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RE: War in China - 7/16/2009 1:25:06 PM

Mike Parker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Parker

I think he is saying though, that with the borked up USE levels that he should look at his current game and consider S/O 41 as the time to hit the CW.� He does get the benefit of the trade with the US longer than he should, but as long as he considers his timetable in China to be limited by what is considered a proper date to attack the Wallies, then he should be good!

IMO, the proper date for Japan to go to war with the CW/US is as late as possible. Any events that push that date later in the war should be taken advantage of by Japan.

The US can't kill Axis soldiers if they aren't in the war yet.

That's the best place for them.....sitting on the West Coast watching the smoke rise in Asia.

Good Hunting.

MR

I agree; however, in this sort of thing using the event 'The US Entry Chit draw for taking Chinese cities is not working properly' would rather defeat the whole purpose wouldn't it? I agree with you the proper time is to delay the inevitable conflict with the CW and USA, but by looking at his play so far, it is safe I think to say he has time in China till about S/O 41 and at that time his OOB should be built up and positioned to strike the CW holdings in the far east.

IF everything was working, and the USE was low due to luck of the draw, then I wholeheartedly agree, put off the attack against the CW as long as possible. *ponders* I might be sticking my foot in my mouth, because I haven't really thought this statement out... and it would be impossible I think, but if the USE were horribly retarded, as Japan I would NEVER attack the CW, I would let 1945 come and go before attacking.

(in reply to Mad Russian)

Post #: 151

RE: War in China - 7/16/2009 7:46:11 PM

coregames

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Parker

...if the USE were horribly retarded, as Japan I would NEVER attack the CW, I would let 1945 come and go before attacking.

Got to have the NEI oil, and some would argue, the sooner the better. It's a trade-off, but I've seen a Nov/Dec 1940 DoW on the CW by Japan, and it paid dividends, even though they had to jump early on the US as well (Jul/Aug 1941). The key is that the CW is so unprepared at that point, and it might even lead to the fall of India if the TERR draws are unfavorable.

If you avoid ever attacking the CW positions, then the allies will begin their drive on your interior lines from much closer bases.

< Message edited by coregames -- 7/16/2009 7:49:33 PM >

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Keith Henderson

(in reply to Mike Parker)

Post #: 152

RE: War in China - 7/16/2009 9:09:29 PM

micheljq

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How much saved oil should Japan have when it enters war with USA?

(in reply to coregames)

Post #: 153

RE: War in China - 7/16/2009 9:12:43 PM

Mike Parker

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Well sure. But I was in the fantasy land where the USE never gets high enough for the US to DOW Japan. In such a situation, as Japan I would put off the DOW on the CW, and would take on China and the USSR (assuming Germany is launching a 41 Barb).

The point though is that in my opinion the Japanese player needs to DOW the CW as late as they think they can get by with it. As you say they need the NEI Oil.

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Post #: 154

RE: War in China - 7/16/2009 9:30:01 PM

sajbalk

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NEI oil is crucial, but also important are the US entry of options of CW reinforce the Pacific and CW reinforce the NEI> Having either happen before a JAP DOW could be catastrophic.

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(in reply to Mike Parker)

Post #: 155

RE: War in China - 7/16/2009 9:48:57 PM

paulderynck

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quote:

ORIGINAL: micheljq

How much saved oil should Japan have when it enters war with USA?

I strive to have 6 stored oil plus both Synth in operation before DoWing CW and/or U.S.

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(in reply to micheljq)

Post #: 156

RE: War in China - 7/16/2009 10:27:46 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: micheljq

How much saved oil should Japan have when it enters war with USA?

I aim at around 15 when I play Japan, saving 1 per turn in addition to the 4 initial that I have. There are about 12 turns before war with the USA / CW, so 1 per turn is OK for me.

I then try to keep this reserve through 42 & 43. It garantie me about 4-5 turns of possible full action against the US & CW, even with all oil cut from me. It can also be used as emergency resources for my factories in I need more war material in 42-44.

(in reply to micheljq)

Post #: 157

RE: War in China - 7/17/2009 7:09:08 PM

lomyrin

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July/August 41 axis impulse 6.

