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Force Z sucide Run - 8/3/2009 4:39:43 PM   
Przemcio231


Posts: 1901
Joined: 10/11/2005
From: Warsaw,Poland,EU:)
Status: offline 		Hmmmm i think the sucide run should be deleted from 7th December Scenario. The ships got hit on 10th December and using historical first turn they either get clobbered on the 8th or not at all. I feal that the players should decide if they want to send them on their dead raid or maybe use them other way

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RE: Force Z sucide Run - 8/3/2009 4:40:48 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Did you see the earlier thread on this? Don't forget that you need to add one day because of the dateline. They had actually sailed out of Singapore at the point of the start of the scenario, as I understand it.

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RE: Force Z sucide Run - 8/3/2009 4:55:39 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline 		And they got clobbered after VAdm Phillips decided to turn around...of course had they made it to Khota Baharu, they'd have gotten clobbered by Kongo/Haruna as well. The two capital ships of Force Z were an even match for the Kongo's, but they didn't have air cover or adequate escort. If they had made it there, and air power played a role, the result would have likely been the same.

Although I have seen the AI do serious damage with a Force Z sent to Khota Baharu, so you never know...

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RE: Force Z sucide Run - 8/3/2009 5:07:45 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		Force Z left Singapore 1710 Dec 8th local time, which was 2310 Dec 7th Hawaii time. This was mentioned in previous thread.

They don't always sink; in my game I got PoW, but Repluse got away.

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Post #: 4
RE: Force Z sucide Run - 8/3/2009 5:30:07 PM   
Fletcher


Posts: 3386
Joined: 10/26/2006
From: Jerez, Spain, EU
Status: offline 		Allied players usually run out with Force Z saiLing to secure waters at Java or Ceylan, I ever think this was a gamey. Every players knows the Betty-Nell threat, but in dec 1941, VADM Phillips had not care about, when he was adVice by RAF at Singapore that he can not await any air cover, FORCE Z run to north looking for japanese amphibius forces. The airpower was not a uNbalanced factor in Any naval battle before dec.1941.

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RE: Force Z sucide Run - 8/3/2009 5:30:24 PM   
ChickenOfTheSea


Posts: 579
Joined: 6/7/2008
From: Virginia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Przemcio231

Hmmmm i think the sucide run should be deleted from 7th December Scenario. The ships got hit on 10th December and using historical first turn they either get clobbered on the 8th or not at all. I feal that the players should decide if they want to send them on their dead raid or maybe use them other way


The fix for this is incredibly simple. Turn historic first turn off. Change the orders for Force Z. Execute turn. Everything is the same except Force Z.

You could also change the task force orders or even location in the editor.



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RE: Force Z sucide Run - 8/3/2009 5:36:44 PM   
Shark7


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From: The Big Nowhere
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fletcher

Allied players usually run out with Force Z saiLing to secure waters at Java or Ceylan, I ever think this was a gamey. Every players knows the Betty-Nell threat, but in dec 1941, VADM Phillips had not care about, when he was adVice by RAF at Singapore that he can not await any air cover, FORCE Z run to north looking for japanese amphibius forces. The airpower was not a uNbalanced factor in Any naval battle before dec.1941.


Actually, wasn't Vadm Phillips quoted as stating 'There are no torpedo bombers about.' when informed that the Betties were making torpedo runs by one of his subordinates?

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RE: Force Z sucide Run - 8/3/2009 6:17:28 PM   
John Lansford

 

Posts: 2662
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Status: offline 		They don't always get sunk; in my campaign PoW wasn't hit and Repulse managed to stagger back into Singapore with 80+ flotation damage.  She'll probably stay there until the city surrenders and be scuttled, but it's not certain that they'll be sunk every time.

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Post #: 8
RE: Force Z sucide Run - 8/3/2009 6:32:41 PM   
moonraker65


Posts: 556
Joined: 7/14/2004
From: Swindon,Wilts. UK
Status: offline 		I sent them back to Singapore after the first attack. Repulse sustained 1 Torp hit and 1 bomb hit with 14 sys and 34 flt damage. Then added in some other RN ships from Singapore and evacuated them sharpish to Colombo.

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Post #: 9
RE: Force Z sucide Run - 8/3/2009 7:15:27 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Force Z left Singapore 1710 Dec 8th local time, which was 2310 Dec 7th Hawaii time.



I think the basic complaint with this is that the TF didn't leave Singapore until the early evening of the first turn (December 7th/8th depending on which side of the dateline). In the game, they are usually attacked, and often sunk, during the first daylight turn phase---or basically BEFORE they even left port historically.

