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PH or Manila on day 1 for JFB

 
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PH or Manila on day 1 for JFB - 8/8/2009 3:17:51 PM   
BeastieDog


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I used to favor hitting Manila with the KB on Dec 7 in WitP to have it available for POW and Boise. I've run several AE turn 1s in the GC against the AI and most of the time it seems you can beat the historical PH results and sink POW and Repulse. However, the PTs now seem to be protected by force fields and play havoc with my PI landings unless I get them first. And a human player will probably use them even more aggressively. As before, it looks to me like a choice between having the KB where I would like it on December 8 or rack up the numbers at PH.

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RE: PH or Manila on day 1 for JFB - 8/8/2009 3:28:17 PM   
RHoenig


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Personally, being the newbe that I am, I allready hate subs, therefore I go for the subs at manila. Sinking/cripling 20 allied subs from the get go is, in my opinion, a lot more valuable, than taking out a couple of obsolecent BBs at Pearl, especially now, when my shipping capacity is seriously limited.
Of course, I am paying the price right now, in that the AI is sending a carrier taskforce of at least two CVs around Kwajalein pounding at my troop shipments there (yeah, should have sent a couple of Zero/Betty units down there at turn 2 or so)

I love/hate the AI

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"Tell the King: After the battle my head is at his disposal, during the battle he may allow me to use it!
GenLt. Seydlitz to Frederik the Great after disobeying an order to attack

R. Hoenig, Germany

(in reply to BeastieDog)
Post #: 2
RE: PH or Manila on day 1 for JFB - 8/8/2009 4:00:17 PM   
Kitakami


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Well... I do not know... it depends what you want to do. There is something to be said in favor of crippling/sinking the old battlewagons. Tying up valuable repair space is one (for the cripples), getting you nearer an automatic victory is another (for the sinks). And the POW and Repulse can at least be hurt most of the time, so that leaves only the Houston and the Boise to contend with.

Yet, sinking all those subs is a tempting proposition in the long run. 20 less boats to worry about when the US torpedo starts working would make a diference I bet.

I guess it comes down to playing style. For me, it is PH first, and then invading PM asap with KB support. Then I can send KB to the DEI to have fun :)

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RE: PH or Manila on day 1 for JFB - 8/8/2009 5:42:06 PM   
SireChaos

 

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quote:

Yet, sinking all those subs is a tempting proposition in the long run. 20 less boats to worry about when the US torpedo starts working would make a diference I bet.


Many of the subs at Manila are old S type boats, who have the more reliable Mk 10 torpedo - they´re the Allies´ most dangerous subs in ´42.

(in reply to Kitakami)
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RE: PH or Manila on day 1 for JFB - 8/8/2009 10:05:51 PM   
EwingNJ

 

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Pssssst, hey, all you JFBs, take note.  On turn 1 focus on Kiska.  Have KB there as well as the majority of your invasion forces.  It is the key.  Trust me on this, really, I mean it.

(in reply to SireChaos)
Post #: 5
RE: PH or Manila on day 1 for JFB - 8/9/2009 3:43:33 AM   
grraven2004


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I go for PH. Park the mini KB south of Davao and you can even bag the Boise and possibly the Houston.

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RE: PH or Manila on day 1 for JFB - 8/9/2009 5:22:59 AM   
Wirraway_Ace


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RHoenig

Personally, being the newbe that I am, I allready hate subs, therefore I go for the subs at manila. Sinking/cripling 20 allied subs from the get go is, in my opinion, a lot more valuable, than taking out a couple of obsolecent BBs at Pearl, especially now, when my shipping capacity is seriously limited.



How many subs will you have to sink to equal one 185 pt BB? There also a lot of modern CLs and DDs (and a few subs) at PH that sinking or seriously damaging really limits the USN's operations until replacements arrive.