Japanese are following the retreating Chinese as best they can with storm in the south and a stalemate in the north. The large Japanese Marine is slowly moving towards ChangSha from where they can rail to the coast. Japan still has time to deal a few more blows to the Nationalists before they will look southeastwards for the next major fight.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 158

RE: War in China - 7/19/2009 12:28:55 AM

lomyrin

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July/August 41 Japan's impulse 8 still has storm in the south and a fine weather stalemate in the north.

Japan did continue to bring more force towards Kweiyang and movedd the large Marine anotherstep on the long road to the coast for other duties.

The turn ended on a 2 and for the next turn Japan is going to hit the CW and NEI, the forces for that are in position. They will also take out Rabaul and place a unit in Kwajalein. This then will conclude this example of the war in China.

China's builds now are at 4 BP and Japan is at 16 with some 12 oil saved. Undoubtedly China will eventually regain some territory but the are not likely to be a threat to Japan until perhaps 44. At present Japan is maintaining a garrison of over 20 so there will be no partisans for a while at least.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 159

RE: War in China - 7/20/2009 6:15:54 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin
This then will conclude this example of the war in China.

Will there be another ?

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Post #: 160

RE: War in China - 7/20/2009 7:10:16 PM

oscar72se

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Nicely done Iomyrin. I have enjoyed your reports a great deal, thank you. I am however a little bit curious about what would have happened if Japan decided to utilize her aircraft for strategic bombardment. The way I see it, Japan could send in 4 factors to Chengtu, unintercepted... That would mean +1 on the chart. On a 5 would it would be bye, bye oil (60% chance/risk depending on point of view).

Regards,
Oscar

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 161

RE: War in China - 7/20/2009 7:34:13 PM

micheljq

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quote:

ORIGINAL: oscar72se

Nicely done Iomyrin. I have enjoyed your reports a great deal, thank you. I am however a little bit curious about what would have happened if Japan decided to utilize her aircraft for strategic bombardment. The way I see it, Japan could send in 4 factors to Chengtu, unintercepted... That would mean +1 on the chart. On a 5 would it would be bye, bye oil (60% chance/risk depending on point of view).

Regards,
Oscar

Nice idea.

Japan could also rely on a strategy of heavy bombardement on China, problem it that this can consume a lot of oil, which Japan does not have in excess.

(in reply to oscar72se)

Post #: 162

RE: War in China - 7/20/2009 8:04:47 PM

oscar72se

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Well, much is gained for the japanese player if that oil "dissappears". It is not fun playing China without oil and getting your only HQ flipped...

Regards,
Oscar

(in reply to micheljq)

Post #: 163

RE: War in China - 7/20/2009 9:21:50 PM

sajbalk

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Thanks for all your hard work. Please do another, if possible.

As to strat bombing ... a good idea. However China should put its oil in one of the far NW cities. Cheng-Tu is too close.

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Post #: 164

RE: War in China - 7/20/2009 9:35:00 PM

Orm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: oscar72se

Well, much is gained for the japanese player if that oil "dissappears". It is not fun playing China without oil and getting your only HQ flipped...

Regards,
Oscar

Allies should strive to get at least one more oil into China before the Burma road is closed by Japanese control.

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Post #: 165

RE: War in China - 7/20/2009 9:45:41 PM

peskpesk

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin
This then will conclude this example of the war in China.

Will there be another ?

Yes please!

And maybe this times the soviets could rattle the sabres loudly at the Manchuria border and threaten to attack! And please keep at exact build/losses record count.

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Post #: 166

RE: War in China - 7/20/2009 10:45:40 PM

brian brian

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mucho thanks lomyrin!

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Post #: 167

RE: War in China - 7/20/2009 11:52:42 PM

paulderynck

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quote:

ORIGINAL: oscar72se

Well, much is gained for the japanese player if that oil "dissappears". It is not fun playing China without oil and getting your only HQ flipped...

Regards,
Oscar

This is why you usually find the Oil located in Kashgar.

