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Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/14/2009 2:01:02 PM   
Icedawg


Posts: 1610
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: Upstate New York
Status: offline 		I've read descriptions of completely unbalanced surface combats, but didn't give it much thought - until this happened in my very first surface combat I've experienced in AE.

No ships were damaged prior to combat - just two groups of 100% combat ready ships and the superior force is completely sunk down to the very last ship (the two heavily damaged DD's sank the next day) while the outgunned force is barely scratched.

Please say that this will be addressed in the upcoming patch.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Dec 08, 41
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Singapore at 50,84, Range 12,000 Yards

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
No Japanese losses

Japanese Ships
BB Kongo, Shell hits 28, and is sunk
BB Haruna, Shell hits 26, and is sunk
CA Takao, Shell hits 13, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
CA Atago, Shell hits 17, and is sunk
CL Jintsu, Shell hits 9, and is sunk
DD Asashio, Shell hits 4, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Oshio, Shell hits 6, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Michishio, Shell hits 17, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Arashio, Shell hits 4, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
DD Akatsuki, Shell hits 18, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Hibiki, Shell hits 5, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

Allied Ships
BB Prince of Wales, Shell hits 5, on fire
BC Repulse, Shell hits 6, Torpedo hits 1
DD Vampire
DD Tenedos
DD Electra
DD Express, Shell hits 1



Improved night sighting under 85% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions and 85% moonlight: 12,000 yards
Range closes to 24,000 yards...
Range closes to 18,000 yards...
Range closes to 12,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 12,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 12,000 yards
Phillips, Tom S.V. crosses the 'T'
BB Haruna engages BB Prince of Wales at 12,000 yards
BC Repulse engages BB Kongo at 12,000 yards
BB Haruna engages DD Express at 12,000 yards
CA Takao engages DD Electra at 12,000 yards
DD Hibiki engages DD Express at 12,000 yards
DD Arashio engages DD Electra at 12,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Express at 12,000 yards
DD Express engages DD Oshio at 12,000 yards
DD Electra engages DD Asashio at 12,000 yards
Range closes to 8,000 yards
BB Haruna engages BB Prince of Wales at 8,000 yards
BB Kongo engages BC Repulse at 8,000 yards
CA Atago engages DD Express at 8,000 yards
DD Hibiki engages DD Electra at 8,000 yards
CL Jintsu engages BC Repulse at 8,000 yards
DD Express engages DD Hibiki at 8,000 yards
DD Akatsuki engages DD Express at 8,000 yards
DD Arashio engages DD Express at 8,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Electra at 8,000 yards
DD Express engages DD Oshio at 8,000 yards
DD Asashio engages DD Electra at 8,000 yards
Murakami L. orders Japanese TF to disengage
Range closes to 6,000 yards
BB Prince of Wales engages BB Haruna at 6,000 yards
CA Atago engages BC Repulse at 6,000 yards
BC Repulse engages CA Takao at 6,000 yards
CL Jintsu engages BC Repulse at 6,000 yards
DD Hibiki engages DD Vampire at 6,000 yards
DD Akatsuki engages DD Vampire at 6,000 yards
DD Express engages DD Arashio at 6,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Vampire at 6,000 yards
DD Asashio engages DD Vampire at 6,000 yards
Range closes to 5,000 yards
BB Prince of Wales engages BB Haruna at 5,000 yards
BB Haruna engages BC Repulse at 5,000 yards
BC Repulse engages CA Atago at 5,000 yards
DD Asashio sunk by DD Electra at 5,000 yards
BC Repulse engages CL Jintsu at 5,000 yards
DD Express engages DD Hibiki at 5,000 yards
DD Akatsuki engages DD Express at 5,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Express at 5,000 yards
DD Oshio sunk by DD Vampire at 5,000 yards
Range closes to 4,000 yards
BB Kongo engages BC Repulse at 4,000 yards
CA Atago engages DD Vampire at 4,000 yards
CA Takao engages DD Express at 4,000 yards
DD Tenedos engages DD Arashio at 4,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Vampire at 4,000 yards
DD Vampire engages DD Akatsuki at 4,000 yards
DD Arashio sunk by DD Tenedos at 4,000 yards
DD Express engages DD Michishio at 4,000 yards
Range closes to 3,000 yards
BB Haruna engages BC Repulse at 3,000 yards
BB Kongo sunk by BB Prince of Wales at 3,000 yards
DD Hibiki sunk by DD Express at 3,000 yards
CA Takao engages DD Vampire at 3,000 yards
CL Jintsu sunk by BC Repulse at 3,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Vampire at 3,000 yards
DD Electra engages DD Akatsuki at 3,000 yards
Range increases to 4,000 yards
BB Prince of Wales engages BB Haruna at 4,000 yards
BB Haruna engages BC Repulse at 4,000 yards
BC Repulse engages CA Takao at 4,000 yards
DD Akatsuki engages DD Electra at 4,000 yards
DD Tenedos engages DD Michishio at 4,000 yards
DD Vampire engages DD Michishio at 4,000 yards
Range increases to 5,000 yards
BB Haruna engages BB Prince of Wales at 5,000 yards
BB Haruna engages BC Repulse at 5,000 yards
CA Takao engages DD Express at 5,000 yards
DD Akatsuki engages DD Tenedos at 5,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Vampire at 5,000 yards
Range increases to 6,000 yards
BC Repulse engages CA Atago at 6,000 yards
CA Atago sunk by BC Repulse at 6,000 yards
DD Express engages DD Michishio at 6,000 yards
DD Akatsuki engages DD Electra at 6,000 yards
DD Tenedos engages DD Michishio at 6,000 yards
Range increases to 8,000 yards
DD Akatsuki engages DD Tenedos at 8,000 yards
BC Repulse engages DD Michishio at 8,000 yards
DD Akatsuki engages DD Express at 8,000 yards
DD Akatsuki engages DD Electra at 8,000 yards
Range increases to 11,000 yards
DD Vampire engages DD Akatsuki at 11,000 yards
DD Vampire engages DD Akatsuki at 11,000 yards
Task forces break off...


