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burma logistics - 7/21/2009 1:46:39 PM   
onhilotime

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 7/21/2009
Status: offline 		Someone posted this screen of Burma in AE....trying to figure out where I'll draw the defensive line against Japan...in WITP I always holed up on the Irawaddy...but I dont see how I can run supplies into Shwebo. Will supplies cross the river from Imphal?

Where would you defend India?

Thanks,
Hilotime




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< Message edited by onhilotime -- 7/21/2009 1:51:27 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: burma logistics - 7/21/2009 2:19:04 PM   
Andy Mac

 

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From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Imphal/Kohima/Chittagong.

Trying to defend south of the mountains without a workign port will be tough better to stay on the railway and logistic net north of the mountains and reactr to them

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RE: burma logistics - 7/21/2009 2:20:40 PM   
Andy Mac

 

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From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Cox Bazaar is dangerous but may be needed.

I keep a solid reserve at Rangpur on the rail net so it can respond to an attack on any ofr the three likely zones.

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Post #: 3
RE: burma logistics - 7/21/2009 2:22:24 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		That's a good question. Pegu and the Woods E of Tauung Gyi are obvious choke points, but after that, there aren't alot of great choices, particularly if you want to defend the Burma Road (which I presume still means holding Lashio).

Rangoon isn't the complete dead-end it was on the stock WITP map, but it's pretty easy to flank anyway, particularly where that railway connects the two roadways north of Prome.

Mandalay isn't the fortress it used to be, because it is now on the correct side of the Irriwaddy. Shwebo is protected by the river, but withdrawing there uncovers Lashio, which presumably is the reason to defend Burma.

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RE: burma logistics - 7/21/2009 2:30:59 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
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From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Which is the correct simulation of Burma - its tough once the retreat starts

If you are sensible you over rule Hutton's plan for forward defence and dig in at Pegu behind the Sittang River.

Only problem is if you lose a fight there you retreat to Rangoon and it becomes a race to the north - not to mention the Japanese can and will try to flank you to the North towards mid Burma.

IF you can get 1st Burma and 17th Indian dug in (so total 7 Bde equivalents) and hold the Burma Frontier Force and Burma Rifles Bns to hold the rail line north plus bring in a couple of Divisions of 5th Chinese Army to hold Mandalay/Taung Gyi you have a shot at delaying the Japanese initial trhust.

The Chinese Divs start out very weak but it takes a remarkably small amount of time with rest to get them to 100 AV each.

As an allied player you then have th efollowing choices

18th British Div (3 Bdes)
44th and 45th Indian Bdes (2 Bdes)
6th and 7th AusDivs (6 Bdes)
7th Armoured Bde

Potentially you can commit a lot of force to Burma - having said that in PBEM as soon as those units are identifed in Burma I will land at Ceylon, Darwin, Perth, Akyab and Cox Bazaar and isolate them because the counterattack force is committed.


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RE: burma logistics - 7/21/2009 2:52:42 PM   
Jim D Burns


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac
I will land at Ceylon, Darwin, Perth, Akyab and Cox Bazaar and isolate them because the counterattack force is committed.


Which leads to the question, how many allied torpedo squadrons are available in early 42 for India and SEAC commands? Or are the 500lb bombs no longer tennis balls when it comes to penetrating armored ships?

Jim

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RE: burma logistics - 7/21/2009 2:56:31 PM   
Jim D Burns


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quote:

ORIGINAL: onhilotime
Someone posted this screen of Burma in AE....trying to figure out where I'll draw the defensive line against Japan


I'd defend the hex SE of Pegu (or are rivers pretty much worthless now?). Once that fell, I'd fall back to Shwebo and Lashio, with the Brits in Shwebo and the Chinese in Lashio. After that it's India, with a large mobile reserve kept on the rear area rails to react to any Japanese advances. Only brigades in the forward bases, no sense letting Japan see what you've got. Though Imphal should probably get a full division instead of a brigade.

