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Disorganized/Cohesion - 9/10/2009 4:14:29 AM   
Derouin


Posts: 41
Joined: 11/24/2008
Status: offline 		Hi guys, On several loadout screens, I have encountered squads who are 'disorganized' and they cannot be substituted. What does this mean? What effects does this have on the squad's performance?

Also, what effect does the Cohesion have on a battle group on the strategic map?

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RE: Disorganized/Cohesion - 9/12/2009 12:01:36 PM   
RD Oddball

 

Posts: 4836
Joined: 2/10/2007
Status: offline 		From the manual:
quote:

  
On the left side of the Debriefing Screen, there is a display representing the state of cohesion for each Battle Group upon completion of the battle. Cohesion is a post battle measure of the Battle Groupfs morale and the ability of individual units (infantry squads and support weapons) to rapidly execute the orders given. Battle Groups that have sustained heavy casualties will have less cohesion and thus may not perform effectively unless rested.


The reference to disorganization is an extension of this aspect and essentially a different way to explain the same thing.  It's all a result of cohesion.  Beyond that if you want more detail I'd have to ask the programmer as he's the only one who has that intimate a knowledge of the exact causes and effects.

The part of your question about substitution I'm not 100% sure about.  I'd have to ask him specifically how cohesion effects what unit's a player can substitute and which they can't.

< Message edited by RD_Oddball -- 9/12/2009 12:03:00 PM >

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Post #: 2
RE: Disorganized/Cohesion - 9/12/2009 4:42:56 PM   
Tejszd

 

Posts: 3437
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline 		As Oddball said above the programmer would have to provide details but here are my impressions of how it works.

On a BG level; as a BG fights and moves its units would get spread out and communication would be harder which lowers cohesion. Once cohesion hits a certain lower level disorganized units appear within BG's which will not get replacement troops and can not be swapped out. It is a penalty for not allowing a BG to rest.

In battle; as cohesion falls you will have disorganized units (units with missing men), your troops will perform a bit worse and your morale probably falls faster. 

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RE: Disorganized/Cohesion - 9/12/2009 7:24:37 PM   
panzerlehr62


Posts: 314
Joined: 2/23/2009
Status: offline 		Very well put Tejszd.

What I would like to see is that if a team became disorganized, not only could you not use it for that battle but also say have a certain percentage chance of it being lost too.

Up until my last battle, its been more of a nuisance then anything else to have one or sometimes even two units disorganized. Normally both sides that are locked into a prolonged battle will suffer disorganization equally and generally speaking teams you had from the previous battle will still be ones you will want to use again. Exception to that is when the AI fills in the open slots (due to lost teams) you may get stuck with something you don't want!


Another way it can effect you is when your BG is low on fuel. I just had a Centaur destroyed because I was not able to switch it out (1 in 15 odds and I still didn't get lucky) and naturally it started the battle out of fuel (1 in 3 odds) entering a new map with no cover. The next battle coming up I will again face a similar situation with 2 teams I would prefer not to use, but may be forced too use one of them!


Gz...




< Message edited by panzerlehr62 -- 9/12/2009 9:53:03 PM >

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RE: Disorganized/Cohesion - 9/13/2009 2:20:11 PM   
Senior Drill


Posts: 199
Joined: 11/21/2007
From: Quantico
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: panzerlehr62 ..... What I would like to see is that if a team became disorganized, not only could you not use it for that battle but also say have a certain percentage chance of it being lost too. ....


In my experience a disorgainized team performs well once the battle starts. There may be some game engine penalty being applied to it, but if so, I haven't noticed. In future CC games, I'd like to see an actual penalty applied in Deploy and during battle. I thought about not being able to move the unit in deploy or issue it orders, but the initial positions that the AI plops units on the map is often screwy and tactically insane. The unit is disorgainized, not stupid or suicidal, so I don't care for that idea.

