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Midgets - 8/10/2009 2:51:22 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		Just curious......has anyone tried to use alot of midget subs, and what kind of results are you seeing beyond the PH attack?

The PH midgets seem to get a hit in every once in awhile, plus losing all the subs.

IRL, midgets weren't worth the effort, and I suspect that's true in AE as well, but just curious how it's working out for others

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RE: Midgets - 8/10/2009 2:53:17 PM   
Feltan


Posts: 1160
Joined: 12/5/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Just curious......has anyone tried to use alot of midget subs, and what kind of results are you seeing beyond the PH attack?

The PH midgets seem to get a hit in every once in awhile, plus losing all the subs.

IRL, midgets weren't worth the effort, and I suspect that's true in AE as well, but just curious how it's working out for others



Q-Ball,

Other than the PH attacks, I never plan to use them.

As you stated, IRL they weren't worth the effort. I see no reason not to learn from that lesson.

Regards,
Feltan

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Post #: 2
RE: Midgets - 8/10/2009 3:02:42 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Just curious......has anyone tried to use alot of midget subs, and what kind of results are you seeing beyond the PH attack?

The PH midgets seem to get a hit in every once in awhile, plus losing all the subs.

IRL, midgets weren't worth the effort, and I suspect that's true in AE as well, but just curious how it's working out for others



Q-Ball,

Other than the PH attacks, I never plan to use them.

As you stated, IRL they weren't worth the effort. I see no reason not to learn from that lesson.

Regards,
Feltan


I'd recommend that you do use them. Grab a couple and the big I-Boats that can carry them and stage a raid on a major rear area base (Sydney, San Francisco, Bombay maybe). You might catch your opponent with no ASW assets assigned to protect his rear area harbors. And once you do raid once or twice, he will have no option but to assign such assets - which he badly needs elsewhere.

(in reply to Feltan)
Post #: 3
RE: Midgets - 8/10/2009 3:09:31 PM   
John Lansford

 

Posts: 2662
Joined: 4/29/2002
Status: offline 		I figure that's what those YP's are for since you can't assign them to transport or escort duties.  Of course, I've only got them on the WC and am using anything with a DC thrower right now in Australia for anti-sub duties...

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 4
RE: Midgets - 8/10/2009 3:14:21 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan
IRL, midgets weren't worth the effort, and I suspect that's true in AE as well, but just curious how it's working out for others

As you stated, IRL they weren't worth the effort. I see no reason not to learn from that lesson.



You guys are going to break BRADY's heart saying things like that.....

(in reply to Feltan)
Post #: 5
RE: Midgets - 8/10/2009 3:17:10 PM   
PeteG662


Posts: 1263
Joined: 6/7/2004
Status: offline 		Only thing I use midgets for is throwing.....fun pub game!

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 6
RE: Midgets - 8/10/2009 3:23:07 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		Anyone know offhand which subs can carry midgets?

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Created by the amazing Dixie

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Post #: 7
RE: Midgets - 8/10/2009 3:45:38 PM   
Feltan


Posts: 1160
Joined: 12/5/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
... I'd recommend that you do use them. Grab a couple and the big I-Boats that can carry them and stage a raid on a major rear area base (Sydney, San Francisco, Bombay maybe). You might catch your opponent with no ASW assets assigned to protect his rear area harbors. And once you do raid once or twice, he will have no option but to assign such assets - which he badly needs elsewhere.


Don,

That is an interesting idea. However, widespread use of midgets would be ahistorical.

In real life, the Japanese deployed less than 50 midgets (although more were built, they didn't leave the HI area), and only about 15 saw action. They never met the expectations of the IJN. If I recall correctly, they were used at PH, Sydney, Ulithi, Okinawa and Guam; they sank about 5 ships. However, it is an interesting option.

Another interesting option would be for the Japanese to use their subs to mine enemy ports. Which they did historically to much greater affect than the use of midgets for less expediture of resources. Keeping Allied mine sweeping resources tied up at rear area ports is, in my opinion, an equally valid goal -- and one more in line with historical reality.

Regards,
Feltan


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Post #: 8
RE: Midgets - 8/10/2009 4:20:30 PM   
CEDeaton


Posts: 149
Joined: 4/16/2003
From: Plano, TX
Status: offline 		Alas, with the advent of AE and the Mine Tenders, gone are the days of 9000 mine defenses.

