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RE: KB Fuel Level Too High - Discuss - 8/14/2009 8:32:00 PM

denisonh

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sonny II

quote:

The bike is in the shop, and I'm aching.

Better than the other way round!

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Post #: 61

RE: KB Fuel Level Too High - Discuss - 8/14/2009 8:48:44 PM

Brady

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From: Oregon,USA
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More from Glen, refering to Herwins:

About 13000+ tons of fuel transferred prior to the attack run, 13500 afterwards, refueling during and after the return trip was about 34000 tons, total fuel used was about 64000 tons. Kaga, Zuikaku, and Shokaku made the trip without refuelling; the rest refuelled on a regular basis. Fleet bunkerage capacity was 56000+ tons, with another 3000 tons of fuel in drums etc. If Halsey had caught the replen TF on the 7th, there was enough fuel left to make Truk if the destroyers were refuelled from the heavy ships (an ad-hoc manoeuvre in the IJN). The destroyers used 56% of their fuel bunkerage and the cruisers, Akagi, Soryu, and Hiryu used about 35% of their fuel bunkerage for the attack run.

I�ve never seen a reference giving refueling information for 1st or 2nd Car Div. Have him provide it. His claim that 5th Carrier made the trip �without refueling� is wrong; the log of the 5th CAR DIV shows that at least Zuikaku was refueled once. 3 BAT DIV�s log shows only one refueling, for a total of 823 tons (at about 60 tons/hour). Zuikaku took on 350 tons from a tanker, giving a total usage for this carrier of 4,150 tons during the whole mission.

Re - Akagi using, �35%� of its fuel bunkerage, �for the attack run�.

Fuel burn rates differ from ship to ship, but roughly the function is that for every ton burned at 12kt, 1.25 tons are burned at 16kt, 2 tons are burned at 18kt, 4 tons at 24kt, 5 tons at 26kt, 9 tons at 30kt and 14 tons at 36kt. So, when 2nd CAR DIV and 8th CRU DIV made their 24 hour 30kt run to Wake (which your poster appears to have included in his mission figures), they consumed about 9 times the fuel in comparison to normal cruising speed.

Bunkerage was about 6,000 tons for Akagi and the attack run was 24hrs in duration. For Akagi to burn 2,000 tons in 24 hours would require a burn rate of 83 tons per hour. In the US fleet, an equivelent ship to Akagi was roughly the Saratoga. USN records indicate that this was the worst fuel pig in the entire US Navy, and burned 1435 tons per day at 26kt.

For Hiryu, the USS Ranger would be in the ball park, and Ranger burned 435 tons/day at 26kt (which would be about 12% of Hiryu�s bunkerage). In both cases, the poster is including the 24 hour run away from Hawaii in the �attack run� total, and Hiryu�s figure will still be exaggerated even with this addition.

Akagi had aboard 1,450 tons extra oil. Soryu and Hiryu 700 tons each. They should have re-supplied daily on the way over, to keep their tanks topped up. 2nd Car Div timed it so that it would finish off its surplus (barreled) fuel during the night of the approach to Hawaii. Akagi will have done the same thing, meaning that all three ships should have been near to full capacity on the morning of the attack, because in each ship the stored extra was greater than the requirement for the run in.

For further comparison, Essex burned 17 tons per hour at 24kt and Yamato burned around 45-50 tons. Yamato�s displacement was about 65,000 tons, Akagi�s was 41,000 and Hiryu�s about 19,000.

How dificult was it for the DD's to refuel from the Captail Ships?

Not any more difficult than from a tanker. Nagumo�s order reads,

From CO of Task Force, 5 Dec, to Task Force, recieved 0815 5 Dec (signal). Task Force Signal Order No. 19 Paragraph 3: In case the rendezvous with the 1st Supply Group could not be made, it is planned that destroyers in guard missions be refueled from carriers and Abikuma and Tanikaze from the Third Battleship Division.

Nagumo knew his business � he�d not have given this instruction if he thought the task was too difficult to perform. I'd simply tune out anyone saying that the Japanese "couldn't" do that.

