write up duly amended


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 1167
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/18/2009 10:08:26 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Please see below the first of the Italian ASW counters.

[5024 ASW Italian - by Robert Jenkins]
.P The date on the back of these ASW and ASW Carrier counters do not relate in
any meaningful way to actual build dates for the ships that undertook the
convoy escort role during World War II. The counter date should therefore be
ignored.
.P These counters do not represent an individual convoy or any specific ships,
but are designed to represent convoy escort groups. They have mixed values
reflecting the fact that the make-up of an escort group could differ from one
convoy to the next.
.P In declaring war, Mussolini had greatly mis-judged the Italian situation. For
one thing, he had given insufficient notice to his merchant fleet captains that
war was about to be declared. As a result, a great many ships were outside of the
Mediterranean on the 10th June 1940 and not all made it back to Italy or to a
neutral port. the Italians had effectively lost over a third of their merchant
fleet before a shot was fired. This simply exacerbated another problem; how to
supply Italian (and later, German) troops in North Africa. One of the little
known stories of World War II is the bravery and sacrifice of the Italian
merchant navy and their escorts in their efforts to supply North Africa.
.P This write-up looks at the Turbine-class destroyers. These were a class of
eight ships that were built for the Regia Marina (RM) in the late twenties. They
were an "improved" Sauro-class, built slightly longer and with a slightly
increased speed.
.P The technical details below are post the outbreak of the Second World War as
the class were originally fitted with two 40mm anti-aircraft (AA) guns.
.B
.B Name: Espero
.B Engine(s) output: 40,000 hp
.B Top Speed: 36 knots
.B Main armament: 4 x 4.7-inch (120mm), 8 x 20mm guns
.B Displacement (full load): 1,670 tons
.B Thickest Armour: n/a
.P The story for this ASW Escort counter is slightly unusual in that the
escorts for this particular battle were also the cargo carriers. However, it is a
story worth telling to honour the bravery of the Italian destroyer captain who
sacrificed his ship to ensure the remaining ships under his command reached their
destination.
.P The engagement that became known as the Battle of the Espero Convoy was fought
south-west of the island of Crete on the 28th June 1940, just over two weeks
after Italy declared war on the French and British.
.P The Italians needed to reinforce their garrison at Tobruk with an anti-tank
unit. Because of the need for speed and to ensure the reinforcements reached
their destination, the RM decided to use three fast destroyers to carry the 162
troops and their equipment. The ships chosen were three Turbine-class destroyers:
Espero (the Flagship of Captain Baroni), Ostro and Zeffiro.
.P At the same time, the Royal Navy (RN) were seeking to safely deliver three
Alexandria-bound convoys of their own in the Eastern Mediterranean. For this,
seven cruisers and sixteen destroyers were deployed, including five cruisers of
Vice-Admiral Tovey`s 7th Cruiser Squadron; Liverpool, Orion, HMAS Sydney,
Gloucester and Neptune. When the Italian ships were spotted by British
reconnaissance aircraft, Tovey detached his squadron to intercept.
.P The first shots were fired at 1830hrs, taking the Italian ships completely by
surprise. The destroyers were faster but the 6-inch gun RN cruisers could out-
range Baroni`s ships. Baroni ordered smoke to be made and used his speed
advantage as he bravely manoeuvred his ship so as to allow the escape of the
other two destroyers.
.P Espero managed to hit Liverpool with one shell, although this caused little
damage. Even so, the RN cruisers found difficulty hitting their target and they
expended an enormous amount of ammunition in finally silencing the plucky little
Italian vessel.
.P There were only 53 survivors from the Espero and Baroni was not one of them.
For his actions that day Captain Baroni was posthumously awarded the highest
honour possible; the Medaglia d´oro al valor militare. Thanks to his actions the
Zeffiro and Ostro both ultimately reached Tobruk.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 7/18/2009 12:19:57 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1168
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/19/2009 9:30:13 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline 		Lets start with...
 