Jim

< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 7/21/2009 3:01:36 PM >

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RE: burma logistics - 7/21/2009 3:15:04 PM   
onhilotime

 

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quote:

IF you can get 1st Burma and 17th Indian dug in (so total 7 Bde equivalents) and hold the Burma Frontier Force and Burma Rifles Bns to hold the rail line north plus bring in a couple of Divisions of 5th Chinese Army to hold Mandalay/Taung Gyi you have a shot at delaying the Japanese initial trhust.


I like the idea of a strong defense at Pegu, but reading your AAR against the AI made me think allied ground forces in Burma were useless until late 1942. I used to naval extract British and Dutch forces from Malaya and Sumatra to help hold Rangoon...but with the new port rules and restrictions this doesnt seem like a good option.

Hilotime

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Post #: 8
RE: burma logistics - 7/21/2009 3:46:15 PM   
Andy Mac

 

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From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Hutton and Wavell IRL insisted on holding Moulmien Smythe the commander of the ground wanted to be back behind the the Sittang river from day 1 as a result the allies were destroyed peicemeal.

The unknown question is would it have made a difference - my personal view it may have delayed the fall of Burma a week or two but would not have prevented it.

An allied player trying the same thing will face that same issue - Burma Div is heavily dependent on weak Burmese Rifle Squads and has very little in the way of supporting equipment.

17th Indian Div has three reasonable Bdes and an Indpt Bde that was attached during the fight in Burma (actually at various points both Q's commanded all the Bdes).

Fighting sensibly to a plan consolidating your defence, making no mistakes and prioritising your few replacement devices to Burma rather than Malaya will give you a shot at a short delay along the Sittang River (e.g. Pegu)

Reinforcing with all or some of the 5 Bdes sent to Malaya gives you an even better chance of holding on which is why most japanese players would be wise to drive for Pegu early.

Further reinforcing with the Chinese 5th Army and the 6 Australian Bdes will give you a damned fine shot at stopping the Japanese cold until they bring in substantial reinforcements BUT it leaves you very committed.

Andy


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Post #: 9
RE: burma logistics - 7/21/2009 4:22:11 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline 		From the perspective of a JFB:

Objective 1: Cut off Rangoon. Taking it isn't necessary early, just trapping the Brit troops there and cutting the supply lines is sufficient at first. Allies tend to abondon Rangoon anyway. Rangoon itself can be taken in due time.

Objective 2: Cut the Burma Road. Most important objective in Burma. You can effectively starve China by cutting the Burma Road. I would even consider taking Paoshan and Myitkyna to seal the deal.

Objective 3: Try to maintain air superiority over Northern Burma. This eventually becomes impossible without a lot of sweeps and a lot of luck.

I personally tend to stop in the Mandalay/Shwebo area for the simple fact that Burma is a quagmire and the logistics of going farther north is a nightmare. Akyab and Cox Bazaar are possible targets just to keep pressure on SE India.

So seeing my side you can kind of see what you should do to defend Burma...and honestly from the Allied side I would withdraw to a defensible position in the Mandalay/Shwebo/Lashio area and concentrate on keeping the Burma Road open, just abandon the rest early. Just my humble opinion though.

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RE: burma logistics - 7/21/2009 4:22:46 PM   
greg_slith


Posts: 490
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Status: offline 		Andy, Are the rivers no longer labeled on the map? My geography knowledge of the area is very limited.

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Post #: 11
RE: burma logistics - 7/21/2009 4:35:54 PM   
Curty

 

Posts: 269
Joined: 11/25/2005
From: Barnard Castle,Durham County,UK
Status: offline 		While we're on the subject....does anyone know whether the ai will try different strategies each time you start a new scenario/grand campaign?

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Post #: 12
RE: burma logistics - 7/21/2009 4:40:58 PM   
Andy Mac

 

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From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		I know but cannot say

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RE: burma logistics - 7/21/2009 4:42:06 PM   
Speedysteve

 

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Status: offline 		Which probably means yes there are options for the AI there

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Post #: 14
RE: burma logistics - 7/21/2009 4:43:28 PM   
Curty

 

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From: Barnard Castle,Durham County,UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

I know but cannot say


I was kind of hanging out for a yes actually!


