Why no fighters in Australia and India?

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Why no fighters in Australia and India?

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Why no fighters in Australia and India? - 8/7/2009 8:36:22 PM

Speedy Gonzales

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I noticed that since Wirraways can't be used as fighters anymore there is not a single fighter anywere on the whole continent of Australia. In WitP I used to rush some Wirraways to PM, they were quite hopeless but better than nothing. Lae has fallen (dec. 21st) and Rabaul is about to fall. As soon as the AI realises I am sneaking some units to PM my ships will be sitting ducks without any fighter cover. If even the Netherland, defeated since may 1940, has some fighters in the DEI, surely Australia could afford to have some squadrons of their own.

Also I couldn't find any fighters in India. What happened to the Hurricanes from WitP? Surely there must have been some fighters in India, even some Gloser Gladiators would be better than nothing.

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RE: Why no fighters in Australia and India? - 8/7/2009 8:39:11 PM

Terminus

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That's what they had. You'll get Hurricanes soon enough.

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RE: Why no fighters in Australia and India? - 8/7/2009 8:41:45 PM

Speedy Gonzales

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Really, not a single fighter neither in Australia nor in India.

And tiny defeated Holland could afford two dozen Brewsters in the DEI

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RE: Why no fighters in Australia and India? - 8/7/2009 8:42:04 PM

Admiral Scott

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Is that true?

Australia had no fighters at all at the outbreak of war?

How could that be?

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RE: Why no fighters in Australia and India? - 8/7/2009 8:45:34 PM

Terminus

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Well, what they had was in the MTO. Army, Navy and Air Force.

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RE: Why no fighters in Australia and India? - 8/7/2009 8:49:50 PM

Terminus

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According to Bloody Shambles, the entire air strength of the RAAF in and around Australia on December 7th consisted of 101 Wirraways, 55 Hudsons, 12 Catalinas and 11 Seagulls. That's it.

Oh, and the DEI was not "tiny, defeated Holland", but a self-sufficient entity.

Seems to come as a bit of a shock to some people around here just how badly prepared the Allies were.

< Message edited by Terminus -- 8/7/2009 8:51:31 PM >

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RE: Why no fighters in Australia and India? - 8/7/2009 8:49:56 PM

moonraker65

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You do get re-inforcements in January '42. Aden gets 4 Hurricane Squadrons destined for India that I've seen so far and at least 5 P-40 Squadrons (USAAF) arrive at Brisbane so you can start to plan where to put those after they arrive. You also get a Squardon of A-24 Banshees arrive st Brisbane.

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RE: Why no fighters in Australia and India? - 8/7/2009 8:55:01 PM

Terminus

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RAF Far East Command began the war with 155 operational aircraft, and 88 non-operational spares. The numbers rack up as follows: 60 + 52 Buffaloes, 39 + 15 Blenheims, 29 + 12 Vildebeests, 24 + 7 Hudsons and 3 + 2 Catalinas.

To compare, the IJAAF and IJNAF forces immediately tasked to the Malaya campaign had just under 1100 aircraft.

< Message edited by Terminus -- 8/7/2009 8:56:20 PM >

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RE: Why no fighters in Australia and India? - 8/7/2009 10:20:21 PM

jeffk3510

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus
Seems to come as a bit of a shock to some people around here just how badly prepared the Allies were.

If you don't read up on your history yes, which you have a very in depth knowledge it appears.

...But yes, I am shocked too at how many people are not aware of how badly prepared the Allies were.

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RE: Why no fighters in Australia and India? - 8/7/2009 10:39:06 PM

Barb

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus
To compare, the IJAAF and IJNAF forces immediately tasked to the Malaya campaign had just under 1100 aircraft.

A bit overshoot dont you think?
3rd Air division could have something like 350 aircrafts of all types and 22nd Air flotilla around 180 planes and 30 float planes. Would give us cca 560.

(Still almost 4:1)

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RE: Why no fighters in Australia and India? - 8/7/2009 10:56:32 PM

Terminus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus
To compare, the IJAAF and IJNAF forces immediately tasked to the Malaya campaign had just under 1100 aircraft.

A bit overshoot dont you think?
3rd Air division could have something like 350 aircrafts of all types and 22nd Air flotilla around 180 planes and 30 float planes. Would give us cca 560.

(Still almost 4:1)

Well duh... I "conveniently" overlooked that this total included 5th Air Division and 21st and 23rd Air Flotillas in Formosa. I'm getting old.

