Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: hellfirejet

Yes Leander class light cruisers have 8 x 21" TT but that won't help much because Graf Spee had radar which as you know can see through smoke.

quote:

ORIGINAL: hellfirejet

No your correct just for detection,just meant that Graf Spee could locate the light cruisers through smoke if need be,so smoke screen would not help them thats all.

I never mentioned radar directed gunfire !!!!!!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: hellfirejet

Yes Leander class light cruisers have 8 x 21" TT but that won't help much because Graf Spee had radar which as you know can see through smoke.

Well, I'm not a naval war expert, but I believed that radar directed gunfire was much less precise than normal gunfire, and that during WW2 only the Americans had used radar directed gunfire successfully during the naval battles in the Surigao straits in late 1944 against Japanese ships with which they had no visual contact, and that this was the first occurence of such a fight.

I believed that the radars installed in warships, especially the first models that the warships of 1939 / 1940 had, were only useful for navigation and detection, not gun directing.

Am I wrong ?

quote:

ORIGINAL: hellfirejet

All true but in my eyes it's better to go down fighting than let yourself be scuttled,maybe a bit to agressive, but I would have taken the damage,closed the range on Exeter and blown her out of the water,then turned my attention on the those annoying light cruiser,with my main + secondary armaments,I don't think Ajax or Achilles could have withstood much 11in shell damage before being SUNK,they can't shadow and give position reports if they are at the bottom of the south atlantic,the army and airforce were fighting and taking heavy losses,the navy should have done the same,I mean they were supposed to be at war.

All reports after the battle showed that it was Exeters 8in shells, that were penetrating Admiral Graf Spee armour and doing damage,Ajax and Achilles 6in shells in general were not penetrating her armour,so the damage they were inflicting was more annoying than a major concern.After Exeter had been sunk, I feel the light cruisers would have had to try and increase the range or suffer the same fate of Exeter.

Then when at there max 6in gun range any hits would be fewer, but Admiral Graf Spees 11in shells with the aid of plunging fire, would go through Ajax & Achilles armour like a hot knife through butter,with only one outcome the destruction of the ship.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: hellfirejet

All true but in my eyes it's better to go down fighting than let yourself be scuttled,maybe a bit to agressive, but I would have taken the damage,closed the range on Exeter and blown her out of the water,then turned my attention on the those annoying light cruiser,with my main + secondary armaments,I don't think Ajax or Achilles could have withstood much 11in shell damage before being SUNK,they can't shadow and give position reports if they are at the bottom of the south atlantic,the army and airforce were fighting and taking heavy losses,the navy should have done the same,I mean they were supposed to be at war.

All reports after the battle showed that it was Exeters 8in shells, that were penetrating Admiral Graf Spee armour and doing damage,Ajax and Achilles 6in shells in general were not penetrating her armour,so the damage they were inflicting was more annoying than a major concern.After Exeter had been sunk, I feel the light cruisers would have had to try and increase the range or suffer the same fate of Exeter.

Then when at there max 6in gun range any hits would be fewer, but Admiral Graf Spees 11in shells with the aid of plunging fire, would go through Ajax & Achilles armour like a hot knife through butter,with only one outcome the destruction of the ship.

I think you underestimate what damage the always aggressive, and skilled, English could do. Maybe they would try to do smoke screens and get in close and torpedo Admiral Graf Spee. That is asuming that the light cruisers had torpedos.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Given the discussion above, please see attached the write up for Graf Spee, which is finished subject to any comment.

