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RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land

 
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RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 8/31/2009 7:03:42 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Mike

Let me know when you are happy with the final product. This is how it looks at present:

[4261 Submarine - by Mike Dubost]
.P These World In Flames counters represent a number of submarines rather than
any specific individual submarine. The dates printed on the back of the counters
do not relate in any meaningful way with build dates for the various classes of
United States Navy (USN) submarine class and therefore the counter date in most
cases should be ignored. These US submarine write-ups contain the usual technical
data, followed by a brief history of one or more submarines from each of the main
classes that saw action during the Second World War.
.P When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, the USN had a total of one hundred
and eleven large and medium submarines, of which fifty-five large and eighteen of
the medium type were assigned to the Pacific and Asiatic Fleets. There were a
further seventy-seven under construction. The average large fleet submarine had a
displacement of around fifteen hundred tons, while the smaller S-boats had
displacements of approximately one thousand tons, and the largest fleet submarine
displaced around two thousand seven hundred tons.
.P At the time of the outbreak of war in Europe, the US was a signatory to the
London Naval Treaty of 1930, which prohibited unrestricted submarine warfare
(Article 22 required attackers to first place passengers, crew, and ship’s papers
in “a place of safety”). USN sub doctrine therefore emphasized attacks on capital
ships, especially battlecruiser types and larger. On the 7th December, the day of
the attack on Pearl Harbor, the USN concluded that the survival of the US was at
risk in the war, and consequently ordered the use of unrestricted air and
submarine warfare. According to Samuel Eliot Morison, combat vessels were still
considered prime targets, but attacks on merchant ships were of major importance.
.P Unlike German U-boats which operated in so-called wolf-packs for greater
effectiveness, US submarines typically operated alone, due in part to the large
distances which had to be covered from their few bases. US submarines would
usually attack while submerged, using periscope observations to gather the data
to input into the mechanical targeting computer.
.P Initially, US torpedoes were defective. However, once the torpedo faults were
corrected, US submarines became very effective attackers. Nearly one third of
Japanese combat vessels lost were due to the submarine service, as well as nearly
two thirds of Japanese merchant losses.
.P
.P This write-up looks at the two-ship Narwhal-class that were designed as
submarine cruisers and fitted with a pair of 6-inch deck guns. The design was one
of several completed between the wars in order to develop a series of fleet
submarines to perform various missions in the vast Pacific Ocean areas. The
larger size needed for a second deck gun meant that this class was easier to
detect and a with clumsier handling, although they were faster on the surface
than the older S-boats."
.P This write-up specifically looks at the USS Nautilus.
.P
.B Name: USS Nautilus
.B Engine(s) output: 5,633 hp (Surfaced) 1,600 hp (Submerged)
.B Top Speed: 17.44 knots (Surfaced), 8 knots (Submerged)
.B Main armament: 6 x 21-inch torpedo tubes and 2 x 6-inch (152mm) gun
.B Displacement (Fully Submerged): 3,960 tons
.B Diving Depth: 300 ft
.P USS Nautilus was launched in March 1930 at Mare Island Naval Shipyard in
San Francisco Bay and completed four months later. She completed a total of
fourteen war patrols, stretching from Midway to the Solomon Islands to the Kurile
Islands.
.P On her first war patrol in June 1942, Nautilus participated in the battle of
Midway. After sighting and unsuccessfully attacking a large force of warships,
Nautilus was attacked by the destroyer Arashi. As the destroyer was returning to
the main force of Imperial Japanese Navy (IJN) vessels, she was spotted and
tracked back to the carriers by one of the groups of dive-bombers from the USS
Enterprise. The finding of the IJN carriers by the dive-bombers was thus due in
part to the presence of the Nautilus.
.P Her second war patrol was the raid on Makin in August 1942 (see USS Argonaut).
Following this, she undertook three further patrols between September 1942 and
April 1943 that netted seven merchant ships sunk. In the last of these three
patrols she took carried troops for landings on Attu.
.P Her sixth war patrol began in September 1943 and was a photo-reconnaissance
mission to the Gilbert Islands prior to the invasion of Tarawa. For her seventh
war patrol, she was sent back to gather last-minute surf and weather readings.
During this mission, she was struck by friendly fire from the destroyer Ringgold.
Despite significant damage to the conning tower, she was repaired and
successfully completed the mission.
.P Subsequent patrols saw her in the southwest Pacific, operating off the
Philippines. During her thirteenth war patrol, she was called upon to destroy the
US submarine Darter, which had run aground on a reef and could not be recovered.
Efforts to keep the submarine out of enemy hands by destroying her with torpedoes
failed due to the shallow water around the reef, so the 6-inch deck guns of the
Nautilus were used to accomplish the task.
.P After completing her fourteenth war patrol, Nautilus was sent back to the US
to be decommissioned.
.P USS Nautilus was scrapped in November 1945.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Mike Dubost)
Post #: 1381
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 9/1/2009 2:36:36 AM   
Mike Dubost

 

Posts: 273
Joined: 8/24/2008
From: Sacramento, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Mike

Let me know when you are happy with the final product. This is how it looks at present:

[4261 Submarine - by Mike Dubost]
.P These World In Flames counters represent a number of submarines rather than
any specific individual submarine. The dates printed on the back of the counters
do not relate in any meaningful way with build dates for the various classes of
United States Navy (USN) submarine class and therefore the counter date in most
cases should be ignored. These US submarine write-ups contain the usual technical
data, followed by a brief history of one or more submarines from each of the main
classes that saw action during the Second World War.
.P When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, the USN had a total of one hundred
and eleven large and medium submarines, of which fifty-five large and eighteen of
the medium type were assigned to the Pacific and Asiatic Fleets. There were a
further seventy-seven under construction. The average large fleet submarine had a
displacement of around fifteen hundred tons, while the smaller S-boats had
displacements of approximately one thousand tons, and the largest fleet submarine
displaced around two thousand seven hundred tons.
.P At the time of the outbreak of war in Europe, the US was a signatory to the
London Naval Treaty of 1930, which prohibited unrestricted submarine warfare
(Article 22 required attackers to first place passengers, crew, and ship’s papers
in “a place of safety”). USN sub doctrine therefore emphasized attacks on capital
ships, especially battlecruiser types and larger. On the 7th December, the day of
the attack on Pearl Harbor, the USN concluded that the survival of the US was at
risk in the war, and consequently ordered the use of unrestricted air and
submarine warfare. According to Samuel Eliot Morison, combat vessels were still
considered prime targets, but attacks on merchant ships were of major importance.
.P Unlike German U-boats which operated in so-called wolf-packs for greater
effectiveness, US submarines typically operated alone, due in part to the large
distances which had to be covered from their few bases. US submarines would
usually attack while submerged, using periscope observations to gather the data
to input into the mechanical targeting computer.
.P Initially, US torpedoes were defective. However, once the torpedo faults were
corrected, US submarines became very effective attackers. Nearly one third of
Japanese combat vessels lost were due to the submarine service, as well as nearly
two thirds of Japanese merchant losses.
.P
.P This write-up looks at the two-ship Narwhal-class that were designed as
submarine cruisers and fitted with a pair of 6-inch deck guns. The design was one
of several completed between the wars in order to develop a series of fleet
submarines to perform various missions in the vast Pacific Ocean areas. The
larger size needed for a second deck gun meant that this class was easier to
detect and a with clumsier handling, although they were faster on the surface
than the older S-boats."
.P This write-up specifically looks at the USS Nautilus.
.P
.B Name: USS Nautilus
.B Engine(s) output: 5,633 hp (Surfaced) 1,600 hp (Submerged)
.B Top Speed: 17.44 knots (Surfaced), 8 knots (Submerged)
.B Main armament: 6 x 21-inch torpedo tubes and 2 x 6-inch (152mm) gun
.B Displacement (Fully Submerged): 3,960 tons
.B Diving Depth: 300 ft
.P USS Nautilus was launched in March 1930 at Mare Island Naval Shipyard in
San Francisco Bay and completed four months later. She completed a total of
fourteen war patrols, stretching from Midway to the Solomon Islands to the Kurile
Islands.
.P On her first war patrol in June 1942, Nautilus participated in the battle of
Midway. After sighting and unsuccessfully attacking a large force of warships,
Nautilus was attacked by the destroyer Arashi. As the destroyer was returning to
the main force of Imperial Japanese Navy (IJN) vessels, she was spotted and
tracked back to the carriers by one of the groups of dive-bombers from the USS
Enterprise. The finding of the IJN carriers by the dive-bombers was thus due in
part to the presence of the Nautilus.
.P Her second war patrol was the raid on Makin in August 1942 (see USS Argonaut).
Following this, she undertook three further patrols between September 1942 and
April 1943 that netted seven merchant ships sunk. In the last of these three
patrols she took carried troops for landings on Attu.
.P Her sixth war patrol began in September 1943 and was a photo-reconnaissance
mission to the Gilbert Islands prior to the invasion of Tarawa. For her seventh
war patrol, she was sent back to gather last-minute surf and weather readings.
During this mission, she was struck by friendly fire from the destroyer Ringgold.
Despite significant damage to the conning tower, she was repaired and
successfully completed the mission.
.P Subsequent patrols saw her in the southwest Pacific, operating off the
Philippines. During her thirteenth war patrol, she was called upon to destroy the
US submarine Darter, which had run aground on a reef and could not be recovered.
Efforts to keep the submarine out of enemy hands by destroying her with torpedoes
failed due to the shallow water around the reef, so the 6-inch deck guns of the
Nautilus were used to accomplish the task.
.P After completing her fourteenth war patrol, Nautilus was sent back to the US
to be decommissioned.
.P USS Nautilus was scrapped in November 1945.



