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What was the most pivotal battle of WW2?

 
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What was the most pivotal battle of WW2? - 6/14/2002 10:20:19 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

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Status: offline 		Just bored here and was watching tv and saw some material on Srewball Buzz Buerling (spelling approximate).
Was looking at the part when they mentioned him at Malta.

When I think of Malta disrupting Rommel, they lost chance at the Suez Canal, eventually got kicked out of Africa, never had a chance to threaten Russia from the south through the Middle east. As a result of losing Africa they lost in time the whole Med which cost them Italy as a partner.

I think the fight for Malta was perhaps one of the most under rated pivotal battles of WW2.

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Re: What was the most pivotal battle of WW2? - 6/15/2002 12:46:50 AM   
Nixuebrig

 

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Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]Just bored here and was watching tv and saw some material on Srewball Buzz Buerling (spelling approximate).
Was looking at the part when they mentioned him at Malta.

When I think of Malta disrupting Rommel, they lost chance at the Suez Canal, eventually got kicked out of Africa, never had a chance to threaten Russia from the south through the Middle east. As a result of losing Africa they lost in time the whole Med which cost them Italy as a partner.

I think the fight for Malta was perhaps one of the most under rated pivotal battles of WW2. [/B][/QUOTE]

I agree with you. If I am right german high command wanted a victory in Egypt first, before attacking Malta. Guess Crete had still given an impression so they don`t wanted a second air assault.

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- 6/15/2002 3:03:40 AM   
Frost

 

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Status: offline 		The Mess Hall Food fight of 42. boy that was a hum dinger, caused wide spread food shortages through out the Pacific theatre. :p

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- 6/15/2002 3:53:24 AM   
rosary

 

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Status: offline 		My guess would be Pearl Harbor though that can't be considered a true battle in some respects. It was the one attack that really helped to the U.S. to declare war. Of course, the U.S. did not win the war by itself. But until that point the other allies were not exactly kicking arse.

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- 6/15/2002 5:40:06 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

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Status: offline 		You gotta be kidding me Pearl Harbour?

The only thing significant about Pearl (aside from the Japanese screwing up by pissing off a very powerful rich untouchable industry) was how the Japanese completely buggered the raid by not getting the oil there.
Heck if they had trashed the oil the ships might as well have been sunk. They wouldn't have any way of operating.

I doubt the US would have been out of the war much longer. The Japanese needed the resources, and they intended to take them. Hitting Pearl was just a piece of a strategy that was going to force the US's hand regardless. It wasn't a bright idea at best. and a mangled attempt in the end.

Pearl being important on the basis of an eventuality that was a given though I think doesn't quite qualify as "pivotal".

Donning my hard hat now, I expect its going to get really dangerous about now:D :D

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- 6/15/2002 11:34:51 AM   
rosary

 

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Status: offline 		Perhaps the U.S. would have declared War anyways. The fact is that this was the one single and most memorable Event that triggered Congress to declare War. Sure something else could have caused the U.S. to declare war. But that's beside the point. This was the Event.

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- 6/15/2002 6:53:53 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

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Status: offline 		Well yes it "triggered" the US entry, but "pivotal" no I want "pivotal".

Like the Battle of Coral Sea.

If the Japanese had not turned back (and they did so for reasons less than absolute), would the situation in the Pacific have dramatically been altered?

Coral Sea likely decided the fate of Australia. And loss of Australia would have meant the collapse of the whole of the South Pacific campaign. It might have made Guadalcanal un doable. No glorious marine return to several islands. No eventual stemming of the tide.
Hence Coral Sea likely was "pivotal". It was more than just the first carrier battle as a result.

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- 6/15/2002 9:19:17 PM   
Hades

 

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Status: offline 		I think in a way the Battle of Briton was, because if the Brits had lost then Germany would be free to hit the USSR with all its might and the U.S would be stuck with the japs.