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Post #: 168

RE: War in China - 7/21/2009 2:09:32 AM

BallyJ

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Thanks for this. I have enjoyed your reports. Come on release date!!! The new China looks great.

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Post #: 169

RE: War in China - 7/21/2009 11:18:31 AM

Joseignacio

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Thanks, I was also following and enjoying it.

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Post #: 170

RE: War in China - 7/21/2009 11:49:15 AM

oscar72se

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: oscar72se

Well, much is gained for the japanese player if that oil "dissappears". It is not fun playing China without oil and getting your only HQ flipped...

Regards,
Oscar

This is why you usually find the Oil located in Kashgar.

True, but you can't protect yourself from everything. IIRC there are japanese planes with 22 range and a strat-factor.

(in reply to paulderynck)

Post #: 171

RE: War in China - 7/21/2009 12:46:18 PM

Neilster

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Any chance of a Guadacanal scenario? It would give people a feel for naval combat in MWiF. For those that don't know, this can be quite unpredictable.

Cheers, Neilster

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Post #: 172

RE: War in China - 7/21/2009 1:49:06 PM

micheljq

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quote:

ORIGINAL: oscar72se

Well, much is gained for the japanese player if that oil "dissappears". It is not fun playing China without oil and getting your only HQ flipped...

Regards,
Oscar

I speak about a long and heavy strategic bombardment of China, lower it's production and even destroy some blue factories. The chinese oil coup is easy to counter, just put the chinese oil far far away in the east, like in Urumchi. To reorganise, you just need a basic supply path of any lenght.

(in reply to oscar72se)

Post #: 173

RE: War in China - 7/21/2009 1:52:34 PM

micheljq

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quote:

ORIGINAL: oscar72se

True, but you can't protect yourself from everything. IIRC there are japanese planes with 22 range and a strat-factor.

I don't think Japan has this sort of plane early on. But again, China begins with a FTR in the setup, just put the FTR in the same city as oil, far away in the west, instead of having that FTR destroyed by the usually better japanese fighters.

(in reply to oscar72se)

Post #: 174

RE: War in China - 7/21/2009 3:21:08 PM

Mike Parker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: micheljq

quote:

ORIGINAL: oscar72se

True, but you can't protect yourself from everything. IIRC there are japanese planes with 22 range and a strat-factor.

I don't think Japan has this sort of plane early on. But again, China begins with a FTR in the setup, just put the FTR in the same city as oil, far away in the west, instead of having that FTR destroyed by the usually better japanese fighters.

They start 1939 with a 19 Range plane with a strat factors the H6K Mavis. A pretty valuable aircraft for them since its an ATR. In 41 they get a 22 Range G4M1 Betty, but that is a little late in the war.

I agree with putting the fighter with the oil, its not like you get much use of it elsewhere, the Japanese can usually manage to have a 4 factor Ftr (or CVP even) against your 3.

(in reply to micheljq)

Post #: 175

RE: War in China - 7/21/2009 5:36:56 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Parker
They start 1939 with a 19 Range plane with a strat factors the H6K Mavis. A pretty valuable aircraft for them since its an ATR. In 41 they get a 22 Range G4M1 Betty, but that is a little late in the war.

I agree with putting the fighter with the oil, its not like you get much use of it elsewhere, the Japanese can usually manage to have a 4 factor Ftr (or CVP even) against your 3.

Japan does not start the Global War 1939-1945 scenario with the 19 ranged Mavis.
They have 3 FTR2 from which 2 must be put on the map.
They have 3 LND2 from which 2 must be put on the map.
They have 2 NAV2 from which 1 must be put on the map.
They have 1 NAV3 from which 1 must be put on the map.

The H6K Mavis is an ATR4 that enters the force pool in 1939, but it is not in game at start. It must be built for 4 of the 10 or so initial Japanese BP,and will at best be in game in M/J 40 after 4 turns of building.

(in reply to Mike Parker)

Post #: 176

RE: War in China - 7/21/2009 6:33:20 PM

Mike Parker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Parker
They start 1939 with a 19 Range plane with a strat factors the H6K Mavis. A pretty valuable aircraft for them since its an ATR. In 41 they get a 22 Range G4M1 Betty, but that is a little late in the war.

