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AAR Mode - 8/6/2009 9:05:31 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		Hey guys:

A small look at the AAR mode that we are adding in 1.07! this will give tracking arrows to all units, all your units or the selected unit! Now it should be a lot easier to see who moved where in PBEM when loading a turn. (JPEG is a little blury) Thoughts...






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Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games


Post #: 1
RE: AAR Mode - 8/6/2009 9:36:48 PM   
obsidiandrag


Posts: 181
Joined: 3/22/2008
From: Massachusetts, USA
Status: offline 		Looks pretty good, now is the computer going to be better at figureing out the moves it said I can make?  ie.. clicking to an area it says it can reach that it can't figure out how to, as it goes through the mountains or swamp first because it started closer to that area??

OD

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 2
RE: AAR Mode - 8/6/2009 9:39:05 PM   
Jimmer

 

Posts: 1968
Joined: 12/5/2007
Status: offline 		Looks very good.

Very nice! I like it!!!

Other features that would be nice (all as toggle options):

Remove terrain effects
Remove forage numbers
Remove ownership coloring and hashes
Allow a "spread view", where all of the corps in an area can be seen at once. It would like like someone holding a hand of cards.
Allow a version to be printable and used for planning sessions. I used to make black and white versions of the map and then color them in based on who owned and and where the forces were. That could be done by the computer nowadays.

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At LAST! The greatest campaign board game of all time is finally available for the PC. Can my old heart stand the strain?

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RE: AAR Mode - 8/6/2009 9:46:27 PM   
obsidiandrag


Posts: 181
Joined: 3/22/2008
From: Massachusetts, USA
Status: offline 		Ownership coloring and hashes can be removed by double clicking on it or the mini map, something like that.. I have done it before and wondered what happened...

OD

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Post #: 4
RE: AAR Mode - 8/6/2009 10:02:48 PM   
Jimmer

 

Posts: 1968
Joined: 12/5/2007
Status: offline 		Cool!

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RE: AAR Mode - 8/6/2009 11:09:04 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: obsidiandragon

Looks pretty good, now is the computer going to be better at figureing out the moves it said I can make?  ie.. clicking to an area it says it can reach that it can't figure out how to, as it goes through the mountains or swamp first because it started closer to that area??

OD



I hope that 1.07 will have somewhat better pathing but that's not to say that you won't find an obscure situation where it takes a goofy path.


_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to obsidiandrag)
Post #: 6
RE: AAR Mode - 8/6/2009 11:21:50 PM   
Dancing Bear

 

Posts: 1003
Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline 		Marshall, this looks very good. I'm looking forward to seeing it.

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Post #: 7
RE: AAR Mode - 8/7/2009 4:48:24 AM   
NeverMan

 

Posts: 1722
Joined: 2/24/2004
Status: offline 		I'm sure I'll get blasted... but this looks clunky.

(in reply to Dancing Bear)
Post #: 8
RE: AAR Mode - 8/7/2009 9:49:16 AM   
eske

 

Posts: 258
Joined: 1/2/2008
Status: offline 		LOL NeverMan...

When you present yourself like this:

        
... don't be surprised of the next thing your hear ....

/eske

NB: And Marshal ... plz. go on with this great feature.
Clunkiness can get reduced later, when it has seen a bit more use.

< Message edited by eske -- 8/7/2009 9:53:30 AM >

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RE: AAR Mode - 8/7/2009 12:56:26 PM   
Dancing Bear

 

Posts: 1003
Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline 		Actually I think with a tuned down colour, a thinner arrow, and perhaps an archaic type arrow, it would look pretty good. (What type of arrow would someone have drawn in the 18th Century, is anyone here a history major and can provide an example?). Like Eske says, this is a prototype. I’m all for the idea, so let’s get it out and improve it as we go.

