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RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 7:28:27 AM

oldman45

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I have had good luck with my 4E bombers flying them between 5k and 8k. Usually start off hitting airfields at night and slowly wearing the AI down. Once things get enough damage on the AF I switch to day and smash it. It took me a month bombing Singapore before I switch over to days. By then I have 8 squadrons in postition. They got thru

(in reply to Scott_USN)

Post #: 31

RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 7:45:35 AM

castor troy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheTomDude

Is it possible for the Jap player to shoot down B-17? I'm 9 months in the game and my fighters (Oscars and Zeros) seem to be unable to shoot down B-17s. Although it seems the AI has some damaged bombers on let's say every 2nd raid I only managed to shoot down maybe 5 of them until now in 9 months. Is that accurate? The best I can get is having the bombers turn back without unloading their bomb load over my bases. But as I said it seems almost impossible for a CAP to down B-17s even if its 3:1. And B-17s are never escorted by allied fighters. Just curious if that's intended.

The zero is going to have hard time with B-17 (especially the early models) due to not enough ammo for cannon and B-17 being very strong build bomber. Oscar I is even worse than Zero in terms weapon loadout.

but ammo isn�t calcualted in the game

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RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 7:50:38 AM

pmelheck1

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A-24 is the banshee an army version of the SBD.� The "A" designates it as an attack bomber or tactical bomber.� B-24 is a heavy bomber or strategic bomber.� Normally the "A" designated aircraft were intended for battlefield support of troops and tactical strikes but in actual use mission types flown between "A" and "B" type aircraft could become quite blurred.

< Message edited by mullk -- 9/3/2009 7:51:36 AM >

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Post #: 33

RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 8:45:11 AM

invernomuto

Posts: 986
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From: Turin, Italy
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

In AE, what is the best Japanese fighter for the interceptor/point defense role and when does it arrive?

Nick (4/42) and Tojo (great climb rate and good speed, but not so good firepower) IMHO.

The Zero is useful but you have to be on CAP at high altitude when bombers arrive...

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Post #: 34

RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 11:37:03 AM

TheTomDude

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quote:

ORIGINAL: invernomuto

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

In AE, what is the best Japanese fighter for the interceptor/point defense role and when does it arrive?

Nick (4/42) and Tojo (great climb rate and good speed, but not so good firepower) IMHO.

The Zero is useful but you have to be on CAP at high altitude when bombers arrive...

What's "high altitude" for you? My Zeros usually fly CAP between 20 and 25'000 ft. and can't down the B-17s.

The Nick is not available until the end of 42 if you play with "player defined upgrades" ON. There is no Jap Squadron that could use the Ki-45a version as I already wrote in an other thread. Dunno why this is and there is no explanation from the devs so far. So the Japs have virtually no plane until the end of 42 that is capabable to pose a threat to B-17s (with PDU on that is).

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Post #: 35

RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 12:38:17 PM

m10bob

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Saburo Sakai did not down his first encountered B 17. In fact he gives much time to the telling of that engagement, and relates being upset that after emptying all of his ammo, he last saw the B 17 trailing smoke, nothing else.

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Post #: 36

RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 12:54:35 PM

Puhis

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Many time japanese pilots misjudge the distance, because 4E bombers were so big. So they fired too far away and missed the plane.

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Post #: 37

RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 12:57:24 PM

m10bob

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

Many time japanese pilots misjudge the distance, because 4E bombers were so big. So they fired too far away and missed the plane.

This is exactly why that great and venerable Douglas B 19...."The wonder of aviation art", would have surely been invincible!

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Post #: 38

RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 1:23:07 PM

goran007

Posts: 143
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From: croatia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheTomDude

quote:

ORIGINAL: invernomuto

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

In AE, what is the best Japanese fighter for the interceptor/point defense role and when does it arrive?

Nick (4/42) and Tojo (great climb rate and good speed, but not so good firepower) IMHO.

The Zero is useful but you have to be on CAP at high altitude when bombers arrive...