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- 6/16/2002 12:23:11 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

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Status: offline 		Yes amazing what a petty detail can do eh.

One errant bommber hitting London likely saved Britain.

The Blitz was a special hell, but Hitler's tantrum prevented him from finishing the RAF which was sucking air and about to crumple at the time.

Not sure the Royal Navy could have completely stopped Sealion.

Probably the end result would have been a messy ground combat in lower England.
And Germany, who knows, might have been unable to deal with Russia even still. Russia might have gained a full year's respite from Hitler's ambitions.
Might have stalled Hitler's moves in the Balkans too.

But regardless, the Battle of Britain saved Britain from knowing the level of sacrifice that would have ensued.

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- 6/16/2002 12:51:54 AM   
Hades

 

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Status: offline 		Maybe Russia could of even eventually defeated the Germans and then entered the war with the U.S agianst the Japs causing the Reb Banner to fall across Eurasia from France to Manchiria. Cool. The USSR would then be the only superpower in the world. No cold war or anything.

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This one is still being argued... - 6/16/2002 1:18:40 AM   
KG Erwin


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Status: offline 		...since there were so many, but I'll focus on Hitler's decision to launch Operation Barbarossa. He irrevocably commited Germany to a two-front war, and with the benefit of hindsight, sealed the Third Reich's doom. Pearl Harbor is also a good choice, since Hitler chose this time to declare war on the United States. At that point, the war truly became a world war. Particular battles don't mean as much as political decisions in this sense, that is, we should define our own "pivotal events" in the outcome of the war. That's my view, for whatever its worth.

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Post #: 11
- 6/16/2002 1:56:26 AM   
Goblin


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Status: offline 		Les, I have to say Pearl. While the US probably would have entered the war anyways, the attack on Pearl pissed us off! And that was a pivotal thing. Instead of fighting in a war that we weren't sure we should be in, we were suddenly fighting a war that HAD to be fought! And won! And they made us WANT to do it.

Barbarossa is also at the top of the list.

Goblin- A Goblin gives his reasons:)

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- 6/16/2002 3:58:35 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

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Status: offline 		Hmmm well I am likely flogging a dead horse here...still got my hard hat on too hehe:D

But nominating Pearl is way to Americanicentric in viewpoint.

No one will ever disagree that bringing in the US into the war was a good thing from an Axis perspective. And Germany's agressive declaration of war is always going to look odd in hindsight too.

But as a Canadian I can't share the idignation value of Pearl Harbour I guess.

Pearl was tragic just like Hong Kong was tragic (we lost a lot of good men there that had barely even arrived).
But pivotal, nope.

Where is the massive influence in the wars events?

Come on guys think pivotal.

Such as the decision to give Monty the gas instead of Patton.

I personally wish they had given it to Patton. Monty was not worthy of his fame. And Patton kicked ***.
I suspect if Patton had been given the gas we would not have had the same sort of Europe.
That's pivotal.
Market Garden accomplished nothing worthy. But Patton might well have sliced right through southern Germany. We might never have known the "Battle of The Bulge".
The Russians might have had to contend with only "Liberating" Poland.
No divided Germany might have made for some interestingly different history.

Come on guys stop waving the flag and act like historians.:)

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Midway - 6/16/2002 4:17:19 AM   
mjk428

 

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Status: offline 		Hi,

I like the choice of Pearl Harbor for the reasons stated by the posters.

It's an obvious choice but I think Midway was the most pivotal battle in the Pacific Theater. It brought the allies closer to parity with the IJN carrier forces. It had the greater effect of causing the Japanese to lose the initiative. It was a major blow to their confidence.

In Europe I would say the capture of the Remagen bridge. I'm prejudiced though. My father was wounded there. He was one of the first 100 across and actually crossed over it twice under fire.

mjk428

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Post #: 14
Dunkirk - 6/16/2002 7:45:41 AM   
Capt. Pixel

 

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Status: offline 		The point at which the Brits had to surrender France to the Germans.

