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Petition: Stop Fog-of-War for friendly units when playing vs AI

 
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Petition: Stop Fog-of-War for friendly units when playi... - 8/10/2009 4:41:33 PM   
fbs

 

Posts: 1048
Joined: 12/25/2008
Status: offline 		Say your aye or nay.

Captains report their ships as being sunk when they weren't, squadron leaders report no losses when they lost half a squadron, and commanders just forget to inform that their ships were attacked and are now damaged.

That's fogging combat results for your own units -- it is unrealistic, and is a major bugger to playing the game. It makes combat reports unreliable, so you have to double-check your units after every fight, and also to search around every turn for units that forgot to report they were hit. Manual work and double accounting, all this inherited from WITP.

There is no way to work around that for PBEM games, but combat results for your own units should not be fogged when playing against the AI - the commanders should know what happened to them, if only by walking to the hangars and counting how many places were shot down.

So we petition; cheers!
fbs

< Message edited by fbs -- 8/11/2009 12:39:04 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Petition: Stop Fog-of-War for friendly units when p... - 8/10/2009 5:05:35 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline 		USS Indianapolis


But seriously what your reporting may be an issue. Do you have a specific Save from just before one of these events so the programmers can possibly track it to see if it is WAD?

_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to fbs)
Post #: 2
RE: Petition: Stop Fog-of-War for friendly units when p... - 8/10/2009 5:07:57 PM   
mariandavid

 

Posts: 297
Joined: 5/22/2008
Status: offline 		I fear that I like the present system - it shakes me from the feeling of omnipotent knowledge which no admiral or general of the time ever had. Also from my experience in the military, no superior ever assumes that his subordinates reports are 100% correct - especially when he lost!!

(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 3
RE: Petition: Stop Fog-of-War for friendly units when p... - 8/10/2009 5:49:33 PM   
DrewMatrix


Posts: 1429
Joined: 7/15/2004
Status: offline 		I certainly think there should be FOW for your own side. Subs didn't pop up to say the survived a D/C attack. They either returned or were listed as "overdue and presumed lost." Land battles were worse. You should have to fight for air superiority so you can fly recon over the battlefield _after_ the battle to see who is advancing/holding/retreating. These battles were confusing and the participants may not have known if they won or lost.




_____________________________


Beezle - Rapidly running out of altitude, airspeed and ideas.

(in reply to mariandavid)
Post #: 4
RE: Petition: Stop Fog-of-War for friendly units when p... - 8/10/2009 6:19:11 PM   
CV Zuikaku

 

Posts: 442
Joined: 12/18/2008
From: Legrad, Croatia
Status: offline 		FOW for enemy units/ships/planes -YES
FOW for friendly units/ships/planes -NO

Checking just every squadron, ship and task force each turn is too much time consuming and is killing the game. seriously it's tiring me too much. We shoul'd know if Kaga was hit or sunk or Akagi after the end of turn. After all, supreme commanders did get those reports the next day, and the next day is after the end of the turn. Yes, FOW is good in the confusion of battle, but we should be able to know if some transport in Coral sea was hit by patrol plane and need some attention. We should also know which ship in TF sunk. If you really want total FOW, then we must not know even where are the ships which are maintaining radio silence. If we send conoy from Nauru to Sydney, we must not know it's position from moment it departs Nauru. We only have to know when it arrives in Sydney- if it doesn't arrive then it is lost. Do you want to play like that????

(in reply to DrewMatrix)
Post #: 5
RE: Petition: Stop Fog-of-War for friendly units when p... - 8/10/2009 6:27:05 PM   
DrewMatrix


Posts: 1429
Joined: 7/15/2004
Status: offline
quote:

If we send conoy from Nauru to Sydney, we must not know it's position from moment it departs Nauru. We only have to know when it arrives in Sydney- if it doesn't arrive then it is lost. Do you want to play like that????


For subs, yes I do.

Subs are not really under control and don't report daily. If out of torps they will retrun as part of the Sub Patrol routine as I understand it.



