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IJN Carrier Air Groups - 9/11/2009 2:15:34 AM   
jomni


Posts: 2827
Joined: 11/19/2007
Status: offline 		Warning! Noob question.

I'm playing Japanese and it's now Jan 1942. I have about 3 carriers at the home islands without air groups assigned. Do I really have to reassign the existing land-based air groups to these carriers? Looking at the reinforcement screen, there seems to be no specific air gorups that are to be assigned to the carriers (also the ones under production).

So does this mean that the only way is to use Political Points to unlock the home islands air flotilla(s) to be able to assign air groups to the carriers?

Another alternative is to get the air groups that are in Formosa but they're mostly naval fighters.
Post #: 1
RE: IJN Carrier Air Groups - 9/11/2009 2:42:00 AM   
Iridium


Posts: 932
Joined: 4/1/2005
From: Jersey
Status: offline 		It would help to know which CVs we're talking about but off hand I'll guess your probably looking at CVEs which had no organic air groups. You can take carrier capable craft to them but no carrier trained groups are available (unless you've lost a CV and saved the air groups).

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RE: IJN Carrier Air Groups - 9/11/2009 2:46:19 AM   
Admiral DadMan


Posts: 3627
Joined: 2/22/2002
From: A Lion uses all its might to catch a Rabbit
Status: offline 		Which Scenario is this? CVE's will arrive without airgroups.

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RE: IJN Carrier Air Groups - 9/11/2009 2:56:03 AM   
jomni


Posts: 2827
Joined: 11/19/2007
Status: offline 		I see so CVE's don't have airgroups and you have the choice of loading them up with what ever you like.
I think they can also be used for Air transport to a certain degree right?

Anyway, just to confirm... will CV's and CVL's come with their respective air groups once they come out of the production line (but limited by airframe production capacity and replacement rate)?

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Post #: 4
RE: IJN Carrier Air Groups - 9/11/2009 3:10:14 AM   
Admiral DadMan


Posts: 3627
Joined: 2/22/2002
From: A Lion uses all its might to catch a Rabbit
Status: offline 		7.0.1.1.1 BASING CARRIER, PATROL, AND FLOAT AIRCRAFT
Any fighter, fighter bomber, dive bomber, or torpedo bomber type plane can take off from an Aircraft Carrier, but not necessarily land back on the Carrier.

Carrier Trained aircraft are noted as such on their Air Unit Information Screen. They function normally on Carriers, and may take off and land on a Carrier and perform non-transfer Missions from it.

Certain other units will be listed as Carrier Capable on their Air Unit Information Screen. These planes may be fully functional on Aircraft Carriers, but have a higher chance of suffering Operational Losses during take-offs and landings. Just because an aircraft is Carrier Capable (i.e. it is built for carrier operations, having a tail hook and other necessary equipment) does not mean the pilot flying it is trained to land and take off from one.

If an aircraft squadron is a fighter, fighter bomber, dive bomber, or torpedo bomber and is not Carrier Trained and Carrier Capable, and is located on a Carrier, it may only be transferred to a Carrier in the same hex (loaded with cranes, as they could not land on a Carrier) or may only fly from the Carrier when ordered to transfer to a base. Also, carriers may never carry more than 5 air units at one time.

Any Float plane or Float fighter may be based on a Battleship, Heavy Cruiser, CS, or other non-carrier type ship that has the capacity to carry aircraft. Aircraft Carriers (including Light Carriers and Escort Carriers) cannot carry float planes. Float planes, float fighters, and patrol planes can be based at any friendly airfield, including those that are size 0 as long as they are on a coastal hex.

< Message edited by Admiral DadMan -- 9/11/2009 3:12:28 AM >

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RE: IJN Carrier Air Groups - 9/11/2009 3:12:56 AM   
Fishbed

 

Posts: 1822
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From: Beijing, China - Paris, France
Status: offline 		... and from what I've seen in the AAR, a carrier-capable unit can become carrier-trained overtime (saw it work with some Marine units)

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RE: IJN Carrier Air Groups - 9/11/2009 3:47:59 AM   
Mynok


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Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni

I see so CVE's don't have airgroups and you have the choice of loading them up with what ever you like.
I think they can also be used for Air transport to a certain degree right?