The Asiatic Fleet at Manila is not a strategic target. A bunch of old DDs, on CA and one CL; all tactically dispersed. While the subs were supposed to be the offensive arm of the fleet, they were still a very questionable force including a number of S-boats (known as "pig boats"). Additionally, it is questionable whether many of the subs could have been caught in port the way the game engine allows. 2 were being overhauled, but the rest were dispersed with their tenders. The PI would have been much harder to surprise with a naval strike than PH. Given a wiff of an enemy carrier or land based bomber strike, the execs would have had their boats submerged (as did happen with at least one sub)

(in reply to RHoenig)
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RE: PH or Manila on day 1 for JFB - 8/9/2009 5:25:09 AM   
Mynok


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Too many points to be had at Pearl to just leave on the floor IMO. Those old PI subs aren't the threat that the later subs will be.


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Post #: 8
RE: PH or Manila on day 1 for JFB - 8/9/2009 7:29:42 AM   
RHoenig


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace


quote:

ORIGINAL: RHoenig

Personally, being the newbe that I am, I allready hate subs, therefore I go for the subs at manila. Sinking/cripling 20 allied subs from the get go is, in my opinion, a lot more valuable, than taking out a couple of obsolecent BBs at Pearl, especially now, when my shipping capacity is seriously limited.



How many subs will you have to sink to equal one 185 pt BB? There also a lot of modern CLs and DDs (and a few subs) at PH that sinking or seriously damaging really limits the USN's operations until replacements arrive.

The Asiatic Fleet at Manila is not a strategic target. A bunch of old DDs, on CA and one CL; all tactically dispersed. While the subs were supposed to be the offensive arm of the fleet, they were still a very questionable force including a number of S-boats (known as "pig boats"). Additionally, it is questionable whether many of the subs could have been caught in port the way the game engine allows. 2 were being overhauled, but the rest were dispersed with their tenders. The PI would have been much harder to surprise with a naval strike than PH. Given a wiff of an enemy carrier or land based bomber strike, the execs would have had their boats submerged (as did happen with at least one sub)



This might be true in WitP and might be true in AE.

My thinking was, however, not about points (but you would have to count in the poins for the ships those subs will NOT sink).

With the way each and every transport is now worth its weight in gold, I gathered taking out the main threat to them right from the start, would be more important than "cashing in some points", especially during the expansion phase.

What good will it do, if I get 1000 points at Pearl, but in 43/44 my economy comes to a screeching halt, due to lack of transport space to haul oil back to the HI? (yes, I know, a little too early to judge how effective sub warfare will be, but if each sub sinks only 2 or 3 of my freighters over the course of the game, that will be 50 ships not at the bottom and that many more lift capacity)

I am also looking at this from a threat level.
Those BBs are no immediate threat, the subs are.


_____________________________

"Tell the King: After the battle my head is at his disposal, during the battle he may allow me to use it!
GenLt. Seydlitz to Frederik the Great after disobeying an order to attack

R. Hoenig, Germany

(in reply to Wirraway_Ace)
Post #: 9
RE: PH or Manila on day 1 for JFB - 8/9/2009 8:04:05 AM   
Jim D Burns


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There are only 4 or 5 S-boats at Manila, and the chance you'll sink all of them is pretty slim. The rest of the subs are probably better off shuttling supplies into Manila until the DEI bases that produce those supplies are taken or Manila falls, but combined the subs barely carry 800 points.

So attacking Manila will leave the allies with about 300-400 points worth of sub lift on average (assuming you kill about half), which isn't a dramatic enough reduction in my book to warrant passing up on the victory points you'll lose by not sinking any US battleships.

From the allied perspective, sending the Manila subs after Japan's navy has merit, but repairs are much harder to accomplish than before and I've seen my subs get hit by depth charges in about 80% of the attacks they've attempted.

So very soon they'll mostly all be on route to west coast repair yards if you use them that way, and Manila won't be getting the bi-weekly supply runs the subs could be making instead, which translates to several thousand supply points in the first few months and ultimately means a much faster fall of the Philippines.

I'd say use the non-S boat subs to shuttle supplies until Manila falls and use the S-boats for local sub attacks around Luzon. After Manila falls, there isn't a large enough port left to allow subs to unload quickly anymore, so that's the time to use them to go after the Japanese fleet until their system damage forces a withdraw or their first refit dates roll around.

