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Air Force support. - 9/8/2009 2:26:11 PM   
pawelwj

 

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I've been reading "D-Day" by Anthony Beavor, and one aspect of fighting which had quite an impact on events is the Allied use of Air power in close support, harasment, and heavy and medium bombing raids in preparation to an offensive. JTCS does have support for a close air support, but harasment or heavy bombing is not possible. Anyone though about expanding JTCS to allows at least the heavy bombing raids?
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RE: Air Force support. - 9/9/2009 1:39:20 AM   
V22 Osprey


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Well, think of the game scale.Heavy bombing raids are usually a long time before the actually invasion.Look at D-Day, when the troops landed, the craters were already there from the earlier bombing raids.By the time the battle(and scenario) starts, heavy bombing should be over.Otherwise you are asking for friendly fire.

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RE: Air Force support. - 9/9/2009 10:03:47 AM   
pawelwj

 

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Of course for a smaller scenarios that is true, but the game allows for a quite a large scenarios as well (Hell's Highway, Decision Day (All of D-Day) to name two massive ones). Those large historical are the ones I'm quite partial to. Of course you can assume the start of a game to be after the initial bombing, however if an individual air support attack is possible then a heavy bombing raid should be as well. I think it might give the game an added level of realism and unpredicatibility if it is possible.

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RE: Air Force support. - 9/9/2009 10:50:18 AM   
MrRoadrunner


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I agree with V22 Osprey. Air power has always been abstracted because of the game scale and the fact that it is a tactical "land combat" game.
Heavy bombing? I hope not.
Super large scenarios? The thought is nice and I am sure some like to play them but, they are totally out of the scale of the game?
Air, sea, and supply have all been abstracted to enhance playability based on the game's scale.

I'm not a big fan of the supersized scenarios.

Mr RR

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RE: Air Force support. - 9/9/2009 12:11:59 PM   
Geomitrak


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pawelj
I've been reading "D-Day" by Anthony Beavor,


Got that sitting on my bookshelf awaiting its turn.

Regards

Paul

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RE: Air Force support. - 9/9/2009 5:50:29 PM   
countblue


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I am a fan of supersized scenarios. Gimme 300 turns and a German Panzerkorps vs. a russian Guards Army.... and forget me for about 2 weeks, I loooove it.



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RE: Air Force support. - 9/10/2009 12:12:31 AM   
mheard

 

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I am a fan of the large scale scenarios and would like to see features in the game that would better serve these.

I appreciate OspreyV22's point about scale but there is no reason why JTCS couldn't support a concertina in terms of scale. In certain respects the game is not the best to represent small unit actions because the unit sizes are too big individually and terrain graphics are perhaps samey and 'bland'.

I wouldn't mind seeing a more expanded view to see say urban fighting in more detail.

As regards aircraft. What would work (I hope) is the use of aircraft in a way that indirect artillery by the map works. The scenario design marks hex boundaries for a medium/heavy bomber raid to take place over turns n +n. Then the aircraft attacks all enermy units in that hex. Factors such as drift and missing the target hex could be put in as well.

Fighter bombers could be set to patrol an area on the map and will pick out targets at random or if possible by a player defined set of priorities. The aircraft would then leave the map once their ammunition is exhausted.

Just a few thoughts... any comments?


Martin Heard

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RE: Air Force support. - 9/10/2009 12:29:53 AM   
V22 Osprey


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Well, the thing is that on 90% of scenarios it would be useless.Maybe on larger scenarios yes, but how many scenarios you know that are that big that it would require a modeling of heavy bombing?The only one that comes to my mind is the Gigantic "OVERLORD" scenario.Heavy bombing is represented in SPWAW, but thats only in maybe 2% of scenarios, and even in those scenarios it was particularly unrealistic and gamey.It was basically used for suppressing a crap load of infantry fast, often with the blast radius so terrible that there was a very high possibility of hitting your own troops.I remember one scenario on Spanish Civil War in SPWAW, all I had to do was call in a bunch of heavy bombing strike to literally decimate the infantry, then the enemy was a push over.No fun.