What's "high altitude" for you? My Zeros usually fly CAP between 20 and 25'000 ft. and can't down the B-17s.

The Nick is not available until the end of 42 if you play with "player defined upgrades" ON. There is no Jap Squadron that could use the Ki-45a version as I already wrote in an other thread. Dunno why this is and there is no explanation from the devs so far. So the Japs have virtually no plane until the end of 42 that is capabable to pose a threat to B-17s (with PDU on that is).

Ki-45 KAIa, should be available from 04/1942.

following airgroups as stated before can be upgraded into it if PDU is on.
84 IF Chutai (12)
4 Sentai (36)
13 Sentai (42)
5 Sentai (30)

Ki-45 KAIa has gun value of 16 and max speed of 360, and should be the best plane for tackling 4 engine bombers in '42.
Think i saw that it will be available from 04/1942, but now i see that 12/1942 is also mentioned.
Could someone confirm when actually that plane comes to theatre and is it any good.

thx.

< Message edited by goran007 -- 9/3/2009 1:32:30 PM >

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Post #: 39

RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 1:36:01 PM

invernomuto

Posts: 986
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From: Turin, Italy
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheTomDude

quote:

ORIGINAL: invernomuto

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

In AE, what is the best Japanese fighter for the interceptor/point defense role and when does it arrive?

Nick (4/42) and Tojo (great climb rate and good speed, but not so good firepower) IMHO.

The Zero is useful but you have to be on CAP at high altitude when bombers arrive...

What's "high altitude" for you? My Zeros usually fly CAP between 20 and 25'000 ft. and can't down the B-17s.

The Nick is not available until the end of 42 if you play with "player defined upgrades" ON. There is no Jap Squadron that could use the Ki-45a version as I already wrote in an other thread. Dunno why this is and there is no explanation from the devs so far. So the Japs have virtually no plane until the end of 42 that is capabable to pose a threat to B-17s (with PDU on that is).

I use my Zeros at 20.000 fts. I play agains the AI, I have a total of 41 B-17D and 17 B-17E downed mostly to Air kills and ops. (EDIT: I am mid Feb 42.) As Japanese however, you should begin to think that you cannot truly stop those monsters, you will always lack firepower and good interceptors. You can damage them (and in AE they need a lot of time to repair), hope in ops losses and occasionally some air kills.
As for the nicks, I found at least 2 units in Japan that can upgrade to Ki-45 KAIa (avaliability from 5/54), 13th Sentai and 4th Sentai (they're nates), they should upgrade even with PDU OFF. A list of Air Squadron with upgrade paths wuould be very useful.
Bye

< Message edited by invernomuto -- 9/3/2009 1:45:02 PM >

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Post #: 40

RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 1:37:30 PM

invernomuto

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quote:

ORIGINAL: goran007

Could someone confirm when actually that plane comes to theatre and is it any good.

thx.

Ki-45 KAIa starts production in 5/42. As soon you have the planes in the pool, you can upgrade those squadrons.
In 12/42 arrives a squadron of Ki-45 KAIb as a reinforcement.

Bye

< Message edited by invernomuto -- 9/3/2009 1:40:37 PM >

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RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 1:40:13 PM

xj900uk

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Actually according to RL IJAAF doctrine, the Oscar was used as a standard interceptor for dealing with (early) B17 raids. However, feedback from the pilots showed that 2 x 7.7 mg's on the Oscar really wasn't getting them very far. That's why on the next model one of the 7.7 mg's was deliberately replaced with a heavier 12.7 mg.
They were still used as standard interceptors 1942-43 and no change was noticed...