Per Morgil's comment above, how about if we make a minor amendment to say "...two-ship Narwhal-class of V-boats that were..." (note, bold text is to indicate addition)?

Otherwise, looks like a winner to me. I will work on the other subs.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1382
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 9/1/2009 10:42:28 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Dubost


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Mike

Let me know when you are happy with the final product. This is how it looks at present:

[4261 Submarine - by Mike Dubost]
.P These World In Flames counters represent a number of submarines rather than
any specific individual submarine. The dates printed on the back of the counters
do not relate in any meaningful way with build dates for the various classes of
United States Navy (USN) submarine class and therefore the counter date in most
cases should be ignored. These US submarine write-ups contain the usual technical
data, followed by a brief history of one or more submarines from each of the main
classes that saw action during the Second World War.
.P When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, the USN had a total of one hundred
and eleven large and medium submarines, of which fifty-five large and eighteen of
the medium type were assigned to the Pacific and Asiatic Fleets. There were a
further seventy-seven under construction. The average large fleet submarine had a
displacement of around fifteen hundred tons, while the smaller S-boats had
displacements of approximately one thousand tons, and the largest fleet submarine
displaced around two thousand seven hundred tons.
.P At the time of the outbreak of war in Europe, the US was a signatory to the
London Naval Treaty of 1930, which prohibited unrestricted submarine warfare
(Article 22 required attackers to first place passengers, crew, and ship’s papers
in “a place of safety”). USN sub doctrine therefore emphasized attacks on capital
ships, especially battlecruiser types and larger. On the 7th December, the day of
the attack on Pearl Harbor, the USN concluded that the survival of the US was at
risk in the war, and consequently ordered the use of unrestricted air and
submarine warfare. According to Samuel Eliot Morison, combat vessels were still
considered prime targets, but attacks on merchant ships were of major importance.
.P Unlike German U-boats which operated in so-called wolf-packs for greater
effectiveness, US submarines typically operated alone, due in part to the large
distances which had to be covered from their few bases. US submarines would
usually attack while submerged, using periscope observations to gather the data
to input into the mechanical targeting computer.
.P Initially, US torpedoes were defective. However, once the torpedo faults were
corrected, US submarines became very effective attackers. Nearly one third of
Japanese combat vessels lost were due to the submarine service, as well as nearly
two thirds of Japanese merchant losses.
.P
.P This write-up looks at the two-ship Narwhal-class that were designed as
submarine cruisers and fitted with a pair of 6-inch deck guns. The design was one
of several completed between the wars in order to develop a series of fleet
submarines to perform various missions in the vast Pacific Ocean areas. The
larger size needed for a second deck gun meant that this class was easier to
detect and a with clumsier handling, although they were faster on the surface
than the older S-boats."
.P This write-up specifically looks at the USS Nautilus.
.P
.B Name: USS Nautilus
.B Engine(s) output: 5,633 hp (Surfaced) 1,600 hp (Submerged)
.B Top Speed: 17.44 knots (Surfaced), 8 knots (Submerged)
.B Main armament: 6 x 21-inch torpedo tubes and 2 x 6-inch (152mm) gun
.B Displacement (Fully Submerged): 3,960 tons
.B Diving Depth: 300 ft
.P USS Nautilus was launched in March 1930 at Mare Island Naval Shipyard in
San Francisco Bay and completed four months later. She completed a total of
fourteen war patrols, stretching from Midway to the Solomon Islands to the Kurile
Islands.
.P On her first war patrol in June 1942, Nautilus participated in the battle of
Midway. After sighting and unsuccessfully attacking a large force of warships,
Nautilus was attacked by the destroyer Arashi. As the destroyer was returning to
the main force of Imperial Japanese Navy (IJN) vessels, she was spotted and
tracked back to the carriers by one of the groups of dive-bombers from the USS
Enterprise. The finding of the IJN carriers by the dive-bombers was thus due in
part to the presence of the Nautilus.
.P Her second war patrol was the raid on Makin in August 1942 (see USS Argonaut).
Following this, she undertook three further patrols between September 1942 and
April 1943 that netted seven merchant ships sunk. In the last of these three
patrols she took carried troops for landings on Attu.
.P Her sixth war patrol began in September 1943 and was a photo-reconnaissance
mission to the Gilbert Islands prior to the invasion of Tarawa. For her seventh
war patrol, she was sent back to gather last-minute surf and weather readings.
During this mission, she was struck by friendly fire from the destroyer Ringgold.
Despite significant damage to the conning tower, she was repaired and
successfully completed the mission.
.P Subsequent patrols saw her in the southwest Pacific, operating off the
Philippines. During her thirteenth war patrol, she was called upon to destroy the
US submarine Darter, which had run aground on a reef and could not be recovered.
Efforts to keep the submarine out of enemy hands by destroying her with torpedoes
failed due to the shallow water around the reef, so the 6-inch deck guns of the
Nautilus were used to accomplish the task.
.P After completing her fourteenth war patrol, Nautilus was sent back to the US
to be decommissioned.
.P USS Nautilus was scrapped in November 1945.



Per Morgil's comment above, how about if we make a minor amendment to say "...two-ship Narwhal-class of V-boats that were..." (note, bold text is to indicate addition)?

Otherwise, looks like a winner to me. I will work on the other subs.

Warspite1

Mike, seeing the V-class added to the write-up made me wonder what these were. I have therefore amended the section about the Narwhal-class and prefaced it with an brief explanation of what the "V-boats" were.

.P This write-up looks at the two-ship Narwhal-class. This class provided two of
the eight submarines that, together, were known as the V-class. The "V-class"
contained four individual classes of submarine that were completed between 1924
and 1934. They were designed to perform a variety of roles in the vast Pacific
Ocean areas.
.P The Narwhals were large, cruiser submarines. They would prove to be the
largest submarines built by the USN until the construction of the first nuclear
submarines. They were fitted with six torpedo tubes and a pair of six-inch deck
guns. The larger size needed for a second deck gun meant that this class was
easier to detect and with clumsier handling, although they were faster on the
surface than the older S-boats.
.P Four additional torpedo tubes were fitted in the early forties and they also
received a change in propulsion unit, moving to a diesel-electric unit to try and
cure the poor reliability problems suffered pre-war.



_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Mike Dubost)
Post #: 1383
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 9/2/2009 3:49:49 AM   
Mike Dubost

 

Posts: 273
Joined: 8/24/2008
From: Sacramento, CA
Status: offline 		One small correction, the V-boat upgrade in the early 1940s was to a more reliable diesel-electric system, rather than from something else to diesel-electric. The Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships indicates that the original, specially-built, engines failed to produce their design power and some developed dangerous crankshaft explosions. My reaction was "that could ruin your whole afternoon".