However, it may work in JTCS because it is at a higher scale.However, adding this could open a whole new can of worms and bugs, so in the end it may not be worth it, though that's for me to decide.

< Message edited by V22 Osprey -- 9/10/2009 12:31:25 AM >


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RE: Air Force support. - 9/10/2009 2:40:30 AM   
junk2drive


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I agree with V22. You get to a certain point, especially in PBEM, where the tactics and planning get thrown out in favour of arcade style blasting.

That's why there are no big nukes to end the game at bedtime.

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RE: Air Force support. - 9/10/2009 10:21:11 AM   
MrRoadrunner


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Please remember that 300 turns is 30 hours of real time?
Where is night and day? Where is rest and resupply?

You want carpet bombing in a land based tactical wargame?
Does that mean wing tip to wing tip of bombers unloading in every hex as they fly by? Does that mean 10 turns of doing nothing as you try to keep your troops out of harms way by not moving them forward to get hit?

I think that larger scenarios become more abstract/gamey than simulation.
It's my personal belief. I just think there is much more potential designing scenarios for, and playing into, the strengths of the game system's current scale.
Altering to be what it is not will only dilute it. IMHO.

I also think if you want to play the game, as a game, then go for it. Just do not push for changes that will take the game away from it's current scale.

RR

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RE: Air Force support. & game user wishlists - 9/11/2009 2:39:37 PM   
mheard

 

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Hi OspreyV22,

Operation Cobra and Monte Cassino come to mind for heavy bombers in direct support of ground forces.

What I would like to see is the facility to have aircraft target an area which is not in line of sight and all units in the targeted hexes are attacked. The targets would also inlcude bridges & buildings and roads (cratering). These were the common tasks of the medium bomber Poland 1939 onwards.

You mention 'can of worms' presumably referring to program changes that might impact elsewhere. Having worked in IT for 20 years I know exactly what you mean. Are you in fact one of the programmers for JTCS and are working on V1.05 and Modern Wars?

Showing my ignorance but what is SPWAW?

You have seen my other postings...

I would like to get a more centralised list of the JTCS community's wishes and wants for the game. Jason Petho has initiated the requested untis postings but we don't have a single point of focus for all the ideas for changes and improvements. It would be great then to have feedback on on the ideas as to feasiblity and impact. The aircraft as mentioned above is a case in point. Can the developers let us know what is involved to make the changes and additions?

Also do you think it is reasonable for future version upgrades to be chargeable?

What do you and others think?


Martin Heard

(in reply to V22 Osprey)
Post #: 11
RE: Air Force support. & game user wishlists - 9/11/2009 3:52:05 PM   
Jason Petho


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mheard
I would like to get a more centralised list of the JTCS community's wishes and wants for the game.



Tada!

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1545815

Jason Petho



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RE: Air Force support. & game user wishlists - 9/11/2009 4:12:46 PM   
marcbarker


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Martin, hmmmmmgood questions...I posted some of those same things over a year ago....and really ticked people off....there were changes in the game to sarisfy the few and not the many and those changes did turn some of the gamers off the series. Turned me off for a very long time. Some of the questions was the 1.05 update that was in late 2007- early 2008 and it was stated 2-3 years...modern wars took priority and then the CS game was hamstrung by encryption of files that were open source for a long time. This hindered some very bright people to go to other games and do mods there. I check back on the forums eveery so often just to see when the 1.05 update is. I just kept the 1.03 and added the armies I wanted married RS East Front and West Front. It was a task But one engine and one file structure. Modified some of the scenarios to be able to read the New OOB's etc. It was funn doing this but then I am just one user

Marc

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RE: Air Force support. & game user wishlists - 9/11/2009 4:38:50 PM   
Jason Petho


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quote:

ORIGINAL: barker

Some of the questions was the 1.05 update that was in late 2007- early 2008 and it was stated 2-3 years...modern wars took




Can you explain what you mean?

