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ASW Test - 6/2/2002 5:49:25 PM   
juliet7bravo

 

Posts: 894
Joined: 5/30/2001
Status: offline 		Test parameters;

Modified Scenario #17 used, head to head play, all settings standard. Goro Island turned into IJN base with 10k fuel, 10k supply. 6 IJN I class subs positioned in Goro port with original crew/commander ratings. All USN air/naval units removed from Noumea.

USN air units stationed at Noumea;

VP-9; 12 AC, exp/morale=100/100, commander rated 99/99
VP-11; 12 AC, exp/morale=100/100, commander rated 99/99
VP-23; 12 AC, exp/morale=100/100, commander rated 99/99

Units armed with original MG's and 2 x Mk 13 torps.

1st turn IJN sub formed into 6 TF's, set to patrol in the 6 hexes immediately adjoining Noumea.

(1) USN patrol AC set on ASW 100%, @6000 ft. Game ran through on 24 hour cycles for 30 days.

2 day break, subs return to refuel and return to station, squadrons set to rest.

(2) USN patrol AC set on ASW 100%, @3000 ft. Game ran through on 24 hour cycles for 30 days.

2 day break, subs return to refuel and return to station, squadrons set to rest.

(3) USN patrol AC set on ASW 100%, @1000 ft. Game ran through on 24 hour cycles for 30 days.

2 day break, subs return to refuel and return to station, squadrons set to rest.

(4) Exact same overall setup, PBY's set on Naval Search...IJN light surface TF with 2 CL, 4 DD moved into position directly off Noumea.

TF is not detected by the patrol bombers until 2 hexes NNE of the main island of Esprito Santo. During the course of 7 days the USN AC flew over the IJN TF without attacking.

RESULTS: min sub sightings = 0, max sub sightings = 3 (on any single day). Average number of sightings @38% = 2. Sightings fell off dramatically during bad weather and at 1000'. 2 subs were never detected at all while on station (I suspect the hexes are considered "deep water").

Not a single successful attack was carried out by AC from the USN patrol squadrons during this 90 day test under optimal conditions...zero, zilch, nada.

(5) Exact same setup, except the PBY's are configured with twin forward mounted .30's, L/R mounted .50's, and a 3000 lb bomb load of 6 x 500 lbs bombs.

First turn, perfect weather, I-4 is detected in the shallow coastal water directly off Noumea...hit twice and sinks immediately. Test aborted at that point.

Conclusions;

(1) The Mk 13 torpedo loadout in the game is NOT the correct loadout for PBY patrol bombers on ASW patrol.

(2) The game does NOT automatically configure AC set on ASW patrol with the correct loadout.

(3) The game does NOT include airdropped depth charges either in the AC loadout options within the editor or hardwired for AC tasked with ASW missions.

(4) It is VERY possible that the PBY will NOT use the Mk 13 torpedo offensively under any circumstances.

Make of it what you will...
Post #: 1
- 6/2/2002 5:54:07 PM   
von Murrin


Posts: 1760
Joined: 11/13/2001
From: That from which there is no escape.
Status: offline 		Very nice! That's why I use Hudsons or B-25's for ASW.

[QUOTE](4) Exact same setup, except the PBY's are configured with twin forward mounted .30's, L/R mounted .50's, and a 3000 lb bomb load of 6 x 500 lbs bombs.

First turn, perfect weather, I-4 is detected in the shallow coastal water directly off Noumea...hit twice and sinks immediately. Test aborted at that point.[/QUOTE]

LOL :D

_____________________________

I give approximately two fifths of a !#$% at any given time!

(in reply to juliet7bravo)
Post #: 2
- 6/2/2002 6:02:54 PM   
Pkunzipper


Posts: 237
Joined: 5/21/2002
Status: offline 		Really great and interesting test!! ;)

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Post #: 3
- 6/2/2002 6:09:56 PM   
juliet7bravo

 

Posts: 894
Joined: 5/30/2001
Status: offline 		I got tired of the "oh, they'll start attacking" crapola.

Guess what? They won't...I guess the crews just exchange insults as they fly past, LOL.

The subs in the deep water hexes not getting spotted is an eye opener too...no wonder I get my subs whacked so badly. Nebber nebber put your subs in shallow water...

(in reply to juliet7bravo)
Post #: 4
- 6/2/2002 6:29:47 PM   
Odin


Posts: 1052
Joined: 1/3/2001
From: Germany, Wanne-Eickel
Status: offline 		Parked subs near Noumea are a problem....i´m afraid to send one big ship out until i´m shure the sea is clear.

Putting lot of ASW groups, no matter what aircraft, shows no good results.