_____________________________


Beezle - Rapidly running out of altitude, airspeed and ideas.

(in reply to CV Zuikaku)
Post #: 6
RE: Petition: Stop Fog-of-War for friendly units when p... - 8/10/2009 6:29:29 PM   
moose1999

 

Posts: 788
Joined: 10/26/2006
Status: offline 		FOW for losses to friendly air units seems silly to me.
A plane either returns from a mission or it doesn't.
FOW for losses to enemy units of any kind and some FOW regarding friendly shipping losses is fine, of course.


_____________________________

regards,

Briny

(in reply to CV Zuikaku)
Post #: 7
RE: Petition: Stop Fog-of-War for friendly units when p... - 8/10/2009 6:31:57 PM   
CV Zuikaku

 

Posts: 442
Joined: 12/18/2008
From: Legrad, Croatia
Status: offline 		It is not problem in the subs. I allways check any sub that has been under attack. Problem is in the merchants- they got hit by patrol planes and we don't get any message. Problem is when your TF commander sends wrong reports about his own ships hit and sunk- that is the major problem. Let me know if Tonan maru is hit by Do-24 so I can try to save her- not just to got message after 3 turns "Tonan maru have sunk". By what? By who? How? Alliens?

(in reply to DrewMatrix)
Post #: 8
RE: Petition: Stop Fog-of-War for friendly units when p... - 8/10/2009 6:58:25 PM   
DrewMatrix


Posts: 1429
Joined: 7/15/2004
Status: offline 		If there is a combat, or if a patrol plane hits something there is a message at present in the txt files generated for the turn.

Combat Reports.txt I think. So if you check that each turn (easier than trying to catch the scrolling messages) you will be told your xAK was hit by a patrol plane at present. I have no idea if, with FOW on, the messages about your own ships are incomplete/innacurate. I assume messages about enemy ships being hit by search planes are overly optimistic.





_____________________________


Beezle - Rapidly running out of altitude, airspeed and ideas.

(in reply to CV Zuikaku)
Post #: 9
RE: Petition: Stop Fog-of-War for friendly units when p... - 8/10/2009 7:10:19 PM   
Puhis


Posts: 1737
Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline 		It is certainly annoying to lose ships whitout knowing what hit them and when. I think it's bit funny that high commander knows how many support squads, aircraft engines and macine guns there is (and how many guns is out of order), but don't know when ships are bombed...

This is a game. Player need to now when ships are attacked and damaged.

(in reply to CV Zuikaku)
Post #: 10
RE: Petition: Stop Fog-of-War for friendly units when p... - 8/10/2009 7:12:59 PM   
TheTomDude


Posts: 372
Joined: 3/3/2006
From: Switzerland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Beezle

If there is a combat, or if a patrol plane hits something there is a message at present in the txt files generated for the turn.

Combat Reports.txt I think. So if you check that each turn (easier than trying to catch the scrolling messages) you will be told your xAK was hit by a patrol plane at present. I have no idea if, with FOW on, the messages about your own ships are incomplete/innacurate. I assume messages about enemy ships being hit by search planes are overly optimistic.



I think if there is a combat somewhere, no matter what kind of (bomber, partol plane whatever), there should be a combat report pup-up box as it is for every other combat.

(in reply to DrewMatrix)
Post #: 11
RE: Petition: Stop Fog-of-War for friendly units when p... - 8/10/2009 7:17:57 PM   
Puhis


Posts: 1737
Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Beezle

If there is a combat, or if a patrol plane hits something there is a message at present in the txt files generated for the turn.

Combat Reports.txt I think. So if you check that each turn (easier than trying to catch the scrolling messages) you will be told your xAK was hit by a patrol plane at present. I have no idea if, with FOW on, the messages about your own ships are incomplete/innacurate. I assume messages about enemy ships being hit by search planes are overly optimistic.



The problem is that there is nothing in the text files. Not in the combat report, not in the combat events, not in the operational reports. I have checked those so many times... But ships are bombed, damaged and sunk...

