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RE: Move over tie fighters - 4/15/2009 7:53:07 AM   
Puhis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

quote:

the F4U had the best kill ratio in air-to-air combat of all the Allied types in the Pacific, something like 15-1


I think in UV the kill ratio for the F4U is greater than 15-1.

Wiki

quote:

The U.S. Navy counted an 11:1 kill ratio with the F4U Corsair.

From February 1943 onward, the F4U operated from Guadalcanal and ultimately other bases in the Solomon Islands. A dozen USMC F4U-1s of VMF-124, commanded by Major William E. Gise, arrived at Henderson Field (code name "Cactus") on 12 February. The first recorded combat engagement was on February 14, 1943, when Corsairs of VMF-124 under Major Gise assisted P-40s and P-38s in escorting a formation of B-24 Liberators on a raid against a Japanese aerodrome at Kahili. Japanese fighters contested the raid and the Americans got the worst of it, with four P-38s, two P-40s, two Corsairs and two Liberators lost. No more than four Japanese Zeros were destroyed. A Corsair was responsible for one of the kills, although this was due to a midair collision.

Although the Corsair's combat debut was not impressive, the Marines quickly learned how to make better use of the aircraft and started demonstrating its superiority over Japanese fighters.


In UV these Corsairs would have shredded all the Japanese planes. Experience needs to be more of a factor in Air Combat.


I have read somewhere that in 1943 the kill ratio of F4U was 6:1. It was something like 25:1 in 1945, because of kamikazes. So the mean kill ratio was about 15:1, but that was not the situation in -43.

(in reply to Ike99)
Post #: 181
RE: Move over tie fighters - 4/15/2009 9:58:05 AM   
xj900uk

 

Posts: 1340
Joined: 3/22/2007
Status: offline 		The overall kill ratio for teh F4U is about 15:1 but that includes the USMC squadrons between 43-45, don't think the FAA are in there though although they were operating it by mid-'43 as well.
It is worth noting that the F4U was still around in the Korean war & shot down a few N Korean planes, although they were used mainly for ground attack & lost heavily to AA fire. I also believe the Thai and S Vietnamese air forces or others from that corner of the world may have operated a few well into the 50's but am not sure about this.  Don't know if they ever saw any air combat

(in reply to Puhis)
Post #: 182
RE: Move over tie fighters - 4/15/2009 3:50:08 PM   
Ike99


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quote:

I have read somewhere that in 1943 the kill ratio of F4U was 6:1. It was something like 25:1 in 1945


I think how much better this game would be with the F4U starting with a kill ratio of about 6-1 and ending with a kill ratio of about 10-1 by games end.

It would make a lot of people happy and a better game I believe.

And who says that couldn´t be done and how hard would this be to change? I don´t think so hard. But will it happen? No. They will wait 4 years for the CF Fantom Menace to show up.

< Message edited by Ike99 -- 4/15/2009 3:54:24 PM >

(in reply to Puhis)
Post #: 183
RE: Move over tie fighters - 4/15/2009 4:13:45 PM   
Puhis


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From: Finland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

quote:

I have read somewhere that in 1943 the kill ratio of F4U was 6:1. It was something like 25:1 in 1945


I think how much better this game would be with the F4U starting with a kill ratio of about 6-1 and ending with a kill ratio of about 10-1 by games end.

It would make a lot of people happy and a better game I believe.



That would make sense.

Interesting detail from The Pacific War Online Encyclopedia, pilots sub-page.

The effects of the uneven battle of attrition became evident as early as mid-1943. On 25 April 1943, a group of just four Corsairs defending Henderson Field engaged a group of 16 "Bettys" and 20 "Zeros" and shot down five aircraft at the cost of two of their own. On 5 June 1943 a sweep by 81 "Zeros" opposed by 110 Allied fighters over the Russell Islands cost the Japanese 25 aircraft versus seven for the Allies. A sweep on 12 June had a similar outcome. Such lopsided outcomes would have been unthinkable a year earlier.

http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/

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Post #: 184
RE: Move over tie fighters - 4/15/2009 5:37:57 PM   
Ike99


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quote:

The effects of the uneven battle of attrition became evident as early as mid-1943. On 25 April 1943, a group of just four Corsairs defending Henderson Field engaged a group of 16 "Bettys" and 20 "Zeros" and shot down five aircraft at the cost of two of their own. On 5 June 1943 a sweep by 81 "Zeros" opposed by 110 Allied fighters over the Russell Islands cost the Japanese 25 aircraft versus seven for the Allies. A sweep on 12 June had a similar outcome. Such lopsided outcomes would have been unthinkable a year earlier.


