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I was disappointed - 9/26/2009 5:06:20 AM

fbs

Posts: 1048
Joined: 12/25/2008
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I know that everybody involved is really dedicated, and I do appreciate and respect that.

But I'm left with the impression that this game is 99% identical to the old BoB and BTR. Yeah, the graphics have changed, and the menu placement have changed, and there are probably more units around... but everything else looks exactly the same: same scope, same mechanics, same limitations, same targets, same campaigns, same start/end dates.

And somehow on the way the interface became very slow (on a top of line computer) -- but nevermind that, I can live with that. My problem is that there is a lot of deja vu with the old game, and for that I am disappointed. Is the old game such a perfect work that it can't be improved? Wasn't there any room to assign leaders, split units, have a 1942 campaign, add an editor, add some borders to the map (so I don't bomb a French town), add Coastal Command and get them to hunt U-Boats, add some civilian casualties statistics, make the economy more realistic, or some other enhancements from the 500 that players could come with if they were asked?

I'm not impressed with what Matrix Games is doing with this franchise. Will Matrix change the map next year and release as BTR III? Change the icons and font and release once again as BTR IV? I could very well live with the old graphics if the game mechanics were new and improved.

I think that, in summary, I'm disappointed with the lack of ambition of this game. Once again, don't take me wrong with this -- I certainly am most respectful of all involved on this project.

Thanks,
fbs

< Message edited by fbs -- 9/30/2009 11:39:44 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: I am disappointed - 9/26/2009 6:49:30 AM

sfbaytf

Posts: 1122
Joined: 4/13/2005
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Unfortunately I'm going to have to agree with FBS. This isn't a big improvement over the original. Mabye I've become spoiled with WitP AE, but I was hoping for a quantum improvement.

Lets face it, once the action starts its still as slow as before and it still looks like rush hour on the LA freeway. I could understand that when I first played it in 1994 and I had a 486/SX but not today when I have a graphics card that has more memory and computing power than my old 486/sx, let alone my main processor that in 1994 could have predicted the upcoming dot-com crash as well as the housing bubble.

To be fair I don't know how much resources was given to this project. I won't beat up on this anymore cause I feel bad for the Hard Sarge who put his life into this and I don't begrudge the fact I spent $50+ on this.

Perhaps in time and after a few updates this will grow on me...please open up the game, throw in a full editor and allow the modders to bring the map up to at least Witp AE standards.

BTW: for those who are having issues on Vista 64, I too also see the spinning circle alongside the pointer after starting up. I was able to get rid it it by "ctrl-esc" and closing the opening menu and "alt-tab" back to the game. The screen was initially black, but by clicking the mouse on the screen was able to get back the game interface.

< Message edited by sfbaytf -- 9/26/2009 6:51:59 AM >

(in reply to fbs)

Post #: 2

RE: I am disappointed - 9/26/2009 7:11:37 AM

Rosseau

Posts: 2757
Joined: 9/13/2009
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I am a Matrix addict, but for all the reasons you listed I had to say "no" to this one. The designers busted butt and deserve the $50, but the game system is too old to accommodate higher res graphics, etc. Matrix should have invested more in it or dropped the price.

Then there was the awesome Campaign Series compilation, the Close Combat series, and they just released an editor for Empires in Arms. So really can't complain too much!

(in reply to sfbaytf)

Post #: 3

RE: I am disappointed - 9/26/2009 9:46:19 AM

LuckyJim1005

Posts: 22
Joined: 9/10/2007
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Have to agree - I was a bit vocal about how long this title took to get released and now playing it I do not see any difference from the original.

I appreciate there may be a lot more going on under the hood but the UI is still exactly the same and it still makes that god awful noise everytime I click a button.

As for the movement phase - how hard would have it been to have an option to lose the aircraft sprites and use standard Nato icons. Might make it go faster and it would surely make it easier to see what is going on. As it is I just kick it off and go have a cup of tea (or beer) and then see what happened.

That said I never had the 'Bombing the Reich' bit so am looking foreward to trying that out.

Kudos to Hard Sarge and the team for getting it out after all these years but I am not sure it is worth the purchase if you have the old games and can get them running.