(in reply to DrewMatrix)
Post #: 12
RE: Petition: Stop Fog-of-War for friendly units when p... - 8/10/2009 7:18:33 PM   
fbs

 

Posts: 1048
Joined: 12/25/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

USS Indianapolis


But seriously what your reporting may be an issue. Do you have a specific Save from just before one of these events so the programmers can possibly track it to see if it is WAD?


I have a combat report with the problem. These are the only events to what happened to my poor Condor:

---------- AOPERATIONSREPORT_411207.TXT
AMc Condor has spotted a Japanese Float Fighter at 180,107
AMc Condor has spotted a Japanese Fighter at 180,107

---------- COMBAT_EVENTS_411207.TXT
AMc Condor has spotted a Japanese Float Fighter at 180,107
AMc Condor has spotted a Japanese Fighter at 180,107
AMc Condor sinks....

It wasn't reported involved in any combat and suddenly sunk. Other ships are just damaged and you don't know. And of course combat reports for air units are consistently unreliable: these are the only combat reports with Hudson I losses for today:

combat #1:
Japanese aircraft
G3M2 Nell x 42

Allied aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
G3M2 Nell: 3 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Blenheim I: 1 destroyed on ground
Hudson I: 1 destroyed on ground

combat #2:
Japanese aircraft
Ki-27b Nate x 23
Ki-43-Ia Oscar x 8

Allied aircraft
Blenheim I x 3
Blenheim IV x 6
Hudson I x 6

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
Blenheim I: 1 damaged
Blenheim IV: 4 damaged
Hudson I: 3 destroyed


So the combat report lists 4 Hudson I destroyed. But when I look in the Intelligence Reports it shows 17 Hudson I destroyed air-to-air, 1 by flak and 2 on the ground today! So what good are the combat reports to help me find what happened to my units? For the first combat it's clear the squadron commander doesn't know how to count: he counted 1 a/c destroyed when in fact it was 2. As for the other 14 lost aircrafts that are not in the report, I have to assume that the squadron commander for combat #2 doesn't know how to count either, and something between 0 and 6 a/c were lost, so I have to find, by checking unit by unit, between 18 and 12 Hudson I that were shot down in combats not listed in the combat report. Or perhaps I have to assume that the intelligence report is wrong too, and in fact I had 5 Hudson I shot down this day instead of 18.

You see my trouble: I have to check around all units that fly Hudson I to find out which ones lost aircrafts, and how many.

Cheers
fbs




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by fbs -- 8/10/2009 7:24:18 PM >

(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 13
RE: Petition: Stop Fog-of-War for friendly units when p... - 8/10/2009 7:21:36 PM   
mjk428

 

Posts: 1944
Joined: 6/15/2002
From: Western USA
Status: offline 		I have to agree.

I found AO Neosho burning in Lahaina and the only indication it had been attacked was an "aircraft sighted" in the ops report. Which didn't get my attention since there were quite a few of those entries reported on 12/8/41.

The first thing I do each new turn is open the ship list and sort on sys damage. It's great that I can do that but it would be nice to know what caused the damage in some way other than "Sunk By". If it's a sub then I'm sorta OK with not knowing but a ship in a friendly port needs to give me more info.

_____________________________


(in reply to TheTomDude)
Post #: 14
RE: Petition: Stop Fog-of-War for friendly units when p... - 8/10/2009 7:35:05 PM   
Iridium


Posts: 932
Joined: 4/1/2005
From: Jersey
Status: offline 		Sounds like a goof in the reports simply not stating:

---------- AOPERATIONSREPORT_411207.TXT
AMc Condor has spotted a Japanese Float Fighter at 180,107
AMc Condor has spotted a Japanese Fighter at 180,107
AMc Condor has been attacked by a Japanese Float Fighter at 180,107
AMc Condor has been attacked by a Japanese Fighter at 180,107

Whether or not these are true are still subject to FOW if I had my way (maybe a med bomber was mis-ID'd as a float plane etc) but at least you'd have an inkling as to why your ship might be sunk or damaged.