Hehehe! They think THESE results are lopsided!? Those seem really good to me, they want to see lopsided try UV!

(in reply to Puhis)
Post #: 185
RE: Move over tie fighters - 4/16/2009 4:01:26 AM   
borner


Posts: 1485
Joined: 3/20/2005
From: Houston TX
Status: offline 		I agree. when Zeros have the number advantage, the loss rate is still close to 10-1. The game fails to take into account the effects of keeping our good piolots alive, and just seems to have gone off schoold book quality research, took the overall kill ratio for teh whole war, and applied that to early 1943. 5-2 ratio, or even 4-1 would be a vast improvement. this is a great game until the summer of 43, then really takes a left turn.

(in reply to Ike99)
Post #: 186
RE: Move over tie fighters - 4/16/2009 9:41:39 AM   
xj900uk

 

Posts: 1340
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Status: offline 		As the war wore on the US ran up some amazing cricket-type scores.  I'm thinkgn Marianas Turkey-Shoot where the Japs lost approx 270 planes (although some were shot down by AA) & it cost the US just 29 Hellcats.  Then there's the case of the redoutable McCambell, the Essex air-group commander who shot down 9 confirmed Jap planes in one action also flying the Hellcat, a record which has never been equalled.  His wingman (whose name escapes me) got another 6!

Interstingly, reading Sabaru Sakai's autobiography, Samurai (an excellent read!) he states that in the opening phases of the war, in late '41 and early '42 the Japs themselves were running up a 30-2, 30-3 air-to-air victory ratio over the Dutch and Phillipenes airfields...  Worth thinking about...

(in reply to borner)
Post #: 187
RE: Move over tie fighters - 4/16/2009 1:02:33 PM   
borner


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From: Houston TX
Status: offline 		two counter points.... the Turkey shoot takes place after the timeframe of the game, and with proper play, Japan can have much better pilots then they hd at that battle. Second, I do not think Japan ever gets 15-1 kill ratios in the game.

(in reply to xj900uk)
Post #: 188
RE: Move over tie fighters - 4/16/2009 4:43:25 PM   
xj900uk

 

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Status: offline 		I've played as the Japs before & got a few days with 10-0 & once even 12-0.  It was Sabaru Sakai's unit sweeping south from Lae over Port Morseby in May '42 at around 20k feet and shooting down hordes of P39's, P40's & Wirraways.  So it is possible in theory I guess for the Japs to even get a 15-0 scoreline for a single action

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Post #: 189
RE: Move over tie fighters - 4/17/2009 3:30:12 AM   
borner


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From: Houston TX
Status: offline 		F4U's getting 10-1+ kill rations is standard, not unusual. that is the difference.

(in reply to xj900uk)
Post #: 190
RE: Move over tie fighters - 4/17/2009 9:38:47 AM   
xj900uk

 

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Status: offline 		Well I'm playing a scenario 17 game with myself as the US against Lauri.  Big air battles now over Russell Islands with my first Corsair squadron - so far have had 18 victories overall in about 10 days of battles and it's mid-Feb '43 (five had been bad weather rest days) but have lost 9 Corsairs!  However I think only one was in air-to-air combat, the rest in non-combat operational losses.  Bet there are loads of crashed and badly mangled Corsairs littering Lunga airfield, which is where the squadron is operating out of. I lost five in one day escorting some B24's & didn't see a single jap plane!

(in reply to borner)
Post #: 191
RE: Move over tie fighters - 5/15/2009 11:43:51 PM   
Ike99


Posts: 1747
Joined: 1/1/2006
From: A Sand Road
Status: offline 		Borner has placed most of his best planes and carriers on the Solomon side of the map so I thought this would be a good opportunity to use the KB on the New Guinea side.

Recon spotted a supply force moving to PM so they went in. 300+ Allied planes were lost to less than half that number of Japanese planes and a number of ships hit.

