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Shooting down B-17s - 9/2/2009 7:21:56 PM   
TheTomDude


Posts: 372
Joined: 3/3/2006
From: Switzerland
Status: offline 		Is it possible for the Jap player to shoot down B-17? I'm 9 months in the game and my fighters (Oscars and Zeros) seem to be unable to shoot down B-17s. Although it seems the AI has some damaged bombers on let's say every 2nd raid I only managed to shoot down maybe 5 of them until now in 9 months. Is that accurate? The best I can get is having the bombers turn back without unloading their bomb load over my bases. But as I said it seems almost impossible for a CAP to down B-17s even if its 3:1. And B-17s are never escorted by allied fighters. Just curious if that's intended.
Post #: 1
RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/2/2009 7:30:06 PM   
51st Highland Div


Posts: 347
Joined: 7/23/2005
From: Glasgow,Scotland
Status: offline 		Maybe the firepower of the IJN and IJA aircraft makes it hard to shoot down B-17s ie in terms of firepower vs durability...remember reading on the web a few days ago re a IJN ace in a zero on the tail of an F4F firing away all guns blazing for seconds trying to down the allied plane...

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RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/2/2009 7:42:46 PM   
Puhis


Posts: 1737
Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheTomDude

Is it possible for the Jap player to shoot down B-17? I'm 9 months in the game and my fighters (Oscars and Zeros) seem to be unable to shoot down B-17s. Although it seems the AI has some damaged bombers on let's say every 2nd raid I only managed to shoot down maybe 5 of them until now in 9 months. Is that accurate? The best I can get is having the bombers turn back without unloading their bomb load over my bases. But as I said it seems almost impossible for a CAP to down B-17s even if its 3:1. And B-17s are never escorted by allied fighters. Just curious if that's intended.


Maybe bad luck? I've played 20 turns of grand campaing against AI now, and I've shot down 6 B-17D and 6 B-17E. I just loaded allied side and checked the losses.

BTW, one japanese float plane ace killed at least one B-17 when flying Pete. Although he did shot it down, he rammed it and survived... Later he shot down two more 4E bombers as a Rufe and Rex pilot. Can't remember his name...

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Post #: 3
RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/2/2009 7:43:18 PM   
Peter Fisla


Posts: 2503
Joined: 10/5/2001
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheTomDude

Is it possible for the Jap player to shoot down B-17? I'm 9 months in the game and my fighters (Oscars and Zeros) seem to be unable to shoot down B-17s. Although it seems the AI has some damaged bombers on let's say every 2nd raid I only managed to shoot down maybe 5 of them until now in 9 months. Is that accurate? The best I can get is having the bombers turn back without unloading their bomb load over my bases. But as I said it seems almost impossible for a CAP to down B-17s even if its 3:1. And B-17s are never escorted by allied fighters. Just curious if that's intended.


The zero is going to have hard time with B-17 (especially the early models) due to not enough ammo for cannon and B-17 being very strong build bomber. Oscar I is even worse than Zero in terms weapon loadout.

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Post #: 4
RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/2/2009 7:47:28 PM   
morganbj


Posts: 3634
Joined: 8/12/2007
From: Mosquito Bite, Texas
Status: offline 		I lost beaucoup B17's so far.  The Ds especially, the Es somewhat less so.

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Post #: 5
RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/2/2009 7:48:27 PM   
rominet


Posts: 523
Joined: 10/23/2007
From: Paris
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

BTW, one japanese float plane ace killed at least one B-17 when flying Pete. Although he did shot it down, he rammed it and survived... Later he shot down two more 4E bombers as a Rufe and Rex pilot. Can't remember his name...


Kiyomi Katsuki from the Chitose

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Post #: 6
RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/2/2009 7:51:38 PM   
Puhis


Posts: 1737
Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rominet

quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

BTW, one japanese float plane ace killed at least one B-17 when flying Pete. Although he did shot it down, he rammed it and survived... Later he shot down two more 4E bombers as a Rufe and Rex pilot. Can't remember his name...


Kiyomi Katsuki from the Chitose




Right!
http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/japan_katsuki.htm

< Message edited by Puhis -- 9/2/2009 7:52:34 PM >

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Post #: 7
RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/2/2009 7:56:10 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rominet

quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

BTW, one japanese float plane ace killed at least one B-17 when flying Pete. Although he did shot it down, he rammed it and survived... Later he shot down two more 4E bombers as a Rufe and Rex pilot. Can't remember his name...


Kiyomi Katsuki from the Chitose



Rammed it? With a Pete? THAT is some major-league cajones!