Also, this makes me wonder if AE has increased the amount of aircraft attacking targets of opportunity while on recon, CAP, etc.

< Message edited by Iridium -- 8/10/2009 7:36:40 PM >

_____________________________

Yamato, IMO the best looking Battleship.

"Hey, a packet of googly eyes! I'm so taking these." Hank Venture

(in reply to mjk428)
Post #: 15
RE: Petition: Stop Fog-of-War for friendly units when p... - 8/10/2009 8:06:33 PM   
mjk428

 

Posts: 1944
Joined: 6/15/2002
From: Western USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Iridium

Sounds like a goof in the reports simply not stating:

---------- AOPERATIONSREPORT_411207.TXT
AMc Condor has spotted a Japanese Float Fighter at 180,107
AMc Condor has spotted a Japanese Fighter at 180,107
AMc Condor has been attacked by a Japanese Float Fighter at 180,107
AMc Condor has been attacked by a Japanese Fighter at 180,107

Whether or not these are true are still subject to FOW if I had my way (maybe a med bomber was mis-ID'd as a float plane etc) but at least you'd have an inkling as to why your ship might be sunk or damaged.

Also, this makes me wonder if AE has increased the amount of aircraft attacking targets of opportunity while on recon, CAP, etc.


That would be adequate.

Until poor Neosho gave up the ghost, I had assumed it was midget sub, rather than a magic 60kg bomb, that was the culprit.

There is at least one Val pilot in my game that is very good at attacking targets of opportunity. Assuming he survived the day.

Now if only the hundreds of pilots I've got on ASW duty could be 1/100th as good. They've yet to even try to attack a spotted sub - at least according to the reports. Maybe they are attacking and I've been cursing them unfairly. :)

_____________________________


(in reply to Iridium)
Post #: 16
RE: Petition: Stop Fog-of-War for friendly units when p... - 8/10/2009 8:11:38 PM   
CV Zuikaku

 

Posts: 442
Joined: 12/18/2008
From: Legrad, Croatia
Status: offline 		Anyone tried to switch FOW off? Do we thatway get report there that "AO Neosho has been hit" or not? I intended to play with FOW on, but it forces me to do manual check of every TF I have ,every turn- and it is driving me nuts. and ship list is not of much use if you have 20+ damaged ships- can not track every single ship in my head...

(in reply to mjk428)
Post #: 17
RE: Petition: Stop Fog-of-War for friendly units when p... - 8/10/2009 9:03:58 PM   
fbs

 

Posts: 1048
Joined: 12/25/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CV Zuikaku

Anyone tried to switch FOW off? Do we thatway get report there that "AO Neosho has been hit" or not? I intended to play with FOW on, but it forces me to do manual check of every TF I have ,every turn- and it is driving me nuts. and ship list is not of much use if you have 20+ damaged ships- can not track every single ship in my head...



You don't want FOW off... you can see every single enemy unit in the map, including all submarines and task forces. Takes away all the fun.

Cheers
fbs

(in reply to CV Zuikaku)
Post #: 18
RE: Petition: Stop Fog-of-War for friendly units when p... - 8/10/2009 9:51:03 PM   
rockmedic109

 

Posts: 2390
Joined: 5/17/2005
From: Citrus Heights, CA
Status: offline 		I always liked the idea of a limited FOW {Eliminate seeing all units}.

(in reply to fbs)
Post #: 19
RE: Petition: Stop Fog-of-War for friendly units when p... - 8/10/2009 9:54:27 PM   
Admiral Scott


Posts: 625
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Syracuse, NY USA
Status: offline 		I totally agree with you FBS, this needs fixing in a patch.

< Message edited by Admiral Scott -- 8/10/2009 9:55:54 PM >

(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 20
RE: Petition: Stop Fog-of-War for friendly units when p... - 8/10/2009 10:02:44 PM   
CV Zuikaku

 

Posts: 442
Joined: 12/18/2008
From: Legrad, Croatia
Status: offline 		So, will it be fixed?

