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June Update ... Are we there yet?

 
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June Update ... Are we there yet? - 6/6/2002 8:11:52 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		Hello all:

We're still plugging away. There are some re-writes that we're in the middle of right now. We're also doing some map changes and a few graphic / sound touch-ups. We're basically re=writing the whole combat system which will optionally allow more tactical control in combat. Sorry for the delay but I think it will be worth the wait...

Thank you

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Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games


Post #: 1
- 6/6/2002 9:34:15 PM   
Le Tondu


Posts: 564
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline 		Thanks Marshall.

A bone like this every now and then is happy news indeed! :)

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 2
- 6/7/2002 12:40:54 AM   
Reiryc

 

Posts: 4991
Joined: 1/5/2001
Status: offline 		Thanks for the info....

Good to get an update every so often =)

Reiryc

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Post #: 3
Optional tactical combat? - 6/8/2002 11:43:42 AM   
von Murrin


Posts: 1760
Joined: 11/13/2001
From: That from which there is no escape.
Status: offline 		That's an idea I really like.

I've been lurking on this particular forum way too long. Nice to hear from you, Marshall. :)

_____________________________

I give approximately two fifths of a !#$% at any given time!

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 4
Sumemr or Fall? - 6/9/2002 2:34:47 AM   
eg0master

 

Posts: 161
Joined: 3/20/2002
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		The summer is really close now... :)
And rewriting parts seams like a substantial delay. Still you talk about "touch-ups" marschall...
So what is the most probable release season? Fall or Summer?
I understand that any answer is only your gueass and not an answer on when it will be... just that your educated guess will be better than ours Marschall... :D

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 5
- 6/16/2002 2:12:33 PM   
Bromley

 

Posts: 42
Joined: 1/16/2002
Status: offline 		Having just played Birth of the Federation again, I'd like to say "Take your time" :) . It's really sad to see a good game ruined because it was rushed.

Anyway, nice of you to post the update - even with no release date info, it's good to know that the project hasn't been sidelined/dumped.

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 6
Sense of honor - 6/16/2002 11:21:30 PM   
Le Tondu


Posts: 564
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline 		From what I've seen, having the project be sidelined or dumped would run counter to Matrix's sense of honor. I believe that they would find it intolerable to let that happen.

(Ooops! The message is still the same even though.....)
:)

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Vive l'Empereur!

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 7
Definitely Not On the Shelf - 6/17/2002 12:22:50 AM   
IChristie

 

Posts: 673
Joined: 3/26/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline 		Hi to all on this forum.

For those of you whom I haven't met allow me to introduce myself - I worked on the UV map and I'm doing a similar job for WITP - I seem to be the resident Matrix "Map guy".

I know for sure that this game is not "on the shelf" because David Heath asked me to take a look at some final touch ups on the game graphics (nothing major jus tome tweaking here an there).

Anyways, this looks like its going to be a great game. I'm looking forward to being part of it. :)

_____________________________

Iain Christie
-----------------
"If patience is a virtue then persistence is it's part.
It's better to light a candle than stand and curse the dark"

- James Keelaghan

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 8
- 6/17/2002 10:28:43 PM   
Marc Hameleers

 

Posts: 26
Joined: 5/5/2000
From: Amsterdam, Netherlands
Status: offline 		Well, I have been looking forward to a Napoleonic strategy game for a long time.

After Frank Hunter s game got cancelled by legal matters, i was pretty dissapointed.

Can't wait to get my hand son this one!

Hopefully we get a chance to betatest the game. I know from EU 2 that a good Beta test REALLY can improve even a great game!!

Marc

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 9
Them bones - 6/18/2002 4:32:27 AM   
ABP

 

Posts: 38
Joined: 3/28/2002
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Hi Matrix,

It's nice that you announce that you are progressing with the game.
Would it be possible for you to update or add screenshots? I would like to see something showing what the maps are going to look like; political overlay, game play features etc. Also if you could show something of the user interface.
It should not be something you should use much time on, but you may get some valuable feed-back and suggestions.