For the future, Marshall, does the map work on Cartesian (X and Y) coordinates? Because if so, you could program the 3 separate arrows to appear a single curve passing through the point you have selected for each territory. This would generate a single smooth curve, which is more or less unique for each route, instead of three separate straight arrows (you might add dots where the curve passes through each territory, and save the arrow head for the end). This would make the map look like a map I imagine you might see in a WW1 general’s headquarters. Somebody on this site must be able to give you the formula for a parabola passing through one to three points.

(in reply to NeverMan)
Post #: 10
RE: AAR Mode - 8/7/2009 2:29:33 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

I'm sure I'll get blasted... but this looks clunky.


Imagine my surprise!

Turn it off.

OMG LOL!





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Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to NeverMan)
Post #: 11
RE: AAR Mode - 8/7/2009 2:32:53 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dancing Bear

Actually I think with a tuned down colour, a thinner arrow, and perhaps an archaic type arrow, it would look pretty good. (What type of arrow would someone have drawn in the 18th Century, is anyone here a history major and can provide an example?). Like Eske says, this is a prototype. I’m all for the idea, so let’s get it out and improve it as we go.

For the future, Marshall, does the map work on Cartesian (X and Y) coordinates? Because if so, you could program the 3 separate arrows to appear a single curve passing through the point you have selected for each territory. This would generate a single smooth curve, which is more or less unique for each route, instead of three separate straight arrows (you might add dots where the curve passes through each territory, and save the arrow head for the end). This would make the map look like a map I imagine you might see in a WW1 general’s headquarters. Somebody on this site must be able to give you the formula for a parabola passing through one to three points.



Agreed DB!
Funny! I have been looking at arrow formulas/funtions for a while so if anybody has any leads in this area I am interested. These are straight and do not look the time. They are manually drawn with some use of sin/cos functions (clunky sin/cos functions ;-) ) and could use some curves!





_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to Dancing Bear)
Post #: 12
RE: AAR Mode - 8/7/2009 2:38:11 PM   
Dancing Bear

 

Posts: 1003
Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline 		So, is the map set up with X and Y coordinates? We'll need to know to find a formula.

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Post #: 13
RE: AAR Mode - 8/7/2009 3:40:19 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		XY is Correct!




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Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to Dancing Bear)
Post #: 14
RE: AAR Mode - 8/7/2009 4:12:47 PM   
obsidiandrag


Posts: 181
Joined: 3/22/2008
From: Massachusetts, USA
Status: offline 		I would think something like the first version of the PC Axis and Allies arrows.. they would go from area to area while you held the unit (or undid each individual movement) and on completion of the movement would make a smooth line through all areas encountered with the arrow on the end..

On another note.. would that make the "Undue" command for movement better if it could undue one space at a time?? I have had several disagreements with the game over movements that could not be undone due to something that was done on the first or second movement but cant undue the third position location.

ie.. move - drop garrison - move 2 more times.. you can not undue to change where your final move is as soon as you dropped that garrison any moves stuck.

Sorry for the sidetrack (ADHD and all) but the undue on Axis and Allies brought that to mind.

OD

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 15
RE: AAR Mode - 8/7/2009 7:43:07 PM   
NeverMan

 

Posts: 1722
Joined: 2/24/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

XY is Correct!





It's just hard to which space that first arrow is in, it kind of points to the line between the two spaces.

Also, your little sample looks fine; however, now take that and do this with the movement of war all over the prussian/french borderlands and see how fast you get lost.

I apologize if I don't just shut up and say "Oh, what a great job, looks great, I'm happy with anything you guys do" but I think that's what got us to where we are now in the first place.

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 16
RE: AAR Mode - 8/10/2009 2:05:25 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		Oh Neverman! Don't apologize. I have come to expect most of what you say BUT that does not mean that I ignore it or even disagree with all of it. You have good ideas. You just tend to deliver them differently :-) I make attempts to respond to the community with code that I hope fits the bill but I have no illusions that it does in all cases.