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Post #: 8
RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/2/2009 8:11:45 PM   
Puhis


Posts: 1737
Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball


quote:

ORIGINAL: rominet

quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

BTW, one japanese float plane ace killed at least one B-17 when flying Pete. Although he did shot it down, he rammed it and survived... Later he shot down two more 4E bombers as a Rufe and Rex pilot. Can't remember his name...


Kiyomi Katsuki from the Chitose



Rammed it? With a Pete? THAT is some major-league cajones!



On 4 October 1942, while flying combat air patrol over the fleet in his ‘Pete’, he spotted four enemy fighters and five B-17s. In order to prevent the bombers from hitting the seaplane carrier Nisshin, Katsuki dove on the leading B-17 (B-17E of the 72nd BS, flown by Lieutenant David C. Everitt Jr.) and commenced his attack. After completing his pass, he rammed the aircraft from below, tearing the right main wing and the vertical stabiliser off the bomber and damaging his own right wing. Together with his observer he baled out of his stricken aircraft and both were rescued by the destroyer Akisuki. The crew of the B-17 all perished.

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Post #: 9
RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/2/2009 8:34:19 PM   
pmelheck1

 

Posts: 610
Joined: 4/3/2003
From: Alabama
Status: offline 		Just go into the editor set the durability of the allied bombers to 1 and those pesky bombers will start dropping like flies!



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Post #: 10
RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/2/2009 8:36:20 PM   
SuluSea


Posts: 2358
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Why not? 1 bullet per B-17 sounds about right. Fits right in with the Emperors 6 months to Wade McCluskey training program and empty USN CVs.


I'd like to apologize to the folks that worked hard on this game for this remark. Obviously I still feel strongly about it but I should have constructed my comments in a more decent fashion. Sorry.

< Message edited by SuluSea -- 9/3/2009 2:21:46 AM >

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Post #: 11
RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/2/2009 8:43:27 PM   
rockmedic109

 

Posts: 2390
Joined: 5/17/2005
From: Citrus Heights, CA
Status: offline 		Oscars?  Didn't they have two 7.7mm machine guns?  Kinda anemic when hunting big game.  They wouldn't do more than piss off an elephant and the B-17 is bigger.

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Post #: 12
RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/2/2009 9:01:35 PM   
pmelheck1

 

Posts: 610
Joined: 4/3/2003
From: Alabama
Status: offline 		What year are you in?  I'm in mar of 42 and I have less then 70 B-17E's in the pacific.  I have used my bombers only once or twice then have to wait a couple of weeks for replacements and repairs.  Even the A24's I received in Australia ware wiped out in 2-3 days of fighting, never received a single replacement and were withdrawn with 1-2 planes in each squadron.  I've had to abandon Port Moresby it's only got 50 fights at the base with no replacements in the pool while the Japanese are sending 70 Zeros everyday doing sweeps with 1000 fights in the pool.  Isn't hard to figure out how that one's going to end.  Can't get ships to the port as the betties sink every thing within range wither it has fighter cap or not (in my current game betties have a 50-80% hit rate, 10 get through your going to loose 3-5 ships, and they always attack with torpedoes)

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Post #: 13
RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/2/2009 9:29:51 PM   
Puhis


Posts: 1737
Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rockmedic109

Oscars?  Didn't they have two 7.7mm machine guns?  Kinda anemic when hunting big game.  They wouldn't do more than piss off an elephant and the B-17 is bigger.


Ki-43-Ia was armed with 2 × 7.7 mm machine guns
Ki-43-Ib was armed with one 12.7 mm machine gun and one 7.7 mm machine gun
Ki-43-Ic was armed with 2 × 12.7 mm
Late war model Ki-43-IIIb was armed with two 20 mm cannons.

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Post #: 14
RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/2/2009 9:37:02 PM   
invernomuto


Posts: 986
Joined: 10/8/2004
From: Turin, Italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheTomDude

Is it possible for the Jap player to shoot down B-17? I'm 9 months in the game and my fighters (Oscars and Zeros) seem to be unable to shoot down B-17s. Although it seems the AI has some damaged bombers on let's say every 2nd raid I only managed to shoot down maybe 5 of them until now in 9 months. Is that accurate? The best I can get is having the bombers turn back without unloading their bomb load over my bases. But as I said it seems almost impossible for a CAP to down B-17s even if its 3:1. And B-17s are never escorted by allied fighters. Just curious if that's intended.



Oscar is quite useless against B-17, BUT sometimes a damaged B-17 is lost due to op losses. In my game the AI is using those beasts at extended range. If you can damage one or two bombers, even with the oscars, it's unlikely that they will get home safe.
Zeros are quite effective. I put them on CAP at 15.000 - 20.000 fts and I had some kills.