(in reply to Admiral Scott)
Post #: 21
RE: Petition: Stop Fog-of-War for friendly units when p... - 8/10/2009 10:07:54 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		There is an issue here. If some AK suffers a bomb hit but survives the intitial report may be confused while the vessel is under attack but the ship's captain may well feel the need to report later if he elects to vary from his assigned orders...or another vessel in his convoy may report. This would be sepecially true after the ship's postion is already known to the enemy.

Even if there is no report to the CNO for every little scratch the commander on the scene may elect to divert to Canton instead of heading all the way back to San Fran, for eg.

Friendly air losses will be known with certainty once the squadron returns so it seems to me freindly air losses should be accurate.

< Message edited by Cap Mandrake -- 8/10/2009 10:09:26 PM >

(in reply to fbs)
Post #: 22
RE: Petition: Stop Fog-of-War for friendly units when p... - 8/10/2009 10:30:33 PM   
newoldposter

 

Posts: 68
Joined: 8/4/2009
From: Yankee on the Island of Man
Status: offline 		Fog of war..exactly that..there is always fuzz with your own troops..ships and planes.

(in reply to fbs)
Post #: 23
RE: Petition: Stop Fog-of-War for friendly units when p... - 8/10/2009 10:50:22 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: newoldposter

Fog of war..exactly that..there is always fuzz with your own troops..ships and planes.


Of course...but the player isn't merely playing the role of Nimitz sittting in his office at Pearl. He also has to step up to play the role of TF commander or base air boss and set up CAP for Port Moresby the next day. The commander at Port Moresby will know exactly how many operational P-39's he has available at the end of the day.

The player can find that information by viewing the screen for Port Moresby or by pulling up the TF screen but I think the original poster has a valid pt. about being alerted to do that by the combat report. In fairness, this was also an issue to some extent in WITP (for eg., finding a sub damaged by a search plane). My recollection is it was possible for a vessel to suffer damage not included in the combat report.

(in reply to newoldposter)
Post #: 24
RE: Petition: Stop Fog-of-War for friendly units when p... - 8/10/2009 10:51:57 PM   
newoldposter

 

Posts: 68
Joined: 8/4/2009
From: Yankee on the Island of Man
Status: offline 		what is the real impact here?

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 25
RE: Petition: Stop Fog-of-War for friendly units when p... - 8/10/2009 11:00:37 PM   
Tazo


Posts: 85
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Toulouse, France
Status: offline 		 
It seems to me that since the game allows the player to look at EACH unit on the map and see its TRUE state/status (and even give instantaneous command)
he can deduce which damages were taken from the previous actions and THEN a good aid of play SHOULD help him doing that rapidely !

An ON / OFF DAMAGE REPÖRT could be added to let every body decide this level of friendly-FOW.

My suggestion in case of ON is to improve and/or reorganaze the already useful OPS report by adding lines like the following ones, summing up hits endured
by units in the just executed turn :

"XXX merchand ship (severly) was hit by a torpedoe at hex HHHH"
"CA XXX was hit by 5 bombs and 2 torpedoes and was sunk at hex HHHH"
(...then next hurted boats indexed by hexes).

"XXX squadron on YYY airfield suffered 2 kills, 6 damaged and claims 1 kill"  (the true data this time, but summing operational losses, several air to air combats, straffing)
"Pilot ZZZ is credited with kill number 3"  (already done but listed here for the right squadron, to help the reader)
"Ace AAA is promoted to the rank RRR"  (again a guy from this brilliant squadron, a good role playing touch here I appreciate)
"A/C of pilot PPP did crash in landing"  (again the oerational losses from the above squadron)
(...then next squadron damage/credits report and its credited guys and operational losses...)

A very instructive synthetic report on air / naval units like this would be applaude I guess. Otherwize ignore it and don't open the OPS or turn the new button OFF.