Jim


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RE: PH or Manila on day 1 for JFB - 8/9/2009 8:23:29 AM   
RHoenig


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I don´t wanna argue, everyone does as he sees fit

Just what KB did to Manila (I had the Manila attack three times now and the results were allways similar)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Manila , at 79,77

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 45 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 90
B5N2 Kate x 143
D3A1 Val x 126



Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 5


Japanese aircraft losses
D3A1 Val: 1 destroyed


Allied Ships
xAP Neptuna, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AS Holland, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
SS Tarpon, Bomb hits 2, heavy damage
SS Pickerel, Bomb hits 2
SS Seawolf, Bomb hits 3, and is sunk
SS Sealion, Bomb hits 2, and is sunk
SS Porpoise, Bomb hits 2, and is sunk
SS S-41, Bomb hits 3, and is sunk
DD Pope, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
PT-34, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
SS Stingray, Bomb hits 4, and is sunk
SS Searaven, Bomb hits 2, and is sunk
SS Sturgeon, Bomb hits 2, and is sunk
SS Sargo, Bomb hits 4, and is sunk
PT-32, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
xAK Yu Sang, Bomb hits 2, on fire
SS Permit, Bomb hits 2, and is sunk
AM Whippoorwill, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
SS Sailfish, Bomb hits 1
SS Saury, Bomb hits 3, and is sunk
xAKL Bisayas, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
DD Peary, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
TK Gertrude Kellogg, Bomb hits 1, on fire
SS S-40, Bomb hits 2, and is sunk
xAK Tantalus, Bomb hits 1, on fire
PG Asheville, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
SS Seal, Bomb hits 3, and is sunk
DD John D. Ford, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Pillsbury, Bomb hits 3, and is sunk
SS S-37, Bomb hits 2, and is sunk
SS Salmon, Bomb hits 2, and is sunk
AVD Childs, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
SS Skipjack, Bomb hits 1, heavy damage
SS Perch, Bomb hits 1, heavy damage
SS Spearfish, Bomb hits 3, and is sunk
SS Snapper, Bomb hits 2, and is sunk
PT-31, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
xAKL Anakan, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
SS Pike, Bomb hits 1
AS Canopus, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAKL Don Jose, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AV Langley, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Si Kiang, Bomb hits 1, on fire
PG Isabel, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
PT-33, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
AO Pecos, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
xAKL Sagoland, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
PG Tulsa, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAKL Corregidor, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk


Allied ground losses:
72 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 13 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 2 (0 destroyed, 2 disabled)
Vehicles lost 2 (0 destroyed, 2 disabled)


Repair Shipyard hits 2
Port hits 16
Port fuel hits 2
Port supply hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
17 x D3A1 Val diving from 10000'
Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
27 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet
Port Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb
3 x A6M2 Zero strafing at 100 feet
25 x D3A1 Val diving from 10000'
Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
27 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet
Port Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb
17 x D3A1 Val diving from 10000'
Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
9 x A6M2 Zero strafing at 100 feet
18 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet
Port Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb
17 x D3A1 Val diving from 10000'
Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
18 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet
Port Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb
1 x A6M2 Zero strafing at 100 feet
19 x D3A1 Val diving from 10000'
Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
27 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet
Port Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb
25 x D3A1 Val diving from 10000'
Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
26 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet
Port Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb
4 x A6M2 Zero strafing at 100 feet
6 x D3A1 Val diving from 10000'
City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
4 x A6M2 Zero strafing at 100 feet

CAP engaged:
35th PG/21st PS with P-40E Warhawk (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 11000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 64 minutes



I´m counting 16 sunk subs and 3 with heavy damage. To me it looks as if the Manila Sub Fleet is dead.
As I said, 3 times out of 3, it was allways very similar, at least 15 subs were sunk.



_____________________________

"Tell the King: After the battle my head is at his disposal, during the battle he may allow me to use it!
GenLt. Seydlitz to Frederik the Great after disobeying an order to attack

R. Hoenig, Germany

(in reply to Jim D Burns)
Post #: 11
RE: PH or Manila on day 1 for JFB - 8/9/2009 8:36:42 AM   
jomni


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What are the long term effects of this strategy?
Aren't subs easier to replace compared to capital ships?

(in reply to RHoenig)
Post #: 12
RE: PH or Manila on day 1 for JFB - 8/9/2009 8:50:51 AM   
RHoenig


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I don´t realy know

My reasoning goes something like this:

As Japan, I need any transport ship I can get my hand on (at least this is what I gather from what I read on this forum).