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Post #: 15
RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/2/2009 10:33:30 PM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		Scen 1

Aug 42

I have lost 18 B17E, 9 in A2A combat

I believe all have been killed by Nicks over PM.

I'm flying them at around 15k so as to get some hits, if I went higher I could minimize losses and effect.

But I only have 70ish effective B17's E & F models), they have just moved to 12 plane squadrons.

They probably use up more resources than they destroy but they are about the only offensive weapon available.


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Post #: 16
RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 12:11:38 AM   
Sheytan


Posts: 863
Joined: 11/28/2006
Status: offline 		I pulled the PI B17s back to the DEI, and they have done stellar work bombing ground targets allowing me to actually counterattack landings and retake objectives in the DEI. My A24s are in PM and in Rabaul running naval attack missions, escorted by the P40s that AUS gets. Only thing that can hit me at Rabaul is the Bettys currently and the P40s and P39s I have there are doing a good job protecting my convoys.

BTW I set the P39s to naval attack as well and they plastered a IJ convoy while set to attack at 100 feet. Nailing the convoy with bombs primarily.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mullk

What year are you in?  I'm in mar of 42 and I have less then 70 B-17E's in the pacific.  I have used my bombers only once or twice then have to wait a couple of weeks for replacements and repairs.  Even the A24's I received in Australia ware wiped out in 2-3 days of fighting, never received a single replacement and were withdrawn with 1-2 planes in each squadron.  I've had to abandon Port Moresby it's only got 50 fights at the base with no replacements in the pool while the Japanese are sending 70 Zeros everyday doing sweeps with 1000 fights in the pool.  Isn't hard to figure out how that one's going to end.  Can't get ships to the port as the betties sink every thing within range wither it has fighter cap or not (in my current game betties have a 50-80% hit rate, 10 get through your going to loose 3-5 ships, and they always attack with torpedoes)


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Post #: 17
RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 12:43:28 AM   
Brady


Posts: 10701
Joined: 10/25/2002
From: Oregon,USA
Status: offline
This screan from my Ai Test Game(IronMan scenario#10), shows they can be shot down, though I belave they were all friendly fire instances, I also use them with some regularity, though I take care to use them from the right sized airfields and rest them to minamise op losses.





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Post #: 18
RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 2:23:51 AM   
SuluSea


Posts: 2358
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

Why not? 1 bullet per B-17 sounds about right. Fits right in with the Emperors 6 months to Wade McCluskey training program and empty USN CVs.


I'd like to apologize to the folks that worked hard on this game for this remark. Obviously I still feel strongly about it but I should have constructed my comments in a more decent fashion. Sorry.


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Post #: 19
RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 2:34:09 AM   
Cribtop


Posts: 3890
Joined: 8/10/2008
From: Lone Star Nation
Status: offline 		It is hard to shoot them down, but IJNAF and IJAAF fighters weren't optimized as interceptors. Lack of firepower.

In AE, what is the best Japanese fighter for the interceptor/point defense role and when does it arrive?

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Post #: 20
RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 2:51:45 AM   
jomni


Posts: 2827
Joined: 11/19/2007
Status: offline 		I'm playing Japan and those B-17 are really pesky.
I just hope the damaged ones won't reach home and become an operational loss.
Because of Fog of War we can't confirm this in the stats right (unless I load the US side)?

With regerds to interceptors. I think the Japanese were seriously thinking about interceptors only when the home islands became thretened with strategic bombing. But then you will be facing the B-29!

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Post #: 21
RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 3:19:53 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mullk

What year are you in?  I'm in mar of 42 and I have less then 70 B-17E's in the pacific.  I have used my bombers only once or twice then have to wait a couple of weeks for replacements and repairs.  Even the A24's I received in Australia ware wiped out in 2-3 days of fighting, never received a single replacement and were withdrawn with 1-2 planes in each squadron.  I've had to abandon Port Moresby it's only got 50 fights at the base with no replacements in the pool while the Japanese are sending 70 Zeros everyday doing sweeps with 1000 fights in the pool.  Isn't hard to figure out how that one's going to end.  Can't get ships to the port as the betties sink every thing within range wither it has fighter cap or not (in my current game betties have a 50-80% hit rate, 10 get through your going to loose 3-5 ships, and they always attack with torpedoes)


Training makes a big difference. Throw 30 experience pilots into combat and they will likely get chewed up and spit out. On the other hand, hold back the new air units for a while and train the heck out of them and you will see better results.