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Post #: 15
Moscow - 6/16/2002 11:16:37 AM   
ALHAY

 

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Status: offline 		How 'bout the Battle of Moscow? Once the Germans stopped trying to take the Soviet capitol it was just a matter of time till Berlin fell.

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Post #: 16
- 6/16/2002 5:40:58 PM   
Muzrub


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Status: offline 		Kursk- Germanys last throw of the dice!

Crete- though the defence was unorganised and poorly lead the troops fought hard..... The result is no invasion of Malta with that North Africa was a lost battle.

The defence of Port Morsbey and NG by Australian troops, regulars and reserves stopped the Japanese advance and saved Australia from a possible invasion.

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Post #: 17
- 6/16/2002 7:08:34 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

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Status: offline 		Not sure about Dunkirk.
It certainly was a disaster made to look like a miracle though.

Refarding Moscow, the decision to go wandering around Minsk was the pivotal part of the lost opportunity at Moscow though.
Hitler diluted his thrust at Moscow trying to do to much.
I have yet to play a wargame where I could do both myself at least.

Crete and the harsh losses on the German Airborne might have been all part of the effect of Malta though. It made the Germans hesitate when the supreme effort (regardless of losses) might have handed them the entire war. But hindsight always makes those statements easy to make.

MacArthur didn't have many kind words to say for the Aussies holding the trail over those mountains eh, till the US forces were given a taste of what it was like. I don't recall reading of any fighting anywhere, where the jungle was your primary cause of casualties.
After Coral Sea the Japanese really tried to force that option. The Aussie's earned a spot in the history books for their efforts against those brutal odds.
And the situation in the Pacific sure was undecided at that time.

Midway was a thrashing, but then we had an edge with code breaking.
I think the code breakers deserve the kudos for that battle. Without us knowing in advance they were coming, it would likely have never happened.
The true pivotal part of Midway happened in some dreary office.

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Post #: 18
- 6/16/2002 10:54:04 PM   
Brigz


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Status: offline 		Well, Les, this isn't exactly what you had in mind. But if you want "pivotal" then I can't think of anything more pivotal than the work the Allied code-breakers did. Just as important as any battle. Obtaining Ultra and breaking the Japanese codes allowed the Allies (and by that I mean primarily the US and Britain/Canada) to know just about everything the Germans and Japanese were going to do. Especially the Japanese because their attempts at secrecy were nothing less than laughable due to thier own arrogance and contempt for the "allied barbarians". This info not only shortened the war and further assured victory, but hundreds of thousands of Allied and Axis lives were saved because of this information. The only thing the Axis were able to keep secret from the Allies was the Ardennes Offensive and that was a waste for the Germans and doomed from the beginning anyway. We knew just about everything else though. I don't think you can get more pivotal than knowing what the enemy is going to do before he does it. And I still think there are things we knew about before-hand that are still a secret. How's that for pivotal?

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- 6/17/2002 12:17:47 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

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Status: offline 		Actaully Dave it "exactly" what I had in mind.

The intelligence war was definitely a major factor. And brutally decisive at Midway.

Not to mention it is danged hard to represent Ultra and Magic in a wargame (you almost have to let the allied player cheat in some way heheh).

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Re: Midway - Codebreakers - 6/17/2002 3:26:31 AM   
mjk428

 

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Status: offline 		It's absolutely true that the codebreakers made Midway possible. However, aviators still had to get through the defenses of 4 CV's to deliver the blows. Knowing what to do and doing it are two different things. It all came together and the result was truly pivotal. Again, kudos to the codebreakers for making it possible.

mjk428

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Post #: 21
- 6/17/2002 4:57:56 AM   
Hades

 

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Status: offline 		Along the lines of code breaking what about the capture of the Enigma machine in the Alantic? I think that was just as important.

