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RE: Battle Decision - 8/17/2009 11:37:43 PM   
SteveD64

 

Posts: 570
Joined: 10/26/2006
From: Shaker Hts, Ohio, USA
Status: offline 		I guess, for me, as a noob I haven't played enough to see any big Jap disadvantages (also I've only played Guad and Aleutians scenario). But the one that stands out is having a task force wiped out to the last ship.

(in reply to Dili)
Post #: 211
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/18/2009 6:29:37 AM   
Rapunzel


Posts: 141
Joined: 4/20/2005
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:



Surface combat? Where were the Saratoga's aircraft? Grounded by weather conditions? 29000 yards visibility!

The initial reason the various navies built CVs was to maintain air superiority and air observation over the battlefleet. That made it rather difficult for a SAG to surprise a CVTF during the day.


No the weather was good. The 4 other cv tf´s managed to disengage. Only the Saratoga groop and the tanker tf was totaly anilated. (Saratoga went down too). I am against the all or nothing approach in AE. 20+ Tansport TFs with escorts should not be total destroyed from an cl - dd group.

(in reply to herwin)
Post #: 212
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/18/2009 6:50:33 AM   
Rapunzel


Posts: 141
Joined: 4/20/2005
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Another onesided japanese victory. Both tf´s were surface tf´s.

Night Time Surface Combat, near Lunga at 114,138, Range 5,000 Yards

Allied aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft losses
No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
CA Chokai
CA Aoba, Shell hits 6
CA Kinugasa
CA Furutaka, Shell hits 5
CA Kako

Allied Ships
CA Astoria, Shell hits 23, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
CA Quincy, Shell hits 11, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
CA Vincennes, Shell hits 10, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
DD Wilson, Shell hits 8, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Dewey, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Hull, Shell hits 4, and is sunk



Reduced sighting due to 14% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions and 14% moonlight: 6,000 yards
Range closes to 29,000 yards...
Range closes to 23,000 yards...
Range closes to 17,000 yards...
Range closes to 11,000 yards...
Range closes to 5,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 5,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 5,000 yards
CA Aoba engages CA Vincennes at 5,000 yards
CA Furutaka engages CA Quincy at 5,000 yards
CA Astoria engages CA Furutaka at 5,000 yards
CA Aoba engages DD Hull at 5,000 yards
CA Aoba engages DD Dewey at 5,000 yards
CA Aoba engages DD Wilson at 5,000 yards
Range closes to 2,000 yards
CA Furutaka engages CA Vincennes at 2,000 yards
CA Quincy engages CA Furutaka at 2,000 yards
CA Kinugasa engages CA Astoria at 2,000 yards
CA Vincennes sunk by CA Aoba at 2,000 yards
DD Dewey sunk by CA Aoba at 2,000 yards
CA Aoba engages DD Wilson at 2,000 yards
Ehrlich, R.M. orders Allied TF to disengage
Range increases to 6,000 yards
CA Quincy engages CA Aoba at 6,000 yards
CA Quincy engages CA Furutaka at 6,000 yards
CA Kinugasa engages DD Hull at 6,000 yards
CA Aoba engages CA Quincy at 6,000 yards
Range closes to 5,000 yards
CA Kako engages CA Quincy at 5,000 yards
CA Astoria engages CA Aoba at 5,000 yards
CA Quincy sunk by CA Kinugasa at 5,000 yards
DD Wilson engages CA Aoba at 5,000 yards
CA Chokai engages CA Astoria at 5,000 yards
CA Astoria sunk by CA Furutaka at 5,000 yards
DD Wilson sunk by CA Chokai at 5,000 yards
Range increases to 6,000 yards
CA Kako engages DD Hull at 6,000 yards
Combat ends with last Allied ship sunk...

(in reply to Rapunzel)
Post #: 213
RE: Battle Decision - 8/18/2009 7:54:31 AM   
herwin

 

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

quote:

It sounds like the disengagement algorithm would be quite complex, an AI project in itself.


I don't see why. The game already has build the agressiveness of commander and how that means retirement or not from combat? I remmeber in witp was stated that inferior forces would avoid combat or was that related to TF type? For damage disengagement if a TF has a surface combat value and that value is lost suddenly at certain threshold could mean the disengagement. In Witp there was also a problem that ships could be burning, heavily damaged and the guns and AA remained more or less intact.


Handle it like chess. Count your pieces. Count your opponent's pieces. (Old DD = 1, new DD = 2, old/small cruisers = 2, new/large cruisers = 4, large/battle cruisers = 6, battleships = 8, New Jerseys = 10, Yamatos = 16.) Look at the totals. If you're outnumbered >2-1, break off. Use the two totals as your estimates of the combat power of the two sides. They each should produce damage at those rates. Wait and take some significant damage. Update the damage production rates--probably using a Bayesian approach. If it looks like you're being handed your head (your casualty proportion>2*the enemy's), break off. Otherwise continue.

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to Dili)
Post #: 214
RE: Battle Decision - 8/18/2009 8:13:44 AM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		The >2 to 1 measure rings true. Comparing main gun broadside weights of the two battle forces at Jutland, the British outgunned the Germans 2.3 to 1. When the Germans realized they were engaged with the full Grand Fleet they reversed course.

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(in reply to herwin)
Post #: 215
RE: Battle Decision - 8/18/2009 8:47:40 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

The >2 to 1 measure rings true. Comparing main gun broadside weights of the two battle forces at Jutland, the British outgunned the Germans 2.3 to 1. When the Germans realized they were engaged with the full Grand Fleet they reversed course.