They don't last two days to be attacked on the 10th..., they don't even last two minutes. It's not history, it's a scenario design device. You want history? Turn "Historical First Turn" OFF. Otherwise accept the scenario designer's choice.

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Post #: 10
RE: Force Z sucide Run - 8/3/2009 7:21:55 PM   
steveh11Matrix


Posts: 944
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline 		Yup: In my first three "Let's see what this puppy does" startups both were sunk quickly, but then I decided to start 'for real' and this time around PoW took one torp for light damage only and Repulse has just (12th Dec) staggered into Singapore - I'd imagine with one hell of a list and a lot more draught then normal, based on the flotation damage... She may get out of Singapore if I can patch her up, but she's a definite mission kill for the next year. Currently PoW is the nearest thing to an operational dreadnought in the Pacific - though I'll get Warspite and Colorado back from Seattle soon.

My first instinct (and initial reaction, as posted on the other thread) was to edit the startup for Force Z. Further thought has changed that. After all, we don't shriek that the battleships ought to be on the West Coast instead of sitting ducks at Pearl, do we? Let the dice fly, and deal with it.

Steve.

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RE: Force Z sucide Run - 8/3/2009 7:37:30 PM   
Scott_USN

 

Posts: 715
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: Eagle River, Alaska USA
Status: offline 		I go the BB back to Colombo BC sunk :(

IN my first game they both survived by taking them back to Batavia not Singapore...

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Post #: 12
RE: Force Z sucide Run - 8/3/2009 7:40:06 PM   
Puhis


Posts: 1737
Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Royal Navy didn't know the words 'running away'. 

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RE: Force Z sucide Run - 8/3/2009 8:12:31 PM   
Przemcio231


Posts: 1901
Joined: 10/11/2005
From: Warsaw,Poland,EU:)
Status: offline 		Ahhh ok found it Any way in my game Force Z survived to

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Post #: 14
RE: Force Z sucide Run - 8/3/2009 8:21:37 PM   
RHoenig


Posts: 89
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

Royal Navy didn't know the words 'running away'. 


Have to agree here

In my game, PoW and Repulse get sunk along with the DD Tenedos.
I would have almost sent the cover force to new targets but then decided to let them stay just a day longer.

Imagine my suprise, when the remaining three DDs from Force Z showed up at Kota Bharu during the night after.

It got tense, when both TFs spotted each other at 1000 yards and I realy expected the torps to start hitting, but the IJN was lucky.
Haruna blew Vampire out of the water (using their 15cm secondaries) and, Asashio I belive, put a Long Lance into Electra. Then the Express retreated, but got an 8 inch shell as a goodby gift from Takao.

Those brits sure deserve some medals for bravery, not for clear thinking though


Ralph Hoenig, Germany


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Post #: 15
RE: Force Z sucide Run - 8/3/2009 8:28:27 PM   
Przemcio231


Posts: 1901
Joined: 10/11/2005
From: Warsaw,Poland,EU:)
Status: offline 		Well i decided against the sucide Run when my ships survived:)

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Post #: 16
RE: Force Z sucide Run - 8/3/2009 8:47:13 PM   
mjk428

 

Posts: 1944
Joined: 6/15/2002
From: Western USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Force Z left Singapore 1710 Dec 8th local time, which was 2310 Dec 7th Hawaii time.



I think the basic complaint with this is that the TF didn't leave Singapore until the early evening of the first turn (December 7th/8th depending on which side of the dateline). In the game, they are usually attacked, and often sunk, during the first daylight turn phase---or basically BEFORE they even left port historically.

They don't last two days to be attacked on the 10th..., they don't even last two minutes. It's not history, it's a scenario design device. You want history? Turn "Historical First Turn" OFF. Otherwise accept the scenario designer's choice.



Sums it up perfectly for me. Except I chose to beat history.

Always ran "Historic First Turn" in WitP but couldn't stomach the loss of PoW via someone else's choice. So I turned it off and restarted.

PoW is now assigned to guarding Java and eventually (if she survives) Western Australia.

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RE: Force Z sucide Run - 8/3/2009 9:29:06 PM   
alanschu

 

Posts: 405
Joined: 12/21/2006
Status: offline 		I actually support this decision, since we as gamers have foresight that make us go "Why on Earth would I send my ships to death?"

I'm sure the Allies would have loved to have a mulligan on PoW and Repulse, and to be honest I find saving the ships to be an immensely advantageous move.  The PoW is a beast of a ship.

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Post #: 18
RE: Force Z sucide Run - 8/3/2009 9:37:15 PM   
mjk428

 

Posts: 1944
Joined: 6/15/2002
From: Western USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: alanschu

I actually support this decision, since we as gamers have foresight that make us go "Why on Earth would I send my ships to death?"

