BGNW bug with skirmisher melee and more?

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BGNW bug with skirmisher melee and more? - 7/25/2009 11:27:12 AM

ParJ

Posts: 38
Joined: 1/19/2006
Status: offline

Hi,

I bought this game (BGNW) about two months ago and am having great fun with it. I have spotted some problems though.

In 9.2.4 in the manual there's a note that melee losses against skirmishers are reduced by 80%. When I look at the result in melee combat and compare ti the melee table, it seems that the 80% loss reduction is applied on the skirmisher unit.

Another thing that I have tried to figure out is the ranged fire modifiers. When in column (and having moved) the fire factor, even for a 900 strong (28 SP) Allied infantry unit, is usually 1. When an infantry unit is stationary and in line formation then fire factor seem to be correct according to the manual. The manual is for Napolen in Russia, and this was found in Prelude. Can anyone liste the correct modifications for ranged fire?

The melee combat tables might be fine, but the results from a 3:1 melee with a 6 roll is 2/5, resulting in 50 loss for attacker and 125 for defender regardless if combat was 600:200 or 75:25 (again this is what the manual says the result will be). Using a smaller or larger attack strength must have an impact on the losses in melee.

The manual states 50% reduction in ranged fire when in comlumn for Russian units and 66% for French, but I can't find the modification for Allied units anywhere.

When playing in dusk, the show visible hexes view doesn't change. It still shows a non X hex even it the hex is more than 4 away from the hot spot.

But overall a fun game and I'll try to convince one of my wargame frieds to purchase a copy so I can play agains a real opponent.

Oto

Post #: 1

RE: BGNW bug with skirmisher melee and more? - 7/25/2009 2:55:34 PM

Andy Moss

Posts: 102
Joined: 5/14/2007
From: Birmingham UK
Status: offline

Hi

I recommend playing by email certainly.

Forget the manuals. Much changed between them and production. And then more in the patches. Unless the Matrix manuals have been changed from the Talonsoft versions.

Meleeing skirmishers is a nightmare as for combat resolution purposes they are classed as formed units. It's the attacker that suffers a penalty. What's not in the manual is that skirmishers have a facing, so melee them in flank, and don't fire before you melee, and you get a better result.

(in reply to ParJ)

Post #: 2

RE: BGNW bug with skirmisher melee and more? - 7/26/2009 4:34:59 AM

simovitch

Posts: 5488
Joined: 2/14/2006
Status: offline

These are great questions and it's a shame there is no real support for these classic titles. It would not have taken much effort to update the manuals to actually conform to the final product that came out of Talonsoft. Both CW and NAP have conflicting rules that even the readme's don't clarify.

In PTW, if you just copy the file called "notes.hlp" into each of the subfolders, the player would be able to reference the parameter data and all the other good stuff pertaining to the campaign, instead of getting the "NIR" help files. Same for Waterloo.

quote:

In 9.2.4 in the manual there's a note that melee losses against skirmishers are reduced by 80%. When I look at the result in melee combat and compare ti the melee table, it seems that the 80% loss reduction is applied on the skirmisher unit.

Yes, the skirmishers are favored. I believe this represents the fact that skirmishers are spread out and not so easy to destroy in melee.

quote:

Another thing that I have tried to figure out is the ranged fire modifiers. When in column (and having moved) the fire factor, even for a 900 strong (28 SP) Allied infantry unit, is usually 1. When an infantry unit is stationary and in line formation then fire factor seem to be correct according to the manual. The manual is for Napolen in Russia, and this was found in Prelude. Can anyone liste the correct modifications for ranged fire?

see above re: help files.

quote:

The melee combat tables might be fine, but the results from a 3:1 melee with a 6 roll is 2/5, resulting in 50 loss for attacker and 125 for defender regardless if combat was 600:200 or 75:25 (again this is what the manual says the result will be). Using a smaller or larger attack strength must have an impact on the losses in melee.

That's just the way it is. you don't see the lower numbers much anyway, unless they are skirmishers.

quote:

The manual states 50% reduction in ranged fire when in comlumn for Russian units and 66% for French, but I can't find the modification for Allied units anywhere.

Good catch, and one I never noticed. The factror for firing in column is not even in the PTW or Waterloo pdt file. French columns are far more potent in NIR than at waterloo. I doubt this is working as design and is probably a bug.

quote:

When playing in dusk, the show visible hexes view doesn't change. It still shows a non X hex even it the hex is more than 4 away from the hot spot.

that's just the way it is, visible hexes, not LOS.

_____________________________

simovitch

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Post #: 3

RE: BGNW bug with skirmisher melee and more? - 7/26/2009 2:11:40 PM

simovitch

Posts: 5488
Joined: 2/14/2006
Status: offline

quote:

The manual states 50% reduction in ranged fire when in comlumn for Russian units and 66% for French, but I can't find the modification for Allied units anywhere.