[4784 Graf Spee - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine(s) output: 54,000 hp
.B Top Speed: 28 knots
.B Main armament: 6 x 11-inch (280mm), 8 x 5.9-inch (150mm) guns
.B Displacement (full load): 16,200 tons
.B Thickest armour: 3-inch (belt)
.P Under the terms of the Treaty of Versailles, the German Navy was allowed
to build warships up to a 10,000 ton displacement and with 11-inch main armament.
These limitations were designed to restrict the type of vessel that the Germans
could realistically build. Nothing more than a coastal defence type unit was
likely to be achieved within these limitations..or so it was thought.
.P However, the German designers came up with a design that met the restrictions
but provided a useful, modern, surface raider. The key principle was that the
ships had to be more powerful than any faster ship and faster than any more
powerful ship, and this was true at the time they were built, with the exception
of the three Royal Navy battlecruisers: Hood, Repulse and Renown.
.P The ships used diesel engines, which were more economical than steam turbines,
something necessary for a surface raider. The use of diesel also meant that the
engines produced less smoke; again a bonus given their planned deployment.
.P To the Germans, these were panzerschiffe or armoured ships. To the British
they became known as pocket-battleships. However, as with all ships, there were
compromises to be made. The class were thinly armoured and had all their main
armament concentrated in just two turrets.
.P Up to eight ships were planned originally, but only three were laid down and
completed before the appearance of the French Dunkerque-class made the Germans
re-think future ships.
.P In 1940 they were re-classified as heavy cruisers.
.P Graf Spee was completed in January 1936. She set out for her first deployment
on the 21st August 1939, eleven days before the outbreak of the Second World War.
Her task was to get herself in position in the South Atlantic to await the order
to begin attacking Allied merchant shipping. To assist her operation, the supply
ship Altmark had sailed at the beginning of August for the USA where she loaded
up with fuel and other stores for the Graf Spee`s future use (see Transport
Counter 4822).
.P It was only on the 26th September that Graf Spee was given the opportunity to
attack but Captain Langsdorff, in command of the Graf Spee, was also given orders
not to attack enemy naval vessels, even if more lightly armed than his own.
Furthermore, his ability to attack merchant shipping was restricted because of
the Prize Regulations. After the propaganda disaster that was the U-30`s attack
on the liner Athenia, no attacks on passenger vessels were allowed either.
.P The British and French formed eight hunting groups to try and track down the
surface raiders. These hunting groups initially consisted of four aircraft
carriers, three battlecruisers and thirteen cruisers that were spreadout to cover
the vast expanses of the North, South and Indian Oceans. It was like looking for
needle in a haystack.
.P In the period September to December 1939, the Graf Spee sank nine merchant
ships totalling just over 50,000 GRT in the South Atlantic and the Indian Oceans.
During these nine sinkings, no Allied sailors were killed, as Langsdorff followed
the Prize Regulations. The merchant sailors captured were then transferred to the
Altmark as and when Graf Spee rendezvoused with her supply ship.
.P In early December, Langsdorff decided it was time to head back to Germany.
Graf Spee was starting to feel the effects of almost four months at sea and her
engines needed maintenance. Langsdorff decided to sail for the rich pickings to
be found off the River Plate estuary on the South American trade route, before
beginning the voyage back to Germany.
.P This was where the Royal Navy`s Commodore Henry Harwood, had guessed that Graf
Spee would go next. Harwood was in command of Force G that consisted of the heavy
cruiser Exeter and the light cruisers Achillies and Ajax. Harwood had devised a
plan of attack to beat the pocket-battleships using a cruiser force before the
war; this plan was about to be put into effect.
.P Langsdorff had grown increasingly frustrated by his orders which were clear;
he could not engage with enemy naval forces. Contrary to popular belief, it was
not Harwood that spotted and then attacked Graf Spee; rather it was Langsdorff
that spotted the Royal Navy cruisers and chose to do battle. His decision to
engage on the morning of the 13th December was a risky one as he needed to sink
or sufficiently cripple his opponents. If he did not, Graf Spee would not have
the speed to shake off a subsequent shadowing by the cruisers who would bring
every available ship down on the panzerschiffe.
.P The battle started at 0617hrs when Graf Spee opened up her 11-inch guns at
just over 21,500 yards. She headed at top speed toward the cruisers in order
to close the range. Exeter took the brunt of Graf Spee`s initial salvos which
were deadly accurate, but three minutes later, Exeter was able to return fire
and scored a hit on one of the German 4.1-inch anti-aircraft guns and her fresh
water plant. Graf Spee then scored a direct hit on Exeter`s B turret and
splinters from this shell smashed into her bridge killing almost everyone there.
Exeter`s Captain Bell was wounded, but was able to continue giving orders from
the secondary control position.
.P Meanwhile, the light cruisers had begun opening fire at 0622hrs and at about
0630hrs, with Exeter having taken severe punishment, Langsdorff turned his
attention to Ajax and Achilles. While the three ships fired at each other, Exeter
used the respite to launch an unsuccessful torpedo strike. Graf Spee then turned
her attention back to the heavy cruiser once more and for about ten minutes the
two ships, Exeter with just four guns left, duelled. The Graf Spee was hit twice
more but by now Exeter had just one turret operational. Graf Spee switched target
once more and Achilles was badly damaged by an 11-inch shell near missing her.
Her director control tower became a bloody mass of bodies. This damage affected
the firing accuracy of Achilles and both she and Ajax were having problems
hitting their target. After this, Graf Spee switched back one final time to
Exeter, resulting in the heavy cruiser breaking off the engagement at 0729hrs
when her third and final turret went out of action.
.P However, Graf Spee had not got away unscathed and her forward turret had given
her problems intermittently during the battle. The two remaining cruisers started
to hit the German ship more frequently, although many of the British shells were
simply bouncing off the German ship`s armour belt. Graf Spee responded with a
shell that took out both X and Y turret on Ajax. It was now 0730hrs and the range
was 11,000 yards. Ajax launched a torpedo strike, as did Graf Spee but neither
were successful. The fighting continued until 0740hrs, when Harwood decided to
withdraw in order to attack at night; but Graf Spee did not follow. Instead
Langsdorff headed west towards the River Plate, shadowed by the two bruised and
bloodied light cruisers. From time to time the pursuers strayed into range of the
enemy guns and had to withdraw under smokescreen, but they ensured that they
remained sufficiently close to Graf Spee so as not to lose her. Surprisingly,
Langsdorff made for the neutral country of Uruguay and Montevideo harbour rather
than the more friendly Argentina.
.P Once there, he asked the Uruguayans for time to effect repairs to his ship.
However, under international law Graf Spee could only remain in the neutral port
for 24 hours. In addition, she could not leave port less than 24 hours after a
merchant ship belonging to a country she was at war with had left port. The
British, acutely aware that there were no capital ships close to Uruguay at that
time told the captains of British and French merchant vessels in Montevideo to
leave at 24 hour intervals in order to keep Graf Spee holed up. However,
Langsdorff was in no hurry to go anywhere. He could not know there were no other
warships anywhere close to Montevideo other than the two light cruisers that Graf
Spee had just evaded, but he seemed to convince himself there were. No doubt
false intelligence fed to the Germans that this was the case did nothing to
dispel such thoughts, and it was rumoured that a large force of capital ships,
including an aircraft carrier, were anchored off the River Plate. In the end,
Langsdorff decided to scuttle his ship rather then have her interned in Uruguay
or have her fight a hopeless battle against what he thought were superior forces.
Langsdorff killed himself shortly after the scuttling.

