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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/28/2009 8:06:00 PM   
Woos

 

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Status: offline 		Guys you are aware that an utility is included with WitpAE (in the tools/WitpStaff directory) which does a lot of the calculation for you on e.g. the "Storage" "Industry" and "Map Overview (Naval Transport)" tabs?

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/28/2009 8:07:11 PM   
Mike Solli


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Status: offline 		Yup.  I haven't gotten that far yet.  Just looking things over trying to get a feel for the magnitude of the Japanese dilemma.

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/28/2009 8:12:35 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok
Hmm..what does this represent historically? Did they really load up these guys with troops and LC?

You have to think on Japanese philosophy and actual utilization. Yes, they loaded these guys up with troops; to the gunnels. No, they did not load them up with LCs. Only certain ships were provided with LCs and the crews to man them. They formed a pool.

You must understand that when you assault, the "Dog Meat Division" only puts about 20-40% of its power ashore in the assault waves. The rest is sitting on board, 'waiting'. It took days to unload the Malaya TFs. Heck, when Turner had to leave the 'Canal, he took 27% of his his load with him, after 2 and a half days of off-loading; and Turner had "real" AKs and "real" APs.

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/28/2009 8:18:10 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
Yup.  I haven't gotten that far yet.  Just looking things over trying to get a feel for the magnitude of the Japanese dilemma.

Not so much magnitude, as scope, Mike. Shoot me a pm, I'll give ya some hints.

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/28/2009 8:40:13 PM   
Historiker


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Status: offline 		I want some, too!

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/28/2009 8:44:51 PM   
Mike Solli


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Status: offline 		That's what this thread is for.  Start digging and blabbing here.  We'll figure it out.

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/28/2009 8:52:33 PM   
Historiker


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Status: offline 		Just tell me how I can get my Shinano and Kii Yamatos before 1943!

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Post #: 37
RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/28/2009 8:56:57 PM   
Mike Solli


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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/28/2009 9:01:04 PM   
Historiker


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Post #: 39
RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/28/2009 9:27:41 PM   
ny59giants


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quote:

Not so much magnitude, as scope, Mike. Shoot me a pm, I'll give ya some hints.


That's what I was hoping would become public knowledge on this thread to decrease the slope of the learning curve. I would rather do my cliff climbing with as many safety lines as possible.

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Post #: 40
RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/28/2009 10:17:44 PM   
USSAmerica


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
Yup.  I haven't gotten that far yet.  Just looking things over trying to get a feel for the magnitude of the Japanese dilemma.

Not so much magnitude, as scope, Mike. Shoot me a pm, I'll give ya some hints.


He's the LAST person that needs hints!!!

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/29/2009 3:04:05 AM   
stuman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
There are 0 APs or AKs at the start of the campaign.  You can convert a total of 7 xAKs to AKs (Yusen A Cargo Class) at the start.  Other classes can convert, but not for a few months (at least).  Also note that if you convert from xAK to AK, you lose capacity.   For the Yusen A, your troop-cargo-fuel capacity goes from 480-6010-0 to 385-4808-0.  Again, I haven't looked at reinforcements, so I have no idea what's going on there.

Yes, that’s right. There are certain “classes” of Japanese merchant ships (xAKs) that are able to “convert” or upgrade to navalized AK/AP standards. Those classes that can are those classes that actually did. The timing is set so that Japan does not lose all capability when the “magic push” times out.

But, the ships that are “convertible” or upgradeable, are your most valuable resource haulers. Once again, you have a choice. When you navalize a ship, you lose a bit. It’s no longer a trash hauler with a supercargo placing every bale in the most efficient spot.



I am a micrommanager at heart, good thing because this is going to require some serious thought. We could almost have seperate JFB threads for each of these major issues. I can tell that my plans for working in the yard this weekend are caput.

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/29/2009 3:10:06 AM   
Mike Solli


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Status: offline 		OMG, I just looked at Japanese ship reinforcements. We get a whopping 11 xAPs as reinforcements for the whole war. Ouch!

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/29/2009 3:14:37 AM   
Mynok


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Considering the capacity given in an earlier post, that's probably pretty close to what they actually had. I foresee a lot less industry into merchant yards.