Post #: 1
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/14/2009 2:08:49 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline 		The Brit's crossed the "T". That puts them in the overwhelming strategic position. More than 1/2 of the "overwhelming superior force's guns couldn't fire, and NONE of it's torpedos. Historically , it's a Admirals dream, and after Tushima , every admiral in the world sought to acheive it.

Like most things in life , the answer is "in the fine print"!

(in reply to Icedawg)
Post #: 2
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/14/2009 2:08:55 PM   
Icedawg


Posts: 1610
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: Upstate New York
Status: offline 		And, from John Dillworth's thread, here's another instance of a horribly overmatched force putting a serious hurting on the superior foe.

Did the playtesters not encounter these crazy results? If they did, I don't see why the game wasn't fixed prior to release.

Day Time Surface Combat, near Koggala at 30,52, Range 5,000 Yards

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
No Japanese losses

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga
CV Hiryu, Shell hits 2, on fire
CV Soryu, Shell hits 4
CV Shokaku, Shell hits 29, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
BB Haruna, Shell hits 14, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
BB Kirishima, Shell hits 1
CA Chikuma, Shell hits 9
CA Aoba, Shell hits 5, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
CL Natori, Shell hits 2
CL Tama, Shell hits 17, heavy fires
DD Oyashio, Shell hits 28, and is sunk
DD Maikaze, Shell hits 29, and is sunk
DD Natsugumo, Shell hits 35, and is sunk
DD Arare, Shell hits 17, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Uranami, Shell hits 29, and is sunk
DD Okikaze, Shell hits 5
DD Nokaze, Shell hits 4, on fire
DD Asagao, Shell hits 7, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