It's tough to do in the early going, but while you will likely lose some places due to lack of airpower, you will have a back stop of trained pilots when you are able to draw the line.

Bill

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Post #: 22
RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 3:33:17 AM   
Gobstopper

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 8/13/2009
Status: offline 		Actually, in my current game, the B17E at one point was the leader in air-to-air losses.  I've just smacked a bunch of Buffalo, Hudson, and Hurricane though, so it's dropped back. 

The Nick does fairly well.  The Zero is ok if you have superior numbers.  You're never going to wipe out the incoming bombers on a given run though.  just slow attrition.

Even the nate though will cut down on the effectivness of the bombing runs (they won't kill any B17s though) and you have plenty of them to sprinkle around.

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Post #: 23
RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 4:41:03 AM   
morganbj


Posts: 3634
Joined: 8/12/2007
From: Mosquito Bite, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea


quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

Why not? 1 bullet per B-17 sounds about right. Fits right in with the Emperors 6 months to Wade McCluskey training program and empty USN CVs.


I'd like to apologize to the folks that worked hard on this game for this remark. Obviously I still feel strongly about it but I should have constructed my comments in a more decent fashion. Sorry.


I'm not in a position to accept the apology, but I don't think anybody should have been terribly offended by it. I found it to be a little humorous since I think I know what you meant.

It goes without saying that the devs have done a maganificent job with this game. It's wonderful, spectacular, perhaps the best ever. But, it's not perfect. (Damn close, though.) A simple, somewhat accurate remark shouldn't irritate anyone.

Now, let's go sink some Jap carriers.

Then .... let's nuke the Nipponese hoards into oblivion in '45!!!

(in reply to SuluSea)
Post #: 24
RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 5:00:16 AM   
sfbaytf

 

Posts: 1122
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline 		B-17's were not easy to shoot down. Well armored, self sealing tanks, 50 cals for self defense. Supercharged engines gave decent high altitude performance.

However they are not invincible. IMO:Nor are they that effective if you try using them conventionally.

Historically it took hundreds if not a thousand to achieve decent results as bombing accuracy left much to be desired.

By the time that's possible it will be superseded in the Pacific by the B-24 which has greater range. RANGE is a greater asset in the Pacific than Europe.

I put B-17's to good use...as naval search and ASW patrol craft.

IMO: Bombing with B-17's early on is a waste of time, unless you send them in at 100 feet, which is too gamey.

< Message edited by sfbaytf -- 9/3/2009 5:53:36 AM >

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Post #: 25
RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 5:45:56 AM   
jomni


Posts: 2827
Joined: 11/19/2007
Status: offline 		You're right. Come to think of it, B-17 strikes are hard to shoot down.  But they usually send only 3 to 5 and never hit a thing.

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Post #: 26
RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 6:49:56 AM   
pmelheck1

 

Posts: 610
Joined: 4/3/2003
From: Alabama
Status: offline 		From some of the accounts I've read the Japanese never really did develop a strategy for dealing with the heavy bombers.  They did loose their initial fear of them however.  I think it was probably left up to units or individual pilots to come up with their own tactics rather then a service strategy such as Germany developed.

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Post #: 27
RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 7:00:43 AM   
pmelheck1

 

Posts: 610
Joined: 4/3/2003
From: Alabama
Status: offline 		The problem I ran into with A-24's at Port Moresby was the Japanese took Lae and the next turn were flying 70-100 zero's out of it.  Even though the A-24's were escorted by P-40's they were both overwhelmed and wiped out.  Port Moresby was Rather small so I only had one A-24 and one P-40 squadron there at a time and rotated them out to try to keep numbers up and slow the advance south.


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Post #: 28
RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 7:20:11 AM   
Scott_USN

 

Posts: 715
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: Eagle River, Alaska USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rockmedic109

Oscars?  Didn't they have two 7.7mm machine guns?  Kinda anemic when hunting big game.  They wouldn't do more than piss off an elephant and the B-17 is bigger.



Sort of like shooting the Elephant with a .22 rifle.

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Post #: 29
RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 7:22:40 AM   
Scott_USN

 

Posts: 715
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: Eagle River, Alaska USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mullk

The problem I ran into with A-24's at Port Moresby was the Japanese took Lae and the next turn were flying 70-100 zero's out of it.  Even though the A-24's were escorted by P-40's they were both overwhelmed and wiped out.  Port Moresby was Rather small so I only had one A-24 and one P-40 squadron there at a time and rotated them out to try to keep numbers up and slow the advance south.



Yeah but those are dive bombers. I get the numbers confused also.

B-24 was the big badass bomber from hell.

Just fat ugly and strong :)


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Post #: 30
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