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 10
Not quite there yet - 6/18/2002 9:22:56 AM   
IChristie

 

Posts: 673
Joined: 3/26/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline 		We don't have anything ready for screenshots yet. I've only had the graphics files for a few days. As soon as we have something new, we'll get it posted.

ic

_____________________________

Iain Christie
-----------------
"If patience is a virtue then persistence is it's part.
It's better to light a candle than stand and curse the dark"

- James Keelaghan

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 11
Combat System - 6/24/2002 11:02:00 PM   
Uncle Toby

 

Posts: 46
Joined: 6/24/2002
Status: offline 		I’m looking forward to this game as well. If it is a computerized version of ‘Empires in Arms’ that will be good enough. The combat system in EIA was not one of it’s better points the tactical decision
was trivial for the most part, had little relation to the larger game and was largely guesswork. It would be considerably improved if made more relevant and if the decisions were given depth. The strong point of EIA were it’s excellent constrained multiplay (the diplomacy particularly) and it’s delayed consequences for strategic decisions made it interesting. The game was over-detailed to a degree with things like the combat system and army organization which added to the complexity without calling for intelligent decisions. I have no problem with adding historical color but there are plenty of ways to do it that add to gameplay without being a meaningless burden.

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 12
no computerised version of EiA - 7/4/2002 6:33:51 PM   
Caranorn


Posts: 424
Joined: 8/31/2001
From: Luxembourg
Status: offline 		I think I posted this once before. This game should not, and could not be a computerised version of EiA. I've been out of touch with this discussion a while, but last I knew that game was licensed to Avalon Hill and it was uncertain under what condition it was transferred to Hasbro. Finally, the right to EiA are with Harry Rowland of ADG and I know Harry was considering reeditation of EiA if Hasbro did not use the license right away (by now if Hasbro has not done so all rights will have reverted to Harry). Considering that ADG is currently beta testing CWiF I am quite sure CEiA will also appear at some time (if CWiF works out, it's a slow progress as one single person is programming, though there is a huge alpha and beta testing community).

Copying main features from a board game to a computer game is not only unethical, but most likely illegal. I am certain Matrix is aware of this and never planned to do any such thing. In any case the EiA system was not designed for the computer and much better systems can be designed now. I hope and am almost certain that this is the case with Matrix's project.

Marc aka Caran...

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 13
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm - 7/4/2002 11:02:42 PM   
Le Tondu


Posts: 564
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline 		Marc,

You're not a lawyer by any chance are you? ;)

I don't remember that anyone said that NA will be a EiA copy or that features of EiA are gonna be copied. People are just talking about what they liked about EiA in order to give Matrix a helping hand. That is all.

Heck, we don't even have any idea about what NA is really gonna be like, so going down this path is premature (to say the least). :rolleyes:

The Napoleonic Wars isn't copyrighted and if one wants to make a strategic level game about them (that is really great), they'll have to at least consider what EiA is. I'm certain that there are features that are generic to both that aren't copyrightable. I'm not talking about copying it, I'm talking about surpassing it. AND to surpass something, one must know what it is they're gonna surpass.

I'd bet a lot that Matrix is more than well aware of your concerns. I'm even more certain that they are smarter than what you give them credit for.

_____________________________

Vive l'Empereur!

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 14
no worries - 7/5/2002 12:06:37 AM   
Caranorn


Posts: 424
Joined: 8/31/2001
From: Luxembourg
Status: offline 		No worries Le Tondu. I'm not a lawyer. But I consider myself an aspiring game designer. So I hate the idea of copying an entire game system. I know Matrix does not plan to do this (though other companies have in the past). I just wanted to make it clear once again that a copy of EiA is not an option for Matrix.

And just imagine what wargaming would be like if all we had left were cheap copies of old designs. That is what could happen some day if it really becomes uninteresting to work on new concepts as they will get stollen rapidly anyhow. As it is, only a handful of board wargame designers can earn a living working on games right now (HR of EiA by the way is not one of those).