USS Neosho (AO), an oilier, describing a transport? 
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some Translations:
 
Pong Ho - Along the riverside
Hai Yin - Hai; Sea. Yîn; literally "flourishing" and "blood red
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Soviet counter in Cruisers in Flames called Volga (please note Soviet idea of a Heavy Cruiser is not the same as ours in the 2nd link ):
 
http://www.steelnavy.com/KomBrigSverdlov.htm
 
The Sverdlov class, Project 68-bis, of light cruisers.
 
SISTERSHIPS: Zhdanov, Aleksandr Suverov, Admiral Senyavin, Dmitrii Pojarskii, Kronshtadt (not completed), Tallin (not completed), Varyag (not completed), Admiral Ushakov, Aleksandr Nevskii, Admiral Lazarev, Ordjonikidze, Shcherbakov (not completed), Kozima Minin (not completed), Dmitrii Donskoi (not completed), Bez Nazvaniya ("un-named" not completed), Molotovsk (renamed Oktyabriskaya Revolutsiya in 1957), Murmansk, Dzerzhinskii, Admiral Nahkimov, Mikhail Kutuzov, Admiral Kornilov (not completed), Bez Nazvaniya (II) ("un-named" not completed, Thanks to Gordon Hogg for clarification of the two hulls listed as "Bez Nazvaniya", meaning un-named).
 
 
The Soviet Navy at the Outbreak and During the Great Patriotic War
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:

Warspite1 post # 1145
 
Does anyone know where I can get details of US troopships and important convoys - in the Pacific in particular? For example in January 1942 there were 14 ships that sailed from the US for various destinations e.g. Bora Bora, Noumea etc. They were escorted by TF11 and ANZAC forces but I can find nothing about the transports

 
No they were not.
 
Some history:
 
January 6, 1942
 
The Second Marine Brigade (Brigadier General Henry L. Larsen, USMC) embarked in troop transports (former Matson Line passenger liners) SS Lurline, SS Monterey, SS Matsonia, cargo ship USS Jupiter, and ammunition ship USS Lassen sails from San Diego, California, for Pago Pago, American Samoa. The initial escort is provided by Task Force 17 comprised of the aircraft carrier USS Yorktown, the heavy cruiser USS Louisville, the light cruiser USS St. Louis and three destroyers.
 
January 23, 1942
 
Task Force 6814 departs New York for New Zealand and then to New Caledonia. This unit with other additions will become the Americal Division. New Caledonia was a Free French, French colony. With the Japanese war machine rolling, the French asked on 12-15-41 for military assistance on (protection).
 
TF 6814 was built around 2 regiments, the 132nd (Illinois) and the 182nd. These had been declared surplus when the federalized NG 33rd and 26th Divisions had been reorganized into triangular divisions. The 164th Regiment (North Dakota) was later added and thus the units were in place for the creation of the Americal Division. Ameri
(cans in New) Cal(edonia) gives you the name.
 
TASK FORCE 6814, US Army in Australia During WW2
 
SS Argentina
SS Barry
SS Cristobel
SS Erickson
SS McAndrew
SS Santa Elena
SS Santa Rosa
SS Island Mail
 
 
January 27, 1942 almost 5,000 U.S. Army troops sail from Charleston, South Carolina and arrive on February 17, 1942 at Bora Bora in the Society Islands, which located in the western portion of French Polynesia. This force consists of the 102nd Infantry regiment (less one Battalion), an AA Regiment, and 296 men of the Bobcat Detachment (Bobcat was the code name for Bora Bora) of the 1st Naval Construction Battalion. This is the first operational deployment of the Seabees. Bora Bora is to be used as a refueling base to support the Southern Lifeline to Australi
 
I cannot find any information on this group. This is possibly be cause it was hurriedly put together and poorly organized.
 
But here is a List of ships of the United States Army.
 
February 13, 1942
 
Chartered U.S. passenger ship SS President Taylor, transporting 900 Army troops to occupy Canton Island, runs aground on a reef off her destination, and becomes stranded.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1169
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/19/2009 10:18:05 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Lets start with...
 