Partial

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 08/02/43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Port Moresby at 10,40


Allied Ships
AP Manoora, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP President Polk, Bomb hits 7, on fire, heavy damage
AP Arthur Middleton, Bomb hits 5, on fire
AP Leedstown, Torpedo hits 1
AP Ormiston, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
MSW Lismore, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AK Algorab, Bomb hits 8, on fire, heavy damage
AP Monrovia, Bomb hits 2
AK Adhara, Bomb hits 1, on fire
MSW Launceton, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Wanganella, Bomb hits 2, on fire

Looked like this
-not family soundtrack, viewer choice to watch or not-






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Ike99 -- 5/15/2009 11:47:15 PM >

_____________________________

¨If you tremble with indignation at every injustice, then you are a comrade of mine.¨ Che Guevara

The more I know people, the more I like my dog.

(in reply to borner)
Post #: 192
RE: Move over tie fighters - 5/17/2009 1:32:25 AM   
borner


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Joined: 3/20/2005
From: Houston TX
Status: offline 		No tie fighters were there, all my F4U's are on the other front.  IKE hammered several AK's. None sunk. He lost about 100 zeros and about 40 bombers. I can replace my planes he cannot.  5 of his carriers were reported hit, none seriously. It did close my point lead with him, but I still have about a 50 point lead at the end of July.

My avengers at Gili Gili flew, but IKE's fighters blew through my P-38's to both protect his carriers and tear my fighters apart. A stike by B-25's did the damage to him

(in reply to Ike99)
Post #: 193
Carrier Clash - 5/27/2009 7:06:24 PM   
Ike99


Posts: 1747
Joined: 1/1/2006
From: A Sand Road
Status: offline 		Borner lands the Allies on Russell and our carriers clash north of the island. Minor bomb hits to both sides except Independence that seemed heavily damaged.





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

¨If you tremble with indignation at every injustice, then you are a comrade of mine.¨ Che Guevara

The more I know people, the more I like my dog.

(in reply to borner)
Post #: 194
RE: Carrier Clash - 5/28/2009 2:56:18 AM   
borner


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From: Houston TX
Status: offline 		CAP and AA extract a terrible tool on the IJN. even with his carriers intact IKE may not have the planes to fill the decks

(in reply to Ike99)
Post #: 195
RE: Carrier Clash - 5/29/2009 4:00:43 AM   
borner


Posts: 1485
Joined: 3/20/2005
From: Houston TX
Status: offline 		quick update. Russell island falls with the loss of 7000 IJN troops. about another 200 IJN aircraft have been lost. Shoho and Akagi nearly blown out of the water but not showing sunk yet. allied point lead nearly 850 and growing. IKE still has his surface fleet, will be intesting to see if he will commit it and when.

(in reply to borner)
Post #: 196
RE: Carrier Clash - 5/30/2009 1:35:41 AM   
borner


Posts: 1485
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From: Houston TX
Status: offline 		nice of IKE to show the picture of the only KATE pilot (in the above picture) to make it back home after two days of strikes

(in reply to borner)
Post #: 197
RE: Carrier Clash - 5/31/2009 10:22:29 PM   
borner


Posts: 1485
Joined: 3/20/2005
From: Houston TX
Status: offline 		US carriers catch IKE's battlefleet running back to truk. 2 BC's, one BB, one CA, two CL's and a couple DD's badly hit. I doubt any of the 3 BB's will make port safely.


(in reply to borner)
Post #: 198
Carrier Clash II - 6/3/2009 3:52:31 AM   
Ike99


Posts: 1747
Joined: 1/1/2006
From: A Sand Road
Status: offline 		Another Carrier Clash close to Truk. The important hits.

Allied Ships
CVL Belleau Wood, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
CVL Princeton
CVE Suwannee, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CVE Long Island, Bomb hits 2
CVE Chenango, Bomb hits 7, on fire, heavy damage

Japanese Ships
CV Hiyo
CV Shokaku
CV Hiryu
CV Soryu, Torpedo hits 1
CV Junyo
CVL Ryujo, Torpedo hits 1, on fire







Attachment (1)

_____________________________

¨If you tremble with indignation at every injustice, then you are a comrade of mine.¨ Che Guevara

The more I know people, the more I like my dog.

(in reply to borner)
Post #: 199
RE: Carrier Clash II - 6/14/2009 9:33:55 PM   
borner


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Joined: 3/20/2005
From: Houston TX
Status: offline 		I don't thik IKE's pilot is with us anymore. He lost another 80 planes today. Us carriers NE of SHortland have sunk an couple DD's and a CA.