(in reply to juliet7bravo)
Post #: 5
- 6/3/2002 3:09:50 AM   
juliet7bravo

 

Posts: 894
Joined: 5/30/2001
Status: offline 		Further testing...

(1) Torpedo armed AC like the Beaufort/TBD will swap out their torpedoes for bombs against ground targets, and (I'm pretty sure) shipping at long range.

(2) The AC with their default loadout as torpedoes, do not swap out their loadout when tasked for ASW work. This includes the Mavis ect.

(3) Patrol/Medium bombers with a default torpedo loadout are virtually useless in an ASW role even at 100 exp. levels.

(4) Torpedoes in general are useless for ASW, ESPECIALLY Mk 13's during the early period.

(5) Subs in deep water hexes are almost immune to detection/attack by air, even adjoining your main bases and under optimal circumstances...so training escorts is critical.

(6) AC who report sub contacts are in fact attempting to attack the subs. It just takes a fairly high exp level and the right weapons to do so successfully.

From the best research I can do, torpedoes were not the standard loadout for patrol planes. The best I can come up with for PBY's used in the anti-shipping role within the UV area/timeframe is 2 X 1000 lbs, and 2 X 500 lbs bombs. Still looking for the Mavis ect.

Fixes;

(1) Temporary fix is to change the default loadout on the patrol AC to bombs. Not certain if this is going to create "uber patrol bombers" or not. Suspect so if there isn't any hardwired range limits on payload at extreme ranges. I'd hate to be getting hacked at by PBY's/Mavis's halfway to Truk/Brisbane on a regular basis. The solution might be a default payload of light bombs dangerous to subs but not especially to ships.

(2) Permanent fix is to patch/hardwire the game so that all AC tasked with ASW missions use an appropriate loadout.

(3) The PBY-5A was used operationally by USN patrol squadrons within the UV area/timeframe. It was equipped with ASV air/surface radar, and this needs to be included in some of the patrol squadrons at some point to help locate and neutralize the "deep water hex" subs.

(4) All hexes immediately adjoining and WITHIN major/key bases should be "coastal hexes" for game purposes.

(5) A "nice to have/cool" option would be the ability to use the PBY/patrol AC in a dedicated naval attack role (Black Cats) strictly at night with range limitations.

(in reply to juliet7bravo)
Post #: 6
- 6/3/2002 3:16:49 AM   
legio

 

Posts: 19
Joined: 5/19/2002
Status: offline 		I have been playing scenario 5 and am about three weeks through.

For the first two weeks no sub kills. Put most crews on trg then back to ASW after a few days. Then I started to get a few msg's

'I 52 reported hit'

No indication by who or what but I have now seen three of these reports and feels accurate. I expect this was about as good as I could expect with the bad weather and dropping depth charges on a submerging or submerged target?

Think it helps to try and train up the crews then they seem to get some hits?

(in reply to juliet7bravo)
Post #: 7
- 6/3/2002 3:21:09 AM   
Pkunzipper


Posts: 237
Joined: 5/21/2002
Status: offline 		I think too that ASW (expecially Aircraft) should be tweaked in the next patch.....
I think Sub in swallow waters should be easily sunk by planes, in order to discourage players in sending sub to base hex and to make them search for the preferred deep water routes used by the enemy.

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Post #: 8
- 6/3/2002 3:59:48 AM   
juliet7bravo

 

Posts: 894
Joined: 5/30/2001
Status: offline 		The patrol AC would be deadly against subs in shallow water already, especially once they gained more experience, it's just that the torpedoes they have as their default weapons loadout are totally useless as an ASW weapon. They're attacking their little butts off, it just don't do any good. I tried tests using the Brit and Japanese torps as well incidentally, so it's not just the USN Mk 13's.

Non-patrol AC that have bombs as their default weapons loadout will start getting hits as they gain experience. They don't seem to be as effective at it as the dedicated patrol planes though, and have to have a high experience level to get kills.

Testing while playing "head to head", you find that some of the reported hits are just due to FOW, but at least you know that they've gotten enough experience that they are starting to be "close".

"fixing" the patrol bombers will be helpful, but mainly against human players...the AI doesn't send its subs into shallow water often unless it has to, to get from point A to B. It'd be nice to have a chance of sinking them in transit though. If the PB's could sink subs your AV's would be worth alot more in game terms...as it is they're mainly useless because your PB's are really useless for anything except naval search. Keep in mind that most of the times fairly early when we're all getting our DD's/SC's sank due to their dismal experience ratings is from IJN subs in the shallows around Noumea that have been located by our relatively experienced but totally ineffective PB's...so we load up a SC TF with green sailors and send'em off to die.