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Given the discussion above, please see attached the write up for Graf Spee, which is finished subject to any comment.

[4784 Graf Spee - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine(s) output: 54,000 hp
.B Top Speed: 28 knots
.B Main armament: 6 x 11-inch (280mm), 8 x 5.9-inch (150mm) guns
.B Displacement (full load): 16,200 tons
.B Thickest armour: 3-inch (belt)
.P Under the terms of the Treaty of Versailles, the German Navy was allowed
to build warships up to a 10,000 ton displacement and with 11-inch main armament.
These limitations were designed to restrict the type of vessel that the Germans
could realistically build. Nothing more than a coastal defence type unit was
likely to be achieved within these limitations..or so it was thought.
.P However, the German designers came up with a design that met the restrictions
but provided a useful, modern, surface raider. The key principle was that the
ships had to be more powerful than any faster ship and faster than any more
powerful ship, and this was true at the time they were built, with the exception
of the three Royal Navy battlecruisers: Hood, Repulse and Renown.
.P The ships used diesel engines, which were more economical than steam turbines,
something necessary for a surface raider. The use of diesel also meant that the
engines produced less smoke; again a bonus given their planned deployment.
.P To the Germans, these were panzerschiffe or armoured ships. To the British
they became known as pocket-battleships. However, as with all ships, there were
compromises to be made. The class were thinly armoured and had all their main
armament concentrated in just two turrets.
.P Up to eight ships were planned originally, but only three were laid down and
completed before the appearance of the French Dunkerque-class made the Germans
re-think future ships.
.P In 1940 they were re-classified as heavy cruisers.
.P Graf Spee was completed in January 1936. She set out for her first deployment
on the 21st August 1939, eleven days before the outbreak of the Second World War.
Her task was to get herself in position in the South Atlantic to await the order
to begin attacking Allied merchant shipping. To assist her operation, the supply
ship Altmark had sailed at the beginning of August for the USA where she loaded
up with fuel and other stores for the Graf Spee`s future use (see Transport
Counter 4822).
.P It was only on the 26th September that Graf Spee was given the opportunity to
attack but Captain Langsdorff, in command of the Graf Spee, was also given orders
not to attack enemy naval vessels, even if more lightly armed than his own.
Furthermore, his ability to attack merchant shipping was restricted because of
the Prize Regulations. After the propaganda disaster that was the U-30`s attack
on the liner Athenia, no attacks on passenger vessels were allowed either.
.P The British and French formed eight hunting groups to try and track down the
surface raiders. These hunting groups initially consisted of four aircraft
carriers, three battlecruisers and thirteen cruisers that were spreadout to cover
the vast expanses of the North, South and Indian Oceans. It was like looking for
needle in a haystack.
.P In the period September to December 1939, the Graf Spee sank nine merchant
ships totalling just over 50,000 GRT in the South Atlantic and the Indian Oceans.
During these nine sinkings, no Allied sailors were killed, as Langsdorff followed
the Prize Regulations. The merchant sailors captured were then transferred to the
Altmark as and when Graf Spee rendezvoused with her supply ship.
.P In early December, Langsdorff decided it was time to head back to Germany.
Graf Spee was starting to feel the effects of almost four months at sea and her
engines needed maintenance. Langsdorff decided to sail for the rich pickings to
be found off the River Plate estuary on the South American trade route, before
beginning the voyage back to Germany.
.P This was where the Royal Navy`s Commodore Henry Harwood, had guessed that Graf
Spee would go next. Harwood was in command of Force G that consisted of the heavy
cruiser Exeter and the light cruisers Achillies and Ajax. Harwood had devised a
plan of attack to beat the pocket-battleships using a cruiser force before the
war; this plan was about to be put into effect.
.P Langsdorff had grown increasingly frustrated by his orders which were clear;