Allied Ships
CL Durban, Shell hits 1
CL Caledon, Shell hits 1
CL Capetown, Shell hits 10, heavy fires
CL Colombo, Shell hits 11
DD Tjerk Hiddes
DD Stronghold
DD Decoy
DD Express
DD Fortune, Shell hits 1
DD Griffin
DD Isis, Shell hits 1
DD Jupiter, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Norman
DD Panther, Shell hits 4, on fire

(in reply to Icedawg)
Post #: 3
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/14/2009 2:12:23 PM   
Icedawg


Posts: 1610
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: Upstate New York
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

The Brit's crossed the "T". That puts them in the overwhelming strategic position. More than 1/2 of the "overwhelming superior force's guns couldn't fire, and NONE of it's torpedos. Historically , it's a Admirals dream, and after Tushima , every admiral in the world sought to acheive it.

Like most things in life , the answer is "in the fine print"!


That's true, but the British scored no hits in their initial surprise round. All of the damage came in subsequent rounds.



(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 4
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/14/2009 2:14:11 PM   
herwin

 

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline 		The Japanese advantage in visual search at night was not apparent in this engagement.

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to Icedawg)
Post #: 5
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/14/2009 2:16:44 PM   
Icedawg


Posts: 1610
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: Upstate New York
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

The Japanese advantage in visual search at night was not apparent in this engagement.


Yeah, it looks like they had blind lookouts.

(in reply to herwin)
Post #: 6
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/14/2009 2:18:32 PM   
Zebedee


Posts: 535
Joined: 8/30/2005
Status: offline 		Let's add the pertinent details to that second combat report...

quote:

Low visibility due to Thunderstorms
Maximum visibility in Thunderstorms: 3,000 yards
Range closes to 25,000 yards...
Range closes to 20,000 yards...
Range closes to 15,000 yards...
Range closes to 10,000 yards...
Range closes to 5,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 5,000 yards
Allies open fire on surprised Japanese ships at 5,000 yards
CL Colombo launches Torpedoes at CV Shokaku at 5,000 yards
CL Capetown launches Torpedoes at CA Aoba at 5,000 yards
CL Caledon launches Torpedoes at CA Aoba at 5,000 yards
DD Panther launches Torpedoes at CV Shokaku at 5,000 yards
DD Norman launches Torpedoes at BB Haruna at 5,000 yards
DD Jupiter launches Torpedoes at BB Haruna at 5,000 yards
DD Isis launches Torpedoes at CA Chikuma at 5,000 yards
CL Colombo launches Torpedoes at CL Tama at 5,000 yards
DD Panther fires at DD Asagao at 5,000 yards
DD Stronghold launches Torpedoes at DD Asagao at 5,000 yards
DD Asagao sunk by DD Tjerk Hiddes at 5,000 yards
DD Tjerk Hiddes fires at DD Arare at 5,000 yards
DD Stronghold fires at DD Maikaze at 5,000 yards
DD Isis fires at DD Oyashio at 5,000 yards
Range closes to 2,000 yards


Cruiser led destroyer task force sneaks up on Japanese CV task force through a thunder storm and gets the jump because of radar as the Japanese lookouts can't see them. Allied force leads with a salvo of torpedoes before the Japanese even know they are there. Ouch!



< Message edited by Zebedee -- 8/14/2009 2:19:17 PM >

_____________________________


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Post #: 7
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/14/2009 2:19:35 PM   
EUBanana


Posts: 4552
Joined: 9/30/2003
From: Little England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

The Japanese advantage in visual search at night was not apparent in this engagement.


Yeah, it looks like they had blind lookouts.


Brit ships have high night experience ratings, its only the USN that didn't bother with night fighting.

So, a clash of equals.

Looks to me like the Japs tried to disengage early on but couldn't. In fact the range continued to close. I guess Phillips was commanding in the Nelsonian tradition.