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Post #: 42

RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 1:45:38 PM

Peter Fisla

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At the end of the war Japan had two excellent planes, example Ki-84 "Frank" which could easily match anything that allied had at the end of WW2. Ki-84 was designed to engage B-29s, P-51s, P-47s and Hellcats. It was an excellent fighter..unfortunately by the end of the war it was too little too late...not enough good pilots to fly the plane.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakajima_Ki-84

The Kawanishi N1K-J Shiden, was an excellent interceptor, could take a lot of punishment and excellent armament ( kind of Japanese Focke-Wulf FW-190). However same as with Ki-84, it too little too late,� not enough pilots. If I would be playing As Japan I would try to research these and put them in production as soon as possible though these planes arrive in around 1944.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawanishi_N1K

< Message edited by Peter Fisla -- 9/3/2009 2:01:09 PM >

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Post #: 43

RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 1:52:27 PM

xj900uk

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Agreed. In order to knock down a US 4E bomber you are going to need someting with 4 x 20mm cannon at least.
The Shiden was used a lot in home defence against 4E high altitude raids and was fairly successful against them, although was not that manoueverable and tended to suffer high losses against the escorting P51's (although there were a few exceptions). Also the Shiden was not a forgiving plane and non-combat losses amongst the fledgling Jap pilots were also very high

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Post #: 44

RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 1:54:33 PM

Peter Fisla

Posts: 2503
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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: xj900uk

Agreed.� In order to knock down a US 4E bomber you are going to need someting with 4 x 20mm cannon at least.
The Shiden was used a lot in home defence against 4E high altitude raids and was fairly successful against them, although�was not that manoueverable and tended to suffer high losses against the escorting P51's (although there were a few exceptions).� Also the Shiden was not a forgiving plane and non-combat losses amongst the fledgling Jap pilots were also very�high�

Agreed, so you provide Ki-84 as escort to Shiden and you are all set :)

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Post #: 45

RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 2:16:19 PM

TheTomDude

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quote:

ORIGINAL: invernomuto

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheTomDude

quote:

ORIGINAL: invernomuto

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

In AE, what is the best Japanese fighter for the interceptor/point defense role and when does it arrive?

Nick (4/42) and Tojo (great climb rate and good speed, but not so good firepower) IMHO.

The Zero is useful but you have to be on CAP at high altitude when bombers arrive...

What's "high altitude" for you? My Zeros usually fly CAP between 20 and 25'000 ft. and can't down the B-17s.

The Nick is not available until the end of 42 if you play with "player defined upgrades" ON. There is no Jap Squadron that could use the Ki-45a version as I already wrote in an other thread. Dunno why this is and there is no explanation from the devs so far. So the Japs have virtually no plane until the end of 42 that is capabable to pose a threat to B-17s (with PDU on that is).

I use my Zeros at 20.000 fts. I play agains the AI, I have a total of 41 B-17D and 17 B-17E downed mostly to Air kills and ops. (EDIT: I am mid Feb 42.) As Japanese however, you should begin to think that you cannot truly stop those monsters, you will always lack firepower and good interceptors. You can damage them (and in AE they need a lot of time to repair), hope in ops losses and occasionally some air kills.
As for the nicks, I found at least 2 units in Japan that can upgrade to Ki-45 KAIa (avaliability from 5/54), 13th Sentai and 4th Sentai (they're nates), they should upgrade even with PDU OFF. A list of Air Squadron with upgrade paths wuould be very useful.
Bye

Read my post again. The Ki-45 KAIa (a-version) is available from 05/42 BUT NO SQUADRONS upgrade to them when PDU is ON. Those sqdns. mentioned above (84th chutai, 4th and 5th and 13th sentai) are all upgrading to the Ki-45 KAIb,c or d version of that plane which are not available before the end of 42 and later. IF you play with PDU OFF I have been told those squadrons auto-upgrade to the a-version. But I was talking about PDU ON where there's no option to upgrade to the a-version. Why there's even a difference in PDU on and off, I don't know. And devs did not explain.