he could not engage with enemy naval forces. Contrary to popular belief, it was
not Harwood that spotted and then attacked Graf Spee; rather it was Langsdorff
that spotted the Royal Navy cruisers and chose to do battle. His decision to
engage on the morning of the 13th December was a risky one as he needed to sink
or sufficiently cripple his opponents. If he did not, Graf Spee would not have
the speed to shake off a subsequent shadowing by the cruisers who would bring
every available ship down on the panzerschiffe.
.P The battle started at 0617hrs when Graf Spee opened up her 11-inch guns at
just over 21,500 yards. She headed at top speed toward the cruisers in order
to close the range. Exeter took the brunt of Graf Spee`s initial salvos which
were deadly accurate, but three minutes later, Exeter was able to return fire
and scored a hit on one of the German 4.1-inch anti-aircraft guns and her fresh
water plant. Graf Spee then scored a direct hit on Exeter`s B turret and
splinters from this shell smashed into her bridge killing almost everyone there.
Exeter`s Captain Bell was wounded, but was able to continue giving orders from
the secondary control position.
.P Meanwhile, the light cruisers had begun opening fire at 0622hrs and at about
0630hrs, with Exeter having taken severe punishment, Langsdorff turned his
attention to Ajax and Achilles. While the three ships fired at each other, Exeter
used the respite to launch an unsuccessful torpedo strike. Graf Spee then turned
her attention back to the heavy cruiser once more and for about ten minutes the
two ships, Exeter with just four guns left, duelled. The Graf Spee was hit twice
more but by now Exeter had just one turret operational. Graf Spee switched target
once more and Achilles was badly damaged by an 11-inch shell near missing her.
Her director control tower became a bloody mass of bodies. This damage affected
the firing accuracy of Achilles and both she and Ajax were having problems
hitting their target. After this, Graf Spee switched back one final time to
Exeter, resulting in the heavy cruiser breaking off the engagement at 0729hrs
when her third and final turret went out of action.
.P However, Graf Spee had not got away unscathed and her forward turret had given
her problems intermittently during the battle. The two remaining cruisers started
to hit the German ship more frequently, although many of the British shells were
simply bouncing off the German ship`s armour belt. Graf Spee responded with a
shell that took out both X and Y turret on Ajax. It was now 0730hrs and the range
was 11,000 yards. Ajax launched a torpedo strike, as did Graf Spee but neither
were successful. The fighting continued until 0740hrs, when Harwood decided to
withdraw in order to attack at night; but Graf Spee did not follow. Instead
Langsdorff headed west towards the River Plate, shadowed by the two bruised and
bloodied light cruisers. From time to time the pursuers strayed into range of the
enemy guns and had to withdraw under smokescreen, but they ensured that they
remained sufficiently close to Graf Spee so as not to lose her. Surprisingly,
Langsdorff made for the neutral country of Uruguay and Montevideo harbour rather
than the more friendly Argentina.
.P Once there, he asked the Uruguayans for time to effect repairs to his ship.
However, under international law Graf Spee could only remain in the neutral port
for 24 hours. In addition, she could not leave port less than 24 hours after a
merchant ship belonging to a country she was at war with had left port. The
British, acutely aware that there were no capital ships close to Uruguay at that
time told the captains of British and French merchant vessels in Montevideo to
leave at 24 hour intervals in order to keep Graf Spee holed up. However,
Langsdorff was in no hurry to go anywhere. He could not know there were no other
warships anywhere close to Montevideo other than the two light cruisers that Graf
Spee had just evaded, but he seemed to convince himself there were. No doubt
false intelligence fed to the Germans that this was the case did nothing to
dispel such thoughts, and it was rumoured that a large force of capital ships,
including an aircraft carrier, were anchored off the River Plate. In the end,
Langsdorff decided to scuttle his ship rather then have her interned in Uruguay
or have her fight a hopeless battle against what he thought were superior forces.
Langsdorff killed himself shortly after the scuttling.