I am unclear, considering 1.05 isn't scheduled for release until next year and 1.04 was released September 2008.

Jason Petho


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RE: Air Force support. & game user wishlists - 9/11/2009 7:54:58 PM   
MrRoadrunner


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Hi Martin,

I would like to see a lot of things that could improve the game.
Just remember the scale of the game and how the units relate to each other?

Carpet bombing was used but not in the tactical arena. The troopers used to advance into the "carpet bombed" area were kept way back to avoid collateral damage.

And, why would you want to be able to have ground attacks in areas that you cannot see?

RR

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RE: Air Force support. & game user wishlists - 9/12/2009 3:08:52 AM   
V22 Osprey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mheard

Hi OspreyV22,

Operation Cobra and Monte Cassino come to mind for heavy bombers in direct support of ground forces.

What I would like to see is the facility to have aircraft target an area which is not in line of sight and all units in the targeted hexes are attacked. The targets would also inlcude bridges & buildings and roads (cratering). These were the common tasks of the medium bomber Poland 1939 onwards.

You mention 'can of worms' presumably referring to program changes that might impact elsewhere. Having worked in IT for 20 years I know exactly what you mean. Are you in fact one of the programmers for JTCS and are working on V1.05 and Modern Wars?

Showing my ignorance but what is SPWAW?

You have seen my other postings...

I would like to get a more centralised list of the JTCS community's wishes and wants for the game. Jason Petho has initiated the requested untis postings but we don't have a single point of focus for all the ideas for changes and improvements. It would be great then to have feedback on on the ideas as to feasiblity and impact. The aircraft as mentioned above is a case in point. Can the developers let us know what is involved to make the changes and additions?

Also do you think it is reasonable for future version upgrades to be chargeable?

What do you and others think?


Martin Heard


Good Point about Cobra and Cassino.But like I said before, I don't think it would benefit the game the much.

No, I'm not one of the programmers(Though I've dabbled with some programming), I was just pointing out that this open a whole mess of other things.Let's say they add the feature.Now they have to model units getting bombed, new values on damage, not to mention of course that there will be no guarantee the feature will work perfectly if they put it in there, and thus more bug reports.The game does not need more bugs, just makes the developer's work harder.

Oh sorry about the acronyms.SPWAW is Steel Panthers: World at War a free game here at Matrix.

< Message edited by V22 Osprey -- 9/12/2009 3:12:00 AM >


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RE: Air Force support. & game user wishlists - 9/12/2009 2:30:19 PM   
MrRoadrunner


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Wouldn't it be easier for the game developers to make "bomb cratered" hexes that can reflect carpet bombing and include it for scenario designers to use. From everything I read the most annoying effect of carpet bombing was to create craters that effected movement and provided limited cover for infantry.

In light of the abstracting of air combat, I don't think the game's scale "fits" for including carpet bombing as a feature for players to use. It's more a strategic or grand tactical thing and better suited for games like TOAW?

RR

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RE: Air Force support. & game user wishlists - 9/14/2009 11:32:32 AM   
baltjes

 

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I am a grat fan of large (superlarge!) scenario's. I fact I have created some and released them on the wargamer's website (Overlord, Operation Market Garden, Hell's Highway, Hollow Victory I and II, Fortress Holland, Grebbeberg 1940). And every time I learned more on how to make use of the possibilities the game offers.

Especially on the present subject: air support
Heavy bombing executed during gameplay is impossible but it can be simulated very easily by creating rubble-hexes in existing city hexes. This will disable all traffic but foot movement and gives (infantry)units an extra defense bonus! If you want to have an non-built area (e.g. a forrest or even clear terrain) been completely ploughed, you might consider to create cityhexes in the map-editor and change them into rubble with the scenario editor. If you want to simulate a large area with destroyed vehicles (e.g. Falaise pocket), just use wrecks (with the scenario editor).