_____________________________


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Post #: 8
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/14/2009 2:23:48 PM   
EUBanana


Posts: 4552
Joined: 9/30/2003
From: Little England
Status: offline 		Gunwise it looks pretty even to me, 2 battleships versus 2 battleships, plus hangers on.

Except PoW was an extremely modern battleship with very heavy armour by RN standards, while Kongo and Haruna are WW1 converted battlecruisers, considered undergunned and underarmoured. POW is twice the size of a Kongo.

So I'd hardly say 'ridiculous'. An outlier to have such a crushing victory, but not ridiculous, no.

_____________________________


(in reply to EUBanana)
Post #: 9
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/14/2009 2:28:13 PM   
jjax


Posts: 289
Joined: 2/24/2005
Status: offline 		I agree that surface combat needs a bit of balancing.

But I think a lot of people are just looking at the number of ships and ship types and thinking that they should have won the battle.

Obviously, AE takes a lot of other factors into consideration. At the very least, now the combat reports are actually useful . In many ways, I think that how surface combat should be.


_____________________________

--JJAX


(in reply to EUBanana)
Post #: 10
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/14/2009 2:28:17 PM   
EUBanana


Posts: 4552
Joined: 9/30/2003
From: Little England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg
Day Time Surface Combat, near Koggala at 30,52, Range 5,000 Yards

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
No Japanese losses

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga
CV Hiryu, Shell hits 2, on fire
CV Soryu, Shell hits 4
CV Shokaku, Shell hits 29, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
BB Haruna, Shell hits 14, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
BB Kirishima, Shell hits 1
CA Chikuma, Shell hits 9
CA Aoba, Shell hits 5, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
CL Natori, Shell hits 2
CL Tama, Shell hits 17, heavy fires
DD Oyashio, Shell hits 28, and is sunk
DD Maikaze, Shell hits 29, and is sunk
DD Natsugumo, Shell hits 35, and is sunk
DD Arare, Shell hits 17, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Uranami, Shell hits 29, and is sunk
DD Okikaze, Shell hits 5
DD Nokaze, Shell hits 4, on fire
DD Asagao, Shell hits 7, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

Allied Ships
CL Durban, Shell hits 1
CL Caledon, Shell hits 1
CL Capetown, Shell hits 10, heavy fires
CL Colombo, Shell hits 11
DD Tjerk Hiddes
DD Stronghold
DD Decoy
DD Express
DD Fortune, Shell hits 1
DD Griffin
DD Isis, Shell hits 1
DD Jupiter, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Norman
DD Panther, Shell hits 4, on fire




This, however, is barking mad.

_____________________________


(in reply to Icedawg)
Post #: 11
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/14/2009 2:31:02 PM   
jjax


Posts: 289
Joined: 2/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg
Day Time Surface Combat, near Koggala at 30,52, Range 5,000 Yards

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
No Japanese losses

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga
CV Hiryu, Shell hits 2, on fire
CV Soryu, Shell hits 4
CV Shokaku, Shell hits 29, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
BB Haruna, Shell hits 14, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
BB Kirishima, Shell hits 1
CA Chikuma, Shell hits 9
CA Aoba, Shell hits 5, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
CL Natori, Shell hits 2
CL Tama, Shell hits 17, heavy fires
DD Oyashio, Shell hits 28, and is sunk
DD Maikaze, Shell hits 29, and is sunk
DD Natsugumo, Shell hits 35, and is sunk
DD Arare, Shell hits 17, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Uranami, Shell hits 29, and is sunk
DD Okikaze, Shell hits 5
DD Nokaze, Shell hits 4, on fire
DD Asagao, Shell hits 7, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

Allied Ships
CL Durban, Shell hits 1
CL Caledon, Shell hits 1
CL Capetown, Shell hits 10, heavy fires
CL Colombo, Shell hits 11
DD Tjerk Hiddes
DD Stronghold
DD Decoy
DD Express
DD Fortune, Shell hits 1
DD Griffin
DD Isis, Shell hits 1
DD Jupiter, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Norman
DD Panther, Shell hits 4, on fire




This, however, is barking mad.