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Semper Fi,
Craig

It's always pilot error. Sometimes the idiot just doesn't know how to fly a broken aircraft.

(in reply to Feltan)
Post #: 9
RE: Midgets - 8/10/2009 4:36:12 PM   
Feltan


Posts: 1160
Joined: 12/5/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CraigDeaton

Alas, with the advent of AE and the Mine Tenders, gone are the days of 9000 mine defenses.


Craig,

For most of the Pacific islands, I am happy those days are gone. The under water geography simply would not allow for massive mine fields around Iwo Jima, Truk, Saipan, etc. The water was too deep and the currents too strong to maintain anything other than a few mines for harbor defense. I maintain the problem with mine warfare in WITP was not mines, it was how the depth of the ocean was modelled on the map. Atols and some islands should not be coastal hexes, they should be deep water.

Regards,
Feltan




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Post #: 10
RE: Midgets - 8/10/2009 4:39:11 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		AI tried to use them against me in Colombo, but carrier sub hit mine and midgets got stuck in sub net... Talk about surprise. And I formed ASW TF just in case...that was promptly sunk by KB air attack next day...

Great stuff, I am enjoying the game.


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(in reply to Feltan)
Post #: 11
RE: Midgets - 8/10/2009 5:30:50 PM   
Brady


Posts: 10701
Joined: 10/25/2002
From: Oregon,USA
Status: offline 		All you ever wanted to know about Midgets:

http://www.combinedfleet.com/midgets.htm


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Beta Team Member for:

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Obi-wan Kenobi said it best: A lot of the reality we perceive depend on our point of view

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Post #: 12
RE: Midgets - 8/10/2009 5:46:00 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		Has anyone considered using the midgets assigned to attack PH somewhere else?

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Created by the amazing Dixie

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Post #: 13
RE: Midgets - 8/10/2009 5:46:54 PM   
CEDeaton


Posts: 149
Joined: 4/16/2003
From: Plano, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan


quote:

ORIGINAL: CraigDeaton

Alas, with the advent of AE and the Mine Tenders, gone are the days of 9000 mine defenses.


Craig,

For most of the Pacific islands, I am happy those days are gone. The under water geography simply would not allow for massive mine fields around Iwo Jima, Truk, Saipan, etc. The water was too deep and the currents too strong to maintain anything other than a few mines for harbor defense. I maintain the problem with mine warfare in WITP was not mines, it was how the depth of the ocean was modelled on the map. Atols and some islands should not be coastal hexes, they should be deep water.

Regards,
Feltan





Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they were very realistic, but it sure was fun to watch!

_____________________________

Semper Fi,
Craig

It's always pilot error. Sometimes the idiot just doesn't know how to fly a broken aircraft.

(in reply to Feltan)
Post #: 14
RE: Midgets - 8/10/2009 6:02:47 PM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline
quote:

In real life, the Japanese deployed less than 50 midgets (although more were built, they didn't leave the HI area), and only about 15 saw action. They never met the expectations of the IJN. If I recall correctly, they were used at PH, Sydney, Ulithi, Okinawa and Guam;


"In May 1942 Ramillies was still in the Indian Ocean and was sent to cover the Allied invasion of Madagascar. On 29 May 1942, a reconnaissance plane from the Japanese submarine I-10 spotted Ramillies at anchor in Diego Suarez harbour. Ramillies changed berth after the plane was seen. However, the Japanese submarines I-16 and I-20 launched two midget submarines, one of which, commanded by Lieutenant Saburo Akieda, managed to penetrate the harbour and to fire its two torpedoes. The first torpedo severely damaged Ramillies at about 20:25; the second sank the oil tanker British Loyalty at 21:20. Lieutenant Akieda came under depth charge attack from the corvettes Genista and Thyme but managed to beach his submarine and flee inland with Petty Officer Masami Takemoto. Both were killed in a firefight with Royal Marines three days later.

Ramillies was reported sunk by the Japanese, but in fact was merely severely damaged. She was towed to Durban for temporary repairs, then in August 1942 she returned to Plymouth under her own steam and was back in service in June 1943." Wikiquote

(in reply to CEDeaton)
Post #: 15
RE: Midgets - 8/10/2009 6:25:07 PM   
Knavey

 

Posts: 3052
Joined: 9/12/2002
From: Valrico, Florida
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan



Don,

That is an interesting idea. However, widespread use of midgets would be ahistorical.