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Post #: 15
RE: burma logistics - 7/21/2009 4:44:15 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		OK that was slightly unhelpfull so let me try to be more helpfull.

The AI does have some flexibility but not as much as I would like.

We managed to get an AI script selector squeezed in which will help for later customisation of scripts but there is only limited variations in what we are releasing with the game.

I don't want to say any more to avoid spoiling the suprises.

If you want to know more wait a week or two and I will start up an AI thread for folks that want to know the gory details with a big health warning that it could spoil the game if you read it

I do expect the AI to be an ongoing development over the next few weeks and months after release after you lot think of things I have missed

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Post #: 16
RE: burma logistics - 7/21/2009 4:48:09 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Its really hard guys with so many folks running around jumping on every morsel of info the temptation to read a thread about the AI is huge but if I go into any more details I will spoil the game.

After you have the game and the feeding frenzy has calmed down I will explain more but I really dont want to go into detail on the AI until its out there because it will spoil ift for folks.

Basically if I say anything everyone will read it and have part of the game ruined.

When a health warning has a chance of being effective I will discuss more but for now I need to not say much more

Broadly you will all thank me for keeping my gob shut for now

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Post #: 17
RE: burma logistics - 7/21/2009 4:49:04 PM   
Curty

 

Posts: 269
Joined: 11/25/2005
From: Barnard Castle,Durham County,UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

OK that was slightly unhelpfull so let me try to be more helpfull.

The AI does have some flexibility but not as much as I would like.

We managed to get an AI script selector squeezed in which will help for later customisation of scripts but there is only limited variations in what we are releasing with the game.

I don't want to say any more to avoid spoiling the suprises.

If you want to know more wait a week or two and I will start up an AI thread for folks that want to know the gory details with a big health warning that it could spoil the game if you read it

I do expect the AI to be an ongoing development over the next few weeks and months after release after you lot think of things I have missed


I realise that even if the ai had even 1 alternative strategy that would DOUBLE the value of the game to the ai players who i beleive are the majority

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RE: burma logistics - 7/21/2009 4:54:12 PM   
Curty

 

Posts: 269
Joined: 11/25/2005
From: Barnard Castle,Durham County,UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Its really hard guys with so many folks running around jumping on every morsel of info the temptation to read a thread about the AI is huge but if I go into any more details I will spoil the game.

After you have the game and the feeding frenzy has calmed down I will explain more but I really dont want to go into detail on the AI until its out there because it will spoil ift for folks.

Basically if I say anything everyone will read it and have part of the game ruined.

When a health warning has a chance of being effective I will discuss more but for now I need to not say much more

Broadly you will all thank me for keeping my gob shut for now


That thread realy would be too much information for me, it's enough for me to know there are extra treats in store with AE


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Post #: 19
RE: burma logistics - 7/21/2009 5:12:01 PM   
herwin

 

Posts: 6059
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From: Sunderland, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: onhilotime

Someone posted this screen of Burma in AE....trying to figure out where I'll draw the defensive line against Japan...in WITP I always holed up on the Irawaddy...but I dont see how I can run supplies into Shwebo. Will supplies cross the river from Imphal?

Where would you defend India?

Thanks,
Hilotime



Historically, the three high-capacity supply routes in Northern Burma were the Chindwin and Irrawaddy Rivers and the railway around Mandalay and extending to Myitkyina. The Burma Road was all-weather from Mandalay to Bhamo and fair-weather to Myitkyina and on to China. On the Indian side, there was the Brahmaputra River, the Assam Railway, and the all-weather road from Dimapur to Imphal and Tamu. The Ledo Road extended from Ledo to Myitkyina, linking up with the Burma Road there, which crossed into China. The boundary between the Japanese and the Commonwealth was defined by the supply divide. The CW drive into Central Burma after the monsoon ended in 1944 was air-mobile and air-supplied in part. The 'high'-capacity supply routes were by road and by river (transhipping at Kalewa).

