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So what does it take to get started? - 7/29/2009 3:38:53 AM   
Kabbers

 

Posts: 44
Joined: 9/20/2006
Status: offline
Hi

I'm absolutely thrilled for everyone, reading these posts - I know what a great new release feels like :) But I don't know what a great new release of this particular game/series feels like. So what does it take to get into it from scratch/zero context?

I don't know the history particularly well (but could find out of course). I enjoy games like chess to good depth (county level and hanging around in national selection events in my youth) but the nearest I've come to this game is probably CotA (which I enjoy but am a bit rubbish at all said LOL). I enjoy pitting against AI mostly, as an AI/cognitive scientist background nothing gives me greater pleasure than watching a great algorithm at work.

Sort of game I could bootstrap myself into?
Thx for any thoughts, I enjoyed reading the initial posts, have fun

Kabbers
Post #: 1
RE: So what does it take to get started? - 7/29/2009 3:48:25 AM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kabbers
I'm absolutely thrilled for everyone, reading these posts - I know what a great new release feels like :) But I don't know what a great new release of this particular game/series feels like. So what does it take to get into it from scratch/zero context?


Perseverance and a love of micro details and micro management. This is probably the most detailed and complex wargame ever produced, so be prepared for a steep learning curve (it's probably more like a cliff). But once you're over the hump, prepare yourself for a lifetime addiction to the enjoyment you can garner from this game.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kabbers
I don't know the history particularly well (but could find out of course). I enjoy games like chess to good depth (county level and hanging around in national selection events in my youth) but the nearest I've come to this game is probably CotA (which I enjoy but am a bit rubbish at all said LOL). I enjoy pitting against AI mostly, as an AI/cognitive scientist background nothing gives me greater pleasure than watching a great algorithm at work.

Sort of game I could bootstrap myself into?


Knowing the history of the conflict isn't necessary of course, but it will GREATLY enhance your notion of what needs doing and why it needs doing. This game is an awesome learning tool for getting to know the Pacific conflict. But it will be a daunting and intense journey for a novice.

I'd recommend reading some of the AARs for WitP. If you find you enjoy them, then you'll probably enjoy the game. They can also give you some idea of the commitment involved.

Jim


_____________________________


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Post #: 2
RE: So what does it take to get started? - 7/29/2009 4:39:18 AM   
AttuWatcher

 

Posts: 489
Joined: 6/25/2009
From: Hex 181, 36
Status: offline 		I was in your shoes about 5 weeks ago. I made a commitment to get into this game. It has payed off immensely.
To be at a moderate comfort level has taken me many, many hours of learning and research, mostly on these forums.
I only just started playing yesterday of course but my transition from learning to playing has been better than I expected.

This is talking scenarios though...I haven't even attempted the grand campaign and probably won't do so for another few months yet. But just to think that it's doable is progress

(in reply to Jim D Burns)
Post #: 3
RE: So what does it take to get started? - 7/29/2009 5:37:25 AM   
Admiral DadMan


Posts: 3627
Joined: 2/22/2002
From: A Lion uses all its might to catch a Rabbit
Status: offline 		It takes 3 things:

  • patience,
  • patience,
  • and patience.

Seriously, let yourself feel overwhelmed, it's ok. I've been with this since I found Uncommon Valor and became a minor tester/contributor for it, War in the Pacific, and WitP: Admiral's Edition. I am nowhere in the league of a lot of these folks, and often get creamed in PBEM, but I think it's a blast.

So, start slow with smaller scenarios like Coral Sea. Don't be concerned with what the AI is/isn't doing. Learn the mechanics of the game, how they work will help you toward why they work.

And remember even in WWII when the commanders wargamed their operations, they too sometimes said "hey! they can't do that!"

_____________________________

Scenario 127: "Scraps of Paper"
(\../)
(O.o)
(> <)

CVB Langley:

(in reply to AttuWatcher)
Post #: 4
RE: So what does it take to get started? - 7/29/2009 5:43:17 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		What he said. If you want in, you're welcome, but it'll take plenty of patience, and many, many, many restarts.