I think historical play goes out the window as soon as the players make thier first turn.

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x-Nuc twidget
CVN-71
USN 87-93
"Going slow in the fast direction"

(in reply to Feltan)
Post #: 16
RE: Midgets - 8/10/2009 6:58:10 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		Japanese midgets.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 17
RE: Midgets - 8/10/2009 7:06:17 PM   
Iridium


Posts: 932
Joined: 4/1/2005
From: Jersey
Status: offline 		Nice Afro.

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Yamato, IMO the best looking Battleship.

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Post #: 18
RE: Midgets - 8/10/2009 7:12:00 PM   
Feltan


Posts: 1160
Joined: 12/5/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Knavey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan



Don,

That is an interesting idea. However, widespread use of midgets would be ahistorical.



I think historical play goes out the window as soon as the players make thier first turn.


Knavey,

Certainly you are correct to a point. The game is not scripted, you do not have to follow historical paths.

I appreciate the option of using midget subs to a greater extent than was historically possible. I think that is neat. I like it.

The point I was making above is that if options are important, and I think they are, I am dismayed that I couldn't use mines more aggressively. Such use has more historical precident, is economically more advantageous, and produces better results based on historical outcomes.

I should have been more clear.

Regards,
Feltan


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(in reply to Knavey)
Post #: 19
RE: Midgets - 8/10/2009 7:20:24 PM   
Local Yokel


Posts: 1494
Joined: 2/4/2007
From: Somerset, U.K.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Just curious......has anyone tried to use alot of midget subs, and what kind of results are you seeing beyond the PH attack?

The PH midgets seem to get a hit in every once in awhile, plus losing all the subs.

IRL, midgets weren't worth the effort, and I suspect that's true in AE as well, but just curious how it's working out for others


Although it's arguable the Japanese could/should have got more out of their midgets, I disagree that the midget concept wasn't worth the effort. On the contrary, I suggest that they showed themselves to be one of the more successful innovations of WW2 as a means of attacking capital ships in their home base. As evidence of this I look to Operation Source: the RN X craft attack on Tirpitz, and de la Pene/Bianchi's superlative SLC attack on Valiant and QE at Alexandria (underwater work being something at which the Italians have excelled from Egypt onwards). And Dili beat me to it by pointing out that the IJN can point to Diego Suarez as a qualified success, at least.

Actually, I wonder whether the AE team have let an opportunity slip. Why doesn't the RN get some XE craft in 1945, wherewith to emulate the extraordinarily courageous attack of Fraser and Magennis in XE-3 upon the Takao at Singapore? Or did I miss something in the reinforcement queue?

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Post #: 20
RE: Midgets - 8/10/2009 7:42:13 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Er, no... The AIRCRAFT was the more successful innovation when attacking enemy ships in their bases. Midget subs were a waste of resources.

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Post #: 21
RE: Midgets - 8/10/2009 7:45:45 PM   
Iridium


Posts: 932
Joined: 4/1/2005
From: Jersey
Status: offline 		Midget Subs can be used for base defense as well no? Create 5 of them and form a TF...it should cause some mischief among a bombardment fleet or transport ships.

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Yamato, IMO the best looking Battleship.

"Hey, a packet of googly eyes! I'm so taking these." Hank Venture

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Post #: 22
RE: Midgets - 8/10/2009 9:15:13 PM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline 		The 6* Italian CB Midget subs in Black Sea sunk 2 Soviet Submarines(plus one unconfirmed) in one year May42-May43.

http://www.modelshipwrights.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=118380&page=1

*(in practice 5 since one of those was almost from start sunk by aircraft bombing attack in the harbour)

quote:

Actually, I wonder whether the AE team have let an opportunity slip. Why doesn't the RN get some XE craft in 1945, wherewith to emulate the extraordinarily courageous attack of Fraser and Magennis in XE-3 upon the Takao at Singapore? Or did I miss something in the reinforcement queue?


Yeah, i found surprising that AE team limited midgets to Japan only. After British copied the Italian chariots they started to use them against Italians itself from 1943.

< Message edited by Dili -- 8/10/2009 9:19:01 PM >

(in reply to Iridium)
Post #: 23
RE: Midgets - 8/14/2009 6:16:04 PM   
Knavey

 

Posts: 3052
Joined: 9/12/2002
From: Valrico, Florida
Status: offline 		Another point is that although they did not use them (the non-afro midgets) effectively, SOMEONE in the Japanese command was planning on using them. This is a LOT of submarines.