Of course! That's why Kurita broke off at Samar. Those 3 DD's and 3 DE's had his BB's, CA's, and DD's badly outnumbered in "points".

Herwin's idea is a good basis..., but the "fleet orders" and the "mission" and the "situation" and the "leadership" all need to play a role as well.

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 216
RE: Battle Decision - 8/18/2009 8:58:44 AM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Yeah, but there were also some aeroplanes involved at Samar - that throws off the (pure surface) calculation a bit.


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(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 217
RE: Battle Decision - 8/18/2009 9:04:27 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

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From: Kansas City, MO
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Yeah, but there were also some aeroplanes involved at Samar - that throws off the (pure surface) calculation a bit.




That's what I mean. It's a good "basis", but "situational factors" still need to be a major player in the calculations. Face it..., Kurita's orders were for a "suicide mission", and he still turned away! Gotta be a lot of "factors" involved in reproducing that (including "dumb luck").

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 218
RE: Battle Decision - 8/18/2009 9:15:57 AM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Sure there are other factors, but having worked on the Jutland numbers a couple of weeks ago - and getting the 2.3 to 1 ratio - and then seeing herwin toss out a 2 to 1 general idea - it matched up too well with what I'd seen not to mention it ...


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(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 219
RE: Battle Decision - 8/18/2009 9:32:54 AM   
John Lansford

 

Posts: 2662
Joined: 4/29/2002
Status: offline 		It didn't help that Scheer had his "T" crossed by Jellicoe, and the RN was firing at ships outlined by the sun while the British ships were hidden in the near darkness.

Last night I had a lone DD encounter a transport TF of 8 AK's escorted by a single CM.  The results were not good for the AI; 5 of the ships sunk, the other 4 left burning heavily, with 1200+ LCU losses.  The DD didn't get touched; oh, and this was in daylight.

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 220
RE: Battle Decision - 8/18/2009 9:33:19 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline 		No arguement..., Herwin certainly has a point.   But Jutland was two fleets looking for a naval action with thier side having an advantage.  So the "break-off calculation" works quite well as there aren't many extraneous factors.   Though the Japanese were desireous  of a "decisive battle" along these lines, very few naval actions in the Pacific War took place in "limbo".   One or both sides generally had distinct "missions" to carry out (Bombardment, covering transports, preventing re-supply, etc..., right up to the Japanese "Naval Kamikaze missions" at the end of the war.).   And these had a distinct effect on how the two parties acted in reality.

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 221
RE: Battle Decision - 8/18/2009 9:47:31 AM   
herwin

 

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

The >2 to 1 measure rings true. Comparing main gun broadside weights of the two battle forces at Jutland, the British outgunned the Germans 2.3 to 1. When the Germans realized they were engaged with the full Grand Fleet they reversed course.


Those weights I quoted were based on an old regression analysis of WWII surface actions assuming a Lanchester square law model, so they weren't picked out of the air. Situation and mission can overcome a 2-1 superiority, but beyond that, "quantity has a quality all its own." (Stalin)

< Message edited by herwin -- 8/18/2009 10:01:04 AM >

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 222
RE: Battle Decision - 8/18/2009 9:50:53 AM   
herwin

 

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

The >2 to 1 measure rings true. Comparing main gun broadside weights of the two battle forces at Jutland, the British outgunned the Germans 2.3 to 1. When the Germans realized they were engaged with the full Grand Fleet they reversed course.



Of course! That's why Kurita broke off at Samar. Those 3 DD's and 3 DE's had his BB's, CA's, and DD's badly outnumbered in "points".

Herwin's idea is a good basis..., but the "fleet orders" and the "mission" and the "situation" and the "leadership" all need to play a role as well.


Remember fog of war. Each commander makes his judgement based on what he knows about.

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 223
RE: Battle Decision - 8/18/2009 10:02:43 AM   
EUBanana


Posts: 4552
Joined: 9/30/2003
From: Little England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Sure there are other factors, but having worked on the Jutland numbers a couple of weeks ago - and getting the 2.3 to 1 ratio - and then seeing herwin toss out a 2 to 1 general idea - it matched up too well with what I'd seen not to mention it ...



The precise ratio doesn't really mean anything much.

If it did the Brits would never have bothered trying to land on the Falklands in 1982 - a war in which in all rules of thumb and ratios were notably ignored.

And besides, as I said before - I don't really see this as different from what goes on. TFs are attempting to flee - they just can't, occasionally, flee in time.

_____________________________


(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 224
RE: Battle Decision - 8/18/2009 10:05:34 AM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

It didn't help that Scheer had his "T" crossed by Jellicoe, and the RN was firing at ships outlined by the sun while the British ships were hidden in the near darkness.

Last night I had a lone DD encounter a transport TF of 8 AK's escorted by a single CM.  The results were not good for the AI; 5 of the ships sunk, the other 4 left burning heavily, with 1200+ LCU losses.  The DD didn't get touched; oh, and this was in daylight.



Your DD encounter is not totally implausible. Another Scheer got between 5 and 8 ships out of a 37 ship convoy protected by the AMC Jervis Bay, though the battle started in daylight in ran into the evening.

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(in reply to John Lansford)
Post #: 225
RE: Battle Decision - 8/18/2009 10:07:07 AM   
EUBanana


Posts: 4552
Joined: 9/30/2003
From: Little England
Status: offline 		Here's an RL example of a convoy battle which went very badly for the convoy -

Brits :
2 CLs and 2 DDs

Italians :
2 CAs 10 DDs and 7 merchants. 

Result : no loss to the Brits, 7 merchants + 1 DD of the convoy sunk.

Radar was involved, and it was a night engagement, and it was in 1941.