Anyway, just to confirm... will CV's and CVL's come with their respective air groups once they come out of the production line (but limited by airframe production capacity and replacement rate)?


Yep. CVs and CVLs come with groups. CVEs do not.

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Post #: 7
RE: IJN Carrier Air Groups - 9/11/2009 3:52:23 AM   
P.Hausser


Posts: 416
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

... and from what I've seen in the AAR, a carrier-capable unit can become carrier-trained overtime (saw it work with some Marine units)




Comfirm `?

How to do that ?

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Post #: 8
RE: IJN Carrier Air Groups - 9/11/2009 4:02:16 AM   
Fishbed

 

Posts: 1822
Joined: 11/21/2005
From: Beijing, China - Paris, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: P.Hausser


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

... and from what I've seen in the AAR, a carrier-capable unit can become carrier-trained overtime (saw it work with some Marine units)




Comfirm `?

How to do that ?

Saw it in Scott's "Wienie Roasting" AAR

VMF-221 attains carrier trained status on Saratoga
VMSB-241 attains carrier trained status on Lexington

About how you do that, you'll have to ask him... But I guess it's just a matter of operating them long enough on a CV platform

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Post #: 9
RE: IJN Carrier Air Groups - 9/11/2009 4:14:23 AM   
USS Henrico

 

Posts: 152
Joined: 8/2/2009
From: Charlottesville, VA
Status: offline 		So if you base carrier trained planes at land bases, like the Japanese did with some of their carrier air groups historically, do they eventually lose their carrier training and become only carrier capable? If an air group can get carrier trained by operating off carriers, it seems only fitting that they can lose their edge when operating off land bases, especially after you have some replacement pilots join the group.

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Post #: 10
RE: IJN Carrier Air Groups - 9/11/2009 5:02:46 AM   
scott64


Posts: 4019
Joined: 9/12/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		Use them or lose them.

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Post #: 11
RE: IJN Carrier Air Groups - 9/11/2009 6:19:27 AM   
jomni


Posts: 2827
Joined: 11/19/2007
Status: offline 		Thanks for the reply everyone.  It has been very informative.  This is my first grand campaign.

I read that some players don't even bother building the CVE's.

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Post #: 12
RE: IJN Carrier Air Groups - 9/11/2009 7:01:46 AM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishbed


quote:

ORIGINAL: P.Hausser


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

... and from what I've seen in the AAR, a carrier-capable unit can become carrier-trained overtime (saw it work with some Marine units)




Comfirm `?

How to do that ?

Saw it in Scott's "Wienie Roasting" AAR

VMF-221 attains carrier trained status on Saratoga
VMSB-241 attains carrier trained status on Lexington

About how you do that, you'll have to ask him... But I guess it's just a matter of operating them long enough on a CV platform




WOW

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Post #: 13
RE: IJN Carrier Air Groups - 9/11/2009 3:30:17 PM   
Fishbed

 

Posts: 1822
Joined: 11/21/2005
From: Beijing, China - Paris, France
Status: offline 		Shameless bump: I'd be very interested knowing about the general mechanics behind that. Maybe someone like the Elf would be able to give us a hint about what to do to gain this carrier trained ability (is it a matter of pilots or a matter of group?) and if such a group may lose this ability if it stays on-shore too long because of the crew replacement?

(My 1000th post... Hail the Legion!!!  )
(Edit: looks like it's not enough yet... Damn, damn, damn!)

< Message edited by Fishbed -- 9/11/2009 3:32:53 PM >

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Post #: 14
RE: IJN Carrier Air Groups - 9/11/2009 3:50:32 PM   
scott64


Posts: 4019
Joined: 9/12/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishbed


quote:

ORIGINAL: P.Hausser


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

... and from what I've seen in the AAR, a carrier-capable unit can become carrier-trained overtime (saw it work with some Marine units)




Comfirm `?

How to do that ?