I'll be going now, good to see that this project seems to be alive and kicking. I cannot wait to lay hands on this game once it's done.

Marc aka Caran...

P.S.: And though I speak a lot of Harry Rowland, EiA and Australian Design Group I have no direct link to any of those. I "beta" tested some rules for ADG's German branch, and for a while had email contact with HR and a bunch of other ADG folk. But that's about it. I don't work or cooperate with any otehr gaming copy at the time either. I'm just a regular, old style gamer with a dozen game designs in various states of completion on my computer and shelves.

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 15
To copy or not to copy - 7/5/2002 5:16:16 AM   
ABP

 

Posts: 38
Joined: 3/28/2002
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Hello Caranorn,

Do not misunderstand me - I do believe it is unethical and most often illegal to copy games.

I do not think this will be such an example.
- Yes it's a strategy game
- Yes it has a map of Europe as playing surface (Napoleons wars where not in Asia after all).
- Yes it has armies fighting each other.

It will without doubt be possible to find similarities in two games with the same theme. That does not mean it a copy.

I'm not a lawyer either, but it seems to me that the limits for similarity are quite wide in games.
Just look at C&C and the number of spin-offs that game created.
I haven't heard of a lot of law suits from Westwood vs. others.

It's clear that if someone makes a great game other people will try to move in the same direction, either because they get inspired or want to do it that bit better (the cynical businessmen are there as well of cause).

If we look at C&C again I don't think it hurt them one bit that spin-offs turned up. They had the original and best game concept (a bit worn thin by now imo).

If you produce the best game and promote it well enough (not necessarily expensive tv-commercials) it will be hard for other people to steal the fruits of your labour.

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 16
- 7/6/2002 8:57:14 AM   
Repo Man

 

Posts: 23
Joined: 9/17/2000
From: NY
Status: offline 		Talk about a full circle. I lurk here more often than not, but I remember posting about EiA some time ago.

All I can say is that I hope NAW uses EiA as in inspiration, and that NAW can bring the same type of following EiA did back in 1984 or whenever it was first released.

For the record, (whatever this mythical record may be), I don't think anyone is looking for a compputer version of EiA.

Thats what Aide De Camp is for anyway.

_____________________________

Repo Man

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 17
- 7/11/2002 2:22:30 AM   
ABP

 

Posts: 38
Joined: 3/28/2002
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Matrix, I hope I'm not sounding too pessimistic, but I find a bit odd that you cannot show anything new about the game. Other companies do it all the time to maintain the interest for their product. How can you not have anything to show us if you plan to release this year? Or is it so that you choose not to show your progress. I, for one, start to wonder if you will manage to release this year.:(

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 18
Let's not be too harsh on 'em. - 7/11/2002 3:15:44 AM   
Le Tondu


Posts: 564
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline 		ABP,
It is real easy to feel the way that you do. Yes, I agree that we need something to see and learn about NW. I can't disagree there.

However, it is just as easy to think that Matrix is some kind of huge software company like Microsoft when it isn't. It is really just a collection of smaller parts that make up a matrix of game developers called Matrix Games.

Look at Big Time Software as an example. They put out the incredibly phenomenal 'Combat Mission: Beyond Overlord' with only three employees! I think that they now have five employees and are about to put out CM: Beyond Barbarossa which will make even more inroads into higher wargaming qualities.

I am content with Matrix being as they are with NW. Yet, I am willing to be that your message gets some sort of result. What that'll be is beyond me. Maybe there is only one or two folks working on NW. Who knows.

In my opinion, Matrix Games, you should light a candle under the feet of the developers of NW and have them be responsive every now and again. Please?
Rick

_____________________________

Vive l'Empereur!