quote:

ORIGINAL: hellfirejet

Yip your right again they were not designed to engage Battleships,and that the newer battleships were faster the French Dunkerque's approx 30 knots compared to the Pocket battleships 28 knots,not to be to disrespectful to the French navy but they did not do much during the war either!

In regard to fighting more than one target,her 6 x 11in main armament could engage the most powerful opponent, while her 8 x 5.9in secondary could keep other targets busy,as at the battle of the river plate that I mentioned earlier proved, she was more than capable of taking on more than one opponent.


Name: Admiral Graf Spee
Namesake: Maximilian von Spee
Laid down: 1 October 1932
Launched: 30 June 1934
Commissioned: 6 January 1936
Nickname: Graf Spee
Fate: Scuttled 17 December 1939
General characteristics
Class and type: Deutschland class Heavy cruiser
Displacement: 12,100 t standard;
16,200 t full load
Length: 610 ft 3 inch
Beam: 70 ft 10 inch
Draught: 24 ft 3 inch
Propulsion: 3 shafts Eight 9-cylinder double-acting two-stroke MAN diesels
two screws, 52,050 hp
Speed: 28.5 knots (53 km/h)
Range: 8,900 nautical miles at 20 knots (16,500 km at 37 km/h)
Or
19,000 nautical miles at 10 knots (35,000 km at 18.5 km/h)
Complement: 1001-1,150
Electronic warfare
and decoys: Early version of Seetakt radar
Armament:
6 × 280 mm (11 inch)
8 × 150 mm (5.9 inch)
6 × 105 mm (4.1 inch)
8 × 37 mm
10 × 20 mm
8 × 533 mm (21 inch) torpedo tubes
Armour:
turret face: 5.6 inch
belt: 3 inch
torpedo bulkhead: 1.9 inch
deck: 1.6 inch
control tower : 6 inch
Aircraft carried: Two Arado 196 seaplanes, one catapult

quote:

These hunting groups initially consisted of four aircraft
carriers, three battlecruisers and thirteen cruisers that were spreadout to cover
the vast expanses of the North, South and Indian Oceans. It was like looking for
needle in a haystack.