I'm sure the Allies would have loved to have a mulligan on PoW and Repulse, and to be honest I find saving the ships to be an immensely advantageous move.  The PoW is a beast of a ship.




I find being able to move half way across the map in any direction without losing the element of surprise immensely advanageous. I'll not save PoW if the Japs promise not to invade Rabaul until after Christmas. The only reason that move is pre-programmed is because of the advantage of historical hindsight.

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RE: Force Z sucide Run - 8/3/2009 9:44:32 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
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From: Kansas City, MO
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quote:

ORIGINAL: alanschu

I actually support this decision, since we as gamers have foresight that make us go "Why on Earth would I send my ships to death?"

I'm sure the Allies would have loved to have a mulligan on PoW and Repulse, and to be honest I find saving the ships to be an immensely advantageous move.  The PoW is a beast of a ship.



But isn't the whole point of playing a "simulation game" to be able to make these decisions yourself? Isn't the standard phrase "Otherwise why not just read a book?" Or does this only apply to the Japanese side?

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RE: Force Z sucide Run - 8/3/2009 9:51:01 PM   
alanschu

 

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quote:

The only reason that move is pre-programmed is because of the advantage of historical hindsight.


Of course it is.


The thing is, the Japanese get the movement bonus for a single turn (and it's a moot point if you play historical first turn, since their orders are preprogrammed anyways).  Keeping the Prince of Wales and Repulse provides an advantage far beyond a single day.

I take my chances with Force Z and let the ships attempt their run.  After they get attacked, if they survive, I retreat.  I lost Repulse but PoW is heavily crippled in Singapore's shipyard at the moment.  She might be able to see some active duty, but probably not for about year.

I also support quick landings of Rabaul because if the Japanese AI is completely predictable, then it makes the game even easier.


If I wanted I could have chosen in my game to leave Wake Island to be dead, but at the time there were only surface ships so with Lexington being nearby, I assisted, bombing several ships.  Unfortunately the Kido Butai got wind of this and was able to launch a strike force that left Lexington and two cruisers at the bottom of the ocean.  With foresight I knew it was a risky manouver, but leaving the Marines on Wake Island to die without a single attempt to help them seems gamey.  Imagine the morale of the rest of the soldiers as Prince of Wales and Repulse buggers off and abandons the British forces to go help the Dutch.

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RE: Force Z sucide Run - 8/3/2009 9:51:26 PM   
Graymane


Posts: 520
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: Bellevue, NE
Status: offline 		These ships need to be in port unless a way can be found to make sure they aren't attacked until the 10th. At this point, I'm just playing the Dec. 8th scenario (not just because of this). Seems to make more sense for me. Can't get more "historical" then just starting the next day with all the day 1 attacks done

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RE: Force Z sucide Run - 8/3/2009 10:02:11 PM   
mjk428

 

Posts: 1944
Joined: 6/15/2002
From: Western USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: alanschu

quote:

The only reason that move is pre-programmed is because of the advantage of historical hindsight.


Of course it is.


The thing is, the Japanese get the movement bonus for a single turn (and it's a moot point if you play historical first turn, since their orders are preprogrammed anyways).  Keeping the Prince of Wales and Repulse provides an advantage far beyond a single day.

I take my chances with Force Z and let the ships attempt their run.  After they get attacked, if they survive, I retreat.  I lost Repulse but PoW is heavily crippled in Singapore's shipyard at the moment.  She might be able to see some active duty, but probably not for about year.

I also support quick landings of Rabaul because if the Japanese AI is completely predictable, then it makes the game even easier.


If I wanted I could have chosen in my game to leave Wake Island to be dead, but at the time there were only surface ships so with Lexington being nearby, I assisted, bombing several ships.  Unfortunately the Kido Butai got wind of this and was able to launch a strike force that left Lexington and two cruisers at the bottom of the ocean.  With foresight I knew it was a risky manouver, but leaving the Marines on Wake Island to die without a single attempt to help them seems gamey.  Imagine the morale of the rest of the soldiers as Prince of Wales and Repulse buggers off and abandons the British forces to go help the Dutch.





No doubt. Of course morale also nosedived when I saw PoW & Repulse sunk right after I pushed the "Start Scenario" button.

Sure, I feel dirty for what I did. It still beats writing all those letters home - I don't have the option of going down with the ship.

The real issue for me wasn't saving the ship or not, it was having the decision made for me. Once I restarted I then felt obligated to send her south.