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to Admiral DadMan)
Post #: 5
RE: So what does it take to get started? - 7/29/2009 1:58:45 PM   
olivier_slith


Posts: 187
Joined: 5/7/2000
From: USA
Status: offline 		Time. So having a laptop is a good idea as you can play anywhere and almost anytime.

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 6
RE: So what does it take to get started? - 7/29/2009 2:09:14 PM   
Lützow


Posts: 1517
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kabbers

I don't know the history particularly well (but could find out of course). I enjoy games like chess to good depth (county level and hanging around in national selection events in my youth) but the nearest I've come to this game is probably CotA (which I enjoy but am a bit rubbish at all said LOL). I enjoy pitting against AI mostly, as an AI/cognitive scientist background nothing gives me greater pleasure than watching a great algorithm at work.

Sort of game I could bootstrap myself into?
Thx for any thoughts, I enjoyed reading the initial posts, have fun

Kabbers


You could head over to WPO forum, read the written Quickstart Tutorial and in addition consider the plethora of WitP AAR's. AE is basically the same, just on a larger level and with more features/details.

(in reply to Kabbers)
Post #: 7
RE: So what does it take to get started? - 7/29/2009 2:24:18 PM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline 		You are already doing okay getting into the game since the best learning place is here in the forum. When you buy the game, shot a small scenario to understand the mechanics. It think going or learning WPO or WITP before AE is a waste of time. If you enjoy being a supreme commander assembling forces and supply, supreme quartermaster supplying an army of millions, for Japan also supplying your industry and managing your ships and planes production and after all this strategic moves you have the operational and tactical levels with clear combat decisions.

(in reply to Lützow)
Post #: 8
RE: So what does it take to get started? - 7/30/2009 6:55:52 PM   
Kabbers

 

Posts: 44
Joined: 9/20/2006
Status: offline 		Hi

Thanks for the hints, directions and headsups! Gotta admit, I'm reading with a mixture of intrigue and fear the discussions about monumental 20 hour first turns. How do you know what to er -- do? :-) Would I basically have to start moving a few things around and just "work it out", or is there a sense of direction given? The modelling experience you folks are experiencing sounds wicked <g>

cheers again,
Kabs

Edit: Actually I should just go read those AARs sorry this is a lazysod question when you have given me perfictly good place to go find out mroe :)



(in reply to Dili)
Post #: 9
RE: So what does it take to get started? - 7/30/2009 6:59:00 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		FWIW, my first turn in my vs. AI test for the Gold version only took about 2-3 hours, same as WITP and my turns after that have been 15-30 minute affairs. However, I use auto Sub Ops and the Auto Convoy system (where appropriate) which tends to save me quite a bit of time. I also make heavy use of patrol zones, waypoints, auto-disband, "set all" etc. to make my life easier. I could see spending twice as much time on the first turn if I were being extremely careful, but one of the nice things in AE is that usually the time spent there setting things up just as you want them saves you time on future turns.

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CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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(in reply to Kabbers)
Post #: 10
RE: So what does it take to get started? - 7/30/2009 7:09:51 PM   
AttuWatcher

 

Posts: 489
Joined: 6/25/2009
From: Hex 181, 36
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
I could see spending twice as much time on the first turn if I were being extremely careful, but one of the nice things in AE is that usually the time spent there setting things up just as you want them saves you time on future turns.


That's very true.

Another thing to keep in mind (and this goes along with the concern over "what do I do? What is my direction?") Folks that are spending 10+ hours on the first turn are very familiar with the game so they are able to read ahead alittle bit into what they need in the future. If you want to plan that far out you can issue LOTS of orders in a short span of time. This can be good or bad as plans seldom work the way they were intended in war

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 11
RE: So what does it take to get started? - 7/30/2009 7:11:01 PM   
jazman

 

Posts: 369
Joined: 1/20/2007
From: Crush Depth
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Admiral DadMan

It takes 3 things:

  • patience,
  • patience,
  • and patience.