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RE: Why no fighters in Australia and India? - 8/7/2009 11:45:44 PM

pad152

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The Wirraways were built as trainers but, used as fighters and for just about everything else (doubt they were used in the ASW role).

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RE: Why no fighters in Australia and India? - 8/7/2009 11:48:56 PM

Brady

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152

The Wirraways were built as trainers but, used as fighters and for just about everything else (doubt they were used in the ASW role).�

They were used in the ASW role, TimTom has a real nice operations log for one unit showing they flew scores of ASW partoles.

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RE: Why no fighters in Australia and India? - 8/7/2009 11:53:38 PM

pad152

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Funny even the Kingfisher, USN Seagull, and Seagull V can be placed on CAP/LR CAP, they even have sweep missions but, not the Wirraways!

The RAAF's most dangerous air plane at the start of war! Just wait till I train this one and it starts shooting down zeros!

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by pad152 -- 8/7/2009 11:59:47 PM >

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RE: Why no fighters in Australia and India? - 8/8/2009 12:21:32 AM

Reg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Admiral Scott

Is that true?

Australia had no fighters at all at the outbreak of war?

How could that be?

That's why when P-40s arrived in March 1942 it was such a big deal.

No.75 Squadron was formed, became operational and was in combat over Port Moresby in under two weeks. (This was made possible by drafting experienced personnel from the RAAF Middle East squadrons).

Note that the RAAF "70"s series squadrons are all fighter squadrons and No. 75 was the first.

Edit: This was also the reason the locally designed Boomerang fighter (based on the Wirraway) was developed and made it's first flight within an amazing 6 weeks!!!!

< Message edited by Reg -- 8/8/2009 2:49:16 AM >

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RE: Why no fighters in Australia and India? - 8/8/2009 2:05:09 AM

Reg

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You might find a bit more information on this topic at the following link:

P-40s replacements in Dec'41 to Jan'42

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RE: Why no fighters in Australia and India? - 8/8/2009 2:30:13 AM

Reg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

According to Bloody Shambles, the entire air strength of the RAAF in and around Australia on December 7th consisted of 101 Wirraways, 55 Hudsons, 12 Catalinas and 11 Seagulls. That's it.

Oh, and the DEI was not "tiny, defeated Holland", but a self-sufficient entity.

Seems to come as a bit of a shock to some people around here just how badly prepared the Allies were.

This is only the strength of combat aircraft in frontline squadrons.

A further 108 Wirraways were evenly divided between Nos 2, 5 and 6 Service Flying Training Schools (SFTS) while others were with Aircraft Depots and other flying training establishments. This does not include large numbers Tigermoths, Avro Ansons, Airspeed Oxfords, Fairly Battles and other sundry trainers involved in the Empire Air Training Scheme (EATS).

The use of EATS training aircraft in a combat role was problematic at best. A bunch of pilots and a few aircraft do not make an (effective) combat squadron. There are instances of combat squadrons working up very quickly (75 Squadron RAAF in 1942 being a good example) but these were usually the result of a conscious decision to do so and required a priority on resources. The key positions 75 Squadron were filled with combat veterans from the Middle East.

Another issue was the disruption to the EATS training itself. The training program was very ambitious and Australia was barely able to make the quotas as it was. Australia took its EATS obligations very seriously (sending aircrew overseas whilst Australia itself was under threat) and would not have diverted EATS resources except as an absolute last resort.

Additionally, the aircraft themselves were British assets and would not have been released except under extenuating circumstances.

EDIT: (to save a new post)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady

quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152

The Wirraways were built as trainers but, used as fighters and for just about everything else (doubt they were used in the ASW role).

They were used in the ASW role, TimTom has a real nice operations log for one unit showing they flew scores of ASW partoles.

So were Avro Ansons which are now included in the game.

< Message edited by Reg -- 8/8/2009 2:43:06 AM >

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RE: Why no fighters in Australia and India? - 8/8/2009 2:33:38 AM

Shark7

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Well, according the the RAAF official site, the Wirraway was used in an interceptor role, though total air to air kills by the end of the war was 1 A6M2 shot down. They sucked at it for sure, but when its all ya got, its all ya got.

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RE: Why no fighters in Australia and India? - 8/8/2009 5:34:25 AM

rhohltjr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

.... and 11 Seagulls. That's it.

How about some specs on those Seagulls please? What is their most efficient altitude? Are those birds carrier capable? I'll bet there were more than 11.

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