Otherwise, I accept the edit.

On a different note, what is your opinion about writing up the Squalus. The accident was pre-Pearl Harbor, but I am inclined to include it as it was a significant event in the US submarine service history, and the sub was renamed, was recommissioned, and saw service in the war.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1384
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 9/2/2009 6:52:52 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Dubost

One small correction, the V-boat upgrade in the early 1940s was to a more reliable diesel-electric system, rather than from something else to diesel-electric. The Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships indicates that the original, specially-built, engines failed to produce their design power and some developed dangerous crankshaft explosions. My reaction was "that could ruin your whole afternoon".

Otherwise, I accept the edit.

On a different note, what is your opinion about writing up the Squalus. The accident was pre-Pearl Harbor, but I am inclined to include it as it was a significant event in the US submarine service history, and the sub was renamed, was recommissioned, and saw service in the war.

Warspite1

My view is that the Sargo-class has some interesting stories and is an important class that needs writing-up. If you write about USS Sailfish, you can include her Squalus pre-Pearl Harbor story. On a couple of CW counters I have added a second and even a third boat of the class as there were sufficient interesting stories. The Sargo`s may be a candidate for this?


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Mike Dubost)
Post #: 1385
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 9/2/2009 9:31:28 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		HELP REQUIRED PLEASE

World In Flames has six carriers of the Midway-class available for building. This ties in with the six projected Midways. However, there are also two, even more powerful carriers that came with Mech In Flames - Forrestal and Saratoga II.
Their date on the back is 1944 - same as the earliest Midways. The Forrestals (successors to the Midway-class) - if indeed these two are supposed to represent the first two of this class - were not laid down until the 1950`s.

Question 1 - Does anyone know why ADG would have included these carriers in WIF, getting on for ten years before they were first laid down? Strange....

Question 2 - The names for the three later Midways - Atlantic, Guadalcanal and Normandy - are these made up, but based on naming convention for carriers, or were they actually chosen had the ships been built?


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/2/2009 9:54:37 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1386
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 9/3/2009 1:04:41 AM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

HELP REQUIRED PLEASE

World In Flames has six carriers of the Midway-class available for building. This ties in with the six projected Midways. However, there are also two, even more powerful carriers that came with Mech In Flames - Forrestal and Saratoga II.
Their date on the back is 1944 - same as the earliest Midways. The Forrestals (successors to the Midway-class) - if indeed these two are supposed to represent the first two of this class - were not laid down until the 1950`s.

Question 1 - Does anyone know why ADG would have included these carriers in WIF, getting on for ten years before they were first laid down? Strange....

Question 2 - The names for the three later Midways - Atlantic, Guadalcanal and Normandy - are these made up, but based on naming convention for carriers, or were they actually chosen had the ships been built?




Go here


_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1387
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 9/3/2009 8:33:57 AM   
hellfirejet


Posts: 1052
Joined: 12/16/2008
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		Cheers Warspite1 excellent write up on Scharnhorst,been away again playing War In The Pacific Admirals Edition, I just love these games.

< Message edited by hellfirejet -- 9/3/2009 8:34:55 AM >

_____________________________

Regards,
Graham.

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction! Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1388
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 9/3/2009 7:42:40 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Question 1 - Does anyone know why ADG would have included these carriers in WIF, getting on for ten years before they were first laid down? Strange....

I suppose they are here as what if the war have been longer.
If the war had been longer, maybe the USA would have laid down much earlier.

quote:

Question 2 - The names for the three later Midways - Atlantic, Guadalcanal and Normandy - are these made up, but based on naming convention for carriers, or were they actually chosen had the ships been built?

Atlantic (CVB44) : cancelled 11.1.43
Guadalcanal (CVB56) : cancelled 28.3.45
Normandy (CVB57) : cancelled 28.3.45
I don't know if the names are made up, I think that they are not.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1389
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 9/3/2009 8:49:25 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline 		It would seem that Department of the Navy – Naval Historical Center, Navysite, Hazegray, Wikipedia, and Navsource say they are made up names.

But on a search for Guadalcanal "aircraft carrier" I found this at Department of the Navy – Naval Historical Center

< Message edited by Extraneous -- 9/3/2009 9:15:23 PM >

_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 1390
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 9/3/2009 9:11:17 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

It would seem that Department of the Navy – Naval Historical Center, Navysite, Hazegray, Wikipedia, and Navsource say they are made up names.

But on a search for Guadalcanal "aircraft carrier" I found this at Department of the Navy – Naval Historical Center

Warspite1

I could not see any reference to Guadalcanal at that link.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 1391
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 9/3/2009 9:16:05 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline 		Try now look at the line just before "The first Guadalcanal (CVE-60), an escort aircraft carrier".

This makes looking up the names easier Department of the Navy – Naval Historical Center – Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships.

< Message edited by Extraneous -- 9/3/2009 9:25:42 PM >

_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1392
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 9/3/2009 10:26:30 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		A change of scene now - two "what if" US counters:

[4036 Langley - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine(s) output: 6,500 hp
.B Top Speed: 15.5 knots
.B Main armament: 4 x 5-inch (127mm) guns
.B Aircraft: 30-36
.B Displacement (full load): 14,700 tons
.B Thickest armour: Unarmoured
.P USS Langley was the United States Navy`s (USN) first aircraft carrier. She
began life as the fleet collier Jupiter and her conversion to a carrier started
in 1919. She was named after the famous American astronomer and aviation pioneer
Samuel Pierpont Langley.
.P Completed in March 1922, she was to be the sole USN carrier until the arrival
of the Lexington and Saratoga in 1928. During that time, she was of vital
importance in helping the USN develop ideas that would be incorporated into their
future carriers.
.P The technical details above are as at the time of her conversion, but by the
time of Pearl Harbor, Langley was no longer a fleet carrier. In 1936 she was
converted once more, this time into a seaplane tender. As such, she is actually
a World In Flames "what if" counter, as her new role meant she no longer had the
capability to operate aircraft.
.P Her Second World War career was to be brief. She was stationed at Manilla in
the Philippines from September 1939, and when the Japanese attacked the United
States in December 1941 she was transferred initially to the Dutch East Indies
and then, at the beginning of 1942, Australia.
.P When ABDA, American, British, Dutch, Australian Command was formed in early
1942, Langley became part of the fleet under the American, Admiral Hart. Her role
was largely to assist the supply of aircraft to the Dutch East Indies as the
Allies tried to hold back the Japanese invaders during February 1942.
.P Her last operation came at the end of that month. She left Australia carrying
fighter aircraft that were destined for United States Army Air Forces fighting
alongside the Dutch. Her convoy left Fremantle on the 22nd February and she
safely delivered her cargo at Tjilatjap, Java. In the early hours of the 27th
February, she was not far from Tjilatjap when she was met by her escort of two
destroyers for the return journey. Suddenly, a force of nine Japanese bombers
attacked the US flotilla. Langley was hit numerous times and was soon on fire.
However, she didn`t sink and it was left to her escorts to deliver the torpedoes
that sent her to the bottom of the sea.