_____________________________


(in reply to EUBanana)
Post #: 226
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/18/2009 12:12:36 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		As we all know, IRL, nothing is impossible, albeit improbable, in war.

< Message edited by m10bob -- 8/18/2009 12:18:50 PM >

_____________________________




(in reply to Rapunzel)
Post #: 227
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/18/2009 12:41:43 PM   
Mark Weston

 

Posts: 188
Joined: 2/5/2005
Status: offline 		What impresses me most about AE is that it genuinely tries to model behaviour at a ridiculous level of detail for a strategic/operatonal level sim, and mostly pulls it off without all those complex low-level interactions averaging out into wildly unhistorical results back at the high levels.  But there's a limit to what you can model.  Until it's possible to run an AI capable of role-playing Adm. Kurita and generating the expected range of actions for his personality in any particular situation, at some point you have to give up and just roll a die. 

(in reply to m10bob)
Post #: 228
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/18/2009 12:57:05 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Weston

What impresses me most about AE is that it genuinely tries to model behaviour at a ridiculous level of detail for a strategic/operatonal level sim, and mostly pulls it off without all those complex low-level interactions averaging out into wildly unhistorical results back at the high levels.  But there's a limit to what you can model.  Until it's possible to run an AI capable of role-playing Adm. Kurita and generating the expected range of actions for his personality in any particular situation, at some point you have to give up and just roll a die. 



Well said, but the breath of this AI smells more like saki and rice than the old AI..

_____________________________




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Post #: 229
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/18/2009 2:22:08 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rapunzel

Another onesided japanese victory. Both tf´s were surface tf´s.

Night Time Surface Combat, near Lunga at 114,138, Range 5,000 Yards

Allied aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft losses
No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
CA Chokai
CA Aoba, Shell hits 6
CA Kinugasa
CA Furutaka, Shell hits 5
CA Kako

Allied Ships
CA Astoria, Shell hits 23, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
CA Quincy, Shell hits 11, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
CA Vincennes, Shell hits 10, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
DD Wilson, Shell hits 8, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Dewey, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Hull, Shell hits 4, and is sunk



Reduced sighting due to 14% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions and 14% moonlight: 6,000 yards
Range closes to 29,000 yards...
Range closes to 23,000 yards...
Range closes to 17,000 yards...
Range closes to 11,000 yards...
Range closes to 5,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 5,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 5,000 yards
CA Aoba engages CA Vincennes at 5,000 yards
CA Furutaka engages CA Quincy at 5,000 yards
CA Astoria engages CA Furutaka at 5,000 yards
CA Aoba engages DD Hull at 5,000 yards
CA Aoba engages DD Dewey at 5,000 yards
CA Aoba engages DD Wilson at 5,000 yards
Range closes to 2,000 yards
CA Furutaka engages CA Vincennes at 2,000 yards
CA Quincy engages CA Furutaka at 2,000 yards
CA Kinugasa engages CA Astoria at 2,000 yards
CA Vincennes sunk by CA Aoba at 2,000 yards
DD Dewey sunk by CA Aoba at 2,000 yards
CA Aoba engages DD Wilson at 2,000 yards
Ehrlich, R.M. orders Allied TF to disengage
Range increases to 6,000 yards
CA Quincy engages CA Aoba at 6,000 yards
CA Quincy engages CA Furutaka at 6,000 yards
CA Kinugasa engages DD Hull at 6,000 yards
CA Aoba engages CA Quincy at 6,000 yards
Range closes to 5,000 yards
CA Kako engages CA Quincy at 5,000 yards
CA Astoria engages CA Aoba at 5,000 yards
CA Quincy sunk by CA Kinugasa at 5,000 yards
DD Wilson engages CA Aoba at 5,000 yards
CA Chokai engages CA Astoria at 5,000 yards
CA Astoria sunk by CA Furutaka at 5,000 yards
DD Wilson sunk by CA Chokai at 5,000 yards
Range increases to 6,000 yards
CA Kako engages DD Hull at 6,000 yards
Combat ends with last Allied ship sunk...

Ouch! Looks like the USN CAs found the ideal operational envelope of the Long Lance's here.

When playing allied SCTFs, I always find the 'pucker factor' of night engagements against the IJN to be very high, particularly around the 5,000-10,000 yard range. A sweet spot for the Long Lance, just barely within the envelope (or just out of range) for the American torps.

(in reply to Rapunzel)
Post #: 230
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/18/2009 2:37:33 PM   
herwin

 

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline 		Looks like the Battle of Savo Island.

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 231
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/18/2009 2:41:15 PM   
EUBanana


Posts: 4552
Joined: 9/30/2003
From: Little England
Status: offline 		Looks like over half were sunk while attempting to flee as well - so I really don't think the flee decision is  responsible for these wipeouts.  Its that getting away is hard. They ran, the Japs chased, and they died.

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Post #: 232
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/18/2009 3:09:19 PM   
John Lansford

 

Posts: 2662
Joined: 4/29/2002
Status: offline 		I've only seen one "Long lance torpedo attack" announced in my game so far, probably because I've not had but one or two pure surface to surface battles.  Even that one was inconclusive; Houston was hit and damaged but no one else was hit by the torpedoes.  I've had plenty of torpedoes fired at my ships by escorts, but very few have actually hit anything.  I'm hoping that continues!

(in reply to EUBanana)
Post #: 233
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/18/2009 11:36:21 PM   
Dili

 

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quote:

Brits :
2 CLs and 2 DDs

Italians :
2 CAs 10 DDs and 7 merchants.