Each Transport NOT sunk is thus a valuable asset

If every transport brings, lets say, 3000t of oil/resources (I´m pulling numbers out my a** here) every month, this means 36.000t per year delivered - or not.
Saving only 20 transports from being sunk gives me an additional 720.000 tons of stuff per year that gets delivered to the HI instead of rotting somewhere in NEI.
Not talking about supplying garrisons, moving troops and stuff and so on and so on.

As I said, I don´t know if this is worth leaving the BBs at Pearl unscratched. You have to decide on your own



Edited to correct my faulty math

< Message edited by RHoenig -- 8/9/2009 3:37:51 PM >


_____________________________

"Tell the King: After the battle my head is at his disposal, during the battle he may allow me to use it!
GenLt. Seydlitz to Frederik the Great after disobeying an order to attack

R. Hoenig, Germany

(in reply to jomni)
Post #: 13
RE: PH or Manila on day 1 for JFB - 8/9/2009 3:44:24 PM   
Shark7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

There are only 4 or 5 S-boats at Manila, and the chance you'll sink all of them is pretty slim. The rest of the subs are probably better off shuttling supplies into Manila until the DEI bases that produce those supplies are taken or Manila falls, but combined the subs barely carry 800 points.

So attacking Manila will leave the allies with about 300-400 points worth of sub lift on average (assuming you kill about half), which isn't a dramatic enough reduction in my book to warrant passing up on the victory points you'll lose by not sinking any US battleships.

From the allied perspective, sending the Manila subs after Japan's navy has merit, but repairs are much harder to accomplish than before and I've seen my subs get hit by depth charges in about 80% of the attacks they've attempted.

So very soon they'll mostly all be on route to west coast repair yards if you use them that way, and Manila won't be getting the bi-weekly supply runs the subs could be making instead, which translates to several thousand supply points in the first few months and ultimately means a much faster fall of the Philippines.

I'd say use the non-S boat subs to shuttle supplies until Manila falls and use the S-boats for local sub attacks around Luzon. After Manila falls, there isn't a large enough port left to allow subs to unload quickly anymore, so that's the time to use them to go after the Japanese fleet until their system damage forces a withdraw or their first refit dates roll around.

Jim



Then you also have the fact that any JFB who knows what he is doing is going to be actively searching for subs early in the game when the torpedos are unreliable. It may be just as bad later, but at least in the later stages of the game your Subs will get to shoot back, and many times will get the ASW ships and get away.

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Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to Jim D Burns)
Post #: 14
RE: PH or Manila on day 1 for JFB - 8/9/2009 5:22:00 PM   
RHoenig


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From: Germany
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How effective is japanese ASW in AE?

I remember PzBs AAR where his ASW efforts were, let´s say, less than encouraging.

Is it the same in AE? (it probably should, japanese ASW was abysimal in real life)
If yes, I stand by my decision to attack Manila. If not, perhaps Pearl is the better choise


Ralph Hoenig, Germany

_____________________________

"Tell the King: After the battle my head is at his disposal, during the battle he may allow me to use it!
GenLt. Seydlitz to Frederik the Great after disobeying an order to attack

R. Hoenig, Germany

(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 15
RE: PH or Manila on day 1 for JFB - 8/9/2009 7:38:48 PM   
Chickenboy


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From: San Antonio, TX
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RHoenig,

I think it's a 'push'. There are some benefits to wiping out the Asiatic Fleet submarine force, particularly for any IJA troop landings in the area that now won't be harassed by the SS fleet.

If you spared PH entirely, however, you'll have to deal with 8 (?) BBs of the fleet now available where they historically were not. Although slow and not state of the art, these could play havoc with early IJN or IJA landings in the Southern theater where you lack decisive airpower to cover your landings. With aircover, if deployed against Port Moresby or Guadalcanal landings, for example, they could prove decisive in any surface combat.

As an Allied player, I'd love to have these BBs available to stem the early IJ tide. The AE surface combat routine has given surface combatants a new lease on life and some real teeth to defense.