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 19
- 7/11/2002 5:10:59 AM   
David Heath


Posts: 3274
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Staten Island NY
Status: offline 		Hi Guys

We are working on the graphics now and lets just say we may have a very big development that I am sure will please everyone here. In either case we are hard at work on the project. Marshall you we are working on the game and plan to show it off at GenCon God willing.

This is the most we can say. Trust us Matrix Games always has someone somewhere working on a game.

David

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 20
- 7/11/2002 7:40:11 PM   
pxreiman

 

Posts: 53
Joined: 6/15/2001
From: Illinois
Status: offline 		Simply cannot wait for this one. Keep up the good work. IChristie, you are setting the standard.

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 21
Origins - 7/16/2002 5:26:04 AM   
Uncle Toby

 

Posts: 46
Joined: 6/24/2002
Status: offline 		I doubt there was anything completely original in EIA except a unique combination of rules and systems. Every component of EIA pre-existed it in some form and the creators of EIA got their ideas from other sources. A computerized version of EIA would be only one more level of development in a chain of creativity of which EIA is but one link. As long as they don’t just copy it (which, as has been said you couldn’t do anyway since a computer game is by nature different from a board game) the designers are free to use the features and ideas which EIA shares with other games. EIA was in a sense assembled out of parts created by others who were either humble or obliging enough not to obstruct it’s creation, it’s sad if people who owe so much to others are too petty and grasping to allow the liberality they themselves have benefited from.

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 22
- 7/16/2002 7:01:07 PM   
Caranorn


Posts: 424
Joined: 8/31/2001
From: Luxembourg
Status: offline 		Uncle Toby, the difference is that in general, game designers borrow some ideas from other game designers. They take ideas from various designs, not just one. The moment you set out with the idea to borrow concepts from only one game, you get dangerously close to just copying that game. Which is of course illegal.

Then again, all sugestions of copying EiA seem to have come from players, not from the matrix designers.

Marc aka Caran...

P.S.: Do you have any idea how and when Harry Rowland designed EiA? Personally I doubt he copied many ideas, most of that was original work. And he hasn't made quite as much from the games (WiF definitelly brought more money then EiA) as some might think. Board wargaming has not really been profitable for a while now.

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 23
Groniard Quiz - 7/17/2002 4:28:12 AM   
Uncle Toby

 

Posts: 46
Joined: 6/24/2002
Status: offline 		Well let’s see my ADG copy says 1983, (that would be about 11 years after I started gaming) no doubt they were working on it a few years before that but then so were others who published about the same time. It was well into a boom time for strategy games, so long the restricted to a few sources and dominated by Avalon Hill.

More to the point lets separate the unusual elements of EIA from those (a map with area movement or modifiable CRT to resolve combat for instance) so mundane as to be regarded as ubiquitous.

The unusual elements are (or were for the time, some have since become quite common):

Attrition based on seasons, movement and terrain.

Restricted supply lines.

Diplomatic system with restricted results, binding and penalty agreements.

Delayed troop construction.

Accumulated victory points based on national prestige.

Some other elements such as the political ranking of leaders are unusual but these don’t effect the game much. These systems combined with ordinary ones make EIA the game it is.

There may be more, it’s been 10 years since I played EIA last. Also some may disagree with what elements are unusual. Plenty of room for disagreement without, I think, my point being lost.

Also it should be noted that EIA was finely balanced by handicapping and restricting the interests and interaction of the players, this is a fine attribute but it is a goal (rarely achieved) rather than an element or idea.

I can think of at least one example of an idea in a game the same or very like each of these elements in EIA which predate 1983. I invite the Groniards of the board to make their own lists by way of an instructive quiz in game history.

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 24
Anxiously Awaiting Release - 7/17/2002 8:49:08 AM   
denisonh


Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/21/2001
From: Upstate SC
Status: offline 		Glad to see a strategic level game for the Napoleonic period. Been waiting a long time for this kind of game.

But by no means hurry it, as that has killed more games than satisfied customers.

_____________________________


"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid" -SGT John M. Stryker, USMC

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 25
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