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

quote:

These hunting groups initially consisted of four aircraft
carriers, three battlecruisers and thirteen cruisers that were spreadout to cover
the vast expanses of the North, South and Indian Oceans. It was like looking for
needle in a haystack.

I believe you mean "North Atlantic, South Atlantic, and Indian Oceans"?

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

quote:

These hunting groups initially consisted of four aircraft
carriers, three battlecruisers and thirteen cruisers that were spreadout to cover
the vast expanses of the North, South and Indian Oceans. It was like looking for
needle in a haystack.

I believe you mean "North Atlantic, South Atlantic, and Indian Oceans"?

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: hellfirejet

quote:

ORIGINAL: hellfirejet

Yip your right again they were not designed to engage Battleships,and that the newer battleships were faster the French Dunkerque's approx 30 knots compared to the Pocket battleships 28 knots,not to be to disrespectful to the French navy but they did not do much during the war either!

In regard to fighting more than one target,her 6 x 11in main armament could engage the most powerful opponent, while her 8 x 5.9in secondary could keep other targets busy,as at the battle of the river plate that I mentioned earlier proved, she was more than capable of taking on more than one opponent.


Name: Admiral Graf Spee
Namesake: Maximilian von Spee
Laid down: 1 October 1932
Launched: 30 June 1934
Commissioned: 6 January 1936
Nickname: Graf Spee
Fate: Scuttled 17 December 1939
General characteristics
Class and type: Deutschland class Heavy cruiser
Displacement: 12,100 t standard;
16,200 t full load
Length: 610 ft 3 inch
Beam: 70 ft 10 inch
Draught: 24 ft 3 inch
Propulsion: 3 shafts Eight 9-cylinder double-acting two-stroke MAN diesels
two screws, 52,050 hp
Speed: 28.5 knots (53 km/h)
Range: 8,900 nautical miles at 20 knots (16,500 km at 37 km/h)
Or
19,000 nautical miles at 10 knots (35,000 km at 18.5 km/h)
Complement: 1001-1,150
Electronic warfare
and decoys: Early version of Seetakt radar
Armament:
6 × 280 mm (11 inch)
8 × 150 mm (5.9 inch)
6 × 105 mm (4.1 inch)
8 × 37 mm
10 × 20 mm
8 × 533 mm (21 inch) torpedo tubes
Armour:
turret face: 5.6 inch
belt: 3 inch
torpedo bulkhead: 1.9 inch
deck: 1.6 inch
control tower : 6 inch
Aircraft carried: Two Arado 196 seaplanes, one catapult

Radar is listed in this Graf Spee description I listed earlier.If I have one critisim of Warspite1 writeup it is this,I feel that this description lists far more detail about Admiral Graf Spee than his,sorry Robert.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

...despite these monumental efforts in the face of the Luftwaffe, the
Soviets hold on Odessa was weakened...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

...despite these monumental efforts in the face of the Luftwaffe, the
Soviets hold on Odessa was weakened...

It should be "the Soviet's hold on Odessa" or "the Soviet hold on Odessa"

Cheers, Neilster

quote:

P During the siege, the Soviet Baltic Fleet were used to provide naval gunfire
support to the defenders and to bring in reinforcements.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

quote:

P During the siege, the Soviet Baltic Fleet were used to provide naval gunfire
support to the defenders and to bring in reinforcements.

Black Sea fleet, perhaps?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

...despite these monumental efforts in the face of the Luftwaffe, the
Soviets hold on Odessa was weakened...

It should be "the Soviet's hold on Odessa" or "the Soviet hold on Odessa"

Cheers, Neilster

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

quote:

P During the siege, the Soviet Baltic Fleet were used to provide naval gunfire
support to the defenders and to bring in reinforcements.

Black Sea fleet, perhaps?

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


As you all know, the write-ups are “chrome” that have been added, to give the counters we push around the board (or more accurately now, drag and drop across the computer screen) added historical flavour and value; for those of us who are interested in that sort of thing.