Attachment (1)

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x-Nuc twidget
CVN-71
USN 87-93
"Going slow in the fast direction"

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Post #: 24
RE: Midgets - 8/14/2009 6:29:01 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		basically with midgets.....expect very low returns from high efforts. Depending on the target though.....you might experience some joy and produce some new swear words from your opponent. :)


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Post #: 25
RE: Midgets - 8/14/2009 7:18:24 PM   
juliet7bravo

 

Posts: 894
Joined: 5/30/2001
Status: offline 		Dan Bowen hit it right.  Any ASW assets you tie down in the rear, are assets that aren't being used at the front.  What was the point of having long range I-boats that could carry midgets, if you didn't transport them long-distances?  Then using the midgets against the most heavily defended bases, when civilian ports bursting with shipping were (comparatively speaking) wide-open all up and down the West Coast?

"I maintain the problem with mine warfare in WITP was not mines, it was how the depth of the ocean was modelled on the map. Atols and some islands should not be coastal hexes, they should be deep water."

Also exactly right.  Might have also used mine fields that were based on percent effective to reflect mine density, with their effectiveness maxing at 100%, regardless of how many additional mines were laid.  The current solution was "throwing the baby out with the bath water".

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 26
RE: Midgets - 8/15/2009 8:50:50 AM   
oldman45


Posts: 2320
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Jacksonville Fl
Status: offline 		I just had a mini sub attack a ship outside of Sydney, then I had another minisub attack outside of Rabaul.

(in reply to juliet7bravo)
Post #: 27
RE: Midgets - 8/15/2009 10:26:16 AM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

I'd recommend that you do use them. Grab a couple and the big I-Boats that can carry them and stage a raid on a major rear area base (Sydney, San Francisco, Bombay maybe). You might catch your opponent with no ASW assets assigned to protect his rear area harbors. And once you do raid once or twice, he will have no option but to assign such assets - which he badly needs elsewhere.


Obviously you have never actually tried doing this. Mommy boats usually hit the minefields and their spawn hits a fair number as well. And if you do manage to get 1 into the port, a hit on anything bigger than a DD isnt going to sink it sooooo, you just gave up 15 to 40 points (or more) for what? To damage a BB? Big deal.

No way in hell are these things worth the points you lose for using them. Best thing is to put them in a friendly port (like Saipan) and use them as a floating minefield.

_____________________________


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Post #: 28
RE: Midgets - 8/15/2009 4:02:07 PM   
juliet7bravo

 

Posts: 894
Joined: 5/30/2001
Status: offline 		Interesting bit of useless trivia from a tanker TROM;

"Summer 1941:
Enroute to Los Angeles to load a cargo of oil, KENYO MARU stops at Kwajalein, Marshall Islands. At the IJN's submarine base, she takes a Type A midget submaine under tow. KENYO MARU tows the midget underwater to the vicinity of the Hawaiian Islands. There, the midget is again taken under tow by another oiler and towed underwater back to Kwajalein. The purpose of this exercise is give the midget submariners deep sea towing and navigation experience."

(in reply to Yamato hugger)
Post #: 29
RE: Midgets - 8/15/2009 6:18:56 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger


quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

I'd recommend that you do use them. Grab a couple and the big I-Boats that can carry them and stage a raid on a major rear area base (Sydney, San Francisco, Bombay maybe). You might catch your opponent with no ASW assets assigned to protect his rear area harbors. And once you do raid once or twice, he will have no option but to assign such assets - which he badly needs elsewhere.


Obviously you have never actually tried doing this. Mommy boats usually hit the minefields and their spawn hits a fair number as well. And if you do manage to get 1 into the port, a hit on anything bigger than a DD isnt going to sink it sooooo, you just gave up 15 to 40 points (or more) for what? To damage a BB? Big deal.

No way in hell are these things worth the points you lose for using them. Best thing is to put them in a friendly port (like Saipan) and use them as a floating minefield.


I've done a total of 4 starts in AE. Three times there have been torpedo hits on a BB by a midget sub. In one case that BB was hit by nothing else during the turn, but sank during combat resolution anyway. One midget torpedo hit sank one BB.

[Add: Talking about Pearl Harbor turn 1.]

< Message edited by witpqs -- 8/15/2009 6:24:33 PM >

(in reply to Yamato hugger)
Post #: 30
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