How Many days worth of fuel did the DD's have on hand after their dash in?

A DD would burn about 120 tons per 24hr at 24kt. I think capacity was about 550 tons. The final refueling was just before the dash to the launch point.

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Post #: 62

RE: KB Fuel Level Too High - Discuss - 8/14/2009 8:49:22 PM

Brady

Posts: 10701
Joined: 10/25/2002
From: Oregon,USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady

More from Glen, refering to Herwins:

About 13000+ tons of fuel transferred prior to the attack run, 13500 afterwards, refueling during and after the return trip was about 34000 tons, total fuel used was about 64000 tons. Kaga, Zuikaku, and Shokaku made the trip without refuelling; the rest refuelled on a regular basis. Fleet bunkerage capacity was 56000+ tons, with another 3000 tons of fuel in drums etc. If Halsey had caught the replen TF on the 7th, there was enough fuel left to make Truk if the destroyers were refuelled from the heavy ships (an ad-hoc manoeuvre in the IJN). The destroyers used 56% of their fuel bunkerage and the cruisers, Akagi, Soryu, and Hiryu used about 35% of their fuel bunkerage for the attack run.

I�ve never seen a reference giving refueling information for 1st or 2nd Car Div. Have him provide it. His claim that 5th Carrier made the trip �without refueling� is wrong; the log of the 5th CAR DIV shows that at least Zuikaku was refueled once. 3 BAT DIV�s log shows only one refueling, for a total of 823 tons (at about 60 tons/hour). Zuikaku took on 350 tons from a tanker, giving a total usage for this carrier of 4,150 tons during the whole mission.

Re - Akagi using, �35%� of its fuel bunkerage, �for the attack run�.

Fuel burn rates differ from ship to ship, but roughly the function is that for every ton burned at 12kt, 1.25 tons are burned at 16kt, 2 tons are burned at 18kt, 4 tons at 24kt, 5 tons at 26kt, 9 tons at 30kt and 14 tons at 36kt. So, when 2nd CAR DIV and 8th CRU DIV made their 24 hour 30kt run to Wake (which your poster appears to have included in his mission figures), they consumed about 9 times the fuel in comparison to normal cruising speed.

Bunkerage was about 6,000 tons for Akagi and the attack run was 24hrs in duration. For Akagi to burn 2,000 tons in 24 hours would require a burn rate of 83 tons per hour. In the US fleet, an equivelent ship to Akagi was roughly the Saratoga. USN records indicate that this was the worst fuel pig in the entire US Navy, and burned 1435 tons per day at 26kt.

For Hiryu, the USS Ranger would be in the ball park, and Ranger burned 435 tons/day at 26kt (which would be about 12% of Hiryu�s bunkerage). In both cases, the poster is including the 24 hour run away from Hawaii in the �attack run� total, and Hiryu�s figure will still be exaggerated even with this addition.

Akagi had aboard 1,450 tons extra oil. Soryu and Hiryu 700 tons each. They should have re-supplied daily on the way over, to keep their tanks topped up. 2nd Car Div timed it so that it would finish off its surplus (barreled) fuel during the night of the approach to Hawaii. Akagi will have done the same thing, meaning that all three ships should have been near to full capacity on the morning of the attack, because in each ship the stored extra was greater than the requirement for the run in.

For further comparison, Essex burned 17 tons per hour at 24kt and Yamato burned around 45-50 tons. Yamato�s displacement was about 65,000 tons, Akagi�s was 41,000 and Hiryu�s about 19,000.

How dificult was it for the DD's to refuel from the Captail Ships?

Not any more difficult than from a tanker. Nagumo�s order reads,

From CO of Task Force, 5 Dec, to Task Force, recieved 0815 5 Dec (signal). Task Force Signal Order No. 19 Paragraph 3: In case the rendezvous with the 1st Supply Group could not be made, it is planned that destroyers in guard missions be refueled from carriers and Abikuma and Tanikaze from the Third Battleship Division.

Nagumo knew his business � he�d not have given this instruction if he thought the task was too difficult to perform. I'd simply tune out anyone saying that the Japanese "couldn't" do that.