(in reply to invernomuto)

Post #: 46

RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 2:22:00 PM

invernomuto

Posts: 986
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From: Turin, Italy
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheTomDude

Read my post again. The Ki-45 KAIa (a-version) is available from 05/42 BUT NO SQUADRONS upgrade to them when PDU is ON. Those sqdns. mentioned above (84th chutai, 4th and 5th and 13th sentai) are all upgrading to the Ki-45 KAIb,c or d version of that plane which are not available before the end of 42 and later. IF you play with PDU OFF I have been told those squadrons auto-upgrade to the a-version. But I was talking about PDU ON where there's no option to upgrade to the a-version. Why there's even a difference in PDU on and off, I don't know. And devs did not explain.

That is not correct. I am playing with PDU on and I can upgrade to Ki-45 KAIa
Scenario 1, patch 1.083c, agains AI, PDU ON

Screen attached.

Attachment (1)

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RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 2:35:47 PM

Shark7

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In my allied side PBEM I'm finding that while my B-17s aren't being shot down, they're spending more time in maintainence than flying. I'm having to rest them 6 days for 1 day of attacks thus far...they are far less potent than in Vanilla.

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RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 2:55:18 PM

crsutton

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I have yet to see a bomber shoot down a fighter......Anyone?

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RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 2:59:16 PM

Q-Ball

Posts: 7336
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I have yet to see a bomber shoot down a fighter......Anyone?

Good question! Are the days of B-24 pilot aces over?

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RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 3:08:49 PM

stuman

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I am assuming that it was mainly ME 109s and FW 190s in their many variations that shot down so many Allied 4E bombers over Europe. How were those fighters generally configured ? Didn't , generally speaking, the 109 have 1 20mm cannon and the FW 2 ( along with 2 machine guns ) ? Or something like that ?

< Message edited by stuman -- 9/3/2009 4:40:37 PM >

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RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 3:17:01 PM

stuman

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I have yet to see a bomber shoot down a fighter......Anyone?

In playing the Allied AI in a GC ( its Dec 29 ). I have had a group of Oscars stationed in Miri knock down 2 B 17s , and lost 2 Oscars in the process. The AI had been sending 3 or 4 B 17s each time, and 6 or 7 Oscars maximum met them each time ( the Oscar pilots are in the high 70s experience with a good leader ). I never shot down B 17s over PI.

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RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 3:20:03 PM

Shark7

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quote:

ORIGINAL: stuman

I am assuming that it was mainly ME 109s and FW 190s in their many variations that shot down so many Allied 4E bombers over Europe. How were those fighters generally configured ? Didn't , generally speaking, the 109 have 1 20mm cannon and the FW 2 ( alonf with 2 machine guns ) ? Or something like that ?

Plus those aircraft were armored and got even more armor as the war progressed. They (the Bf-109E) also started with 2x20mm and 2x7.92mm, the Fw-190 A-8 was similar. AS the war progressed this was upped to 2x20mm and 2x13mm (in the Bf-109) and 2x30mm and 2x13mm in the FW-190.

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RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 3:21:14 PM

Kaletsch2007

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I had at least one confirmed kill of an B-17 over PI, by CLAUDE's !
And lost 2 OSCAR also against another raid of 3 B-17.

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RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 3:22:41 PM

Sheytan

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Yeppers, in the Guadalcanal scenario my opponent playing the allied side has shot down a few of my zeros capping Rabaul with his flying forts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I have yet to see a bomber shoot down a fighter......Anyone?

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Post #: 55

RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 3:31:27 PM

Mike Scholl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: stuman
I am assuming that it was mainly ME 109s and FW 190s in their many variations that shot down so many Allied 4E bombers over Europe. How were those fighters generally configured ? Didn't , generally speaking, the 109 have 1 20mm cannon and the FW 2 ( alonf with 2 machine guns ) ? Or something like that ?

German fighters were better armed and better armored that the Japanese fighters. But more importantly, they had a MUCH LONGER "window of engagement" that the Japanese could ever hope for. Allied bombers had to fly for hours over German-occupied Europe just to reach their targets..., and hours more to return to their bases.