An other feature referred to in this forum with respect to gamelength is length of a gameturn and how to deal with night and day when the scenario covers multiple days. This is default 6 minutes in the JTCS/MCS game system. For huge scenario's like OVELORD (let's restrict to that because that is the one mostly referred to) this is of course purely nonsense! It is impossible for soldiers to run 1 km per turn for 1250 turns! (or even more when 'on the dubble'). Therefore:

At first:
In OVERLORD, the length of a gameturn is about 20 minutes real time. Soldiers have to be resupplied, must rest and above all isn't most of a soldiers time spend by waiting?; waiting for transport, waiting for orders, waiting for......

At second:
Night hours are kept outside consideration. EXEPT when they are relevant! (e.g. the airdrops in OVERLORD). Otherwise most of them are simply skipped (but 2 turns in OVERLORD).

AT third:
It is very easy to change visibility DURING the game!! This enables the easy use of day and night turns and even dusk/dawn turns! You just have to change the .btl file; the latest digit in the 4th line of that file represents the visibility (this is '18' in OVERLORD). You can change that in '1' for night turns and e.g. '6' for dusk and dawn. (Just open the .btl file with noteblock although any wordprocessor will do).

the .btl file reads:
10
OVERLORD
0 0 0 7500
0 0 0 0 18


Night turns are: 1 -15, 65 -67, 116 - 117, 166 - 167, 216 - 217, ............., 1216 - 1217 (last day's turn + 50!)
Dawn turns are: 16 - 19, 68 -69, 118 - 119,........., 1218 - 1219.
Dusk turns are: 63 - 64, 113 - 114, ..........., 1213 - 1214.

If anyone can let me now how to add an EXCEL-file to a message like this, I am quite willing to put the time table of OVERLORD on this forum.

Hajo Baltjes

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RE: Air Force support. & game user wishlists - 9/14/2009 5:03:18 PM   
countblue


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Hats off to all who admit addiction to large and even superlarge scenarios, thanks to you I can see that I am not the only maniac.
Also:
Thanx baltjes for some great insights (at third!!) didnt know that I could do that in the game just by an edit of the .btl file.
Great solution for me.

This game and the great support from all of you keeps me going forever.
CB


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RE: Air Force support. & game user wishlists - 9/15/2009 1:26:14 PM   
mheard

 

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quote:

there were changes in the game to sarisfy the few and not the many and those changes did turn some of the gamers off the series. Turned me off for a very long time


Hi there barker,

Could you expand on what you mean here?

I stopped playing about early 2001 until recently because I didn't have the spare time (job) . However, I felt that the game wasn't being developed to improve and that Divided Ground was a poor product. I got very frustrated with the AI especially in longer and more complicated scenarios. (Why or why did it use all its smoke quota in the first few turns...?) JTCS V1.04 is a great improvement except that the AI/HAL still doesn't cut the mustard which means there are (IMHO) too many Human versus Human scenarios...

Having said that, to get changes and improvements we gamers have to be positive and constructive with our wishlist(s) and suggestions.

My and other suggestions about air bombing seem to have started a debate about the scale of the game. I'm pretty sure that not everyone will agree about this scale and scope whether in the physical sense (extent of the of battle area, number of units and so forth) and time scales. JTCS is a tactical level game and not a strategic one. That much I am certain on. I suppose the context is that JTCS is not the game to fight the entire Battle of Kursk but just about covers the whole of Market Garden perhaps.

Back to the aircraft and bombing debate.

Large-scale bombing raids in support of ground forces would not be an option in the sense that these were planned several days in advance and therefore are out of time 'scope'. BUT this doesn't discount the simulation of say Cobra or Cassino to take place in the scenario design at the beginning or near start of the game. Whilst the bombing takes place over say, 2-3+ turns, the player on the receiving end would have time to move units and adjust AAA. The damage caused to units and terrain would be calculated at that point rather than pre-determined in the scenario map.

In the main I would like to see the capabilities of bomber aircraft to target specific geographic features such as bridges and buildings as did happen tactically.