Saw it in Scott's "Wienie Roasting" AAR

VMF-221 attains carrier trained status on Saratoga
VMSB-241 attains carrier trained status on Lexington

About how you do that, you'll have to ask him... But I guess it's just a matter of operating them long enough on a CV platform

I do not recall what happened. I either were training them or they appeared. Lexington has not seen any combat as the Saratoga has seen some near port Moresby.

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Post #: 15
RE: IJN Carrier Air Groups - 9/18/2009 1:44:25 AM   
Fishbed

 

Posts: 1822
Joined: 11/21/2005
From: Beijing, China - Paris, France
Status: offline 		I guess it must be automatic then...? We'll have to try have some tests about that (if The Elf still refuses to show up   )

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Post #: 16
RE: IJN Carrier Air Groups - 9/18/2009 2:12:48 AM   
SteveD64

 

Posts: 570
Joined: 10/26/2006
From: Shaker Hts, Ohio, USA
Status: offline 		learn something new everyday- that would explain why, when landing carrier capable Vals on the Unyo, they all became inoperable

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Post #: 17
RE: IJN Carrier Air Groups - 9/18/2009 2:21:46 AM   
jolly_pillager

 

Posts: 206
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni

Thanks for the reply everyone.  It has been very informative.  This is my first grand campaign.

I read that some players don't even bother building the CVE's.


The CVE's are somewhat....anemic....in the airpower department.

CVE's are slow.

CVE's are favorite targets of subs, making their use as roving ASW ships somewhat questionable.

CVE's can perform air transport, but so can AK's

CVE's use merchant build points that might be better spent building TK's before the US subs sink so many that you're behind the curve trying to catch up....except you start behind the curve and can never really catch up.....

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Post #: 18
RE: IJN Carrier Air Groups - 9/18/2009 2:31:15 AM   
Zacktar


Posts: 169
Joined: 6/23/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishbed
Saw it in Scott's "Wienie Roasting" AAR

VMF-221 attains carrier trained status on Saratoga
VMSB-241 attains carrier trained status on Lexington

About how you do that, you'll have to ask him... But I guess it's just a matter of operating them long enough on a CV platform


Oh, nice! I can't wait to play around with that one a little.

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Post #: 19
RE: IJN Carrier Air Groups - 9/18/2009 3:07:47 AM   
Czert

 

Posts: 255
Joined: 7/22/2006
Status: offline 		Have all japanese CVL own airgroups, or some of them arive without them ?

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RE: IJN Carrier Air Groups - 9/18/2009 3:12:42 AM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
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From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jolly_pillager


CVE's can perform air transport, but so can AK's




'cept with CVE's you can fly land based air off of them to a distant base and the aircraft don't need to be repaired.

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Post #: 21
RE: IJN Carrier Air Groups - 9/18/2009 3:35:09 AM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jolly_pillager


quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni

Thanks for the reply everyone.  It has been very informative.  This is my first grand campaign.

I read that some players don't even bother building the CVE's.


The CVE's are somewhat....anemic....in the airpower department.

CVE's are slow.

CVE's are favorite targets of subs, making their use as roving ASW ships somewhat questionable.

CVE's can perform air transport, but so can AK's

CVE's use merchant build points that might be better spent building TK's before the US subs sink so many that you're behind the curve trying to catch up....except you start behind the curve and can never really catch up.....


I like them as ASW assets, or at least I did so in Witp. Jury is still out in AE, but I intend to try them in that role.

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RE: IJN Carrier Air Groups - 9/18/2009 8:49:22 AM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		US CVE ship crewmembers said that the acronym stands for "Combustible, Vulnerable and Expendable"....





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Post #: 23
RE: IJN Carrier Air Groups - 9/18/2009 2:21:06 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		IJN CVE's definitely de-fanged a bit. Can't carry torps, and the Japanese now don't have many CV-capable units you can put on there anyway.

I used to use them with Baby-KB; probably not anymore.

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RE: IJN Carrier Air Groups - 9/18/2009 2:25:08 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		I plan on using them to train "carrier capable" to "carrier trained" groups.

Edit: Kind of how the Hosho was used historically. Also, they can be used as aircraft transports.