How Many days worth of fuel did the DD's have on hand after their dash in?

A DD would burn about 120 tons per 24hr at 24kt. I think capacity was about 550 tons. The final refueling was just before the dash to the launch point.

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Post #: 63

RE: KB Fuel Level Too High - Discuss - 8/14/2009 9:44:02 PM

herwin

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sonny II

quote:

The bike is in the shop, and I'm aching.

Better than the other way round!

It scared my wife. She remembers a similar incident that left a friend a widow with two small children.

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(in reply to Sonny II)

Post #: 64

RE: KB Fuel Level Too High - Discuss - 8/15/2009 10:47:17 AM

herwin

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From: Sunderland, UK
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Much thanks. I was working from Goldstein and Dillon (and even earlier sources). You obviously have later sources. I do know at least one of the DDs was topped up before the attack run and required 250 tons of fuel afterwards. The attack run and return was about 1000-1100 nm.

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Post #: 65

RE: KB Fuel Level Too High - Discuss - 8/15/2009 4:22:24 PM

juliet7bravo

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The bottomline (as I'm seeing it) is that they had enough fuel to launch/recover a 3rd strike, and still make it to the tanker rendevous with a comfortable margin for error.� If they stayed and launched attacks on the 8th, they could have made it to the tanker rendevous with little/no margin for error or combat manuevering.� So, unless Nagumo was insane, they would've had to refuel the DDs on the night of the 7th or as possible on the 8th.� If they'd been located without refueling, the DDs would've had minimal fuel for high-speed manuevering.� Looks to me like it would have been possible to refuel from 3 of the carriers, taking roughly 5-6 hours for each DD (using the 60 tons per hour figure) to top them off.� If the weather cooperated, if the enemy cooperated, if he wanted to slow down and maintain a reasonably steady course in enemy waters, and if he wasn't conducting air ops.

So, what was the weather/sea state at their location on the evening of the 7th and on the 8th?� Was it physically possible to refuel?� This is the $64 question.

Here's a few nuggets from the tanker TROMs;

"Seven oilers are assigned to the Hawaii Operation, but the IJN�s practical experience in refueling at sea is almost nil."

"Nagumo's orders from Admiral (Fleet Admiral, posthumously) Yamamoto Isoroku, CINC, Combined Fleet, are that if refueling proves impossible in the stormy winter waters of the Northern Pacific, Nagumo is to detach AGAKI, SORYU and HIRYU and his destroyers and make the attack with only KAGA, SHOKAKU and ZUIKAKU."

"1 November 1941:
Yokosuka. The CINC 1st Air Fleet, Vice Admiral (Admiral, posthumously) Nagumo Chuichi's (former CO of KIRISHIMA) signals TOEI MARU that after completing battle preparations, TOEI MARU will obtain about 750 drums of fuel oil (for use by AKAGI) and 12,000 kerosene tins of fuel oil (for use by HIRYU) from Yokosuka and rendezvous at Sasebo on 10 November. 5

November 1941:
In addition to refueling from oilers, the Strike Force is required to carry a deck cargo of oil drums. On the carriers, the extra weight of the drums is a cause for concern. The Chief, Bureau Military Affairs Section signals the Chief of Staff, 1st Air Fleet that loading of drums of fuel oil on the 1st Air Fleet's ships will affect the strength of the hull and the ship's performance. He advises that AKAGI should be loaded under 600 tons; SORYU and HIRYU under 400 tons, and that an equivalent weight should be removed. The AKAGI and HIRYU should be loaded amidships and the bow and stern areas avoided. The SORYU should be loaded evenly over length of ship."