The new aircraft units and the ability to use them directly gets some way to this end. However, I would like to see (1) Aircraft to fly directly over enemy held hexes (2) some concept of flying height so that LOS is as an aircaft would see terrain (3) damage to buildings, bridges, roads, etc by bombing and artlillery. (4) camouflage option for units set at scenario level which would increase the concealment value of a unit by a factor of X depending on the terrain in which they are placed.

Just some thoughts.....

Martin

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RE: Air Force support. & game user wishlists - 9/15/2009 8:13:25 PM   
MrRoadrunner


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mheard
My and other suggestions about air bombing seem to have started a debate about the scale of the game. I'm pretty sure that not everyone will agree about this scale and scope whether in the physical sense (extent of the of battle area, number of units and so forth) and time scales. JTCS is a tactical level game and not a strategic one. That much I am certain on. I suppose the context is that JTCS is not the game to fight the entire Battle of Kursk but just about covers the whole of Market Garden perhaps.


I somewhat agree and also beg to differ. I'd like clarity over suggestion.
What everyone should agree upon is the scale of the game?
From the very creation of the game series the manual states:

"What is the game scale?
A. The game scale is six minutes per turn and 250 meters per hex. Each Strength Point (SP) of an infantry platoon represents a half squad (thus, 6 SPs represent a platoon of three squads). Each SP of a Machine Gun platoon represents one MG “team” (and, thus, one MG); each SP of a gun (i.e., gun, mortar, or howitzer) battery represents one gun and its attendant crew; each SP of a vehicular platoon (regardless of type) represents one vehicle and its crew. Crews and guns are considered the same units for game play purposes"

From the game disk/folder help section:

Parameter Data

Minutes per Turn: 6
Meters per Hex: 250

Maximum Units per Hex: 6 Maximum Strength Points per Hex:24
Maximum Strength Points per Road: 12 (more than this number of SPs in the hex negates any road/railroad/path in the hex)

Minimum Non-Wreck Strength Points per Hex that Block LOS: 13
Minimum Wreck Strength Points per Hex that Block LOS: 6
______________________________

I believe that every unit, new terrain feature, and scenario should be done with regard to the game's scale.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mheard JTCS is a tactical level game and not a strategic one. That much I am certain on. I suppose the context is that JTCS is not the game to fight the entire Battle of Kursk but just about covers the whole of Market Garden perhaps.


Here we agree? I think that designing scenarios to model the entire operations of Market Garden, Normandy on "D_Day", and Kursk is way beyond the game's scale. I think you can design scenarios that show bits and pieces of the battles on a tactical level.

I personally believe that scenario designers can do whatever they like within what the game engine allows them to do. If that is Market Garden, I have no problem with them taking that on. I do not play the larger scenarios, unless as a team-game, and would never try to stop anyone from making or playing a large scenario.

With that in mind I think strategic bombing or carpet bombing is "out of scale". Though I do find your attack against bridges and other terrain features, including bunkers and Pillboxes, would be a neat little trick.
Would the ability of the plane to attack wrong targets still be in effect? A plane taking out the wrong bridge would be interesting, indeed.

RR





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Post #: 21
RE: Air Force support. & game user wishlists - 9/15/2009 11:37:20 PM   
V22 Osprey


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Guys, let's not turn in into a JTCS game-scale debate like over at the blitz.We all know how that turned out.

I agree with the statement about some of the new features actually turning off players rather than improving the game.Extreme Assault and variable visibility being the worst of them all.These changes pretty much split the JTCS community in half.We should stop with the major changes now before it becomes at totally different game.I think the JTCS team's focus should be ironing out the bugs, adding countries to battle generator, improving the AI, not major changes to engine.You guys always complain about lack of AI improvements, well, how are they suppose work on AI when you are too busy focusing on changes that could ruin the game?

< Message edited by V22 Osprey -- 9/15/2009 11:38:47 PM >


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Post #: 22
RE: Air Force support. & game user wishlists - 9/16/2009 1:13:35 AM   
MrRoadrunner


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Osprey, no one was talking about Extreme Assault or Variable Visibility?