BTW: To prevent the getting lost portion, I am allowing a few different options in the AAR mode:

1. Only see units from your nation
2. Only see the selected unit's path.
3. Only see the units' paths from the selected unit's nation.
4. See all

Make sense?



< Message edited by Marshall Ellis -- 8/10/2009 2:07:03 PM >

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Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to NeverMan)
Post #: 17
RE: AAR Mode - 8/10/2009 2:22:35 PM   
NeverMan

 

Posts: 1722
Joined: 2/24/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Oh Neverman! Don't apologize. I have come to expect most of what you say BUT that does not mean that I ignore it or even disagree with all of it. You have good ideas. You just tend to deliver them differently :-) I make attempts to respond to the community with code that I hope fits the bill but I have no illusions that it does in all cases.

BTW: To prevent the getting lost portion, I am allowing a few different options in the AAR mode:

1. Only see units from your nation
2. Only see the selected unit's path.
3. Only see the units' paths from the selected unit's nation.
4. See all

Make sense?




Yes, but I still think this is too clunky looking (it looks like bad 80s graphics) for the "see all" option. Make sense?

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 18
RE: AAR Mode - 8/10/2009 2:55:21 PM   
Odysseus

 

Posts: 91
Joined: 11/21/2007
Status: offline 		Sweet feature! I'm very likely to use it, IF it is intuitve and easily applied. The IF is because I just don't have the time I used to have before my baby daughter was born...

But it would also be sweet if more people started fleshing out their AARs abit more. That forum is pretty dead these days, I'm sorry to say. So many games I'm curious about what happened...

(in reply to NeverMan)
Post #: 19
RE: AAR Mode - 8/10/2009 3:15:45 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Oh Neverman! Don't apologize. I have come to expect most of what you say BUT that does not mean that I ignore it or even disagree with all of it. You have good ideas. You just tend to deliver them differently :-) I make attempts to respond to the community with code that I hope fits the bill but I have no illusions that it does in all cases.

BTW: To prevent the getting lost portion, I am allowing a few different options in the AAR mode:

1. Only see units from your nation
2. Only see the selected unit's path.
3. Only see the units' paths from the selected unit's nation.
4. See all

Make sense?




Yes, but I still think this is too clunky looking (it looks like bad 80s graphics) for the "see all" option. Make sense?



I'm playing with it a bit to see what works best. They look better without going through the screen paint JPEG conversion but they are manually drawn arrows. I need to find an arrow drawing tool kit to make it look the time (Lines simply weren't that straight in the 19th century). I see what you're saying though. If there are a ton of moves then it could become a bit confusing in the ALL mode but I haven't seen that yet. It's a a start. I believe Jimmer had this idea a while ago???




_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to NeverMan)
Post #: 20
RE: AAR Mode - 8/11/2009 2:01:20 AM   
Dancing Bear

 

Posts: 1003
Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline 		It was either Jimmer or myself,b ut doesn't really matter. It would be a good feature. Has anyone found the equation for making a curved line through three points yet? Am I going to have to pull out a text book?

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 21
RE: AAR Mode - 8/11/2009 4:28:35 AM   
NeverMan

 

Posts: 1722
Joined: 2/24/2004
Status: offline 		A curve through three points is VERY VERY VERY VERY BASIC OpenGL stuff... this should NOT be difficult (I don't know a thing about DirectX so I can't speak for that if that's what Marshall/Matrix has used).

(in reply to Dancing Bear)
Post #: 22
RE: AAR Mode - 8/11/2009 9:39:52 AM   
gazfun


Posts: 1046
Joined: 7/1/2004
From: Australia
Status: offline 		I think the concept is good and is succesfull in providing the AAR you mentioned

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Post #: 23
RE: AAR Mode - 8/11/2009 1:24:53 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

A curve through three points is VERY VERY VERY VERY BASIC OpenGL stuff... this should NOT be difficult (I don't know a thing about DirectX so I can't speak for that if that's what Marshall/Matrix has used).