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RE: burma logistics - 7/21/2009 5:21:03 PM   
Curty

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

I do expect the AI to be an ongoing development over the next few weeks and months after release after you lot think of things I have missed


Does this mean tha ai will get improvements thru patch updates!....hope so

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RE: burma logistics - 7/21/2009 5:57:28 PM   
DrewMatrix


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Imphal/Kohima/Chittagong.


I agree. And let them come to you. Then more they put in the jungle, far from the sea and far towards India the better. Then, when you are stronger, you can sienze some port along the coast and the Japanese have to rush back to avoid being cut off.

The more time they spend moving east, then back west (and not actually fighting) the better IMO



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RE: burma logistics - 7/21/2009 6:02:09 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac
Its really hard guys with so many folks running around jumping on every morsel of info the temptation to read a thread about the AI is huge but if I go into any more details I will spoil the game.


Absolutely, I'd say you should tell them NOTHING about the AI, let them find out for themselves.


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Post #: 23
RE: burma logistics - 7/21/2009 7:34:28 PM   
Local Yokel


Posts: 1494
Joined: 2/4/2007
From: Somerset, U.K.
Status: offline 		The question of whether/how the Japanese can block overland supply to China via the Burma or Ledo Roads probably has a major bearing on what they do in Burma and what the Allied response should be. However, how the Japanese can accomplish this is no longer clear to me. The AE manual says this:

"For the Allies, if a rail/road/trail path free of Japanese units between Tsuyung and Ledo or between Tsuyung and Rangoon can be traced, than each day, 500 supply points per turn are added to Tsuyung."

So what's a "trail"? Here's what the manual says:

"Railway Trail: Railway lines that do not have co-located roads, are able to be used by ground units by following the railway roadbeds. That is, by walking or driving along the railway roadbeds, rather than using actual trains. In game terms this ability is handled by the presence of the “railway trail” road type along all railways that do not coexist with main or secondary roads. No other trails exist on the map other than along such railway lines. The existence of foot trails is assumed in all hexes on the map that do not have roads defined, and this is accounted for in the off-road movement rates. Therefore there are no actual “trails” defined on the map except for along railway lines as described here."

It appears to be a straightforward matter for the Japanese to block the original Burma Road by taking Rangoon. But what about the Ledo/Stilwell Road? There certainly aren't any visible 'railway trails' - or any other road or railway - connecting Ledo with Myitkyina. That implies that supplies can never reach China via the Ledo Road (and in reality the first convoy to traverse the Ledo Road didn't do so until January 1945), in which case the Japanese have no need to go up the Irrawaddy to deny China this source of supply. But if supply can pass over the 'assumed' foot trails in the forest/jungle south of Ledo then 'closure' of the Ledo Road is apparently impossible.

I think it has been suggested that the game checks whether this supply route to China is blocked just by examining ownership of bases along the routes of the Burma and Ledo Roads. Is that so? If it is, then the manual is presumably wrong.

Whilst on the subject of supply, I can't find anything in the AE manual that corresponds with the original WitP manual's entry on what constitutes the maximum supply path value and how it's calculated. In WitP section 14.3 of the manual gives the formula. In the AE manual the closest corresponding section seems to be 15.3, but no formula is given there. If the formula is set out somewhere else, can someone please tell me where I can find it?

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RE: burma logistics - 7/21/2009 7:48:40 PM   
Curty

 

Posts: 269
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From: Barnard Castle,Durham County,UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Local Yokel



So what's a "trail"? Here's what the manual says:

"Railway Trail: Railway lines that do not have co-located roads, are able to be used by ground units by following the railway roadbeds. That is, by walking or driving along the railway roadbeds, rather than using actual trains. In game terms this ability is handled by the presence of the “railway trail” road type along all railways that do not coexist with main or secondary roads. No other trails exist on the map other than along such railway lines. The existence of foot trails is assumed in all hexes on the map that do not have roads defined, and this is accounted for in the off-road movement rates. Therefore there are no actual “trails” defined on the map except for along railway lines as described here."