And you should read the whole combat report before you get barking mad. It might not be that far off as you thin (well maybe just a little).

_____________________________

--JJAX


(in reply to EUBanana)
Post #: 12
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/14/2009 2:32:29 PM   
EUBanana


Posts: 4552
Joined: 9/30/2003
From: Little England
Status: offline 		It's been discussed before I  think but surface combat TFs have an advantage over other types of taskforce.  I think certainly in the case of what happens when they meet air combat TFs, the advantage seems to be far too great.

Surely the sole reason why a BB is in an air combat TF at all is to protect the CVs.   So theres two battleships there whose sole mission is to make sure the CVs are safe.  Thats a hell of a lot more firepower than a CL can manage, and in daylight too, and I presume in open seas.  And then theres a whole mass of DDs to screen against torpedo attacks.

Surely in daylight the Allies would be massacred 95% of the time.

I can understand a night battle being much more of a tossup, but during the day?


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Post #: 13
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/14/2009 2:34:40 PM   
EUBanana


Posts: 4552
Joined: 9/30/2003
From: Little England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jjax
And you should read the whole combat report before you get barking mad. It might not be that far off as you thin (well maybe just a little).


...Ah.

Still, even then. The CVs are going to be right in the middle of a whole gang of ships screening them. Getting within 3000 yards of Shokaku seems unlikely, given there is going to be an escort between Shokaku and the attackers.

The radar didnt really give much warning, either.

Still, I suppose. Torpedoes at unsuspecting targets 5000 yards in a thunderstorm. Sure, I guess I can believe that.

< Message edited by EUBanana -- 8/14/2009 2:36:07 PM >

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Post #: 14
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/14/2009 2:37:45 PM   
bstarr


Posts: 881
Joined: 8/1/2004
From: Texas, by God!
Status: offline 		I've seen similar results. I wish I had saved the engagements, but I played with one action where the same Japanese fleet (Kongo, Haruna, etc) was attacked by Exeter and Enterprise (HMS, not USS) and a handlful of destoryers. The brits won hands down.

Now this is where it gets really wacky. I kept restarting the same fight, reducing the brits to see how weak they had to be to produce a loss. I finally got down to 1 CL, the Enterprise, vs the whole Japanese force - yes, the Enterprise was sunk, but she took the Kongo and a destroyer down with her.

Yeah, something needs to be fixed.

_____________________________



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Post #: 15
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/14/2009 2:39:42 PM   
Miller


Posts: 2226
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Ashington, England.
Status: offline 		In the two fights mentioned the RN wins 15:2 in torpedo hits.

(in reply to EUBanana)
Post #: 16
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/14/2009 2:41:05 PM   
pad152

 

Posts: 2871
Joined: 4/23/2000
Status: offline 		Any one seen a surface combat where the Japanese defeats a equal or superior force? So far I haven't!

(in reply to EUBanana)
Post #: 17
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/14/2009 2:45:32 PM   
herwin

 

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

It's been discussed before I  think but surface combat TFs have an advantage over other types of taskforce.  I think certainly in the case of what happens when they meet air combat TFs, the advantage seems to be far too great.

Surely the sole reason why a BB is in an air combat TF at all is to protect the CVs.   So theres two battleships there whose sole mission is to make sure the CVs are safe.  Thats a hell of a lot more firepower than a CL can manage, and in daylight too, and I presume in open seas.  And then theres a whole mass of DDs to screen against torpedo attacks.

Surely in daylight the Allies would be massacred 95% of the time.

I can understand a night battle being much more of a tossup, but during the day?



There is one issue. Carriers and transports should be behind (at least some of) the destroyers and heavy gunships, not mixed in with them. The game currently organises one or two lines of combatants. It should add a third for carriers and non-combatants.