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RE: Force Z sucide Run - 8/3/2009 10:13:52 PM   
mjk428

 

Posts: 1944
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From: Western USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Graymane

These ships need to be in port unless a way can be found to make sure they aren't attacked until the 10th. At this point, I'm just playing the Dec. 8th scenario (not just because of this). Seems to make more sense for me. Can't get more "historical" then just starting the next day with all the day 1 attacks done



I would have happily used the Dec 8th scenario but I wasn't sure if it got the same level of attention by the design team as the Grand Campaign.

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RE: Force Z sucide Run - 8/3/2009 10:20:55 PM   
wpurdom

 

Posts: 476
Joined: 10/27/2000
From: Decatur, GA, USA
Status: offline 		I'm in the camp with the scenario designer's choice being more historically accurate. The Brits had been dealing with incessant German air attacks in the Med and anticipated the Japs being inferior to the Germans. Big surprise! Pearl Harbor was discounted because it was a surprise attack in a harbor like Taranto. There's no way that Force Z refuses to do its job of attempting to interfere with the invasion any more than Cunningham would have turned away from the invasion of Crete.
After the Japs have had their shot, then the Brits can reevaluate their capabilities. Letting the Allied player opt out of the Japanese attack on Force "Z" is like letting the Americas send their BB's back to the Coast before Pearl Harbor.

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Post #: 25
RE: Force Z sucide Run - 8/3/2009 10:22:06 PM   
Swayin


Posts: 317
Joined: 1/27/2007
From: Bellingham, WA
Status: offline 		Isn't the point of this game, in many respects, to try your own luck at doing better than history? I mean, just because a commander sent his ships on a suicide run doesn't make it "gamey" to decide *not* to do that, IMO.

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RE: Force Z sucide Run - 8/3/2009 10:27:42 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		Until Force Z, no ship larger than a heavy cruiser had ever been sunk by aircraft at sea. Couple this with the RN tradition of aggressiveness, and Phillip's orders to do something to stop the Japanese, and I am in the camp that this needs to happen.

We players have the advantage of hindsight of course. But this lesson IRL could only be learned the hard way.



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RE: Force Z sucide Run - 8/3/2009 10:29:53 PM   
anarchyintheuk

 

Posts: 3921
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From: Dallas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

Royal Navy didn't know the words 'running away'. 



There was an incident in WWI where an admiral from a famous RN family, Troubridge, commanding an AC squadron well . . . I wouldn't say ran away from the BC Goeben during its run accross the Med . . . perhaps veered off is a better term. The uproar from that event was probably rattling around in Phillip's head.

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Post #: 28
RE: Force Z sucide Run - 8/3/2009 10:32:42 PM   
Swayin


Posts: 317
Joined: 1/27/2007
From: Bellingham, WA
Status: offline 		I also think this "traditional of aggressiveness" is overstated ... Jellicoe's waffling thirty years before shows that, IMO. I'm not saying anyone is wrong here - I think everyone is *right*, regardless of how they choose to play it out.

again, just my 2 pennies.

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Post #: 29
RE: Force Z sucide Run - 8/3/2009 11:28:02 PM   
esteban


Posts: 618
Joined: 7/21/2004
Status: offline 		I have always thought the "Force Z bugout" strategy was bogus. Historically, these ships were sent to Singapore precisely to break up Japanese landings in the area. Nobody at the time suspected that the Japanese could successfully launch torpedo bombers over a distance of 400-500 miles, and it would have been a scandal for Force Z to run for their lives without trying and leave Percival's troops to their fate. Keep in mind that Churchill (a former First Lord of the Admiralty in both WW1 and the beginning of WW2) himself had championed sending these ships to Singapore. How do you think he would have reacted to a December 8 message saying "We realize you and the army were counting on us to oppose the Japanese fleet in these waters, and that the Australian government has publicly stated that holding Singapore is vital to the defense of their dominion, but based on my own estimation of Japanese airpower I have abandoned our pre-eminent Southeast Asian base and its garrison and moved the squadron to Ceylon/Java"

The reply back would have been something like "Dear Seaman 3rd Class--once you get there, report to the base commander for toilet scrubbing duties more befitting your value to the empire."

On the timing side, the first turn was always a bit wierd anyway. The Japanese didnt land on North Luzon and Legaspi until the 10th of December or something like that historically, but in WitP they invade first turn.

Options:

--Do historical turn 1 and hope the Japanese pilots missed the "war starts today!" memo
--Do non-historical turn 1 and take your chances that the Japanese invasion fleets warp across the Pacific invading 20 islands in one day.

With the new pilot training rules the Allies need to do the "Sir Robin" has already been greatly reduced.

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Post #: 30
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