USS Neosho (AO), an oilier, describing a transport? 
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some Translations:
 
Pong Ho - Along the riverside
Hai Yin - Hai; Sea. Yîn; literally "flourishing" and "blood red
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Soviet counter in Cruisers in Flames called Volga (please note Soviet idea of a Heavy Cruiser is not the same as ours in the 2nd link ):
 
http://www.steelnavy.com/KomBrigSverdlov.htm
 
The Sverdlov class, Project 68-bis, of light cruisers.
 
SISTERSHIPS: Zhdanov, Aleksandr Suverov, Admiral Senyavin, Dmitrii Pojarskii, Kronshtadt (not completed), Tallin (not completed), Varyag (not completed), Admiral Ushakov, Aleksandr Nevskii, Admiral Lazarev, Ordjonikidze, Shcherbakov (not completed), Kozima Minin (not completed), Dmitrii Donskoi (not completed), Bez Nazvaniya ("un-named" not completed), Molotovsk (renamed Oktyabriskaya Revolutsiya in 1957), Murmansk, Dzerzhinskii, Admiral Nahkimov, Mikhail Kutuzov, Admiral Kornilov (not completed), Bez Nazvaniya (II) ("un-named" not completed, Thanks to Gordon Hogg for clarification of the two hulls listed as "Bez Nazvaniya", meaning un-named).
 
 
The Soviet Navy at the Outbreak and During the Great Patriotic War
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:

Warspite1 post # 1145
 
Does anyone know where I can get details of US troopships and important convoys - in the Pacific in particular? For example in January 1942 there were 14 ships that sailed from the US for various destinations e.g. Bora Bora, Noumea etc. They were escorted by TF11 and ANZAC forces but I can find nothing about the transports

 
No they were not.
 
Some history:
 
January 6, 1942
 
The Second Marine Brigade (Brigadier General Henry L. Larsen, USMC) embarked in troop transports (former Matson Line passenger liners) SS Lurline, SS Monterey, SS Matsonia, cargo ship USS Jupiter, and ammunition ship USS Lassen sails from San Diego, California, for Pago Pago, American Samoa. The initial escort is provided by Task Force 17 comprised of the aircraft carrier USS Yorktown, the heavy cruiser USS Louisville, the light cruiser USS St. Louis and three destroyers.
 
January 23, 1942
 
Task Force 6814 departs New York for New Zealand and then to New Caledonia. This unit with other additions will become the Americal Division. New Caledonia was a Free French, French colony. With the Japanese war machine rolling, the French asked on 12-15-41 for military assistance on (protection).
 
TF 6814 was built around 2 regiments, the 132nd (Illinois) and the 182nd. These had been declared surplus when the federalized NG 33rd and 26th Divisions had been reorganized into triangular divisions. The 164th Regiment (North Dakota) was later added and thus the units were in place for the creation of the Americal Division. Ameri
(cans in New) Cal(edonia) gives you the name.
 
TASK FORCE 6814, US Army in Australia During WW2
 
SS Argentina
SS Barry
SS Cristobel
SS Erickson
SS McAndrew
SS Santa Elena
SS Santa Rosa
SS Island Mail
 
 
January 27, 1942 almost 5,000 U.S. Army troops sail from Charleston, South Carolina and arrive on February 17, 1942 at Bora Bora in the Society Islands, which located in the western portion of French Polynesia. This force consists of the 102nd Infantry regiment (less one Battalion), an AA Regiment, and 296 men of the Bobcat Detachment (Bobcat was the code name for Bora Bora) of the 1st Naval Construction Battalion. This is the first operational deployment of the Seabees. Bora Bora is to be used as a refueling base to support the Southern Lifeline to Australi
 
I cannot find any information on this group. This is possibly be cause it was hurriedly put together and poorly organized.
 
But here is a List of ships of the United States Army.
 
February 13, 1942
 
Chartered U.S. passenger ship SS President Taylor, transporting 900 Army troops to occupy Canton Island, runs aground on a reef off her destination, and becomes stranded.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Welcome to the forum.

Rob (Warspite1) is going to be delighted, I am sure.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 1170
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