The write-ups in no way speed up or slow down the MWIF release date, however it would be nice to get these as complete as possible come the game`s release.

To that end I need some serious help! There are some counters that are important in the context of WWII history and so would be nice to have written up. The problem is the time taken for research and planning the counters as much as the actual write ups.

There are two distinct problems:

Submarines

As much as I love the naval aspect, submarine warfare has never been a favourite of mine and as a result, I know next to nothing. This means I have to do a ton of reading to plan out the counters before I can even begin the write-ups. All the German, French, Italian and US subs are yet to be started.

Required

Would anybody be interested in a) doing some research and planning what each counter would be used for (i.e. split by class, variant or whatever), b) what sub(s) would be written about in each counter.

In order of priority I would say Germans followed by US, Italian then French. The Japanese and all other navies except the CW need to be started, or the small number that have been done, needs reviewing.

For example, see CW counter below. There were enough counters to do one or more examples of all the main classes of RN sub. Each write up contains a brief history of the RN subs, the particular class and then the boat itself.

[4742 Submarine - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine(s) output: 800 hp (Surfaced) 760 hp (Submerged)
.B Top Speed: 12.75 knots (Surfaced), 9 knots (Submerged)
.B Main armament: 4 x 21-inch torpedo tubes and 1 x 12-pdr gun
.B Displacement (Fully Submerged): 740 tons
.B Diving Depth: 300 ft
.P These World In Flames counters represent a number of submarines rather
than any specific individual submarine. The dates printed on the back of the
counters do not tie up in any meaningful way with build dates for the various
classes of Royal Navy (RN) submarine class and therefore the counter date in
most cases should be ignored. These Commonwealth submarine write-ups contain the
usual technical data, followed by a brief history of one or more submarines from
each of the main classes that saw action during the Second World War.
.P The British initially tried to get the submarine outlawed during the inter-
war years. When this policy failed, Britain tried through treaty to limit the
number of submarines that would be available to any potential enemy. When Hitler
ordered the expansion of the Kriegsmarine in the mid-thirties, U-boat building
was allowed at up to 100% of the RN submarine tonnage (although in theory, this
meant tonnage being taken from surface ship allowances). At the start of the
Second World War, the RN had fifty-nine submarines, of which all but twelve
could be considered modern vessels.
.P This write-up looks at the U-class submarines. This class of submarine was
designed originally as an unarmed training vessel, with the first group of three
boats being ordered in 1936. However, the coming of war changed these plans and
their design was altered to allow six forward mounted torpedo tubes, including
two external tubes. The external tubes were not a success however and they were
removed in later models.
.P The boats were small at 191 feet long, of a single, riveted hull design. They
featured a diesel-electric drive system, which used electric motors to turn the
propellers, relegating the diesel engines to charging of the batteries and
generating electricity for the motors; this was a first for the RN. They proved
manoeuvrable vessels that were quick to dive.
.P Some of the later boats began with the letter V as the RN found difficulty in
finding enough appropriate words beginning with the letter U!
.P The group III boats, also known as the V-class, were built to a slightly
larger design, with a length of 205 feet, and were slightly faster on the
surface. They used a welded hull and could dive an additional 100 feet. The data
above reflects these changes.
.P Although there were numerous problems with the initial design, these were
soon ironed out and this class became one of the most successful submarine
classes of the Second World War. Seventy of these submarines were built, serving
with the Free French, Dutch, Norwegian, Russian, Polish, Danish and Greek
navies.
.P
.P HMS Venturer
.P HMS Venturer was from group III or the V-class. She was completed in August
1943 and after work-up she joined the 9th Submarine Flotilla then based in
Scotland.
.P She had a number of victories to her name; she sank the German merchant ship
Thor in March 1944 off Stadlandet, Norway and the Friedrichshafen the following
month. In September, she disposed of the Norwegian vessel Vang and was then
lucky to escape from an attack by enemy shore batteries two days later whilst
trying to attack a convoy.
.P Then in November, she sank the first of two German submarines. Her first
victim was the U-771 which she engaged on the 11th November, again off the
Norwegian coast. There were no survivors from the German vessel.
.P Her second U-boat success gave Venturer a unique place in World War II
history; she is believed to be the only submarine of any nationality to have
sunk a submerged enemy submarine while submerged herself. The incident took
place in February 1945 west of Bergen, when Venturer, commanded by Lt Jimmy
Landers, took on U-864, commanded by Kapitan Ralf-Reimar Wolfram.
.P The British were aware from intelligence reports that the Germans were going
to attempt to send vital materials and plans to Japan in order that she could
continue the war; Operation Caesar. U-864`s cargo included jet fighter parts
and missile guidance systems. In addition, she carried around seventy tons of
mercury.
.P The operation got off to a bad start in late 1944 as U-864 ran aground in the
Kiel canal. However, she was able to get to Bergen, where she underwent repairs.
It was only at the start of February 1945 that she was able to sail once more.
.P Venturer was ordered to intercept her, but the German vessel had already
passed the patrol area that Venturer had been assigned. However, the bad luck
that U-864 had already encountered on its ill-fated mission continued. She was
struck by mechanical problems and so had no choice but to return for further
repair. This meant her passing back through Venturer`s patrol area. The Germans
sent an escort to meet U-864 and in order to avoid detection, Landers decided to
turn off his sonar system, and use his more basic hydrophone equipment. This
decision would make the search for the German U-boat more difficult but would
also make detection by the German escorts more difficult.
.P On the 9th February, Venturer made contact, and after confirming sight of
the U-boat`s periscope through his own periscope, Landers decided to follow the
U-boat and attack when she surfaced. Unfortunately for Landers, Wolfram soon
realised he was being followed and tried to shake off the pursuing RN vessel.
.P For Landers it was decision time. With each minute, U-864 would get closer to
the safety of Bergen and the escorts waiting to accompany it to the Norwegian
port. He decided to strike, even though U-864 was still submerged. The German
vessel was zig-zagging and so Landers had to decide how best to launch his four
torpedoes. With no computers to assist his calculations, he came up with a
firing solution. He ordered all four torpedoes be fired at precise times and at
various depths and courses.
.P Wolfram and the crew of U-864 heard the torpedoes and took evasive action. He
managed to avoid the first three torpedoes but not the fourth. This hit the
U-boat, causing her sinking with all 73 crew.
.P In March, Venturer sank the German merchant Sirius. After the war ended, she
was transferred to the Royal Norwegian Navy, whereupon her name was changed to
Utstein.
.P HMS Venturer/Utstein was scrapped in 1965.