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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/29/2009 3:17:01 AM   
JWE

 

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ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
OMG, I just looked at Japanese ship reinforcements. We get a whopping 11 xAPs as reinforcements for the whole war. Ouch!

Duuude !! You are getting tangled up in your shorts again. Every Japanese xAK (> a couple thousand tons, or something) can do a quickie conversion to carry troops and then quickie convert back once the op is over. The distinction between xAK and xAP is almost meaningless, so far as Japan is concerned.

There now, doesn't that make you feel better?

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/29/2009 3:37:04 AM   
stuman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
OMG, I just looked at Japanese ship reinforcements. We get a whopping 11 xAPs as reinforcements for the whole war. Ouch!

Duuude !! You are getting tangled up in your shorts again. Every Japanese xAK (> a couple thousand tons, or something) can do a quickie conversion to carry troops and then quickie convert back once the op is over. The distinction between xAK and xAP is almost meaningless, so far as Japan is concerned.

There now, doesn't that make you feel better?


No. I prefer to wallow in self pity and mumble about all of those AFB as I plot their downfall


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Post #: 46
RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/29/2009 2:46:20 PM   
Mike Solli


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
OMG, I just looked at Japanese ship reinforcements. We get a whopping 11 xAPs as reinforcements for the whole war. Ouch!

Duuude !! You are getting tangled up in your shorts again. Every Japanese xAK (> a couple thousand tons, or something) can do a quickie conversion to carry troops and then quickie convert back once the op is over. The distinction between xAK and xAP is almost meaningless, so far as Japan is concerned.

There now, doesn't that make you feel better?


Yeah, sure........

Actually, not that I think about it, it sounds great. As long as there's a port of the appropriate size, you can convert an xAK to troop carrying, ship out some guys, convert back and haul stuff back to Japan.

< Message edited by Mike Solli -- 7/29/2009 2:47:09 PM >

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/29/2009 2:54:44 PM   
sprior


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
OMG, I just looked at Japanese ship reinforcements. We get a whopping 11 xAPs as reinforcements for the whole war. Ouch!

Duuude !! You are getting tangled up in your shorts again. Every Japanese xAK (> a couple thousand tons, or something) can do a quickie conversion to carry troops and then quickie convert back once the op is over. The distinction between xAK and xAP is almost meaningless, so far as Japan is concerned.

There now, doesn't that make you feel better?


Yeah, sure........

Actually, not that I think about it, it sounds great. As long as there's a port of the appropriate size, you can convert an xAK to troop carrying, ship out some guys, convert back and haul stuff back to Japan.


14.1.2
AK Carry Troops: Clicking on the “Convert Cargo Space to Carry Troops” button will allow certain Japanese cargo ships to convert 1/3 of their cargo carrying capacity into troop carrying capacity. This option does not require the ship to be in a repair yard, but the ship must be in a Port of level 7 or greater. It takes approximately 7-14 days to make this conversion (depending on size of ship and of location where conversion is taking place).

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/29/2009 4:35:55 PM   
Xargun

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Also keep in mind that the amount of resources needed to feed the HI and LI centers has increased exponentially. It used to take 1 resource to feed 1 HI factory to produce 1 HI. Now it takes 20 resources (and 2 fuel) to feed 1 HI factory to produce 2 HI. That's 10x what it used to cost. I haven't looked at centers yet to see how that has changed, but, needless to say, it's going to take lots of AKs to feed Japan's industry. No more droves of AKs sitting in port.



True, but each Resource Point produces 20 Resources so the resources are there - the trouble will be getting them back to Japan in a timely manner - which is the real trouble Japan had.

Xargun

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/29/2009 4:37:01 PM   
Xargun

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America
He's the LAST person that needs hints!!!


Yeah send them to me instead

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/29/2009 4:48:46 PM   
Mike Solli


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Status: offline 		You guys are funny.

I've been looking at engines and airframes this morning.  You would not believe the number of different airframes and engine types there are now.  This is going to take some work to get the numbers right.

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/29/2009 5:15:03 PM   
stuman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

You guys are funny.

I've been looking at engines and airframes this morning.  You would not believe the number of different airframes and engine types there are now.  This is going to take some work to get the numbers right.


Same here. Looking forward to a long weekend of this
Protecting our transports become so important I think. I got a littel lax in that regard in Witp.