< Message edited by Mike Solli -- 9/18/2009 2:27:16 PM >

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Post #: 25
RE: IJN Carrier Air Groups - 9/18/2009 2:40:20 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


quote:

ORIGINAL: jolly_pillager


quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni

Thanks for the reply everyone.  It has been very informative.  This is my first grand campaign.

I read that some players don't even bother building the CVE's.


The CVE's are somewhat....anemic....in the airpower department.

CVE's are slow.

CVE's are favorite targets of subs, making their use as roving ASW ships somewhat questionable.

CVE's can perform air transport, but so can AK's

CVE's use merchant build points that might be better spent building TK's before the US subs sink so many that you're behind the curve trying to catch up....except you start behind the curve and can never really catch up.....


I like them as ASW assets, or at least I did so in Witp. Jury is still out in AE, but I intend to try them in that role.


I generally stick some fighters on them and use them for extra cap or to cap invasion fleets/convoys. The Japanese historically used them mostly as aircraft transports IIRC.

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Post #: 26
RE: IJN Carrier Air Groups - 9/18/2009 2:49:58 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

I plan on using them to train "carrier capable" to "carrier trained" groups.

Edit: Kind of how the Hosho was used historically. Also, they can be used as aircraft transports.


Side Note: I am surprised that Hosho is now a 20-A/C capable ship, though only 6 torps on board. Set the airgroups to expand, and it's 10 Zeros and 10 Kates; more valuable than it used to be.

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RE: IJN Carrier Air Groups - 9/18/2009 2:57:38 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

I plan on using them to train "carrier capable" to "carrier trained" groups.

Edit: Kind of how the Hosho was used historically. Also, they can be used as aircraft transports.


Side Note: I am surprised that Hosho is now a 20-A/C capable ship, though only 6 torps on board. Set the airgroups to expand, and it's 10 Zeros and 10 Kates; more valuable than it used to be.


Technically it should only have a capacity of 11, the air wing was reduced when it was converted to a training carrier.

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Post #: 28
RE: IJN Carrier Air Groups - 9/18/2009 4:47:36 PM   
TheTomDude


Posts: 372
Joined: 3/3/2006
From: Switzerland
Status: offline 		WARNING:
Jap CVE Airgroups will become available over time. At least in scen 1 I can see the airgroups of Unyo, Chuyo aso......in the "Aircraft Reinforcement" screen becoming available at around mid to end 1943. The same for CVL Ryujo (or was it Ryuho?) which is due to arrive late 1942. I can't check right now, so I'm not sure if these CVE airgroups come "carrier trained" or only "capable".
The player has to decide if he will wait until late 43 for the designated airgroups or if he likes to station other "capable" airgroups earlier on the CVEs.
I usually use them to ferry airgroups from/to Japan. Historically this was also their main job aside from convoy duty later in the war. So I do not need airgroups for these CVEs. I even think about using those arriving airgroups as land based units. I guess they might live longer this way.


< Message edited by TheTomDude -- 9/18/2009 4:50:58 PM >

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Post #: 29
RE: IJN Carrier Air Groups - 9/18/2009 5:09:36 PM   
Admiral DadMan


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Joined: 2/22/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheTomDude

WARNING:
Jap CVE Airgroups will become available over time. At least in scen 1 I can see the airgroups of Unyo, Chuyo aso......in the "Aircraft Reinforcement" screen becoming available at around mid to end 1943. The same for CVL Ryujo (or was it Ryuho?) which is due to arrive late 1942. I can't check right now, so I'm not sure if these CVE airgroups come "carrier trained" or only "capable".
The player has to decide if he will wait until late 43 for the designated airgroups or if he likes to station other "capable" airgroups earlier on the CVEs.
I usually use them to ferry airgroups from/to Japan. Historically this was also their main job aside from convoy duty later in the war. So I do not need airgroups for these CVEs. I even think about using those arriving airgroups as land based units. I guess they might live longer this way.


They come "Trained"

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Scenario 127: "Scraps of Paper"
(\../)
(O.o)
(> <)

CVB Langley:

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Post #: 30
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