Result : no loss to the Brits, 7 merchants + 1 DD of the convoy sunk.

Radar was involved, and it was a night engagement, and it was in 1941.


I know that one. It was with one of most incompetent Italian Admirals: Brivonesi. His escort was badly placed too far from convoy, and obviously they had no radar. But he wasn't the only at fault. Royal Navy(Italian) or Regiamarina doutrine was to avoid night combat so they didn't trained in it.

(in reply to John Lansford)
Post #: 234
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/19/2009 4:58:32 PM   
CEDeaton


Posts: 149
Joined: 4/16/2003
From: Plano, TX
Status: offline 		A strange battle here, to be sure. But what really struck me was that there was not a single hit by the much-ballyhooed Japanese LL torpedos despite 28 salvos having been fired. I'm sure part of the problem is that they loosed the first salvo at about 19000 yards (duh!), the next major round seemed to have occured between 10000 and 7000 yards (where one might reasonably expect some hits). Once disengagement began, there was another batch that seemed to go at about 14-17000 yards, again to no effect.

Ultimately, some carrier planes finished off CL Marblehead, DD Barker and DD Stewart, so it's impossible to get a complete picture of the training situation on those ships, but the Japanese surface combatants under RADM Takeo Takagi had an average Daytime Experience score of 70.6, where the surviving Allied ships Daytime Experience averaged 64.3.

All that having been said, the Allies scored no torpedo hits either and, in fact, took relatively few shots despite having five DD's in their force.

What level of training does it take to make a ship captian realize that firing torpedos 9.5 miles out - in daylight at speedy targets - is a BAD idea and a helluva' waste of (historically) fine torpedos?

Does it seem to anyone besides me that perhaps the torpedo part of surface combat was nerfed a bit too much?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Day Time Surface Combat, near Tandjoengselor at 70,94, Range 22,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CVL Ryujo, Shell hits 6, on fire
CVE Taiyo, Shell hits 9, heavy fires
CA Myoko, Shell hits 1
CA Haguro, Shell hits 3
CA Nachi
DD Kuroshio, Shell hits 1
DD Oyashio, Shell hits 2, heavy fires
DD Hatsukaze, Shell hits 3
DD Natsushio, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Hayashio
DD Amatsukaze

Allied Ships
CL Marblehead, Shell hits 16, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Barker, Shell hits 10, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Bulmer
DD Paul Jones
DD Parrott, Shell hits 1
DD Stewart, Shell hits 1, heavy fires



Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions: 30,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 22,000 yards
Allies open fire on surprised Japanese ships at 22,000 yards
CL Marblehead fires at CVL Ryujo at 22,000 yards
CL Marblehead fires at CVE Taiyo at 22,000 yards
Range closes to 19,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages CVL Ryujo at 19,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages CVE Taiyo at 19,000 yards
CA Nachi engages CL Marblehead at 19,000 yards
CA Haguro engages CL Marblehead at 19,000 yards
DD Oyashio engages DD Bulmer at 19,000 yards
DD Natsushio engages DD Barker at 19,000 yards
DD Natsushio engages DD Parrott at 19,000 yards
Range closes to 16,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages CVL Ryujo at 16,000 yards
DD Stewart engages DD Natsushio at 16,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages CA Nachi at 16,000 yards
CA Haguro engages CL Marblehead at 16,000 yards
DD Kuroshio engages DD Bulmer at 16,000 yards
DD Kuroshio engages DD Barker at 16,000 yards
DD Hayashio engages DD Parrott at 16,000 yards
DD Natsushio engages DD Bulmer at 16,000 yards
DD Hatsukaze engages DD Parrott at 16,000 yards
DD Oyashio engages DD Bulmer at 16,000 yards
DD Kuroshio engages DD Barker at 16,000 yards
Range closes to 12,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages CVL Ryujo at 12,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages CVE Taiyo at 12,000 yards
DD Parrott engages DD Oyashio at 12,000 yards
CA Haguro engages CL Marblehead at 12,000 yards
DD Bulmer engages DD Amatsukaze at 12,000 yards
DD Natsushio engages DD Parrott at 12,000 yards
DD Hatsukaze engages DD Barker at 12,000 yards
DD Kuroshio engages DD Barker at 12,000 yards
Range closes to 10,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages CVL Ryujo at 10,000 yards
CA Nachi engages CL Marblehead at 10,000 yards
CA Haguro engages CL Marblehead at 10,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages CA Myoko at 10,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages DD Barker at 10,000 yards
DD Natsushio engages DD Parrott at 10,000 yards
DD Hatsukaze engages DD Bulmer at 10,000 yards
DD Bulmer engages DD Oyashio at 10,000 yards
DD Kuroshio engages DD Parrott at 10,000 yards
Range closes to 7,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages CVL Ryujo at 7,000 yards
DD Stewart engages DD Hatsukaze at 7,000 yards
DD Hatsukaze engages DD Parrott at 7,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages DD Paul Jones at 7,000 yards
CA Myoko engages CL Marblehead at 7,000 yards
DD Barker engages DD Kuroshio at 7,000 yards
DD Barker engages DD Hayashio at 7,000 yards
DD Hatsukaze engages DD Bulmer at 7,000 yards
DD Barker engages DD Oyashio at 7,000 yards
DD Kuroshio engages DD Bulmer at 7,000 yards
Range closes to 6,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages CVE Taiyo at 6,000 yards
DD Natsushio engages DD Parrott at 6,000 yards
CA Haguro engages CL Marblehead at 6,000 yards
DD Oyashio engages DD Bulmer at 6,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages DD Barker at 6,000 yards
DD Paul Jones engages DD Hayashio at 6,000 yards
DD Natsushio engages DD Barker at 6,000 yards
DD Hatsukaze engages DD Stewart at 6,000 yards
DD Barker engages DD Kuroshio at 6,000 yards
Range increases to 7,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages CVL Ryujo at 7,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages CVE Taiyo at 7,000 yards
DD Natsushio engages DD Parrott at 7,000 yards
CA Haguro engages CL Marblehead at 7,000 yards
DD Bulmer engages CA Myoko at 7,000 yards
DD Kuroshio engages DD Barker at 7,000 yards
DD Hayashio engages DD Parrott at 7,000 yards
DD Natsushio engages DD Parrott at 7,000 yards
DD Paul Jones engages DD Oyashio at 7,000 yards
DD Bulmer engages DD Kuroshio at 7,000 yards
Range increases to 10,000 yards
CVL Ryujo , CVE Taiyo screened from combat
- escorted by DD Natsushio , DD Hatsukaze
CA Myoko engages CL Marblehead at 10,000 yards
CA Haguro engages CL Marblehead at 10,000 yards
DD Kuroshio engages DD Parrott at 10,000 yards
DD Bulmer engages DD Amatsukaze at 10,000 yards
DD Oyashio engages DD Bulmer at 10,000 yards
DD Oyashio engages DD Barker at 10,000 yards
Range increases to 11,000 yards
DD Hatsukaze collides with CA Myoko at 70 , 94
CL Marblehead engages CVL Ryujo at 11,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages CVE Taiyo at 11,000 yards
DD Parrott engages DD Oyashio at 11,000 yards
CA Haguro engages CL Marblehead at 11,000 yards
DD Bulmer engages DD Kuroshio at 11,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages DD Paul Jones at 11,000 yards
DD Hayashio engages DD Stewart at 11,000 yards
DD Natsushio engages DD Paul Jones at 11,000 yards
DD Hatsukaze engages DD Bulmer at 11,000 yards
DD Oyashio engages DD Paul Jones at 11,000 yards
DD Bulmer engages DD Kuroshio at 11,000 yards
Range increases to 14,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages CVL Ryujo at 14,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages CVE Taiyo at 14,000 yards
DD Parrott engages DD Kuroshio at 14,000 yards
CA Haguro engages CL Marblehead at 14,000 yards
CA Myoko engages DD Bulmer at 14,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages DD Barker at 14,000 yards
DD Hayashio engages DD Paul Jones at 14,000 yards
DD Parrott engages DD Natsushio at 14,000 yards
DD Bulmer engages DD Oyashio at 14,000 yards
DD Kuroshio engages DD Bulmer at 14,000 yards
Dockery, L.R. orders Allied TF to disengage
Range increases to 17,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages CVE Taiyo at 17,000 yards
CA Nachi engages CL Marblehead at 17,000 yards
CA Haguro engages DD Paul Jones at 17,000 yards
CA Myoko engages CL Marblehead at 17,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages DD Barker at 17,000 yards
DD Natsushio engages DD Stewart at 17,000 yards
DD Oyashio engages DD Bulmer at 17,000 yards
DD Kuroshio engages DD Barker at 17,000 yards
Range increases to 20,000 yards
CVL Ryujo , CVE Taiyo screened from combat
- escorted by DD Hayashio
CA Nachi engages CL Marblehead at 20,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages CA Haguro at 20,000 yards
CA Myoko engages DD Parrott at 20,000 yards
DD Paul Jones engages DD Amatsukaze at 20,000 yards
DD Hatsukaze engages DD Stewart at 20,000 yards
DD Oyashio engages DD Barker at 20,000 yards
Range increases to 22,000 yards
CA Nachi engages CL Marblehead at 22,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages CA Haguro at 22,000 yards
CA Myoko engages CL Marblehead at 22,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages DD Amatsukaze at 22,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages DD Hayashio at 22,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages DD Hatsukaze at 22,000 yards
Range increases to 24,000 yards
CA Nachi engages CL Marblehead at 24,000 yards
CA Myoko engages DD Bulmer at 24,000 yards
Range increases to 26,000 yards
CVL Ryujo , CVE Taiyo screened from combat
- escorted by DD Hatsukaze , DD Oyashio
CL Marblehead engages CA Nachi at 26,000 yards
CA Nachi engages DD Stewart at 26,000 yards
CA Myoko engages DD Parrott at 26,000 yards
Range increases to 28,000 yards
CVL Ryujo , CVE Taiyo screened from combat
- escorted by DD Amatsukaze , DD Oyashio
CA Nachi engages CL Marblehead at 28,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages CA Haguro at 28,000 yards
CA Myoko engages DD Parrott at 28,000 yards
CA Haguro engages DD Bulmer at 28,000 yards
Range increases to 30,000 yards
CA Nachi engages CL Marblehead at 30,000 yards
CA Haguro engages DD Paul Jones at 30,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages CA Myoko at 30,000 yards
Task forces break off...

< Message edited by CraigDeaton -- 8/19/2009 5:01:27 PM >

_____________________________

Semper Fi,
Craig

It's always pilot error. Sometimes the idiot just doesn't know how to fly a broken aircraft.

(in reply to Dili)
Post #: 235
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/19/2009 5:19:51 PM   
EUBanana


Posts: 4552
Joined: 9/30/2003
From: Little England
Status: offline 		I think torpedoes only hit often at ranges under 5000 yards.

The problem the Japs face is that engagements like that happen at night, and they are inevitably surprised at night due to Allied radar, so their torpedoes are irrelevant, they get blown to crap due to surprise.  Indeed, the Allies like to fire well beyond visual range in these night engagements.