(in reply to juliet7bravo)
Post #: 9
- 6/3/2002 10:50:32 PM   
Grouchy


Posts: 1117
Joined: 9/26/2001
From: Nuenen, Noord-Brabant, Nederland
Status: offline 		Noticed this also, mainly playing as Japanese and only japanese lanes that are carrying bombs will hit a sub (Val, Judy, Frances, Helen, etc)
Planes that are carrying torpedoes (Betty, Emily) will not get hits.

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Post #: 10
- 6/4/2002 1:17:53 AM   
juliet7bravo

 

Posts: 894
Joined: 5/30/2001
Status: offline 		It's a waste of time/effort to put any AC with a torp default loadout on ASW...or at least that's what my testing is showing. I changed the loadout on my PB's to bombs, and don't bother putting torpedo bombers on ASW patrol.

So far, no sign of the PB's armed with bombs being "uber bombers" BTW.

(in reply to juliet7bravo)
Post #: 11
- 6/4/2002 5:30:22 AM   
David Heath


Posts: 3274
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Staten Island NY
Status: offline 		Thank you for doing such a detail test. Gary did find a problem in the code and we are looking at ways to correct the problem. It may not make the first patch but it should be fixed by the second one.

David

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Post #: 12
- 6/4/2002 7:43:05 AM   
juliet7bravo

 

Posts: 894
Joined: 5/30/2001
Status: offline 		No problem David, that's what we're here for.

I got fed up after my second anchored AV supporting a PBY squadron on ASW got torpedoed, LOL.

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Post #: 13
Editing weapons loads? - 6/4/2002 11:50:50 AM   
ADavidB


Posts: 2464
Joined: 9/17/2001
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline 		How did you go about changing the weapons loads on the PBYs?

Thanks -

Dave B

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Post #: 14
- 6/4/2002 12:44:57 PM   
juliet7bravo

 

Posts: 894
Joined: 5/30/2001
Status: offline 		Load the editor (from "Uncommon Valor"), load scenario #17, open "Air groups", then scroll through the various air group listings. Change the weapon loadout listings for each air group using the Emily, Mavis, and PBY AC. I gave PBY's 6 x 500 lbs bombs, Emily/Mavis 6 x 250 kg bombs, probably change later after more play or the patch comes out.

You can do everything with the editor except (unfortunately) add new classes of ships or aircraft. You're "stuck" with the basic ship classes they issued, but you can change their weapons, and "mix'n match" the hulls.

(in reply to juliet7bravo)
Post #: 15
- 6/4/2002 5:08:58 PM   
ADavidB


Posts: 2464
Joined: 9/17/2001
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by juliet7bravo
[B]Load the editor (from "Uncommon Valor"), load scenario #17, open "Air groups", then scroll through the various air group listings. Change the weapon loadout listings for each air group using the Emily, Mavis, and PBY AC. I gave PBY's 6 x 500 lbs bombs, Emily/Mavis 6 x 250 kg bombs, probably change later after more play or the patch comes out.

You can do everything with the editor except (unfortunately) add new classes of ships or aircraft. You're "stuck" with the basic ship classes they issued, but you can change their weapons, and "mix'n match" the hulls. [/B][/QUOTE]

Ahah, great, thanks! I haven't tried the editor yet.

Dave B

(in reply to juliet7bravo)
Post #: 16
- 6/4/2002 8:42:31 PM   
zed

 

Posts: 268
Joined: 5/20/2002
Status: offline 		Juliet7Bravo:
How can I get a pilot to show up in a specific air group?
I tried to get saburo sakai in f1/tainan, but the computer seems to shuffle pilots.
On another note, I did arm mavis/emily with Depth charges, but I am not sure which of the available depth charges are American and which are japanese.
ALso, what does delay mean in regards to pilots?
thanks-

(in reply to juliet7bravo)
Post #: 17
- 6/4/2002 9:20:35 PM   
juliet7bravo

 

Posts: 894
Joined: 5/30/2001
Status: offline 		Add him to an empty slot (or insert a new one under "s"). Delay for Sakai would be 0 as he was in Rabaul around March 42 I think. Delay, I think is the number of days until the guy/unit is available/arrives in theatre on standard game settings. Other option would be to make him the unit commander and add him to the commanders list, or both. Haven't really messed with the pilots/leaders yet.

If you arm the Mavis/Emily with DC's as the default load, they won't be able to attack shipping. Don't think they'll drop the DC's anyway, I didn't have any luck with them. The IJN DC's are the Type 91/95/3. 91 shallow settings and obsolete by '42, 95 the standard IJN DC, the Type 3 I THINK is an AC DC, might be a light DC for very small slow SC's instead, of which the Jps. had a slew of. I'd really advise using bombs on your PB's.

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Post #: 18
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