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Re: This one is still being argued... - 6/17/2002 6:59:46 AM   
Vincent Prochelo

 

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Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by KG Erwin
[B]...since there were so many, but I'll focus on Hitler's decision to launch Operation Barbarossa. He irrevocably commited Germany to a two-front war, and with the benefit of hindsight, sealed the Third Reich's doom. [/B][/QUOTE]

But the whole reason Hitler went to war was to attack and defeat the Soviet Union.

Hitler's To-Do List circa 1938:

1. Get the Jews
2. Revenge Versailles
3. Lebensraum

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Truly pivotal, then? Hades is on the right track... - 6/17/2002 8:03:33 AM   
KG Erwin


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Status: offline 		You can't beat this one--the Allies (the Poles, to be exact) getting possession of an Enigma machine, and breaking this previously unbreakable code. This led to the failure of the Malta operations, and many of the North African battles. Pivotal--breaking Enigma should be near the top of the list.

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Intelligence ops being vital... - 6/17/2002 8:10:11 AM   
KG Erwin


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Status: offline 		...to the prosecution of a war cannot be emphasized strongly enough in the war against the Muslim terrorists.

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Post #: 25
- 6/17/2002 8:42:19 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

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Status: offline 		KG please remember this is about the most pivotal battle of WW2.

That said, I highly doubt you will fault me on asking everyone from refraining on making any comment outside the confines of WW2.

That includes logically, the current politics of the moment. Not to mention potentially flash fire comments inluding terms of a racial or religious context.

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Post #: 26
- 6/17/2002 10:23:01 AM   
Brigz


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Status: offline 		Interesting that some of us are talking about Ultra and Enigma as if they were two different things. Been a while since I've read on this, but if I remember correctly, Ultra was the Allied codename for intepretation, duplication, and siezure of Enigma codes and devices. I was positive I had a book about Ultra around here somewhere, but I can't seem to find it, so I'm just pulling things out of memory. Am I correct about this?

What I find most interesting about the Allied ability to break the German codes is that they couldn't act on everything they intercepted or the German's would catch on. It's fascinating just to think about the decision making process on when and how often to use the information.

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- 6/17/2002 11:05:15 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

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Status: offline 		My own knowledge is a bit shaky but I think Ultra was the code name for the German enigma machine based intercepts.

But yes they had to be danged careful how they used the knowledge lest they blow the secret that they had that option at all.

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- 6/17/2002 3:41:08 PM   
msaario

 

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Status: offline 		Correct if I am wrong, but didn't the US hit the jackpot at Midway due to the local circumstances and not the code breaking efforts? This all comes from my feeble memory, but the Japanese were switching from bombs (destined for Midway) to torpedoes (they just discovered the US carriers) and the CAP was who knows where (refueling? loitering someplace?) as the American air power struck them? So, the US airmen didn't know beforehand that they were going to surprise the Japs with their pants down...

The Kursk was a disaster for the Germans, because they:
a) Had a spy in their high command leaking the information to the Russians.
b) They were so incredibly stubborn and blind when continuing the attack even though it should have been quite clear after hitting the endless lines of defences that they were pushing hard into the biggest ambush ever created.

Had the Germans conquered Egypt and then Arab oil, they would have been even more overstreched with their supply lines and more dispersed with their troops when the Allied started to attack their back in the western Mediterranean.

You can find dozens of pivotal battles of WWII, but to name just one... maybe Stalingrad. It ended the German advance in Russia, which was the deciding front of WWII, thus giving the advantage to the Russians. Had the Germans had the millions of battle-hardened men and tens of thousands of tanks and planes they lost in the east available to meet the D-Day, well, you can imagine the outcome.

--Mikko

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I am not sure if this qualifies Les But - 6/17/2002 11:00:13 PM   
Gary Tatro

 

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Status: offline 		The dropping of THE BOMB. Not a battle but in the Pacific theater I would say it qualifies as the most Pivotal Point in the War.

It always supprises me that I live in the only Country in the World that has used a Nuclear Weapon against other Human Beings.:(

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