[4134 Newport News - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine output: 120,000 hp
.B Top Speed: 33 knots
.B Main armament: 9 x 8-inch (203mm), 12 x 5-inch (127mm) guns
.B Displacement (full load): 20,934 tons
.B Thickest armour: 6-inch (belt)
.P The Des Moines` were the last all-gun class of heavy cruisers built for
the United States Navy (USN), before the coming of the missile age made this type
of ship redundant.
.P There were originally twelve ships envisaged, although eight were cancelled
before being ordered and one of the original four was cancelled before being laid
down. The remaining three ships were only completed over three years after the
end of the Second World War. World In Flames allows the American player to build
up to four of these powerful cruisers.
.P The main armament was a new quick-firing version of the 8-inch gun, mounted in
three triple-turrets. Not only were the guns much quicker firing than the
previous type, but they could also fire at high angles, thus allowing an anti-
aircraft (AA) capability. That said, the AA armament was powerful in its own
right, with twelve dual-purpose 5-inch guns, no less than twenty-four 3-inch and
another twenty-four close-range 20mm guns.
.P The ships were also well armoured with thick armour protection throughout the
ship. Despite this, they were still capable of 33 knots and so perfect in the
aircraft carrier escort role.
.P In line with naming convention, the four ships were named after large cities
in the United States.
.P USS Newport News was completed in January 1949, and when she was finally
de-commissioned in 1975, she was the very last of the heavy cruiser type. She was
scrapped in 1993.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1393
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 9/6/2009 12:59:55 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Subject to any last minute tidy ups (I am still debating the final technical data to be inserted and I want what a ship is named after in all write-ups where possible), the last of the named German surface ships are done! . Please see below for the write-up of the Tirpitz. It`s funny how you can get attached to some of these ships - I actually felt sorry for the "Lonely Queen" while learning about her

I have Warspite (of course ), HFJ has Scharnhorst, does anyone have any favourite ships of WWII?


[4774 Tirpitz - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine(s) output: 138,000 hp
.B Top Speed: 29 knots
.B Main armament: 8 x 15-inch (381mm), 12 x 5.9-inch (150mm) guns
.B Displacement (full load): 52,600 tons
.B Thickest armour: 12.5-inch (belt)
.P The Bismarcks were the first battleships built for the German Navy after
World War I. The first ship was ordered in November 1935, after the conclusion of
the Anglo-German Naval Treaty. Both ships were laid down in 1936, although
neither were completed by the start of the Second World War.
.P Their design was based upon the First World War vintage Baden-class and this
brought with it limitations to their defensive capability. The main problem being
the lack of deck armour that made the ships vulnerable to plunging shell fire.
They were however, very difficult ships to sink, courtesy of their extensive
watertight compartments.
.P They were powerful ships with a 15-inch main armament that, combined with a
speed of 29 knots, made them at least equal to anything the Royal Navy could
offer. They also featured an excellent fire control system, but the effects of
this were frequently hampered by problems with the German shells, that on many
occasions failed to explode. The Bismarcks provided a stable gun platform thanks
largely to their wide beam. They could have benefited from a dual purpose
secondary armament that would have negated the need for separate anti-aircraft
(AA) guns, but the Germans had other priorities during the inter-war years.
.P The class also had a much greater range than their British contemporaries,
ideal for the commerce raiding activity that they were expected to carry out.
This gave these Kriegsmarine ships more flexibility in their dealings with the
battleships of the Royal Navy.
.P The largest ships ever completed for the Kriegsmarine were named, fittingly,
after two of the country`s most prominent characters of the late 19th and early
20th centuries; Otto von Bismarck, the first Chancellor of the unified Germany,
and Grand Admiral Alfred von Tirpitz, who helped in the building of the Kaiser`s
Navy in the lead up to the First World War.
.P Tirpitz was completed in February 1941 and from then until January 1942 she
undertook work-up and crew training in the Baltic Sea. The only time she was
called to action in that time was in September, when she was part of the Northern
Group, Baltic Fleet, that was tasked with ensuring the Soviet Navy did not sortie
into the Baltic (see Admiral Scheer).
.P By the time she was ready for active duty, responsibility for the war against
Allied merchant shipping in the Atlantic had passed over completely to the U-boat
arm. After the loss of her sister, Bismarck, in May 1941 (see Bismarck) and the
subsequent return to Germany of the three surface ships from France (see Prinz
Eugen), the Kriegsmarine had a different role to play.
.P Hitler was always worried about an Allied attack on Norway and he wanted his
surface fleet to guard his northern flank by basing themselves in the fjords of
Norway. From there, they could threaten both a break-out into the Atlantic and an
attack upon the Allied convoys to the Soviet Union. As a fleet-in-being, the
Kriegsmarine could more effectively tie-up British naval units more urgently
needed elsewhere.
.P Therefore in January, Tirpitz and the heavy cruiser Admiral Scheer were
ordered to Trondheim, Norway, along with a destroyer escort. For Tirpitz, it was
the start of a long and lonely existence, often based in Norway`s inhospitable
northern fjords and from where she would be more hunted than hunter. Local
Norwegians gave her a nickname during her time there; the Lonely Queen of the
North.
.P The Allied convoys to the Soviet Union had begun shortly after the Germans
launched Operation Barbarossa in June 1941. However, the first convoys had been
able to sail unimpeded to Russia, with the elements as their only enemy. The
Germans later countered with aircraft from Norway and U-boats, but, until March
1942, the surface fleet had not been involved. With the arrival in Norway of
Tirpitz that changed. The battleship, commanded by Admiral Ciliax, took part in
her first operation to find and destroy a convoy that month in an operation code-
named Sportpalast.
.P The British were running two Arctic convoys; PQ12 an east bound convoy to the
Soviet Union, and QP8 making the return journey. PQ12 had sailed from the UK at
the end of February with the usual close and distant escorts. The distant escort
was particularly strong with two battleships, a battlecruiser and an aircraft
carrier all available. QP8 meanwhile had left Russia a week later and the two
convoys, sailing further south than usual due to ice, passed each other on the
7th March. German aerial reconnaissance had spotted PQ12 two days previously, at
which point Tirpitz was ordered to sail for the Arctic Ocean with a destroyer
escort.
.P The Arctic weather often made air reconnaissance impossible and so what
followed next was a confused action as a result of both sides having limited
intelligence on their opponents position. Admiral Tovey, in command of the Royal
Navy`s distant escort was made aware of the fact that Tirpitz had left port and
sailed east, although the submarine that located her had no chance of shadowing
the enemy flotilla. By the early afternoon of the 7th, Ciliax, Without realising,
had sailed past QP8 without making contact, although a Soviet straggler from that
convoy was sunk by the destroyer Friedrich Ihn in the late afternoon. The Russian
ship did manage to get a distress signal off before sinking.
.P For the remainder of the 7th and into the early hours of the 8th, both sides
tried desperately to find one another, but without success. Eventually, low on
fuel, Ciliax had no choice but to detach his destroyers and ordered them back to
Norway. The Royal Navy was no better off as its destroyers too had to return to
base to refuel.
.P In the early evening of the 8th, a frustrated Ciliax decided to return to
Norway too. At 0240hrs on the morning of the 9th, Tovey was given the news that
Tirpitz was heading south. His force were by now many miles north of the
battleship. Four hours later, a reconnaissance flight of six Albacores took-off
from the aircraft carrier Victorious. They were followed by twelve torpedo-armed
Albacores. At 0917hrs Tipritz was sighted and eight minutes later, the twelve
torpedo equipped aircraft went into the attack. Tirpitz put up her considerable
AA defence and two British aircraft were shot down without any damage to Tirpitz.
She reached the safety of Vestfjord later that day and shortly after, sailed
south for Trondheim. For both sides, it was an unsatisfactory case of what might
have been; particularly so for Tirpitz as she was never to get as good an
opportunity again.
.P The British responded to the threat that Tirpitz now represented by launching
three separate Royal Air Force (RAF) attacks on the battleship. The first attack
took place on the 31st March by thirty-four Halifax bombers, but the RAF failed
to register a hit and in the process lost five aircraft. The second and third
attempts, staged over consecutive nights in the following month, were just as
disappointing for the British. Lancasters and Halifaxes were used in both attacks
and again no hits were recorded for the loss of seven aircraft.
.P The next time Tirpitz was in action, the most serious losses inflicted on the
Arctic convoys were recorded; however Tirpitz was not directly responsible for
this. Operation Rösselsprung was formulated in June. It involved the Kriegsmarine
setting up two groups: Group I was under the command of Admiral Schniewind aboard
Tirpitz, and consisted of his Flagship, the heavy cruiser Hipper and four
destroyers; Group II was commanded by Vice-Admiral Kummetz, aboard the heavy
cruiser Lützow and also contained Lützow`s sister ship Admiral Scheer and six
destroyers. For this operation the Luftwaffe were reinforced with additional
torpedo armed aircraft and their would also be a strong U-boat presence.
.P The target was the Allied outbound convoy PQ17 that contained thirty-four
merchant ships. PQ17 left the UK in mid-June and was first sighted by the Germans
on the 1st July. On the 2nd, Group I left Trondheim and headed for Altafjord in
northern Norway. Two destroyers were damaged after running aground and similar
problems beset Group II when Lützow also ran aground and had to put into port for
repairs.
.P The remaining ships, Tirpitz, Hipper, Scheer and their six destroyer escorts
sailed from Altafjord at midday on the 5th July. However, the Germans picked up
British signal traffic that confirmed that the German ships had been spotted and,
fearful of a British air attack from Victorious, Schniewind was ordered to return
to Norway. However, upon hearing the news that Tirpitz was at sea, the Admiralty
ordered the scattering of PQ17. With the merchant ships apart and unprotected,
the U-boats and Luftwaffe closed in. Twenty-four of the merchants were sunk
either by bombs or torpedoes.
.P At the end of October, Tirpitz was sent south to Trondheim once more in order
to refit. It was only in March 1943 that she was ready to head back north, where
she would be in a position to threaten the Arctic convoys again. By this time
though, the Arctic convoys had stopped for the summer and would not restart until
the autumn.
.P In September, Tirpitz undertook her next operation, Sizilien, in company with
the battlecruiser Scharnhorst and nine destroyers. This operation was designed to
attack enemy installations on Spitzbergen in the Arctic Ocean, which the Royal
Navy was using to a limited extent to assist the convoys to and from the Soviet
Union. Troops were landed from the destroyers and after their successful attack
the fleet returned to Norway without incident.
.P The end of September saw Tirpitz on the defensive once more. The British tried
a midget submarine attack that proved more successful than the previous bombing
operations. Six submarines were used to attack the three German surface ships
that were based in northern Norway at that time: three to attack Tirpitz, two for
Scharnhorst, and one for Lützow. Only Tirpitz`s attackers had any success and
although all three submarines were lost and the Tirpitz not sunk, she was quite
badly damaged and repairs took until March 1944 to complete. This was just the
start of a series of attacks on the battleship; first was an attack by Soviet
aircraft in mid-February which caused light damage and this was followed up by a
number of Fleet Air Arm operations and finally, when these proved ultimately
unsuccessful, the RAF.
.P The most successful of the Fleet Air Arm attacks was their first, Operation
Tungsten, carried out on the 3rd April 1944. This attack involved aircraft from
the fleet carriers Victorious and Furious and four escort carriers in support.
The attack was carried out by a combination of Hellcats, Corsairs and Barracuda
aircraft. A total of fourteen hits were recorded against Tirpitz, resulting in
438 casualties, 122 of whom were killed. The damage caused was never properly
repaired, although she was able to put to sea one more time. Fortunately for the
Germans, the three follow-up operations were frustrated by poor weather and then
in July and August, no less than five further attacks were launched. In all, just
two hits, that caused minor damage each time were recorded, at a cost of thirteen
aircraft.
.P Given the lack of success, the RAF were given responsibility for finishing off
Tirpitz. The first attack was carried out on the 15th September using Lancaster
bombers carrying 12,000lb bombs. Only one hit was recorded, but this damaged her
bow and effectively disabled her. A second attack on the 29th October resulted in
no damage, but two weeks later, on the 12th November, Tirpitz was finally sunk.
The coup-de-grace was delivered by thirty-two Lancasters, that scored three hits
and two near misses with their 12,000lb bombs. She capsized and sank, taking with
her, 1006 officers and men.
.P Tirpitz was slowly scrapped over many years.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/6/2009 2:12:43 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1394
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 9/7/2009 4:31:51 AM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3191
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		On the Langley, you might want to mention that she is only a 'What If' counter in that by starting in the construction pool, the US player has the option of spending build points to make her back into an operational CV again. I've always thought she should be treated like the Bearn and the US player could build a TRS out of her hull instead. The Bearn in US hands became a aircraft transport ship somewhat like the Langley; I don't think the Langley was a pure seaplane tender, there was a different ship stationed in the Phillipines that was a dedicated seaplane tender. When the Langley was sunk, she had just delivered a load of P-40s to Java.