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to EUBanana)
Post #: 18
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/14/2009 2:45:47 PM   
Crimguy


Posts: 1409
Joined: 8/15/2003
From: Cave Creek, AZ
Status: offline 		If visibility is truly horrible, there is certainly a chance that the attackers could get a major jump on the defenders.

I have only had one surface engagement so far of any size, and the Japs crushed me.

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Post #: 19
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/14/2009 2:50:30 PM   
denisonh


Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/21/2001
From: Upstate SC
Status: offline 		I would prefer to see this engagement run 30 times and see what the distribution of outcomes are.



One cannot evaluate a combat model with a single outcome. Kind of like if I win the lottery on the first ticket I buy having the expectation to win everytime.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 20
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/14/2009 2:52:11 PM   
Zebedee


Posts: 535
Joined: 8/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152

Any one seen a surface combat where the Japanese defeats a equal or superior force? So far I haven't!


Check the AAR forum. The two examples in this thread are outliers with very reasonable ingame explanations (actually given in the combat reports). Remember too that FoW applies to combat reports. I've given up counting how many ships I've sunk which aren't when I've checked once the turn has processed! In AI games, what difficulty level is being used - Very Hard gives combat bonuses to the AI (although whether this touches naval combat, who knows?).

_____________________________


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Post #: 21
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/14/2009 2:54:49 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		OK...here is one:

Night battle off Tassafaronga:

Japs have only 8 DD's, no radar, Takanami, Oyashio, Kuroshio, Kagero, Makinami, Naganami, Kawakaze, and Suzukaze. Even worse, the Japs had no torpedo reloads as they were on a fast transport mission to Lunga.

Allies have the heavy cruisers USS Minneapolis, New Orleans, Pensacola, and Northampton, the light cruiser Honolulu, and four destroyers (Fletcher, Drayton, Maury, and Perkins)...plus radar advantage. Good bye Jap DD's, right?

Nope. The Japs lose one DD, the Allies lose Northampton and the other three CA's are beat up bad..Pensacola was out of the war for 11 mos.

Ridiculous

(in reply to Icedawg)
Post #: 22
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/14/2009 3:01:54 PM   
Dixie


Posts: 10303
Joined: 3/10/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

OK...here is one:

Night battle off Tassafaronga:

Japs have only 8 DD's, no radar, Takanami, Oyashio, Kuroshio, Kagero, Makinami, Naganami, Kawakaze, and Suzukaze. Even worse, the Japs had no torpedo reloads as they were on a fast transport mission to Lunga.

Allies have the heavy cruisers USS Minneapolis, New Orleans, Pensacola, and Northampton, the light cruiser Honolulu, and four destroyers (Fletcher, Drayton, Maury, and Perkins)...plus radar advantage. Good bye Jap DD's, right?

Nope. The Japs lose one DD, the Allies lose Northampton and the other three CA's are beat up bad..Pensacola was out of the war for 11 mos.

Ridiculous


We all know real life is bugged though

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Post #: 23
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/14/2009 3:13:02 PM   
SteveD64

 

Posts: 570
Joined: 10/26/2006
From: Shaker Hts, Ohio, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin


quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

It's been discussed before I  think but surface combat TFs have an advantage over other types of taskforce.  I think certainly in the case of what happens when they meet air combat TFs, the advantage seems to be far too great.

Surely the sole reason why a BB is in an air combat TF at all is to protect the CVs.   So theres two battleships there whose sole mission is to make sure the CVs are safe.  Thats a hell of a lot more firepower than a CL can manage, and in daylight too, and I presume in open seas.  And then theres a whole mass of DDs to screen against torpedo attacks.

Surely in daylight the Allies would be massacred 95% of the time.

I can understand a night battle being much more of a tossup, but during the day?



There is one issue. Carriers and transports should be behind (at least some of) the destroyers and heavy gunships, not mixed in with them. The game currently organises one or two lines of combatants. It should add a third for carriers and non-combatants.