(in reply to Ike99)
Post #: 200
RE: Carrier Clash II - 6/23/2009 1:50:40 AM   
borner


Posts: 1485
Joined: 3/20/2005
From: Houston TX
Status: offline 		yet another carrier SE ot TRUK pays off. my CV's caught IKE battlefleet at sea, 4ca's and one BC pounded into scrap. 

(in reply to borner)
Post #: 201
Northbound and Down - 7/7/2009 3:55:37 PM   
Ike99


Posts: 1747
Joined: 1/1/2006
From: A Sand Road
Status: offline 		Borner chasing Bigreds victory percentage...
Northbound and Down




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

¨If you tremble with indignation at every injustice, then you are a comrade of mine.¨ Che Guevara

The more I know people, the more I like my dog.

(in reply to borner)
Post #: 202
RE: Northbound and Down - 7/13/2009 3:20:49 AM   
borner


Posts: 1485
Joined: 3/20/2005
From: Houston TX
Status: offline 		Lea falls - film at 11


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Post #: 203
RE: Northbound and Down - 7/13/2009 3:21:50 AM   
borner


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Status: offline 		I did not enter the game to get a high %, so if I can get to 1.54 I would consider that outstanding.

(in reply to borner)
Post #: 204
RE: Northbound and Down - 7/13/2009 4:24:47 AM   
Ike99


Posts: 1747
Joined: 1/1/2006
From: A Sand Road
Status: offline 		It appears impressive, but that is a snowball exploding on a brick wall.

quote:

I did not enter the game to get a high %, so if I can get to 1.54 I would consider that outstanding.

You´re not that far away.





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Ike99 -- 7/13/2009 4:25:29 AM >

_____________________________

¨If you tremble with indignation at every injustice, then you are a comrade of mine.¨ Che Guevara

The more I know people, the more I like my dog.

(in reply to borner)
Post #: 205
Almost Over - 7/25/2009 5:52:32 PM   
Ike99


Posts: 1747
Joined: 1/1/2006
From: A Sand Road
Status: offline 		Two weeks remain in the game. Japanese have retaken Nadzab, borner has landed at Gasmata.





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

¨If you tremble with indignation at every injustice, then you are a comrade of mine.¨ Che Guevara

The more I know people, the more I like my dog.

(in reply to Ike99)
Post #: 206
RE: Catch me if u can - 7/26/2009 1:22:56 AM   
bigred


Posts: 3599
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Status: offline 		Edit

< Message edited by bigred -- 7/26/2009 12:25:40 PM >

(in reply to Ike99)
Post #: 207
RE: Catch me if u can - 7/26/2009 12:28:17 PM   
bigred


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Status: offline 		Catch me if u can. I am amused by "Smokey and the Bandit". Congratulations on a finished game.

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Post #: 208
RE: Catch me if u can - 7/27/2009 4:01:35 AM   
borner


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From: Houston TX
Status: offline 		actually I am quite shocked. I did not go into this to get as many points as possible, just 1.25+  It does raise a subject for another thread. what is realistic to expect

(in reply to bigred)
Post #: 209
RE: Catch me if u can - 7/27/2009 5:01:52 AM   
bigred


Posts: 3599
Joined: 12/27/2007
Status: offline 		It is good we have some complete games to measure ourselves against. This will provide incentive for others in the future. I think most players playing IJ will have a hard time beating Ikesan99's Japan play. I am sure many will beat my score as time goes by. If they play IKESAN99, THEN BEAT HIM BY GREATER THAN 1.54.

SO IF YOU WANT TO BE THE BIG DOG, TAKE THE JAPS AND LOSE BY NO MORE THAN 1.54, WHICH SEEMS TO BE A GOOD STANDARD SET BY IKE99.

Ike and I are proud of our game finish. It took a year to play. I encourage all players to at the least post a game finish on the AAR so we can see the numbers as time goes by. Soon we will all be distracted by AE, but if AE gets too big I wll be back to UV again later. I apologize to Ike and Borner if I hijacked their AAR.

BELOW FROM "INTO THE BREACH" AAR.



Attachment (1)

< Message edited by bigred -- 7/27/2009 5:12:41 AM >

(in reply to borner)
Post #: 210
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