I only have two patiences. Any idea where I can get a third?

(in reply to Admiral DadMan)
Post #: 12
RE: So what does it take to get started? - 7/30/2009 7:13:49 PM   
AttuWatcher

 

Posts: 489
Joined: 6/25/2009
From: Hex 181, 36
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jazman


quote:

ORIGINAL: Admiral DadMan

It takes 3 things:

  • patience,
  • patience,
  • and patience.




I only have two patiences. Any idea where I can get a third?



How did you get two?

(in reply to jazman)
Post #: 13
RE: So what does it take to get started? - 7/30/2009 7:22:47 PM   
jazman

 

Posts: 369
Joined: 1/20/2007
From: Crush Depth
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FAsea


quote:

ORIGINAL: jazman


quote:

ORIGINAL: Admiral DadMan

It takes 3 things:

  • patience,
  • patience,
  • and patience.




I only have two patiences. Any idea where I can get a third?



How did you get two?



Hard work, perseverance, and hard work.

(in reply to AttuWatcher)
Post #: 14
RE: So what does it take to get started? - 7/30/2009 7:23:49 PM   
DivePac88


Posts: 3119
Joined: 10/9/2008
From: Somewhere in the South Pacific.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jazman


quote:

ORIGINAL: Admiral DadMan

It takes 3 things:

  • patience,
  • patience,
  • and patience.



I only have two patiences. Any idea where I can get a third?




You can have my third one as I used passion for AE as my third patience.




_____________________________


When you see the Southern Cross, For the first time
You understand now, Why you came this way

(in reply to jazman)
Post #: 15
RE: So what does it take to get started? - 7/30/2009 8:01:28 PM   
Tazo


Posts: 85
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Toulouse, France
Status: offline
A way to quick immersion and learning is to test many things by playing/restarting a scenario, say Guadalcanal
since a lot of actions can be experienced here, with each side alternatively, while reading history books about
the whole campaign to catch more precisely what is being simulated (constraints, operations, landings, carrier
battles, night surface battles, logistics, supply...).

Several weeks of game+manual+forum to undestand more+history...
If you survive you normaly get more exited even ! So...

... move to the grand campaign (US side simpler). Thanks to your readings you can now figure out what really
happened and what have been both strategic plans. The map clearly imposes some general waypoints for the
reqonquest, and as Eric said accurately, it is not necessary to micromanage anything. Except if you especially enjoy
or if, like me, you preserve some micromanaged units or bases as a role playing subgame - this is the ONLY game that
provides such a roleplaying aspect with such an intensity. So put forward all the material in the right locations according
to your initial long range plan and future invasions. A lot of variants possible. Whence the so called "20h first turn"
which of course includes a lot of long range planning and self recording to keep track of all you expect to do that
time (after you drop the previous game due to many mistakes - exploration phase in learning). Turn 1 is the heart
of the game for beginners ! So by no way a loss of time. Then just follow your own path (crossing the pacific is long...)
and adapt. The enemy will almost surely make you react at the most disppointing moment. Usually you realize some
of your mistakes, far later than in chess game, and this is the flavour of WitP !

This learning process is an explore/exploit type one !
So indeed we are all learning as AI do... A shame, but in face of extreme complexity what else !?
Not sure that a chess player can appreciate fog of war and uncertainty, BUT almost sure that an AI/cognitive scientist will !

Enjoy !
TZ

_____________________________

There is only two kinds of operational plans, good ones and bad ones.
The good ones almost always fail under unexpected circumstances that often make the bad ones succeed.
-- Napoléon.

With AE immortality is no more a curse.
-- A lucky man.