Torpedoes are only decisive I think when the target doesn't know it's being torpedoed.  Like in the Battle of the Java Sea.  And in WITP you'd often see "Japanese launch Long Lance attack!" on surprised Allies which, occasionally, would duplicate the Java Sea (ie, lots of surprised, toasted Allies).  But no more, because the Japs can't get surprise.

Actually even with surprise the Japs sometimes do quite well.

Japanese Ships
     CA Ashigara, Shell hits 2
     CA Suzuya, Shell hits 1
     CA Kumano, Shell hits 4
     CA Aoba
     CA Furutaka, Shell hits 4,  on fire
     CL Sendai, Shell hits 2
     DD Ayanami, Shell hits 1,  on fire
     DD Asagiri, Shell hits 1
     DD Yugiri, Shell hits 16,  heavy fires,  heavy damage
     DD Ushio
     E Hakaze
     E Akikaze

Allied Ships
     BB South Dakota, Shell hits 10
     CA Portland, Shell hits 3,  on fire
     CA San Francisco, Shell hits 2
     CA Australia, Shell hits 1
     CL Helena, Shell hits 5
     DD Fletcher, Shell hits 2,  on fire
     DD Gregory
     DD O'Bannon
     DD Swanson
     DD Buchanan, Shell hits 1,  on fire
     DD Bagley
     DD Ralph Talbot
     DD Conyngham
     DD Shaw, Shell hits 6, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