(in reply to herwin)

Post #: 66

RE: KB Fuel Level Too High - Discuss - 8/15/2009 4:49:51 PM

Brady

Posts: 10701
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From: Oregon,USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliet7bravo

The bottomline (as I'm seeing it) is that they had enough fuel to launch/recover a 3rd strike, and still make it to the tanker rendevous with a comfortable margin for error.� If they stayed and launched attacks on the 8th, they could have made it to the tanker rendevous with little/no margin for error or combat manuevering.� So, unless Nagumo was insane, they would've had to refuel the DDs on the night of the 7th or as possible on the 8th.� If they'd been located without refueling, the DDs would've had minimal fuel for high-speed manuevering.� Looks to me like it would have been possible to refuel from 3 of the carriers, taking roughly 5-6 hours for each DD (using the 60 tons per hour figure) to top them off.� If the weather cooperated, if the enemy cooperated, if he wanted to slow down and maintain a reasonably steady course in enemy waters, and if he wasn't conducting air ops.

Given the carriers were all prety much toped off they could of stayed for a very long time, and the DD's could refueld from the BB's as well considering this:

A DD would burn about 120 tons per 24hr at 24kt. I think capacity was about 550 tons. The final refueling was just before the dash to the launch point

I think were asuming that they would be at 24 knots their entire time they remained at the strike point which is I think a bit much, give the DD's used about half their fuel for the dash in and out of the strike area historicaly they still had a crusing spead a few days worth of fuel its till posable even if they took no fuel from the BB's.

In Game terms this is all very doable no player is going to keep his ships at high spead.

So, what was the weather/sea state at their location on the evening of the 7th and on the 8th?� Was it physically possible to refuel?� This is the $64 question.

I think in game terms this is sorta irelevent,as weather in game does not at present efect op's of this nature, it is an interesting question though.

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Post #: 67

RE: KB Fuel Level Too High - Discuss - 8/15/2009 5:41:56 PM

juliet7bravo

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Brady, we all know the game mechanics allow the Strike Force to remain on station for 5-6 days.� Why are we having this discussion?� I thought it was to determine whether it was historically feasible.� The answer is a qualified YES.� Qualified by the historical weather/sea state on the night of the 7th and on the 8th, and I don't have a clue where to find that.� If they couldn't refuel then due to weather/sea state, they'd have to head for the rendevous with the tankers NLT the afternoon of the 8th.

DDs had roughly 4 days fuel @24 knots without refueling, with a margin for error and high speed manuevering.� 1 day in, 1 day out, strikes on the 7th, and a days worth of fuel to play with.� Any high speed manuevering would have blown the fuel calcs to pieces.

- could have made a 3rd strike; YES
- conducted air ops on the 8th; YES
- camped out; MAYBE

Cruisers were to refuel from the BBs.

Yes, they could have slowed down.� Would have had to, to refuel.� So we're back to slowing the immensely valuable CVs/BBs down to a crawl, maintaining a steady course, deep into enemy waters, adjacent to a major enemy fleet base you just poked with an extremely sharp stick, and tying a DD/light cruiser to our sterns for hours on end sloooooowly pumping fuel over.� Thus giving Nagumo a sterling opportunity to potentially "snatch defeat from the jaws of victory".� Just so (from his POV) he could bust up some shore installations.� Just like Yamamoto his own bad self, Nagumo was a "Big Gun" admiral, and Yamamoto made his views on using ships against shore installation crystal clear at Midway...if Yamamoto had wanted the shore installations busted, he coulda, woulda, shoulda said so.� And from what I'm gleaning from all these bits'n pieces is that fuel was the overriding consideration during the HI planning process.� Not busting up the PH infrastructure at any cost or risk.

Addendum; They were unable to refuel (from the tankers) on the 5th (or 4th?) while enroute due to weather. On the 7th, the sea state was bad enough that the deck crews had to hold the planes onto the deck while waiting to take off. Nagumo's decision looks more and more like a rational, reasoned (and correct) one, based on the circumstances and information available to him. "What if" he'd run his DDs down to fumes and the weather didn't cooperate when he absolutely had to refuel? One days margin of fuel in the "stormy northern seas" is already cutting it pretty close to the bone.

Though, yes, he really, really should have made a 3rd strike.

< Message edited by juliet7bravo -- 8/15/2009 7:03:04 PM >

(in reply to Brady)

Post #: 68

RE: KB Fuel Level Too High - Discuss - 8/15/2009 6:27:39 PM

Kull

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From: El Paso, TX
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Under the heading of "research before you post", I'm withdrawing my original recommendations in response to this post:

quote:

ORIGINAL: JuanG

You can set up partial fuel/endurance values for ships in the editor, yes.