Also, after that great synopsis of the career of the Tirpitz, that last sentence leaves you hanging quite a bit. So....the Norwegians slowly took the ship apart where she lay, after the war? They raised it and then scrapped it? A lot of people would be pretty familiar with the Tirpitz and her history but not have a clue about the fate of the hull. Could we get at least a few more words there?


My favorite ship is usually whichever one just rolled a 1/10 split, threaded it's way through the enemy task force and sank an enemy fleet carrier, devastating enemy morale for a month at least. The Edinburgh was my last cardboard ship to accomplish this, taking out the Shokaku off South Africa (with that nasty 7 range Zero on board) in the summer of 1942 in a game last year.

In the real war, I've always followed any detail about the Exeter.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1395
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 9/7/2009 1:19:48 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline 		 
quote:

ORIGINAL:  warspite1

A change of scene now - two "what if" US counters:

[4036 Langley - by Robert Jenkins]
.B   Engine(s) output: 6,500 hp
.B   Top Speed: 15.5 knots
.B   Main armament: 4 x 5-inch (127mm) guns
.B   Aircraft: 30-36
.B   Displacement (full load): 14,700 tons
.B   Thickest armour: Unarmoured
.P     USS Langley was the United States Navy`s (USN) first aircraft carrier. She
began life as the fleet collier Jupiter and her conversion to a carrier started
in 1919. She was named after the famous American astronomer and aviation pioneer
Samuel Pierpont Langley.
.P Completed in March 1922, she was to be the sole USN carrier until the arrival
of the Lexington and Saratoga in 1928. During that time, she was of vital
importance in helping the USN develop ideas that would be incorporated into their
future carriers.
.P The technical details above are as at the time of her conversion, but by the
time of Pearl Harbor, Langley was no longer a fleet carrier. In 1936 she was
converted once more, this time into a seaplane tender. As such, she is actually
a World In Flames "what if" counter, as her new role meant she no longer had the
capability to operate aircraft.
.P Her Second World War career was to be brief. She was stationed at Manilla in
the Philippines from September 1939, and when the Japanese attacked the United
States in December 1941 she was transferred initially to the Dutch East Indies
and then, at the beginning of 1942, Australia.
.P When ABDA, American, British, Dutch, Australian Command was formed in early
1942, Langley became part of the fleet under the American, Admiral Hart. Her role
was largely to assist the supply of aircraft to the Dutch East Indies as the
Allies tried to hold back the Japanese invaders during February 1942.
quote:

.P Her last operation came at the end of that month. She left Australia carrying
fighter aircraft that were destined for United States Army Air Forces fighting
alongside the Dutch. Her convoy left Fremantle on the 22nd February and she
safely delivered her cargo at Tjilatjap, Java. In the early hours of the 27th
February, she was not far from Tjilatjap when she was met by her escort of two
destroyers for the return journey. Suddenly, a force of nine Japanese bombers
attacked the US flotilla. Langley was hit numerous times and was soon on fire.
However, she didn`t sink and it was left to her escorts to deliver the torpedoes
that sent her to the bottom of the sea.




She left on her final mission on February 22 where she successfully delivered thirty-two P40 fighter aircraft of the USAAF 49th Pursuit Group from Fremantle, Australia to Tjilatjap, Java. But while returning on February 27 at 11:40 while 75 miles (120km) south of Tjilatjap. The Langley and her anti-submarine escort the USS Whipple (DD-217) and the USS Edsall (DD-219) were attacked by nine Mitsubishi G4M (Betty) bombers. The first two waves missed her but the third wave scored 5 hits on the Langley. At 13:32 with a 10 degree list and having gone dead in the water with her engine rooms flooded, the abandon ship order was given. To avoid having her fall into enemy hands the escorts used their 4-inch guns and 2 torpedoes to sink her.


< Message edited by Extraneous -- 9/7/2009 1:25:53 PM >

_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 1396
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 9/7/2009 8:24:04 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

On the Langley, you might want to mention that she is only a 'What If' counter in that by starting in the construction pool, the US player has the option of spending build points to make her back into an operational CV again.