(in reply to Kabbers)
Post #: 16
RE: So what does it take to get started? - 7/31/2009 1:01:33 AM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline 		The direction when i played witp was Command Based. I had in my head the main missions. So i started with Invasion forces Commands then i run every Territorial HQ command(if they were not in fight there wasn't much to do). In the end since i played Japan i went to Industry and Transport.

(in reply to Tazo)
Post #: 17
RE: So what does it take to get started? - 7/31/2009 1:13:11 AM   
Kabbers

 

Posts: 44
Joined: 9/20/2006
Status: offline
Hello,

So I'm bloody well coming with you!
Just purchased, and ready to go! Yikes.

Off to Guadalcanal now to immerse, test, exploring and exploite (thx Tazo)
Certainly won't say no to that tutorial when it's ready of course aye

Excited and imminently confused I'm sure LOL
Kabs




(in reply to Tazo)
Post #: 18
RE: So what does it take to get started? - 7/31/2009 4:40:14 AM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		I like the suggestion of reviewing existing AARs for 'big picture' operational tempo and decision making. Familiarity with the WITP/AE engine will only come with time, if my experiences are any indicator.

(in reply to Kabbers)
Post #: 19
RE: So what does it take to get started? - 7/31/2009 4:58:08 AM   
afspret


Posts: 851
Joined: 2/19/2004
From: Hanahan, SC
Status: offline 		A whole boat load of patience, a good comfortable chair, aspirin and, in my case a beer or two!  It also helps to read the manual, because this game is nothing like WitP!  Speaking of the manual, it also helps to have some patience while reading that as well. 

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 20
RE: So what does it take to get started? - 7/31/2009 4:15:40 PM   
CaptDave

 

Posts: 659
Joined: 6/21/2002
From: Federal Way, WA
Status: offline 		Another reason for the 20-hour first turns is that players (especially the Japanese, where the first turn is concerned) need to completely revisit their WitP strategies and tactics. It becomes more second nature over time, but in this case the veterans need to unlearn as much as they need to learn.

(in reply to afspret)
Post #: 21
RE: So what does it take to get started? - 7/31/2009 4:24:55 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Wouldn't a fascination with the Pacific Theater be a requirement? I'm no expert on the Pacific, but I've always loved the subject. Are there ANY WitP players that aren't history buffs in general, and Pacific Theater buffs in particular?

(in reply to CaptDave)
Post #: 22
RE: So what does it take to get started? - 7/31/2009 5:42:48 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		I started playing WITP as the Allies and recently went over to play Japan. Mainly as a result of using Tracker, I was able to overcome my fear of the Japanese economy (plus being John 3rd's economic minister vs Canoerebel) helped a lot. Now, I'm waiting for the serious JFBs to untangle the economy in AE and for Tracker to come out before going back to the "dark side." So, I'm back playing the Allies and this will give me a heads up, I hope, when I re-start PBEMs with AE. Know your enemy.


(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 23
RE: So what does it take to get started? - 7/31/2009 5:57:36 PM   
moonraker65


Posts: 556
Joined: 7/14/2004
From: Swindon,Wilts. UK
Status: offline 		I've always been a PTO fan. When I was young (many moons ago ) I saw Tora Tora Tora !! and a love affair with all things Pacific War began. When Gary Grigsby brought out PacWar it was a must have and I spent many hours playing that. So when WiTP came out that was purchased on release day and now AE is finally here that too was number 1 priority to purchase on it's release day as well. I don't know what it is but once you get immersed these games just keep you coming back for more. Money very well spent in my book.

(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 24
RE: So what does it take to get started? - 7/31/2009 8:15:57 PM   
Feltan


Posts: 1160
Joined: 12/5/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kabbers

So what does it take to get into it from scratch/zero context?



Extremely large testicles, preferably made of steel.

(You will know if you pass the test after you plan and execute a deep Carrier raid.)