It's not really the curve that is difficult but the curve may have to go through 6 points in ANY direction and you need to know the final direction in degrees in order to draw the head. Arrows by themselves are simply 7 point polygons BUT you must know how to point them!

_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to NeverMan)
Post #: 24
RE: AAR Mode - 8/11/2009 2:58:21 PM   
Edfactor


Posts: 106
Joined: 6/13/2008
From: Dallas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dancing Bear

Actually I think with a tuned down colour, a thinner arrow, and perhaps an archaic type arrow, it would look pretty good. (What type of arrow would someone have drawn in the 18th Century, is anyone here a history major and can provide an example?). Like Eske says, this is a prototype. I’m all for the idea, so let’s get it out and improve it as we go.

For the future, Marshall, does the map work on Cartesian (X and Y) coordinates? Because if so, you could program the 3 separate arrows to appear a single curve passing through the point you have selected for each territory. This would generate a single smooth curve, which is more or less unique for each route, instead of three separate straight arrows (you might add dots where the curve passes through each territory, and save the arrow head for the end). This would make the map look like a map I imagine you might see in a WW1 general’s headquarters. Somebody on this site must be able to give you the formula for a parabola passing through one to three points.




I don't think they had arrows back then, just straight lines. I believe arrows were invented by John Q. Mapmaker in 1874

(in reply to Dancing Bear)
Post #: 25
RE: AAR Mode - 8/11/2009 6:53:25 PM   
Jimmer

 

Posts: 1968
Joined: 12/5/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis
I'm playing with it a bit to see what works best. They look better without going through the screen paint JPEG conversion but they are manually drawn arrows. I need to find an arrow drawing tool kit to make it look the time (Lines simply weren't that straight in the 19th century). I see what you're saying though. If there are a ton of moves then it could become a bit confusing in the ALL mode but I haven't seen that yet. It's a a start. I believe Jimmer had this idea a while ago???

I don't recall having it, but now that it's on the table:

The curves can go from one space to the next only, with a new arrow starting up at each node. It would have much the same effect as a continuous arrow, but still be segmented.

NOTE: It doesn't bother me at all to have straight arrows. However, I would start and end them in the "middle" of the area, not from the hotspot for the corps counters. Perhaps have the start and end spaces be the position of the forage value number?

Also, I would have them be translucent, not opaque (or, allow the option). They could overlap with a corps at some point (for example, if the corps in question moved NE instead of SE in your example picture), and you would want the ability to still get to the corps and see them.

_____________________________

At LAST! The greatest campaign board game of all time is finally available for the PC. Can my old heart stand the strain?

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 26
RE: AAR Mode - 8/11/2009 8:10:02 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		Sorry about accusing you of that idea :-) I swore it was you??? So then who was it? DB?




_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to Jimmer)
Post #: 27
RE: AAR Mode - 8/11/2009 8:55:18 PM   
Jimmer

 

Posts: 1968
Joined: 12/5/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Sorry about accusing you of that idea :-) I swore it was you??? So then who was it? DB?




Oh, I just said I didn't recall it. It could have been me, but I don't remember.

They say memory is the second thing to go.

_____________________________

At LAST! The greatest campaign board game of all time is finally available for the PC. Can my old heart stand the strain?

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 28
RE: AAR Mode - 8/11/2009 9:40:57 PM   
obsidiandrag


Posts: 181
Joined: 3/22/2008
From: Massachusetts, USA
Status: offline 		we forget whats first...

(in reply to Jimmer)
Post #: 29
RE: AAR Mode - 8/12/2009 12:23:30 AM   
Dancing Bear

 

Posts: 1003
Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline 		It was my fault.

I really liked the AAR image on the other thread (well maybe not the searing colours, but the straight lines looked ok)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Sorry about accusing you of that idea :-) I swore it was you??? So then who was it? DB?






< Message edited by Dancing Bear -- 8/12/2009 12:26:54 AM >

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 30
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