Warspite1

Good point brian brian - I shall insert something into the write-up accordingly

brian brian

I've always thought she should be treated like the Bearn and the US player could build a TRS out of her hull instead. The Bearn in US hands became a aircraft transport ship somewhat like the Langley;

Warspite1

I assume this is because the US also were able to make use of other French shipping too. The single Langley counter on her own would not qualify for a TRS.

brian brian

I don't think the Langley was a pure seaplane tender, there was a different ship stationed in the Phillipines that was a dedicated seaplane tender .

Warspite1

What source have you used? - all mine suggest she was a seaplane tender - although clearly with capacity to ferry a lot of fighters.

brian brian

A lot of people would be pretty familiar with the Tirpitz and her history but not have a clue about the fate of the hull. Could we get at least a few more words there?

Warspite1

I`ll have a look at this.

brian brian

In the real war, I've always followed any detail about the Exeter.




< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/7/2009 9:27:19 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 1397
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 9/7/2009 8:28:32 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

 
quote:

ORIGINAL:  warspite1

A change of scene now - two "what if" US counters:

[4036 Langley - by Robert Jenkins]
.B   Engine(s) output: 6,500 hp
.B   Top Speed: 15.5 knots
.B   Main armament: 4 x 5-inch (127mm) guns
.B   Aircraft: 30-36
.B   Displacement (full load): 14,700 tons
.B   Thickest armour: Unarmoured
.P     USS Langley was the United States Navy`s (USN) first aircraft carrier. She
began life as the fleet collier Jupiter and her conversion to a carrier started
in 1919. She was named after the famous American astronomer and aviation pioneer
Samuel Pierpont Langley.
.P Completed in March 1922, she was to be the sole USN carrier until the arrival
of the Lexington and Saratoga in 1928. During that time, she was of vital
importance in helping the USN develop ideas that would be incorporated into their
future carriers.
.P The technical details above are as at the time of her conversion, but by the
time of Pearl Harbor, Langley was no longer a fleet carrier. In 1936 she was
converted once more, this time into a seaplane tender. As such, she is actually
a World In Flames "what if" counter, as her new role meant she no longer had the
capability to operate aircraft.
.P Her Second World War career was to be brief. She was stationed at Manilla in
the Philippines from September 1939, and when the Japanese attacked the United
States in December 1941 she was transferred initially to the Dutch East Indies
and then, at the beginning of 1942, Australia.
.P When ABDA, American, British, Dutch, Australian Command was formed in early
1942, Langley became part of the fleet under the American, Admiral Hart. Her role
was largely to assist the supply of aircraft to the Dutch East Indies as the
Allies tried to hold back the Japanese invaders during February 1942.
quote:

.P Her last operation came at the end of that month. She left Australia carrying
fighter aircraft that were destined for United States Army Air Forces fighting
alongside the Dutch. Her convoy left Fremantle on the 22nd February and she
safely delivered her cargo at Tjilatjap, Java. In the early hours of the 27th
February, she was not far from Tjilatjap when she was met by her escort of two
destroyers for the return journey. Suddenly, a force of nine Japanese bombers
attacked the US flotilla. Langley was hit numerous times and was soon on fire.
However, she didn`t sink and it was left to her escorts to deliver the torpedoes
that sent her to the bottom of the sea.




She left on her final mission on February 22 where she successfully delivered thirty-two P40 fighter aircraft of the USAAF 49th Pursuit Group from Fremantle, Australia to Tjilatjap, Java. But while returning on February 27 at 11:40 while 75 miles (120km) south of Tjilatjap. The Langley and her anti-submarine escort the USS Whipple (DD-217) and the USS Edsall (DD-219) were attacked by nine Mitsubishi G4M (Betty) bombers. The first two waves missed her but the third wave scored 5 hits on the Langley. At 13:32 with a 10 degree list and having gone dead in the water with her engine rooms flooded, the abandon ship order was given. To avoid having her fall into enemy hands the escorts used their 4-inch guns and 2 torpedoes to sink her.

Warspite1

That`s very similar to the Wikipedia article - too close??


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 1398
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 9/8/2009 12:47:50 AM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Warspite1

That`s very similar to the Wikipedia article - too close??



Which is also very close to USS Langley (CV-1)


But after more research I would suggest...

She left on her final mission on February 22 where she was unsuccessful in delivering thirty-two P40 fighter aircraft from Fremantle, Australia to Tjilatjap, Java. On February 27 at 11:40 while 75 miles (120km) south of Tjilatjap. The Langley and her anti-submarine escort the USS Whipple (DD-217) and the USS Edsall (DD-219) were attacked by nine twin-engine bombers. The first two strikes missed her but the third strike scored 5 hits on the Langley. At 13:32 with a 10 degree list and having gone dead in the water with her engine rooms flooded, the abandon ship order was given. To avoid having her fall into enemy hands the escorts used their 4-inch guns and 2 torpedoes to sink her.


< Message edited by Extraneous -- 9/8/2009 1:09:47 AM >

_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1399
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 9/8/2009 1:09:21 AM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3191
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		For my thoughts on the Langley I was just working off my memories of reading Samuel Eliot Morison; I just now went through the appropriate passages once more. You are correct, the USN considered the Langley a seaplane tender at the outbreak of war. It was ordered from the Philippines to Balikpapan almost immediately, and thence to Australia, while the other tender stationed in the Philippines lead a more adventurous fighting retreat. So my only memory of the Langley's activity was from it's delivery mission to Java. Morison contrasts the P-40s delivered whole from the Langley, ready to stage from their delivery port straight to forward airfields, to another load delivered simultaneously from another transport, but in crates. So the Langley could still move airplanes (probably on the original flight deck I would guess) and that was another angle to what I was thinking about.

And with a speed of only 3, it is not a very good investment to build the Langley in the game; though it can make a nice ASW carrier in the Atlantic it is not treated like an ASW CV as in the Convoys in Flames kit, so you have to keep moving it out to sea all the time.

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 1400
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 9/8/2009 1:13:42 AM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

For my thoughts on the Langley I was just working off my memories of reading Samuel Eliot Morison; I just now went through the appropriate passages once more. You are correct, the USN considered the Langley a seaplane tender at the outbreak of war. It was ordered from the Philippines to Balikpapan almost immediately, and thence to Australia, while the other tender stationed in the Philippines lead a more adventurous fighting retreat. So my only memory of the Langley's activity was from it's delivery mission to Java. Morison contrasts the P-40s delivered whole from the Langley, ready to stage from their delivery port straight to forward airfields, to another load delivered simultaneously from another transport, but in crates. So the Langley could still move airplanes (probably on the original flight deck I would guess) and that was another angle to what I was thinking about.

And with a speed of only 3, it is not a very good investment to build the Langley in the game; though it can make a nice ASW carrier in the Atlantic it is not treated like an ASW CV as in the Convoys in Flames kit, so you have to keep moving it out to sea all the time.



Actually before the war…

Langley completed conversion 26 February 1937 and was reclassified AV-3 on 11 April she was assigned to Aircraft Scouting Force and commenced her tending operations out of Seattle, Sitka, Pearl Harbor, and San Diego. She departed for a brief deployment with the Atlantic Fleet from 1 February to 10 July 1939, and then steamed to assume her duties with the Pacific fleet at Manila arriving 24 September.


_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 1401
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 9/8/2009 6:21:27 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

For my thoughts on the Langley I was just working off my memories of reading Samuel Eliot Morison; I just now went through the appropriate passages once more. You are correct, the USN considered the Langley a seaplane tender at the outbreak of war. It was ordered from the Philippines to Balikpapan almost immediately, and thence to Australia, while the other tender stationed in the Philippines lead a more adventurous fighting retreat. So my only memory of the Langley's activity was from it's delivery mission to Java. Morison contrasts the P-40s delivered whole from the Langley, ready to stage from their delivery port straight to forward airfields, to another load delivered simultaneously from another transport, but in crates. So the Langley could still move airplanes (probably on the original flight deck I would guess) and that was another angle to what I was thinking about.

And with a speed of only 3, it is not a very good investment to build the Langley in the game; though it can make a nice ASW carrier in the Atlantic it is not treated like an ASW CV as in the Convoys in Flames kit, so you have to keep moving it out to sea all the time.