Perhaps it could be that the unit cannot be issued any orders for a set amount of time, a random amount of time or the entire battle. In essence they would start on the default Ambush and only fire to defend themselves. After a certain percentage of the game time has elapsed, say 33%, there would be a low percentage check rolled every remaining minute to see if it got its collective head out of its duffle bag to once again be able to be given orders. The unit would be more or less useless for the first few minutes of the battle and you have less than a 50% chance of gaining control of it during the rest of the battle.



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RE: Disorganized/Cohesion - 9/13/2009 6:14:42 PM   
panzerlehr62


Posts: 314
Joined: 2/23/2009
Status: offline 		Yep,

When I had my first disorganized teams (actually right after you posted a picture of it drill) start appearing I would try and put them out of harms way. But in this game, especially when you are attacking you don't always have the option to not use all 15 at some point. I noticed after awhile too that they seemed to do just fine in battle and I pretty much don't even pay attention to it anymore.

I definitly would like some sort of penalty that we can actually see or just do away with it altogether.

Gz..

< Message edited by panzerlehr62 -- 9/13/2009 10:55:22 PM >

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RE: Disorganized/Cohesion - 9/13/2009 10:50:26 PM   
CSO_Talorgan


Posts: 768
Joined: 3/10/2007
Status: offline 		Is this equivalent to the system in III/COI where units had to be rested?

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Post #: 7
RE: Disorganized/Cohesion - 9/14/2009 6:01:47 PM   
RD Oddball

 

Posts: 4836
Joined: 2/10/2007
Status: offline 		You could look at it that way but the reason behind it is different.  In the case of CoI it was because the team(s) being rested had spent so much time in battle that the effect of prolonged stress was beginning to take it's toll.  In the case of TLD it's not necessarily because they're exhausted but more because they're kind of freaked out.  Perhaps a loss of confidence in leadership or a lack of presence of leadership keeping them organized and fighting in a way they feel is keeping themselves alive?  Perhaps on top of that being tired?  Lack of experience in the team plus being up against an enemy they are perceiving as superior and the threat of impending death?  All the above?

The spark for the conept and reason for implementation is what Darren described.  A penalty for the players lack of attention to keeping teams within command radius combined with putting them in difficult tactical situations for prolonged periods of time.  Keep a command team nearby and if they're a particularly inexperienced team or been in battle a long time pull them back.

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Post #: 8
RE: Disorganized/Cohesion - 9/14/2009 9:31:13 PM   
Andrew Williams


Posts: 6116
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline 		Interesting though.. If you load a Bg that is disorganized the team(s) that are are picked are random.  Just exit and return a few times an you will see that different teams are chosen to be disorganised and hence not be able to be swapped out.  So it seems at the Strat level it doesn't matter which teams you have neglected at the Tac level because of the randomizing effect..

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Post #: 9
RE: Disorganized/Cohesion - 9/17/2009 6:42:30 AM   
FeurerKrieg


Posts: 3397
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Denver, CO
Status: offline 		I did notice in one battle, I had a command unit that was flagged disorganized. Well, when I went into deployment and then the battle as well, the leadership 'ring' that displays when you press the space bar was not present at all for the unit.

So while they may not fight worse, there may be a leadership penalty, which would make sense.

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RE: Disorganized/Cohesion - 2/10/2010 12:52:23 AM   
mooxe


Posts: 314
Joined: 10/25/2003
Status: offline 		This question was brought up over at CCS as well. Theres a lot of probablies, not 100%, I believe and it seems caveats added to the end of statements here.
One issue definetly needs to be addressed. The programmer is implementing a feature of which nobody on the team can definitively explain except maybe him.

From the WhatsNew.pdf:

Low BG cohesion can result in ‘disorganized’ teams which can not be
swapped out on the BG screen. These will be any shot up teams that were
not repaired / filled out, or random teams if none of those exist.

Is this the answer? If so, there are no specific attribute/characterisic penalties to a soldiers performance.

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