Improved night sighting under 85% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions and 85% moonlight: 12,000 yards
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 35,000 yards
Range closes to 29,000 yards...
Range closes to 23,000 yards...
Range closes to 17,000 yards...
Allies open fire on surprised Japanese ships at 17,000 yards
BB South Dakota fires at CA Kumano at 17,000 yards
CA Australia fires at CA Kumano at 17,000 yards
CA San Francisco fires at CA Kumano at 17,000 yards
CL Helena fires at CA Kumano at 17,000 yards
CA Portland fires at CL Sendai at 17,000 yards
DD Bagley fires at DD Yugiri at 17,000 yards
DD Buchanan fires at DD Yugiri at 17,000 yards
DD Swanson fires at DD Yugiri at 17,000 yards
CA San Francisco fires at E Hakaze at 17,000 yards
DD Gregory fires at DD Yugiri at 17,000 yards
Range closes to 12,000 yards
CL Sendai engages BB South Dakota at 12,000 yards
CA Australia engages CA Kumano at 12,000 yards
CA San Francisco engages CA Kumano at 12,000 yards
CA Kumano engages CA Portland at 12,000 yards
CA San Francisco engages CA Ashigara at 12,000 yards
CA Australia engages CL Sendai at 12,000 yards
DD Yugiri engages DD Conyngham at 12,000 yards
DD Asagiri engages DD Bagley at 12,000 yards
DD Yugiri engages DD Buchanan at 12,000 yards
DD Yugiri engages DD Swanson at 12,000 yards
CA Portland engages E Hakaze at 12,000 yards
DD Asagiri engages DD Fletcher at 12,000 yards
Range closes to 10,000 yards
CA Furutaka engages CA Australia at 10,000 yards
CL Sendai engages CA Australia at 10,000 yards
CA Furutaka engages CA San Francisco at 10,000 yards
CA Suzuya engages CL Helena at 10,000 yards
CL Helena engages CA Kumano at 10,000 yards
CL Sendai engages CA Portland at 10,000 yards
DD Ushio engages DD Buchanan at 10,000 yards
DD Ushio engages DD Bagley at 10,000 yards
DD Bagley engages DD Ayanami at 10,000 yards
CA San Francisco engages E Akikaze at 10,000 yards
DD O'Bannon engages DD Asagiri at 10,000 yards
DD Gregory engages DD Asagiri at 10,000 yards
Range closes to 6,000 yards
CL Helena engages CA Furutaka at 6,000 yards
CL Helena engages CA Aoba at 6,000 yards
CA San Francisco engages CA Kumano at 6,000 yards
CA Suzuya engages CL Helena at 6,000 yards
CL Helena engages CA Ashigara at 6,000 yards
CL Sendai engages CA Australia at 6,000 yards
DD Ushio engages DD Conyngham at 6,000 yards
DD Bagley engages DD Yugiri at 6,000 yards
DD Bagley engages DD Ushio at 6,000 yards
DD Fletcher engages DD Ayanami at 6,000 yards
CL Helena engages E Akikaze at 6,000 yards
CA Portland engages E Hakaze at 6,000 yards
DD Yugiri engages DD Fletcher at 6,000 yards
Range increases to 8,000 yards
CA Australia engages CA Aoba at 8,000 yards
CL Helena engages CA Kumano at 8,000 yards
CA Suzuya engages CL Helena at 8,000 yards
CL Sendai engages CL Helena at 8,000 yards
DD Yugiri engages DD Shaw at 8,000 yards
DD Conyngham engages DD Ushio at 8,000 yards
DD Swanson engages DD Yugiri at 8,000 yards
DD Asagiri engages DD Bagley at 8,000 yards
DD Yugiri engages DD Buchanan at 8,000 yards
CL Helena engages E Akikaze at 8,000 yards
DD Asagiri engages DD O'Bannon at 8,000 yards
DD Ayanami engages DD Gregory at 8,000 yards
DD Ayanami engages DD Fletcher at 8,000 yards
Range increases to 11,000 yards
CA Furutaka engages CA San Francisco at 11,000 yards
CA Suzuya engages CA Australia at 11,000 yards
CA Suzuya engages CA San Francisco at 11,000 yards
CA Portland engages CA Suzuya at 11,000 yards
CA Ashigara engages CL Helena at 11,000 yards
DD Ayanami engages DD Shaw at 11,000 yards
DD Yugiri engages DD Conyngham at 11,000 yards
DD Yugiri engages DD Buchanan at 11,000 yards
DD Yugiri engages DD Bagley at 11,000 yards
BB South Dakota engages E Akikaze at 11,000 yards
DD O'Bannon engages E Hakaze at 11,000 yards
DD Yugiri engages DD Gregory at 11,000 yards
Range increases to 12,000 yards
CA Furutaka engages CA Portland at 12,000 yards
CA Aoba engages CA Australia at 12,000 yards
CA Aoba engages CA San Francisco at 12,000 yards
CL Sendai engages CA Portland at 12,000 yards
CA Ashigara engages CA Portland at 12,000 yards
CL Sendai engages DD Shaw at 12,000 yards
DD Ayanami engages DD Conyngham at 12,000 yards
DD Fletcher engages DD Yugiri at 12,000 yards
DD Shaw engages DD Asagiri at 12,000 yards
DD Yugiri engages DD Buchanan at 12,000 yards
CA Portland engages E Akikaze at 12,000 yards
BB South Dakota engages E Hakaze at 12,000 yards
DD Yugiri engages DD Fletcher at 12,000 yards
Range increases to 13,000 yards
CA Portland engages CA Furutaka at 13,000 yards
CA Australia engages CA Aoba at 13,000 yards
CA Aoba engages CA San Francisco at 13,000 yards
CL Helena engages CA Suzuya at 13,000 yards
CA Ashigara engages CL Helena at 13,000 yards
DD Shaw engages E Akikaze at 13,000 yards
DD Ushio engages DD Shaw at 13,000 yards
DD Ralph Talbot engages DD Yugiri at 13,000 yards
DD Yugiri engages DD Bagley at 13,000 yards
DD Yugiri engages DD Buchanan at 13,000 yards
CA Portland engages E Akikaze at 13,000 yards
CA Portland engages E Hakaze at 13,000 yards
DD Ayanami engages DD Gregory at 13,000 yards
DD Asagiri engages DD Fletcher at 13,000 yards
Gatch, T. orders Allied TF to disengage
Range closes to 12,000 yards
CA Furutaka engages CA Portland at 12,000 yards
CA Aoba engages CL Helena at 12,000 yards
CA Ashigara engages CA San Francisco at 12,000 yards
CA Suzuya engages CA Portland at 12,000 yards
CL Helena engages CA Ashigara at 12,000 yards
DD Ushio engages DD Fletcher at 12,000 yards
DD Swanson engages DD Yugiri at 12,000 yards
DD Ushio engages DD Bagley at 12,000 yards
DD Ayanami engages DD Fletcher at 12,000 yards
CA Australia engages E Akikaze at 12,000 yards
CA Portland engages E Hakaze at 12,000 yards
DD Gregory engages DD Asagiri at 12,000 yards
Range closes to 9,000 yards
CA Aoba engages BB South Dakota at 9,000 yards
CA Aoba engages CA Australia at 9,000 yards
CA Kumano engages CA Portland at 9,000 yards
CA Suzuya engages CA Portland at 9,000 yards
CL Helena engages CL Sendai at 9,000 yards
CL Sendai engages CA Australia at 9,000 yards
DD Gregory engages DD Ushio at 9,000 yards
DD Asagiri engages DD Fletcher at 9,000 yards
DD Buchanan engages DD Ayanami at 9,000 yards
DD Swanson engages DD Yugiri at 9,000 yards
DD Asagiri engages DD O'Bannon at 9,000 yards
DD Fletcher engages DD Yugiri at 9,000 yards
Range increases to 12,000 yards
CA Kumano engages BB South Dakota at 12,000 yards
CA Aoba engages CA San Francisco at 12,000 yards
CA Ashigara engages CA San Francisco at 12,000 yards
CA Suzuya engages CA San Francisco at 12,000 yards
CL Helena engages CL Sendai at 12,000 yards
DD Ralph Talbot engages DD Yugiri at 12,000 yards
DD Ushio engages DD Bagley at 12,000 yards
DD Asagiri engages DD Buchanan at 12,000 yards
DD Ushio engages DD Swanson at 12,000 yards
DD O'Bannon engages DD Ushio at 12,000 yards
CL Helena engages E Hakaze at 12,000 yards
Range increases to 13,000 yards
BB South Dakota engages CL Sendai at 13,000 yards
CA San Francisco engages CA Aoba at 13,000 yards
CA San Francisco engages CA Kumano at 13,000 yards
CA Portland engages CA Furutaka at 13,000 yards
CA Ashigara engages CA Portland at 13,000 yards
CL Sendai engages CA San Francisco at 13,000 yards
DD Ushio engages DD Ralph Talbot at 13,000 yards
DD Fletcher engages DD Asagiri at 13,000 yards
DD Ayanami engages DD Swanson at 13,000 yards
DD Ayanami engages DD O'Bannon at 13,000 yards
DD Yugiri engages DD Gregory at 13,000 yards
DD Fletcher engages DD Asagiri at 13,000 yards
Range increases to 16,000 yards
CA Ashigara engages CA Australia at 16,000 yards
CA San Francisco engages CA Kumano at 16,000 yards
CA Portland engages CA Kumano at 16,000 yards
CA Ashigara engages CL Helena at 16,000 yards
CL Sendai engages CL Helena at 16,000 yards
DD Ushio engages DD Bagley at 16,000 yards
DD Yugiri engages DD Buchanan at 16,000 yards
DD Asagiri engages DD Buchanan at 16,000 yards
DD Ushio engages DD Swanson at 16,000 yards
DD O'Bannon engages DD Asagiri at 16,000 yards
DD Gregory engages DD Yugiri at 16,000 yards
Range increases to 19,000 yards
CA Furutaka engages CA Portland at 19,000 yards
CA Australia engages CL Sendai at 19,000 yards
CA Kumano engages CA Portland at 19,000 yards
CA Portland engages CA Suzuya at 19,000 yards
CA San Francisco engages CA Ashigara at 19,000 yards
CL Sendai engages CL Helena at 19,000 yards
CL Helena engages DD Yugiri at 19,000 yards
DD Ayanami engages DD Swanson at 19,000 yards
DD Asagiri engages DD O'Bannon at 19,000 yards
CA San Francisco engages E Hakaze at 19,000 yards
Range increases to 23,000 yards
BB South Dakota engages CA Furutaka at 23,000 yards
CA Aoba engages CA San Francisco at 23,000 yards
CA Suzuya engages CL Helena at 23,000 yards
CA Furutaka engages CL Helena at 23,000 yards
CA Suzuya engages DD Conyngham at 23,000 yards
CA Furutaka engages DD Ralph Talbot at 23,000 yards
CL Helena engages DD Yugiri at 23,000 yards
CL Helena engages DD Asagiri at 23,000 yards
CA Ashigara engages DD Swanson at 23,000 yards
CA Suzuya engages DD O'Bannon at 23,000 yards
CA Furutaka engages DD Gregory at 23,000 yards
Range increases to 28,000 yards
BB South Dakota engages CA Furutaka at 28,000 yards
CA Suzuya engages CA Australia at 28,000 yards
CA San Francisco engages CA Kumano at 28,000 yards
CA Suzuya engages CA Portland at 28,000 yards
CA Kumano engages CL Helena at 28,000 yards
CA Kumano engages DD Ralph Talbot at 28,000 yards
CA Aoba engages DD Bagley at 28,000 yards
CA Aoba engages DD Swanson at 28,000 yards
CA Furutaka engages DD O'Bannon at 28,000 yards
CA Aoba engages DD Fletcher at 28,000 yards
Range increases to 31,000 yards
BB South Dakota engages CA Aoba at 31,000 yards
CA Aoba engages CA Australia at 31,000 yards
CA Aoba engages CA Portland at 31,000 yards
CA Ashigara engages CL Helena at 31,000 yards
CA Kumano engages DD Conyngham at 31,000 yards
CA Furutaka engages DD Ralph Talbot at 31,000 yards
CA Furutaka engages DD O'Bannon at 31,000 yards
CA Kumano engages DD Fletcher at 31,000 yards
Range increases to 35,000 yards
Task forces break off...