Game scale is measurable and was defined by the original designers.
The difference between here and The Blitz is that here there can be debate. At The Blitz a few posters can silence others, with the help of the Blitz leadership.

Remember, the scale of the game is the scale of the game? It is what allows tanks to fire at specific ranges or move to specific hexes.
It is a simple thing that every game simulation has. It is what determines the organizational size of units.

This is Matrix? It is where the game is developed by the Matrix team. Unless they are changing the scale of the game it will remain the scale that is used?
When they change the game's scale it will become JTCS only in name?

I've posted what the rules manual states and what the game folder says. Debate about changes can happen.

Debate about scale will be like debating that 1+1=4? Where is the debate? It either is, or it is not?  

RR

< Message edited by MrRoadrunner -- 9/16/2009 1:15:33 AM >


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Post #: 23
Game scale, game changes & aircraft again - 9/16/2009 2:48:42 AM   
mheard

 

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quote:

Would the ability of the plane to attack wrong targets still be in effect? A plane taking out the wrong bridge would be interesting, indeed.


If that is feasible to factor into the game then why not. Anything that adds to the realism of the game is fine by me and the use of aircraft is an area where there is (IMHO) room for a great amount of improvement.

Getting the views of others on what should/could be done is the way to present a consistent set of requirements. I do not advocate strategic bombing being included. However, the definition of 'tactical' bombing is somewhat elastic and definitely appears to have issues regarding scope of the game.

Yes, the scale of the game is defined in the manual and as per your other post the hex has to be fixed at 250 metres absolutely. However, I think, Roadrunner, in terms of units and timescale you are being a little too pedantic.

Baltjes has already discussed in detail the matter of scale when looking at scenarios that last a larger number of turns. I apologise in advance if what I say on this sounds a bit pompous.

A scenario of 10 turns pretty much represents one hour of real-time fighting. Anything over that number of turns and I believe one has to suspend the concept of fixed time periods per turn. There are a number of reasons for this and it is further complicated by a time frame that is in perhaps days when large scenarios are being played.

Despite terrain movement cost factors I do not see that a unit's movement can always take exactly 6 minutes. Most artillery, cannot unlimber, set sights, load shells, test range and fire on target in 6 minutes. Even with the most modern of communications available to command an artillery strike to take place within 6 minutes stretches credulity. So, the turn length has to be elastic and depends on the context of action and terrain. Otherwise, movement and firing would have to undergo very, very complicated rules which in turn would make the game less playable.

I do not consider Market Garden, Overlord, El Alamein etc., are ‘way beyond the game's scale’. The former two scenarios are already included in JTCS. Changes and improvements are needed to make these and all scenarios more realistic and just as much fun. I don’t see why recognising a variable timescale per turn changes playability or the scale of the game. I would love to see a scenario(s) that cover a day/night/next day battle of say thirty turns based on one of the famous tank engagements in the Western Desert or Russia where night fighting was minimal and visibility was affected by evening and morning light. (Great stuff, perhaps, but not yet feasible with the current game engine).

As for SPs of units what the manual states is broadly correct. BUT there are a lot of exceptions so that the SPs might not necessarily be the actual number of troops or weapons. The strength /value of 4 SPs 25lb artillery could be 4 actual guns with a standard trained and ammunition supplied crew. Conversely, same weapon with two SPs is two actually guns with a highly trained crew and a crew supplying shells at a very fast pace. The same applies to say the MG42. 2 SPs could be two guns or one gun with say three in the crew better able to supply ammunition and change a barrel speedily. This is something that the scenario designer works out.

The limit of 24SPs per hex doesn't entirely add up if taken literally. Four infantry units = 144 soldiers (give or take a few). A 250 metre square area hex is a pretty large area for this number of soldiers to fit. However, realistically a platoon and its logistic dynamic would need X amount of physical space to operate effectively if in open ground or a forrest. However, that is certainly not the case in hexes representing city or suburbs. You can get and would expect to find far more troops simply because of the number of storeys per building and cellars. (JTCS needs improvements for the better playing of street-fighting scenarios – Stalingrad, Battle of Berlin etc. IMHO).