That's a long way of saying "it's the railways"


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RE: burma logistics - 7/21/2009 8:01:28 PM   
HistoryGuy


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From: Woodbridge, VA
Status: offline 		I agree with Erik, its more "fun" to find out the hard way.........

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Post #: 26
RE: burma logistics - 7/21/2009 8:44:48 PM   
mussey


Posts: 683
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From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

I do expect the AI to be an ongoing development over the next few weeks and months after release after you lot think of things I have missed


Thanks for your commitment. Anything to keep the AI less predictable will make AE more playable in the many years ahead.


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Post #: 27
RE: burma logistics - 7/21/2009 9:16:42 PM   
Wirraway_Ace


Posts: 1400
Joined: 10/8/2007
From: Austin / Brisbane
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Local Yokel

The question of whether/how the Japanese can block overland supply to China via the Burma or Ledo Roads probably has a major bearing on what they do in Burma and what the Allied response should be. However, how the Japanese can accomplish this is no longer clear to me. The AE manual says this:

"For the Allies, if a rail/road/trail path free of Japanese units between Tsuyung and Ledo or between Tsuyung and Rangoon can be traced, than each day, 500 supply points per turn are added to Tsuyung."

So what's a "trail"? Here's what the manual says:

"Railway Trail: Railway lines that do not have co-located roads, are able to be used by ground units by following the railway roadbeds. That is, by walking or driving along the railway roadbeds, rather than using actual trains. In game terms this ability is handled by the presence of the “railway trail” road type along all railways that do not coexist with main or secondary roads. No other trails exist on the map other than along such railway lines. The existence of foot trails is assumed in all hexes on the map that do not have roads defined, and this is accounted for in the off-road movement rates. Therefore there are no actual “trails” defined on the map except for along railway lines as described here."

It appears to be a straightforward matter for the Japanese to block the original Burma Road by taking Rangoon. But what about the Ledo/Stilwell Road? There certainly aren't any visible 'railway trails' - or any other road or railway - connecting Ledo with Myitkyina. That implies that supplies can never reach China via the Ledo Road (and in reality the first convoy to traverse the Ledo Road didn't do so until January 1945), in which case the Japanese have no need to go up the Irrawaddy to deny China this source of supply. But if supply can pass over the 'assumed' foot trails in the forest/jungle south of Ledo then 'closure' of the Ledo Road is apparently impossible.

I think it has been suggested that the game checks whether this supply route to China is blocked just by examining ownership of bases along the routes of the Burma and Ledo Roads. Is that so? If it is, then the manual is presumably wrong.


I assumed you would have to establish ownership to the secondary road hex E of Lashio along with Lashio.

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Post #: 28
RE: burma logistics - 7/21/2009 9:50:03 PM   
mussey


Posts: 683
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From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline 		As with history, I always seem to get beat up retreating from Burma. I tried to defend the rivers but get out-flanked or pushed back, and then once in the open - get pummelled. As for me, the first sign of a Jap trooper on Burma soil and I'm heading for the hills of India. Bug-out dude! 'Imphal or bust'.

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Post #: 29
RE: burma logistics - 7/21/2009 9:59:06 PM   
herwin

 

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Curty


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Its really hard guys with so many folks running around jumping on every morsel of info the temptation to read a thread about the AI is huge but if I go into any more details I will spoil the game.

After you have the game and the feeding frenzy has calmed down I will explain more but I really dont want to go into detail on the AI until its out there because it will spoil ift for folks.

Basically if I say anything everyone will read it and have part of the game ruined.

When a health warning has a chance of being effective I will discuss more but for now I need to not say much more

Broadly you will all thank me for keeping my gob shut for now


That thread realy would be too much information for me, it's enough for me to know there are extra treats in store with AE



I love your sig! It happens, but with killer whales, not sharks. BTW, the breath of a killer whale is very, very fishy...

_____________________________

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"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

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