Regards,
Feltan

(in reply to Kabbers)
Post #: 25
RE: So what does it take to get started? - 7/31/2009 9:12:17 PM   
gunnergoz


Posts: 447
Joined: 5/21/2002
From: San Diego CA
Status: offline 		I think patience is important but so is enthusiasm and imagination.  Let yourself get immersed in the game.  If you are reading history books about the period (which is indeed a good idea), set them around so you can refer to them...and they add ambiance.  Get some nice photo books too and litter your desk with pages open to blasting Bofors and Blowing-up Betties.  Play the Victory at Sea musical score in the background (I do!).  Wear a sailor cap. (Won't admit to that.)  Read the manual when you have a question.  Settle in for a hobby and not just a game.  Tell the wife you're going on vacation in the computer room for a while.  Take out the trash and stock up on brews before you do, though.  And get up now and then, stretch, use the toilet and work out your stiff neck, arm and back muscles.  Look at the calendar disbelievingly and realize that two days have elapsed since you sat down. The wife is long gone to her Mom's. Congratulations, you're officially a WITP grog!  
And can start on turn two...

_____________________________

"Things are getting better!
...Well, maybe not as good as they were yesterday, but much better than they will be tomorrow!"
-Old Russian saying

(in reply to Feltan)
Post #: 26
RE: So what does it take to get started? - 7/31/2009 9:13:27 PM   
CombinedFleet


Posts: 2
Joined: 7/31/2009
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Patience is the word... I am a fan of different kind of wargames (computer+board) and this is a real monster compared to anything. Amount of detail seems as overwhelming as it is in the most hard core board games.

I have no experience of the original WitP and even without that comparison, this game seems very promising afer a couple of hours quick testing and confusion. I can't wait when my hard copy arrives and I can play the game with paper manual.

My first impression is that this is one amazing wargame, one that are published for computers once or twice a decade. Learning it will take time from even the hardest of grognards but I think that game will reward gamers who have patience to learn it to detail.

(in reply to Feltan)
Post #: 27
RE: So what does it take to get started? - 8/1/2009 2:35:44 AM   
Kabbers

 

Posts: 44
Joined: 9/20/2006
Status: offline
Hi,

Wow thx for lots of hearty comments.

Since the tutorial isn't here just yet, I'm following Henri's mini-tutorial from the War Room with the Coral Sea scenario (thx Henri51), and finding it intriguing... OK, I'll 'fess up I'm basically trying to decipher what the 'eck is going on actually :-) but wikipedia is my friend for some friendly hints n stuff! Doing this until my printed manual arrives... my wife is at the cricket in edgbaston _all_ day Sunday so that will be a good day for me, stuck at home </small but widening grin>

One question - does the map move to the relevant area visually every time the conflict window comes up? I'm just trying to watch the AI play out Coral Sea but sometimes it goes so quickly and I'm not sure if it's moved to the hexes where the conflict is actually taking place. Sometimes it seems to, other times I'm not sure I can tell. I bet it is isn't it? Just that half the map is obscured by the conflict screen.

Thanks for all the hints and comments, doesn't get much better than being near the hum of a great algorithm created with dedication and appreciated by fellows; cheers for helping me settle nearby too everyone.

thx for sharing,
Kabs


(in reply to CombinedFleet)
Post #: 28
RE: So what does it take to get started? - 8/1/2009 4:53:55 AM   
sfbaytf

 

Posts: 1122
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline 		This is probably a dumb and obvious suggestion but here goes....

Save every turn and don't be afraid to go back and reload.

(in reply to Kabbers)
Post #: 29
RE: So what does it take to get started? - 8/1/2009 5:47:09 AM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Wouldn't a fascination with the Pacific Theater be a requirement? I'm no expert on the Pacific, but I've always loved the subject. Are there ANY WitP players that aren't history buffs in general, and Pacific Theater buffs in particular?


I'm not a PTO buff in particular. Much more of an ETO guy. But this game still fascinates me and I've learned a tremendous amount about the PTO. That satisfies my definite history buff interest.


_____________________________

"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 30
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