In the Pacific this was rarely the case. Even when B-29's were bombing Japan from the Marianas, 90% of the trip was over neutral ocean. So any comparison of bomber actions must also keep this fact in mind. In Europe the "engagement" would last for 6-12 hours..., in the Pacific more like 10-20 minutes. And even with these advantages, the Germans failed to turn back even one single bomber raid!

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RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 3:49:21 PM

Puhis

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

German fighters were better armed and better armored that the Japanese fighters. But more importantly, they had a MUCH LONGER "window of engagement" that the Japanese could ever hope for. Allied bombers had to fly for hours over German-occupied Europe just to reach their targets..., and hours more to return to their bases.

In the Pacific this was rarely the case. Even when B-29's were bombing Japan from the Marianas, 90% of the trip was over neutral ocean. So any comparison of bomber actions must also keep this fact in mind. In Europe the "engagement" would last for 6-12 hours..., in the Pacific more like 10-20 minutes. And even with these advantages, the Germans failed to turn back even one single bomber raid!

Hours? Not really. Europe is small compared to Pacific. For example distance from west coast of Nederland to Ruhr area is no more than 250 km. Cruise speed of B-17 is something like 320-330 km/h. Not even an hour to get Ruhr. Berlin is about 500 km from west coast of Nederland, so it takes about one and half hour.

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RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 3:56:43 PM

Puhis

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I think german fighters had one disadvantage compared to japanese, and that is range. Both Bf-109 and FW-190 had a range about 1000 km or less. Zero's max range was 3000 km, and both Frank and George had a range over 2000 km.

< Message edited by Puhis -- 9/3/2009 4:00:14 PM >

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Post #: 58

RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 4:01:43 PM

RevRick

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mullk

What year are you in?� I'm in mar of 42 and I have less then 70 B-17E's in the pacific.� I have used my bombers only once or twice then have to wait a couple of weeks for replacements and repairs.� Even the A24's I received in Australia ware wiped out in 2-3 days of fighting, never received a single replacement and were withdrawn with 1-2 planes in each squadron.� I've had to abandon Port Moresby it's only got 50 fights at the base with no replacements in the pool while the Japanese are sending 70 Zeros everyday doing sweeps with 1000 fights in the pool.� Isn't hard to figure out how that one's going to end.� Can't get ships to the port as the betties sink every thing within range wither it has fighter cap or not (in my current game betties have a 50-80% hit rate, 10 get through your going to loose 3-5 ships, and they always attack with torpedoes)

I'm playing the Guadalcanal scenario, and I am have a 40% loss rate in supply and reinforcement shipping to Port Morseby and Milne Bay. The Betty's are chewing up the shipping with in harbor use of torpedoes, even against docked TFs, and the Zero's are eating up everything for CAP. I am barely able to keep two squadrons of fighters at 75% at PM by rotating them, and only building up one squadron at Townsville at a time. And this is the teleported Nikmod from what I understand.

I am having to fly supplies to Milne Bay because out of a three AK 14Kton TF, with ASW support, and LRCAP when within range and while in port, only 500 tons made it to the beach. Betty's are flying every day out of Kavieng with torpedoes loaded for bear, and getting unbelievable results, i.e., 10 Betty's unescorted against 50% each of a P-39D and a Kittyhawk 1A squadron get 6 torpedo hits when flying into a radar covered zone.

Gentlemen, something just seems a tad amiss in the results.

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Post #: 59

RE: Shooting down B-17s - 9/3/2009 4:05:52 PM

Mike Scholl

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From: Kansas City, MO
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

I think german fighters had one disadvantage compared to japanese, and that is range. Both Bf-109 and FW-190 had a range about 1000 km or less. Zero's max range was 3000 km, and both Frank and George had a range over 2000 km.

Not a real problem. German fighters could follow the bomber stream until low on fuel or ammo, drop down to a friendly base for replenishment, and re-join the fray several times. The Japs got one shot..., period! Also, a German pilot who bailed out would land in friendly occupied territory. If the Japs pursued the bombers at any distance, they were shark bait if they got into trouble.

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