Scenarios-wise there is and should be something for everyone in JTCS and Modern Wars. I don't advocate one group of players losing out because of an over-empahsis on the volume of changes focused in one particular area. At present we can agree to diasagree over large-scale scenarios.

OspreyV22’s post on all of this does suggest that the discussion about further improvements and changes to JTCS means we cannot see the wood for the trees.

‘I think the JTCS team's focus should be ironing out the bugs, adding countries to battle generator, improving the AI, not major changes to engine’

I don’t have a problem with that at all. Get right what you have already before putting in something new - an excellent principle. Jason Petho is working on OOB’s, units, countries etc. for V1.05. Is that all this entire forthcoming version will contain? Again, no problem. If there is more then do we know what is specifically being worked upon? (I recall seeing some postings about this but I’m not sure).

Is there any chance of a monthly V1.05 newsletter which will state what V1.05 is going to have and what is being fixed. What is the progress & problems so far and release date based on the development project progress schedule. Finally, a summary of all the ideas, changes etc. that have been suggested by the community to be possible inclusions in V1.06+ releases. (For the author of such a post I would hope most of the content would be repeated in each posting).

I for one would like to see (V1.06) aircraft, artillery and dynamic changes to terrain features to be the top priority areas to be reviewed and the appropriate changes made.



Martin

(in reply to MrRoadrunner)
Post #: 24
RE: Game scale, game changes & aircraft again - 9/16/2009 10:27:42 AM   
MrRoadrunner


Posts: 1323
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mheard

Yes, the scale of the game is defined in the manual and as per your other post the hex has to be fixed at 250 metres absolutely. However, I think, Roadrunner, in terms of units and timescale you are being a little too pedantic.

Baltjes has already discussed in detail the matter of scale when looking at scenarios that last a larger number of turns. I apologise in advance if what I say on this sounds a bit pompous.


The devil is in the details. It is what makes the game great and it's "success" spans a longer period of time than most computer games?
Think of this, "The sun rises in the East and sets in the West." Is there room for productive debate on that?
Scale is the scale? Peace out dude!

quote:

ORIGINAL: mheard I for one would like to see (V1.06) aircraft, artillery and dynamic changes to terrain features to be the top priority areas to be reviewed and the appropriate changes made. [/size] [/font]


On this we agree? Though, planes are a bit more abstracted in the game due to it being a "tactical land combat simulation"? I just may want a bit more attention paid to the minute details and the game's scale.

And, for what it is worth, I do think we agree on more than we disagree?



RR

_____________________________

“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”
― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

(in reply to mheard)
Post #: 25
RE: Game scale, game changes & aircraft again - 9/16/2009 4:24:31 PM   
mheard

 

Posts: 25
Joined: 9/4/2009
Status: offline

Hi there Roadrunner!

I think it would fair to say we do agree on more than disagree. The game has being going for more than what, eleven years, now? How many players are there worldwide I wonder?

Many of the posts (particularly concerning mods) seem to generate heated debates. I certainly don’t want to start another on what are often matters of detail. I am a new kid on the block to this forum and I don’t want to sound pushy and irritating to others who have been solidly playing and contributing for years of on various issues.

I will put my view on modding though. I am working through the unsupported Divided Ground Version 2 at the moment and will go onto the Vietnam War mod.(Unless Modern Wars I appears soon). So far, so good. However, good these mods are, and I have no complaints so far, they were and are unsupported. I can understand someone wanting to mod for the fun of it but getting the JTCS developers to ‘open up’ files and codes to all is not, IMHO, a wise idea. It’s better to put a case for this or that war to be included or these changes to be made to the current game developers and community.

I was delighted to find out that my favourite wargame had been resurrected as JTCS (V1.04 in my case). Of course an improved Divided Ground was not included but that is another matter. BUT despite all the work and achievements of the developers and the increase in the number of countries, OOBs, and better scenarios I was disappointed that the AI, Artillery, & dynamic terrain changes had not been improved or included. These were things I recall discussing with Craig Foster in 1999. I’ve got ‘my’ bridge/mine-laying engineers now and I am grateful for that! However, I having had my taste buds tickled I want more and better!