I point out that the OPS report already contain important intelligence on the enemy like "BB xxxx is reported to have been sunk the 15 of august at hex HHHH"
and thus is checked every turn in principle, and is very easy to read since very synthetic and chronologic. The last part could be this "overall damage report"
which may avoid players flying from "hot airfield" to "hot airfield" look at the hurted units by himself... and would help him reminding the various combat reports
by feeling at that final stage the cumulative effect of events on each unit. Then finish the cup of cofee and ready to go for a new turn with all the essentials
top of the head!

TZ

_____________________________

There is only two kinds of operational plans, good ones and bad ones.
The good ones almost always fail under unexpected circumstances that often make the bad ones succeed.
-- Napoléon.

With AE immortality is no more a curse.
-- A lucky man.

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 26
RE: Petition: Stop Fog-of-War for friendly units when p... - 8/10/2009 11:05:37 PM   
pad152

 

Posts: 2871
Joined: 4/23/2000
Status: offline 		There is a reason, it's called fog of war!

Gemany - During the Battle of Britian, pilots reported kills totaling 3 X the number of aircraft the Brits had!

Viet Nam - The daily enemy kills reported when added up exceded the total population of North Viet Nam X 5.




(in reply to newoldposter)
Post #: 27
RE: Petition: Stop Fog-of-War for friendly units when p... - 8/10/2009 11:27:26 PM   
fbs

 

Posts: 1048
Joined: 12/25/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152

There is a reason, it's called fog of war!

Gemany - During the Battle of Britian, pilots reported kills totaling 3 X the number of aircraft the Brits had!

Viet Nam - The daily enemy kills reported when added up exceded the total population of North Viet Nam X 5.



Right, but the issue is not about fog of war for losses on the enemy.

The problem is that your own losses are also fogged. If the combat report says that you lost 4 aircrafts in air combat, when you in fact lost 18 aircrafts, then the combat report just doesn't make sense. The commander of the squadron that lost 18 aircrafts will know by end of day how many aircrafts didn't come back and will report 18 lost. If he reports 4 lost, it just means he can't count...

Thanks
fbs


(in reply to pad152)
Post #: 28
RE: Petition: Stop Fog-of-War for friendly units when p... - 8/10/2009 11:27:31 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152

There is a reason, it's called fog of war!

Gemany - During the Battle of Britian, pilots reported kills totaling 3 X the number of aircraft the Brits had!

Viet Nam - The daily enemy kills reported when added up exceded the total population of North Viet Nam X 5.






Yes, of course, but we are talking about friendly loss reports collated after the heat of the battle.

What we are really talking about is a playability aid for the management of air groups and ships with losses for that day of battle. Already WITP staff does this for some items (like search quadrants for eg.). I am pretty sure Adm King did not have a real time map of the world with a search arc for every Allied squadron in the Pacific and Indian Ocean in his office.



(in reply to pad152)
Post #: 29
RE: Petition: Stop Fog-of-War for friendly units when p... - 8/10/2009 11:38:54 PM   
Tazo


Posts: 85
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Toulouse, France
Status: offline 		Yes pad, I agree. By "true data" for kills I meant "official data" taken into account by the hierarchy so they can be FOWed of course.
This is just the ones that are added in the screen of air units "total kills" on the pilot list. I don't know if they are true but at least
"army official" in the game. I would prefer them to be FOWed of course, but still they can be reality if the (old button) FOW is OFF
(newbies or testers may be concerned!). When chosen FOWed at least summing them up in a report gives an upper bound to the
truth... and medals to our pilots!

The key "true data" in my suggestion is the part concerning destroyed/damaged A/C of each air unit, these ones could be either
NOT FOWed or FOWed depending on the ON / OFF (new) button chosen by the player. That's it, everybody can choose and the
"damage report/summary" is only an "aid of play" included in the OPS, opened or ignored. The same with boats, the bombs/torp can
be real or FOW according to the same button ON / OFF.



_____________________________

There is only two kinds of operational plans, good ones and bad ones.
The good ones almost always fail under unexpected circumstances that often make the bad ones succeed.
-- Napoléon.

With AE immortality is no more a curse.
-- A lucky man.

(in reply to pad152)
Post #: 30
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