Transports / Amphibious / ASW

Again few of these have been done (CW excepted) and the US in particular must have a ton of stories – especially in the Pacific. I have posted examples of CW counters for all of these unit types on this thread previously. The only critical country here is the US.

Any assistance would be extremely gratefully received – but be warned – it’s a lot of work!!

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

...despite these monumental efforts in the face of the Luftwaffe, the
Soviets hold on Odessa was weakened...

It should be "the Soviet's hold on Odessa" or "the Soviet hold on Odessa"

Cheers, Neilster

or "the Soviets' hold"

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

quote:

P During the siege, the Soviet Baltic Fleet were used to provide naval gunfire
support to the defenders and to bring in reinforcements.

Black Sea fleet, perhaps?

Welcome to the forum. And you are correct, of course.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

quote:

P During the siege, the Soviet Baltic Fleet were used to provide naval gunfire
support to the defenders and to bring in reinforcements.

Black Sea fleet, perhaps?

Welcome to the forum. And you are correct, of course.

Welcome? Bah! How could you have forgotten me already? I did the United States Marine Corps writeups. That's 6 entire units out of only several thousand!

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I have begun looking at the US carriers and have started with the famous Essex carriers. Please see attached. As usual I would be greatful for feedback - particularly since I have three books given me three different numbers - 3, 4 and 5-inch -for the belt armour!

[4016 Antietam - by Robert Jenkins]

quote:


USS Antietam, named after perhaps the bloodiest of the US Civil War battles
was from the Ticonderoga group and was commissioned in January 1945. She was en-
route to the waters off Japan when the armistice was signed and so was not to
see combat during the Second World War.
.P USS Antietam was scrapped in 1974.