No negative criticism is meant of Jason or his colleagues here at all.

Overall I’m not a details person. So, I’ve tended to accept OOBs, for example, as given and got on with the game. To others these are the fundamental building blocks rather than the working on extra features. I don’t see why the JTCS community should argue (debate, yes) about priorities of game development so long as we know in advance what is being done and the timescales involved. Like I said in my previous post I am not entirely clear what Jason Petho and the other members of the team’s schedule and tasklist is for V1.05 and what they intend to do next. (I expect Modern Wars is going to affect the schedule).

I am intending to construct my ‘what I would like to see in the game’ list. Too long for a post so I will want to attach it as an MS Word document. Do you know if this is feasible?

BFN,


Martin







(in reply to MrRoadrunner)
Post #: 26
RE: Game scale, game changes & aircraft again - 9/16/2009 5:43:18 PM   
Jason Petho


Posts: 15009
Joined: 6/22/2004
From: Terrace, BC, Canada
Status: offline
Modern Wars: Volume I -- 2009

UPDATE 1.05 -- 2010

Modern Wars: Volume II -- 2010/11

UPDATE 1.06 -- 2011/12

etc.

Jason Petho






_____________________________


(in reply to mheard)
Post #: 27
RE: Game scale, game changes & aircraft again - 9/16/2009 6:39:52 PM   
mheard

 

Posts: 25
Joined: 9/4/2009
Status: offline
Great, thanks a lot, Jason.

Is is possible to have details as to what is going to be in V1.05 (definitely and probably) & what conceptually is going to be in V1.06? A clear idea of this I feel is very important for the JTCS community.

Is there going to be a charge for these upgrades?

As for Modern Wars I I'm looking forward to this and any, any improvement on Divided Ground will be wonderful - and Vietnam War as well! There won't be a DCG if I recall. Will there be some LCGs though?

Perhaps the aforementioned release notes should be put under a different thread or topic in the forums?

All the best and thanks again,


Martin

(in reply to Jason Petho)
Post #: 28
RE: Game scale, game changes & aircraft again - 9/16/2009 6:52:31 PM   
Jason Petho


Posts: 15009
Joined: 6/22/2004
From: Terrace, BC, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mheard

Great, thanks a lot, Jason.


No worries.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mheard
Is is possible to have details as to what is going to be in V1.05 (definitely and probably) & what conceptually is going to be in V1.06? A clear idea of this I feel is very important for the JTCS community.


Not at this point, no. Modern Wars has the priority at the moment, more information will be available once Modern Wars is released.


quote:

ORIGINAL: mheard
Is there going to be a charge for these upgrades?



UPDATES are free. Modern Wars is a purchase as it is a new game (well, two games in one).


quote:

ORIGINAL: mheard
As for Modern Wars I I'm looking forward to this and any, any improvement on Divided Ground will be wonderful - and Vietnam War as well! There won't be a DCG if I recall. Will there be some LCGs though?


LCG's are included.

DCG's are not, although we are hoping to include them in the future and I have been building the OOB's to be DCG "ready".

Jason Petho




_____________________________


(in reply to mheard)
Post #: 29
RE: Game scale, game changes & aircraft again - 9/16/2009 7:47:41 PM   
MrRoadrunner


Posts: 1323
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline
Hello Martin,

Yes, there is agreement on quite a bit.
Your tenure in the game is worth more than longevity on the forums? Feel free to post away! Everyone is entitled to an opinion and make suggestions?

Concerning your modding. I think this area of the forums is the place to discuss, as well as post, them: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tt.asp?forumid=452

Jason and the team have made some good tools to help us transmit our requests in a clear and orderly fashion. They have been most helpful, listen well, and react cordially to constructive criticism.

RR

_____________________________

“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”
― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

(in reply to mheard)
Post #: 30
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