EDIT: I finally found this at the Napoleonic Archives. For the love of God why is this not in the manual? or at least the PTW or WL readme file (where all that helpful information about playing on Windows 95 and 3.X can be found)

? This is one example of several discrepancies with the manuals for both BGNW and BGCW.

quote:

RANGED FIRE

1. Fire from infantry in column is reduced by 80%
2. Fire from infantry in square is reduced by 75%
3. Fire from infantry in 4-rank is reduced by 25 %
4. Fire from infantry in 2-rank is increased by 50%
5. Fire from infantry in disorder is reduced by 50%
6. Fire in the Offensive Fire Phase from units that moved in the Movement Phase is reduced by 50%
7. Fire against skirmisher units is reduced by 75%
8. Artillery fire vs. infantry in column or square is increased by 50%
9. Infantry ranged fire vs. infantry in column or square is increased by 25%
10. Ranged fire against limbered artillery is increased by 50%

And no, I don't want to "forget the manuals" they are one of the most important part of the gaming experience for me. I didn't own these in the Talonsoft days and there's no excuse for this kind of wanton disregard for the customer's desire to know how the firing mechanics work. It would have been better to leave out the "50% reduction in ranged fire when in comlumn for Russian units and 66% for French" statement from the manual.

For the time I have spent hunting through the internet archives for some of these old rules I could have edited the manual for matrix and submitted it back for a patch release.

< Message edited by simovitch -- 7/26/2009 3:44:16 PM >

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simovitch

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RE: BGNW bug with skirmisher melee and more? - 8/1/2009 7:22:54 PM

1NWCG

Posts: 238
Joined: 4/18/2005
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Yeah infantry firing in column is severally reduced and often does not produce the results needed. Another thing to note, often battery counter fire is pointless unless up pretty close or if you have a larger battery, ie Russian 12 SP or Prussian 8 SP. Also don't use artillery versus skirms too much, a waste of ammo.

Do give playing against someone a try and if you like it, check out the Clubs in my signature for more gaming and fun.

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Wargame Clubs - http://www.wargame.ch

The Blitz - http://www.theblitz.org/

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Post #: 5

RE: BGNW bug with skirmisher melee and more? - 8/16/2009 2:51:22 PM

ParJ

Posts: 38
Joined: 1/19/2006
Status: offline

Thanks to all three of you for clearing out my questions. I'll try to find a PBEM opponent to play any of the larger AOW scenarios. What's your opinion on the Line movement restriction optional rule, is it more historically correct to use it? With the column reduction of 80% it is still better (for fire results) to be in line formation and disordered than it would be to be in column and undisordered.

Oto

(in reply to 1NWCG)

Post #: 6

RE: BGNW bug with skirmisher melee and more? - 8/16/2009 4:24:30 PM

Andy Moss

Posts: 102
Joined: 5/14/2007
From: Birmingham UK
Status: offline

I personally prefer Line Movement Restriction off. Arguably the mud at Waterloo may have caused problems, whereas in PTW and NIR the ground was dry. But a disordered line unit (mostly allied) is pretty much a sitting duck and quickly isolated with gamey tactics. So it's really, in BGW, a rule that favours the French. I'd probably alter the pdt to prevent lines moving so fast forward : in NIR they are reduced. In Waterloo they should be reduced further.

Generally speaking in these games it's rather too much melee so as to rout and isolate an opponent the destroy en mase with zoc kills. Firefights aren't commonplace in the games.

(in reply to ParJ)

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RE: BGNW bug with skirmisher melee and more? - 8/23/2009 2:44:22 AM

1NWCG

Posts: 238
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline

Yeah as what Andy stated. Particular to the case of the Allies at Waterloo, you'll be ripped to shreds and the French cav will just ride all over you. The other issue is hexes that have units in lines, that have multiple units in it, will pass the artillery fire to all the units, so everyone looses men in the hex and losses a lot to compared to column....sadly the series is a lot of melee and panzer type moves...

If you want to know more about the modifiers and some various tactical practices, my one Club has some good writeups on it: http://battleground-club.de/tricks_mieszko.html

Also often people will use House rules to cut down on the gamey parts of the games, Check out this list we use too: http://battleground-club.de/regeln-english.html If you need help understanding a rule, feel free to ask. I can't recall if I cleaned up the wording or not. The English version was originally written by a German member, so it can have an odd way of wording it.....

Some things to help you out!

_____________________________

Wargame Clubs - http://www.wargame.ch

The Blitz - http://www.theblitz.org/

Two of the Internet's Oldest Wargaming Collectives

(in reply to Andy Moss)

Post #: 8

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