There's also the matter of destroying 130+ aircraft on the ground in the PI and damaging port and airfield facilities. Sure, the aircraft there are not state of the art aircraft. However, undestroyed A/C in PH won't require drawing off the scarce pool of Allied fighters (e.g., P-40s, F4F-3s). These groups (with PP payment) could be redeployed to other areas in the SW Pacific or South Pacific and make IJ gains there considerably more difficult / costly / impossible (?).

I'd say that having an intact PH will seriously crimp IJ plans on the Central, South and Southwest Pacific.

That's my two bits worth.

(in reply to RHoenig)
Post #: 16
RE: PH or Manila on day 1 for JFB - 8/9/2009 7:59:31 PM   
Q-Ball


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It's a tough call, I am probably still inclined to PH if for no other reason than that's what happened historically.

A side benefit to hitting Manila is that there are more options available to the Japanese after the attack. You can position the strike so that everything sailing from Manila will get sunk (other than subs), and the follow-up puts you closer to the southern DEI and other areas that are target-rich and in support of other operations.

_____________________________


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Post #: 17
RE: PH or Manila on day 1 for JFB - 8/13/2009 6:57:00 AM   
jomni


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Something just struck me.  Do you think that the pacific war would not have escalated so much if the Japanese did not strike PH?  Maybe the Western powers will just give up their colonies once they are lost to Japan.

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 18
RE: PH or Manila on day 1 for JFB - 8/13/2009 4:10:31 PM   
johnbmac

 

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PBEM rookie has a question.....is there some reason you can't hit PH with KB and Manilla with Bettys and Nells?

(in reply to jomni)
Post #: 19
RE: PH or Manila on day 1 for JFB - 8/13/2009 4:24:04 PM   
EwingNJ

 

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Not likely. Remember that Hawaii in 1941 was still a Territory, as were the Phillipines. What got the American public angered were the deaths of US servicemen and the destruction to military assets from an unprovoked attack. Hawaii or the Phillipines, no difference to American sentiment. As to the UK they had to be sensative to Indian, Australian and New Zealand reaction to a Japan suddenly gone beserk on their front doorstep. Consequently I doubt the Allies reaction would have been any different.

(in reply to jomni)
Post #: 20
RE: PH or Manila on day 1 for JFB - 8/13/2009 4:24:20 PM   
bigbaba


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From: Koblenz, Germany
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you can hit PH with KB (espacialy when it seems that you can finaly sink some BB at pearl with the first strike when compared to WITP) AND kill the subs at manila with your bettys+nells+zerosfrom formosa. i dont know the numbers in AE, but in WITP, you could concentrate 80 bombers and a sufficient escort on manila harbor. in the next turn, you can change your target and do a sweep&bomb attack on clark field.

thats what i will at least try when i start a real PBEM.

maybe, with some luck, one can sink 4-5 US BB at pearl and reduce the ability of allied "nuke-bombardenets" until end of 1943. also, the KB can mount a second strike on pearl at turn 2, when the results of turn 1 attack were not good enough.

< Message edited by bigbaba -- 8/13/2009 4:27:30 PM >

(in reply to johnbmac)
Post #: 21
RE: PH or Manila on day 1 for JFB - 8/13/2009 4:25:06 PM   
Zebedee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: johnbmac

PBEM rookie has a question.....is there some reason you can't hit PH with KB and Manilla with Bettys and Nells?


If you don't take out the Allied airforce in the Phillipines by supressing their main bases on the first turn, it may be a tad expensive to hit Manilla first turn and then try to play catchup. You'd also have to move Zeros to the nearer of the Taiwanese airbases to get them within normal range (using fuel tanks) and then fly them from a level 2 air base. OP losses will be nasty, even if you can get them to escort the Betties. Lot of hassle for a dubious overall end benefit. Just my twopennyhapennyworth ;)

< Message edited by Zebedee -- 8/14/2009 1:52:59 AM >


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Post #: 22
RE: PH or Manila on day 1 for JFB - 8/13/2009 4:27:03 PM   
EwingNJ

 

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Nope. Though there tend to be house rules to account for the fact that simultaneous strikes at both places would have meant a night attack on Manilla, time zone differences.

(in reply to johnbmac)
Post #: 23
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