You cannot set up a tanker with a partial fuel load however - which is what would be needed here.

Whether or not it's possible to modify tanker loads in the editor, the Developers have accounted for it in GC1. The fuel load in the IJN Replenishment TF north of Pearl is 45.5K vs. capacity of 77.2K. So 41% has been expended as-of the end of Turn 1.

(in reply to juliet7bravo)

Post #: 69

RE: KB Fuel Level Too High - Discuss - 8/15/2009 8:47:13 PM

bradfordkay

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From: Olympia, WA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

Sorry about being grumbly. I try to ride my bicycle to work, but on Wednesday I had a head-on collision with a car that was being driven by a kid on the wrong side of the road. The bike is in the shop, and I'm aching.

I'm glad that it wasn't any worse. Was the driver charged with an offense?

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Post #: 70

RE: KB Fuel Level Too High - Discuss - 8/15/2009 9:47:51 PM

Brady

Posts: 10701
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From: Oregon,USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

Under the heading of "research before you post", I'm withdrawing my original recommendations in response to this post:

quote:

ORIGINAL: JuanG

You can set up partial fuel/endurance values for ships in the editor, yes.

You cannot set up a tanker with a partial fuel load however - which is what would be needed here.

Whether or not it's possible to modify tanker loads in the editor, the Developers have accounted for it in GC1. The fuel load in the IJN Replenishment TF north of Pearl is 45.5K vs. capacity of 77.2K. So 41% has been expended as-of the end of Turn 1.

Yikes, thats way to low, it should be prety much full.

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Post #: 71

RE: KB Fuel Level Too High - Discuss - 8/15/2009 9:55:44 PM

Brady

Posts: 10701
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From: Oregon,USA
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Weather- from a dischion regarding this lifted from J-Aircraft:

robdad writes:

Brady,

You asked, "The weather would not of precluded fueling on the 7th or 8th or 9th right???"

Willmott's 2001 book "Pearl Harbor" reports on page 132 that second wave aircraft recoveries by the Kido Butai were hampered by rough seas from 1115-1214 before swinging north at 1300 for a 26 knot run towards the 1st Supply Group which awaited them. The 45 minute delay being necessary for the landing and flying off of more CAP fighters.

So, the seas couldn't have been all that bad.

Historially the meeting of the two groups of Japanese ships did not occur until the evening of the next day, Dec.8'41. I could find no mention of weather conditions affecting re-fueling.

He mentions this in reply to another poster:

Combined_Fleet,

You wrote, "I have never seen any contingency plans or orders for what Kido Butai was to do if the American carriers were not found at Pearl Harbor."

While it doesn't respond exactly to your comment, Gordon Prange's book "At Dawn We Slept" does provide insight in three areas.

Page 386 gives Genda's plan for the Kido Butai to move south of Oahu to search the US Fleet operations areas there if the American warships could not be located.

Page 426 details the PLANS I thru IV that Genda compiled for Nagumo's (never received) approval should the first two air strikes on Oahu prove successful.

And last but not least,

Pages 543 & 544 speak further to Genda's ongoing plans for after successful 1st and 2nd airstrikes. He hoped that Nagumo would call down his tankers from the north so that refueling would allow the KB to prowl Hawaiian waters in search of the missing carriers. It seems that the planning was in place but that Nagumo/Kusaka had already decided to run for home waters rather than staying to complete the job at hand.

< Message edited by Brady -- 8/15/2009 9:56:33 PM >

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RE: KB Fuel Level Too High - Discuss - 8/15/2009 10:51:30 PM

herwin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

Sorry about being grumbly. I try to ride my bicycle to work, but on Wednesday I had a head-on collision with a car that was being driven by a kid on the wrong side of the road. The bike is in the shop, and I'm aching.

I'm glad that it wasn't any worse. Was the driver charged with an offense?

Depends on the police. I'm alive, and the kid will be a lot more careful in the future. He made the appropriate reports to the police, which is a good sign.

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Post #: 73