Warspite1

Depends what you mean by whole . From looking at this picture - I would say the aircraft must have required some form of assembly. Are Thirty two fighters going to fit on her? I have no idea if the P-40 had folded wings, if they did that may be possible but I very much doubt it.








Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/8/2009 6:37:16 AM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 1402
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 9/8/2009 2:24:03 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline 		Isn't this the picture of the Langley delivering PBY's to Pearl Harbor?

If you look just forward of where the wings for the PBY's are stored for shipment you can see 2 floatplanes.

I would think floatplanes should be slightly larger than a P40 (no P40’s didn’t have folding wings).


All references to Langley’s cargo at the time of her sinking says thirty-two P40 aircraft.

49TH FIGHTER GROUP FORMERLY THE 49TH PURSUIT GROUP IN AUSTRALIA DURING WW2

USS Langley was actually one of the support ships for the US Navy's Patrol Wing Ten. The PW10 War Diary for 27 February 1942 lists the names of the 31 USAAC pilots missing (none survived the War) as a result of the attack on USS Langley. There was one 1st Lt. and thirty 2nd Lts. The latter includes J.P.Martin (0-427557). Also lost were 12 crew chiefs from the 35th Pursuit Group, but their names are not recorded in the above War Diary.



_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1403
RE: Mers-el-Kebir - 9/10/2009 4:22:22 PM   
mariandavid

 

Posts: 297
Joined: 5/22/2008
Status: offline 		A couple of clarifications on a series of much earlier posts on this sad event. The "junior officer" named was in fact the very senior Captain Holland, then CO of the aircraft carrier 'Ark Royal' and on the promotion list for rear-admiral. He had also recently served as the British naval attache in Paris, was obviously fluent in French and knew personally many of the senior French admirals. The problems began when Gensoul refused to let the ship he was approaching in, the destroyer 'Foxhound', enter the harbour and then refused to meet Holland when he got into a motor-boat!

However what really matters is that Gensoul eventually concurred and even offered to disarm his ships in place, which both Holland and Somerville thought was reasonable. Unfortunately all this took far too much time and the Admiralty (obviously Churchill wearing the caps of Prime Minister and First Lord) instead ordered Somerville to end negotiations and issue an immediate demand.


(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1404
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 9/19/2009 7:04:13 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Having taken a bit of R+R after completing the named German surface units, I have now made a start on finalising the Royal Australian Navy units. The first of these is the light cruiser Perth.

[4006 Perth - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine Output: 72,000 hp
.B Top Speed: 32.5 Knots
.B Main armament: 8 x 6-inch (152mm), 4 x 4-inch (102mm) guns
.B Displacement (full load): 9,150 tons
.B Thickest armour: 3-inch (belt)
.P The Amphions were a sub-class of the Leander-class light cruisers, although
some sources state they were a separate class. The main difference between the
two types was the layout of the boiler and engine rooms, resulting in the earlier
Leanders having just one funnel, while the Amphions had two.
.P All three ships that made up this sub-class were ultimately transferred to the
Royal Australian Navy (RAN). In Royal Navy (RN) service they were named after
Roman or Greek mythological characters, but their names were changed upon
transfer to the RAN and they were re-named after major Australian cities.
.P The treaty that followed the London Naval Conference of 1930 allowed Britain
to build 91,000 tons of cruisers up to the end of 1936. The original plan was to
build fourteen Leander-class at 6,500 tons each. However the class ended up
heavier than planned, resulting in a reduced number of this type being built. The
first ship completed was significantly over-weight and subsequent ships had their
weight pared back. As a result, the Amphions were lighter than the Leanders.
.P As was by then standard for the RN, the class were fitted with a six-inch main
armament, backed up by four, high-angle, four-inch secondary guns that provided
the main anti-aircraft (AA) defence.
.P The design proved very rugged and capable of withstanding severe punishment,
although the Amphions proved unluckier than the Leanders; two of the three ships
were sunk early in the war.
.P HMAS Perth was completed in July 1936 as HMS Amphion. In Greek mythology,
Amphion was one of the twin sons of Zeus. Upon transfer to the RAN, she was named
after the capital of Western Australia. She was originally crewed by the officers
and men from the old First World War vintage cruiser Adelaide, who had sailed to
the UK in May to man the ship.
.P Perth was commissioned into the RAN in June 1939, just three months before the
German invasion of Poland, and she was in the West Indies in August, on her way
to Australia, when the RN was placed on a war footing. As a result, she began the
Second World War deployed in the West Indies, where she took part in searches for
enemy blockade-runners.
.P At the start of October, she was part of the Atlantic escort for the large
forty-five ship convoy KJ3 to the UK, during which she received weather damage.
She returned to Bermuda and after completion of the repair work, was sent to the
Pacific briefly, where she was deployed with two Canadian destroyers. Perth
returned to the West Indies at the end of 1939 and remained in the Caribbean
until the end of February, when she was released from duty in the West Indies and
sailed through the Panama Canal for Australia.
.P Perth reached Sydney on the 31st March 1940 and was initially deployed for
trade protection duty off the east coast of Australia. She took part in the
search for the German auxiliary cruisers Orion in May and Pinguin in November,
each time without success.
.P With Italy having entered the war the previous June, and the naval war in the
Mediterranean beginning to escalate, Perth was sent to reinforce the RN there and
she sailed for Alexandria, Egypt, in December; escorting convoy US7 on the way.
At the start of the following year, she was deployed in Force D in the Aegean
with fellow cruisers Orion and York as part of the multi-purpose Operation Excess
(see HMS Southampton). Perth was lightly damaged during an air attack at the end
of the operation, but safely returned to Alexandria on the 18th.
.P Following Excess, Perth had repair work carried out and she also received
additional close-range AA weaponry at this time. In February, she was deployed in
the eastern Mediterranean for the ill-fated Operation Abstention, in which the
British tried to gain a foothold in the Dodecanese island chain (see HMS
Bonaventure).
.P In March, Perth covered the Lustre convoys that took an expeditionary force to
Greece, escorted convoy MW6 to Malta (see HMS Bonaventure) and took part in the
successful Battle of Cape Matapan (see HMS Barham). The following month, she
took part in covering two convoy operations (see HMS Ajax) that included a
shore bombardment mission against Tripoli and was then called upon to assist the
evacuation of the expeditionary force from Greece after the Germans intervened
there, to devastating effect (see Transport Counter 4725).
.P At the start of May, Perth took part in a complex operation that involved the
sailing of the famous Tiger convoy through the Mediterranean to Egypt (see
Transport Counter 4729) and two convoys being sent to Malta from Alexandria. The
Mediterranean Fleet covered the latter two convoys and then the Tiger convoy once
it had passed Malta. Later that month, Perth was sent to operate off Crete, where
she was tasked with intercepting enemy shipping seeking to land reinforcements
for the paratroopers that had previously landed on the island (see HMS Fiji). She
was hit by a bomb during this operation that damaged her bridge and she returned
to Alexandria for repairs. She was quickly patched up and returned to Crete to
assist the evacuation operation.
.P Despite the German invaders facing a number of obstacles, including the
problems of re-supply and the good defensive terrain, the paratroopers managed to
push the Commonwealth forces back until eventually, an evacuation was the only
avenue open to them. Once again, just as in Norway, France and Greece, the RN
were tasked with the job of saving the Army in the face of overwhelming enemy air
superiority. The operation would prove costly but Admiral Cunningham refused to
allow the Navy to let the Army down. When asked about the cost of the operation,
Cunningham famously said, “It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three
centuries to build a tradition”. Thanks to the RN, over the period of four nights
from the 28th May, 16,000 of the 22,000 troops on Crete were evacuated from
Sphakia and Heraklion. The cost to the Navy had been high, losing three cruisers
and six destroyers in the process. Heavily involved in those last few days were
the cruisers: Ajax, Calcutta, Coventry, Dido, Orion, Perth and Phoebe, the
cruiser minelayer Abdiel and the destroyers Hereward, Hotspur, Imperial, Jackal,
Kimberley and Napier. On the 31st May, Perth was damaged during an air attack and
she required a further period of repair.
.P In June and early July, Perth took part in RN operations to support the
fighting against the Vichy regime in Syria (see HMS Phoebe). This was to be the
last Mediterranean operation for the cruiser, and in mid-July, she was ordered to
return to Australia. She arrived a month later and was taken for a refit, which
lasted until December. She was ready in time to meet the new threat from Japan,
following their attack on Pearl Harbor on the 7th December 1941.
.P She was initially deployed as part of the ANZAC Squadron and along with the
heavy cruisers Australia and Canberra and her "half" sister HMNZS Achilles, she
escorted US troop convoys to New Caledonia and New Guinea during that month.
Then, in the New Year 1942, with Allied forces being pushed back in the
Philippines and Malaya, ABDA - American, British, Dutch, Australian - command was
set-up to pool the few assets available to the Allies, and to try and contain the
Japanese. Perth became part of the naval force, under the overall command of the
American Admiral Hart. Her initial role within ABDA remained convoy defence in
Australian waters, but this changed at the end of January as the crises in Malaya
and then Singapore began to unfold.
.P On the 24th February, Perth arrived at Tanjong Priok, western Java along with
the heavy cruiser Exeter and three destroyers. From there, the ships were sent to
join the Eastern Striking Force at Soerbaya, on Java`s north-east coast. There,
she was part of a force containing the Dutch light cruisers De Ruyter (Flagship
of Admiral Doorman) and Java, the US heavy cruiser Houston, Exeter and nine US,
British and Dutch destroyers. Notably absent from the Allied order of battle was
air cover, as it had been for most of the campaign; this lack of air cover was to
have dire consequences for the Allied ships.
.P The force sailed on the night of the 26th in order to try and locate an
invasion convoy, although they returned the following morning having found no
sign of the enemy. No sooner had they arrived back in port, than a new sighting
was reported, and Admiral Doorman put to sea once more. This time the Allied
force found the Japanese and what became known as the Battle of the Java Sea was
fought (see HMS Exeter). The battle was a disaster for ABDA, losing the two Dutch
cruisers, along with Doorman, and two British and one Dutch destroyer.
.P Perth and Houston retreated back to Tanjong Priok and arrived there in the
early afternoon of the 28th. Later that day, at 1900hrs, the two cruisers were
ordered to sea for what would be their final time. Short of both ammunition and
fuel, they were to head for Tjilatjap, southern Java. There were no destroyers in
working order available to escort them, although the Dutch destroyer Evertsen did
get underway after the cruisers had left and sailed some way behind them. This
lack of destroyer escort would prove crucial to the events about to unfold. With
Perth`s Captain Waller senior to the US Captain Rooks, Perth was the command ship
as they began their journey west, sailing toward the Sunda Strait, that separated
the islands of Java and Sumatra.
.P However, at 2200hrs, at the entrance to the Strait, they came across an
invasion convoy that was taking Japanese troops to land in Western Java. The
convoy was defended by a light carrier and numerous cruisers and destroyers,
although for close escort the convoy could call on only the light cruiser Natori
and eight destroyers. The fifty-ship invasion convoy presented Waller and Rooks
with a most unexpected, but highly important target.
.P What became the Battle of the Sunda Strait began just after 1100hrs, when the
cruisers opened fire on the Japanese destroyer Harukaze. They were then subjected
to a torpedo attack launched from Fubuki, but the torpedoes were avoided. The
Natori arrived with five destroyers shortly afterwards, and a fire fight broke
out. The Allied cruisers found their targets, damaging two of the Japanese
destroyers, and the enemy ships had to make smoke and withdraw. At around 1120hrs
the heavy cruisers Mikuma and Mogami arrived to assist the lighter forces and
this enabled the destroyers to get in close for torpedo attacks. Perth and
Houston were running out of ammunition but bravely fought on, giving at least as
good as they got. However, sheer weight of numbers told in the end and there were
simply too many enemy to keep at bay. The Japanese launched wave after wave of
torpedoes from both their destroyers and their cruisers and at 0025hrs on the 1st
March, Perth, having been hit by four of these, sank. She was joined shortly
afterwards by Houston. The damage to the convoy came courtesy of friendly fire
and not from the Allied ships. No less than four transports were sunk by Japanese
torpedoes, one of which contained the commander of the Japanese land forces,
Lt-General Imamura, though he survived the sinking. The Evertsen, that was
sailing to catch-up with Perth and Houston, stumbled across the Japanese shortly
afterwards and was beached after receiving numerous shell hits.
.P Over 1,000 officers and men from the two cruisers perished, of which 375 were
from Perth. Many of the survivors were later to die at the hands of the Japanese
whilst prisoners of war.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/20/2009 8:55:37 AM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1405
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 9/19/2009 7:15:05 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Secondly, the Australian sub counter:

[4011 Submarine Australian - by Robert Jenkins]
.P This is one of the many "what if" counters included within World in Flames. In
actuality, the Royal Australian Navy (RAN) did not have a submarine service
during World War II, but this could easily have been different. This counter
allows the Commonwealth player to build a RAN submarine unit.
.P There were three attempts to raise an Australian submarine service before the
outbreak of the Second World War, starting in 1914 when two British built
submarines were transferred to the RAN. Neither vessel survived that war. The
next attempt was made in 1919 when once again, the Royal Navy (RN) were the
provider and this time five submarines were transferred. However, a lack of money
available in the depressed inter-war years meant that these vessels were only in
service for three years before being decommissioned. Then in 1927, one more
effort was made, and two ex-RN O-class submarines, Oxley and Otway were
commissioned. Once again it was economic considerations that forced their
downgrade to reserve status after only a year, and a year after that they were
sent back to the RN. Both O-class served the RN in World War II (see Submarine
counter 4731).

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/19/2009 9:10:18 AM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1406
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 9/19/2009 7:29:14 AM   
michaelbaldur


Posts: 4774
Joined: 4/6/2007
From: denmark
Status: offline 		P Perth was commissioned into the RAN in June 1936, just three months before the
German invasion of Poland, and she was in the West Indies in August, on her way
to Australia, when the RN was placed on a war footing. As a result, she began the
Second World War deployed in the West Indies, where she took part in searches for
enemy blockade-runners.


_____________________________

the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1407
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 9/19/2009 7:45:43 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

.P She was initially deployed as part of the ANZAC Squadron and along with the
heavy cruisers Australia and Canberra and her "half" sister HMNZS Achillies, she
escorted US troop convoys to New Caledonia and New Guinea during that month.

Isn't it Achilles ?
Nice story. It is a pity that she sinks in the end, after all what she achieved.
Does such a ship have the same crew from the day it is commissioned into the RAN in June 1939 from the day when she sinks ?
Or did the allied navies rotated crews ?

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1408
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 9/19/2009 8:50:03 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

P Perth was commissioned into the RAN in June 1936, just three months before the
German invasion of Poland, and she was in the West Indies in August, on her way
to Australia, when the RN was placed on a war footing. As a result, she began the
Second World War deployed in the West Indies, where she took part in searches for
enemy blockade-runners.

Warspite1

Clearly, further R+R required - thanks Michael, I have changed to June 1939


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to michaelbaldur)
Post #: 1409
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 9/19/2009 8:59:46 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

.P She was initially deployed as part of the ANZAC Squadron and along with the
heavy cruisers Australia and Canberra and her "half" sister HMNZS Achillies, she
escorted US troop convoys to New Caledonia and New Guinea during that month.

Isn't it Achilles ?
Nice story. It is a pity that she sinks in the end, after all what she achieved.
Does such a ship have the same crew from the day it is commissioned into the RAN in June 1939 from the day when she sinks ?
Or did the allied navies rotated crews ?

Warspite1

It certainly is - change made

Yes pretty much the entire ABDA fleet that took part in the Java Sea battle were either sunk during that battle or within a day or two.

Re the crew situation, I don`t know the definitive answer, but am guessing that unless there was a specific requirement - typically promotions - the crew remained the same. In order to maximise fighting efficiency I guess it would help to have a crew and - particularly officer complement - that knew each other well.



_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 1410
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