I think given the dire starting setup the Japs did damn well to get a draw there.  But the "dire starting setup" happens every time due to Allied radar.

Having seen the radar thing in operation now in several surface engagements, I have to admit, I think the Allied radar effect in 1942 is much too good.



_____________________________


(in reply to CEDeaton)
Post #: 236
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/19/2009 5:29:17 PM   
HMS Resolution


Posts: 350
Joined: 1/10/2007
Status: offline 		Actually, the IJN typically did fire off the long lances at very long ranges; that was part of their doctrine.

_____________________________


(in reply to CEDeaton)
Post #: 237
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/19/2009 6:41:48 PM   
herwin

 

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline 		The RN got 50% hits at 600-1000 yds in simulated torpedo attacks by destroyers at night in peacetime.

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to CEDeaton)
Post #: 238
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/19/2009 7:08:02 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		Funny thing, but after I started new campaign vs IJ AIwith Beta Hotfix patch, surface combat seems lot more milder that in campaign I started when I got the game. Go figure...even my PT boats don't do much against AI IJN now. 

_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


(in reply to herwin)
Post #: 239
RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result - 8/19/2009 7:35:59 PM   
CEDeaton


Posts: 149
Joined: 4/16/2003
From: Plano, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HMS Resolution

Actually, the IJN typically did fire off the long lances at very long ranges; that was part of their doctrine.


This is true.

In this case, I think the real problem is that the algorithms used to resolve the combat might be allowing the Allied ships to maneuver to avoid the Long Lances in the early battles.

Historically, the Allies were unaware of the LL's 40K yard range and believed it to be about half of that and with a top speed of 42 knots instead of the actual 52. This was a clever bit of disinformation by the Japanese.

Combined with the LL's oxygen-based propulsion that left almost no telltale wake (except at night when all torpedos leave a trail of florescent sea organisms) , this led the Allies to the mistaken belief that the torpedo strikes they did take in the early days were a result of submarines operating in concert with surface ships. It wasn't until sometime in 1943 when one was captured that the true specs were understood.

Perhaps what is needed is a pre- 1943 capture and post-1943 capture version of the Long Lance that takes into account this additional "fog of war"element, similar to the advantage the Zeros enjoyed in the early going. Actually, now that we have to have torpedos available in HQ units in order to re-arm, it would be perfectly accurate if a LL advantage disappeared the first time one of those units was captured or destroyed by LCU combat. I wonder if the devs could sort out how to do that?

< Message edited by CraigDeaton -- 8/19/2009 7:46:25 PM >

_____________________________

Semper Fi,
Craig

It's always pilot error. Sometimes the idiot just doesn't know how to fly a broken aircraft.

(in reply to HMS Resolution)
Post #: 240
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