I agree with putting the fighter with the oil, its not like you get much use of it elsewhere, the Japanese can usually manage to have a 4 factor Ftr (or CVP even) against your 3.

Japan does not start the Global War 1939-1945 scenario with the 19 ranged Mavis.
They have 3 FTR2 from which 2 must be put on the map.
They have 3 LND2 from which 2 must be put on the map.
They have 2 NAV2 from which 1 must be put on the map.
They have 1 NAV3 from which 1 must be put on the map.

The H6K Mavis is an ATR4 that enters the force pool in 1939, but it is not in game at start. It must be built for 4 of the 10 or so initial Japanese BP,and will at best be in game in M/J 40 after 4 turns of building.

I should have said "They start the 1939 scenario with only one long range bomber in their force pool the H6K Mavis which is an ATR.

I meant it was available in '39, it could be built (and often will be for its ATR as well as bombing) and it would then be capable of potentially being used against the chinese stored oil as was suggested.

I was trying to refute the idea that a 22 range bomber was available to get to the oil early, and well the only possibility is the Mavis early on, the Japanese don' get a 22 range bomber till '41, then they have to build it, then deploy it in china, then pretty quickly they will need to be attacking the CW so its pretty unlikely the G4M1 Betty will really get a shot at any stored oil.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 177

RE: War in China - 7/21/2009 6:38:35 PM

morgil

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I dont recall the cost of these planes, but i belive JPN start out with a 14 range Nell, 1 or 2 strat.
If you dont need this plane for partisan checkerage and can afford the oil, it can be quite helpfull to strat the chinese.
If you get the 2strat one, its 40% chance of a BP every turn, assuming you dont get intercepted, and that is about a MIL/GAR and an INF removed from the last picture in the scenario above...

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Post #: 178

RE: War in China - 7/21/2009 10:10:57 PM

Mike Parker

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Morgil,

You are right the JPN do have a 14 range NAV with 1 or 2 (depending on draw) Strat factors. Not sure if it has the legs to reach out to get the on-map oil the chinese keep socked away though.

(in reply to morgil)

Post #: 179

RE: War in China - 7/22/2009 2:03:27 AM

paulderynck

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Parker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Parker
They start 1939 with a 19 Range plane with a strat factors the H6K Mavis. A pretty valuable aircraft for them since its an ATR. In 41 they get a 22 Range G4M1 Betty, but that is a little late in the war.

I agree with putting the fighter with the oil, its not like you get much use of it elsewhere, the Japanese can usually manage to have a 4 factor Ftr (or CVP even) against your 3.

Japan does not start the Global War 1939-1945 scenario with the 19 ranged Mavis.
They have 3 FTR2 from which 2 must be put on the map.
They have 3 LND2 from which 2 must be put on the map.
They have 2 NAV2 from which 1 must be put on the map.
They have 1 NAV3 from which 1 must be put on the map.

The H6K Mavis is an ATR4 that enters the force pool in 1939, but it is not in game at start. It must be built for 4 of the 10 or so initial Japanese BP,and will at best be in game in M/J 40 after 4 turns of building.

I should have said "They start the 1939 scenario with only one long range bomber in their force pool the H6K Mavis which is an ATR.

I meant it was available in '39, it could be built (and often will be for its ATR as well as bombing) and it would then be capable of potentially being used against the chinese stored oil as was suggested.

I was trying to refute the idea that a 22 range bomber was available to get to the oil early, and well the only possibility is the Mavis early on, the Japanese don' get a 22 range bomber till '41, then they have to build it, then deploy it in china, then pretty quickly they will need to be attacking the CW so its pretty unlikely the G4M1 Betty will really get a shot at any stored oil.

In the boardgame the Mavis would still have to be based in the desert 2 hexes N.E. of Lan Chow to be in range of Kashgar. Having a plane based there in supply is not a simple matter for the Japanese.

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(in reply to Mike Parker)

Post #: 180