Yeah, I buy this. As it stands a transport task force has a good chance of being wiped out to the last ship if it encounters a superior surface fleet. Even lightly escorted transports could get away from a battle, maybe not unscathed, simply because of the confusion of the battle and fact that they would scatter. Seems now they're just sitting in a battle line.

(in reply to herwin)
Post #: 24
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/14/2009 3:35:21 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jjax

I agree that surface combat needs a bit of balancing.

But I think a lot of people are just looking at the number of ships and ship types and thinking that they should have won the battle.



As in Denmark Strait. 1 BB and 1 CA vs. 2 BB and 2 CA. Obviously Bismarck and Prinz Eugen won that one.

(in reply to jjax)
Post #: 25
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/14/2009 3:42:12 PM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline 		If this was resonable would happen once in a time. Not wacky results so often.

quote:

Night battle off Tassafaronga:

Japs have only 8 DD's, no radar, Takanami, Oyashio, Kuroshio, Kagero, Makinami, Naganami, Kawakaze, and Suzukaze. Even worse, the Japs had no torpedo reloads as they were on a fast transport mission to Lunga.

Allies have the heavy cruisers USS Minneapolis, New Orleans, Pensacola, and Northampton, the light cruiser Honolulu, and four destroyers (Fletcher, Drayton, Maury, and Perkins)...plus radar advantage. Good bye Jap DD's, right?

Nope. The Japs lose one DD, the Allies lose Northampton and the other three CA's are beat up bad..Pensacola was out of the war for 11 mos.

Ridiculous


Not necessarely comparable. A bunch of torpedos launched at once can unbalance an engagement, because it happens in small time window and can be made undetected. Shooting up the other one is a bit different, it emplies time and being detected.

(in reply to Dixie)
Post #: 26
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/14/2009 3:54:45 PM   
EUBanana


Posts: 4552
Joined: 9/30/2003
From: Little England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL:  Mike Scholl
As in Denmark Strait.  1 BB and 1 CA vs. 2 BB and 2 CA.  Obviously Bismarck and Prinz Eugen won that one.


I dunno.  It'd be quite clear from the AE combat report what happens here...

BC Hood is hit by KMS Bismarck
*MAGAZINE EXPLOSION*
Leach, J orders Allied T to disengage



I don't think you'd see people arguing over that one in the forums.

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(in reply to Dili)
Post #: 27
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/14/2009 3:54:48 PM   
hellfirejet


Posts: 1052
Joined: 12/16/2008
From: Scotland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl


quote:

ORIGINAL: jjax

I agree that surface combat needs a bit of balancing.

But I think a lot of people are just looking at the number of ships and ship types and thinking that they should have won the battle.



As in Denmark Strait. 1 BB and 1 CA vs. 2 BB and 2 CA. Obviously Bismarck and Prinz Eugen won that one.


Nearly right the 2 British heavy cruiser's played no part in the action,just shadowed and allowed Hood & Prince of Wales to engage Bismarck & Prinz Eugen, Prince of Wales was new with dock yard workmen on board,and Hood was old,plunging fire did the damage at long range,she just blew up !! along with a relative of mine,he is very sadly missed

_____________________________

Regards,
Graham.

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction! Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 28
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/14/2009 3:56:20 PM   
EUBanana


Posts: 4552
Joined: 9/30/2003
From: Little England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hellfirejet along with a relative of mine,he is very sadly missed


Bummer.



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(in reply to hellfirejet)
Post #: 29
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/14/2009 4:00:28 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		This is quite funny. When WitP came out, people were appalled that most of the ships in for example Transport TF could escape, since attackers usually concentrated on couple of ships. People demanded change.

OK, now it is different in AE and whole TFs can be easily wiped out by Surface Combat TF. And people demand change.



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"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


(in reply to EUBanana)
Post #: 30
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