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/29/2009 5:17:36 PM   
Mike Solli


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Status: offline 		Yeah, I think just about all Japanese players didn't worry much about losing merchant shipping.  Different ball game now.

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/29/2009 5:56:49 PM   
Q-Ball


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Status: offline 		First Question: Has anything changed regarding the automatic movement of Resources between the Home Islands? I though I read somewhere that we now have to pick up and move Resources between Home Islands. Is this the case?

In WITP, I beleive, they moved automatically, but there would be 10% leakage along the way (the Sapporo Mafia taking a cut I suppose)

It echo that it would be very helpful to start a working punchlist of To-Dos and rules, not just the first-turn adjustments, but also where the Oil/Resource/Fuel surpluses and deficits are, so we know where we need to start hauling.

Thanks Mike Solli for looking at the transports, that is very helpful. No more going the entire war without building a transport, like we used to do.

I am also looking around for the good amphibious assets, not just the APs of course, but also the LSD's like Akitsu Maru (I wondered what that ship would end up as), and a few other craft the IJN now gets.

I would also be curious what everyone's opinion is on "CONVERT" or "DON'T CONVERT" with various options. I've only visited AE briefly, but the Minekaze DD to APD, for example, looks to me like a worthwhile conversion; you don't give up much speed, and you do take off the torps, but you pick up cargo capacity and AA guns.

< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 7/29/2009 5:58:28 PM >

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/29/2009 6:02:19 PM   
Mike Solli


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Status: offline 		Q-Ball, I don't know the answer to that question.  All I've done so far is to gather data.  I haven't "pushed a counter" yet.

I'm working on the oil/resource/fuel(!) surpluses and deficits as we speak.  That'll be relatively easy.  The hard part will be determining how much of the merchant fleet will be needed to move it to where it's needed.  My guess is that most in not all will be needed for that.  That'll slow down expansion.  "Well, we can't do that invasion of Baker Island because all we have available to transport the assault troops are 3 APDs."

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/29/2009 6:02:23 PM   
sven6345789

 

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Status: offline 		sorry to interrupt this interesting conversation, but i was interested in the air production system; checking the factories, for example the ones regarding the Ki-27 Nate; the factories do not seem to upgrade. Does this mean they produce Nates until 1945 (unless you manually change it)?
otherwise, please continue, it is interesting...

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/29/2009 6:04:16 PM   
Mike Solli


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Status: offline 		At first, my eye fell on the Minekazes as well, until I realized how many escorts don't have DC racks.  They have 2.  Tough decision....

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/29/2009 6:09:47 PM   
Mike Solli


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sven6345789

sorry to interrupt this interesting conversation, but i was interested in the air production system; checking the factories, for example the ones regarding the Ki-27 Nate; the factories do not seem to upgrade. Does this mean they produce Nates until 1945 (unless you manually change it)?
otherwise, please continue, it is interesting...


Welcome to the geek room! I haven't gotten that far with the aircraft/engines yet. Still analyzing. I have noticed that the Nate and Oscar pools are both tiny and most of the IJA fighter units are under strength, with practically no aircraft in reserve. Most of the units are equipped with Nates. That tells me that we'll be producing Nates for quite a while, while trying to increase the Oscar pool. I suspect we'll have to manually change the Nate factories eventually. We'll see. Interesting stuff.

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/29/2009 6:24:20 PM   
grraven2004


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Status: offline 		Mike,

I for one really appreciate all of the book work you are doing. I love playing the Japanese but have a difficult time with the industry. I will be reading this thread daily and taking many notes. I was wondering if you would be willing to chat via email from time to time when I have a question or a problem.

Thanks again for all your hard work.

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RE: The Japanese Economy - 7/29/2009 6:25:51 PM   
Q-Ball


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Status: offline 		On-Map training is more prevalent now (I think), and not the kind where you bomb Chinese troops over and over, rather just "Training". Nates are fine for that, and will be the whole war.

I hadn't noticed that change in the Pool, in WITP you got something like 700 Nates at start in the Pool. We might actually need to make a few now?

Not only that, but there are other production decisions that changed. In WITP, Alf was a useful plane because it had more range than Jake. Now, Jake is the hands-down winner. No reason to make Alf.

< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 7/29/2009 6:26:08 PM >

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