(in reply to Rosseau)

Post #: 4

RE: I am disappointed - 9/26/2009 10:23:06 AM

Terminus

Posts: 41459
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"fbs" is entitled to his opinion, but as someone who worked on another of this type of project, I'd like to tell him (and the rest of you) exactly how difficult it is to mess with a pre-existing game engine, especially (no offense, Gary) a Gary Grigsby one, which is overflowing with so much code that even GG himself can't figure it out anymore. And that's not a joke, BTW.

On AE, we had a huge development team, and it still took us YEARS to finish a product we were comfortable with releasing, after tearing a big section (the AI) out and completely replacing it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this development team basically two or three guys? I'm impressed that they got this out so quickly.

Also, I wish people would stop complaining about resolution. It is HUGELY difficult to add selectable screen resolution to an old engine like this, believe me. Even brand new engines take plenty of work and time to add this. Play it in a window if you don't like the resolution.

And price? $50 is *cheap* for a game of this type.

Okay, rant over. I haven't bought this one yet, but I will as soon as I get the finances.

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(in reply to fbs)

Post #: 5

RE: I am disappointed - 9/26/2009 10:25:53 AM

Terminus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyJim1005
As for the movement phase - how hard would have it been to have an option to lose the aircraft sprites and use standard Nato icons.

Erm, that option has always been in the game. You can turn the sprites off easily; I don't have it yet, but I can see in the screenshots that it's still there.

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Post #: 6

RE: I am disappointed - 9/26/2009 10:48:00 AM

sven6345789

Posts: 1050
Joined: 3/8/2004
From: Sandviken, Sweden
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yepp, just take a look on the buttons in screen on the right hand side. It is the 3rd or 4th from above i believe. you will get boxes. I always played with boxes. As about the graphics. This isn't about graphics but about data. I owned the originals and now own this one because it is the best representation of the european air war on a grand strategic scale. I am glad it is out. Thanks to the guys who put their devotion into this product.
Also, several new types of planes entered the game. So it is not exactly a plane copy.

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(in reply to Terminus)

Post #: 7

RE: I am disappointed - 9/26/2009 10:52:07 AM

wernerpruckner

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Waypoints, F/B that works, interchangeable bombs or droptanks, fuel consumption that works more realistically as well as the bomb damage, many bugs ae gone, more new toys to play with (in BTR it is not as easy as it was for the Germans)..........................................................................................................................and many many more things
graphics were/are our least concern, but I hope someone will bring as some nice mods and graphics

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Post #: 8

RE: I am disappointed - 9/26/2009 11:35:22 AM

petgod

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Well Im not disappointed. A great game has been made better. Bloody well done Hard sarge, harley and all those that have worked on this this for many years, with out pay!

Great work and really love it.

My only comment would be "Harley make me an editior like btredit". Really loved moving stuff around for different start set ups.

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Post #: 9

RE: I am disappointed - 9/26/2009 11:35:33 AM

Posts: 1247
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyJim1005
As for the movement phase - how hard would have it been to have an option to lose the aircraft sprites and use standard Nato icons.

Erm, that option has always been in the game. You can turn the sprites off easily; I don't have it yet, but I can see in the screenshots that it's still there.

I for one found them fine. I just wish they would work here. (they will not show any new formations here until I toggle back to plane sprites and then again to icons... an untenable situation for actually playing with them on)

I do wish I had waited for some patches before buying this. Other than uncontrollably fast mouse-map scrolling, the originals still work better here than the new one (especially so, as the mouse-map scrolling is jumpy as hell here in the new one).

However, all indications are that they will fix it. I'm hoping the fixes will incorporate more machine combinations than their test pool included.

(in reply to Terminus)

Post #: 10

RE: I am disappointed - 9/26/2009 12:12:57 PM

Creeper

Posts: 177
Joined: 11/8/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline

I fully agree with petgod. I love this game too.
But i wish that harley would implement the hotkey for highlighting airfields with aircraft on it.

Perhaps we need a "wishlist-thread".

(in reply to E)

Post #: 11

RE: I am disappointed - 9/26/2009 2:10:09 PM

Misty99

Posts: 72
Joined: 11/15/2003
From: Germany
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quote:

And price? $50 is *cheap* for a game of this type.

I own the original BTR and I dont want to pay 50$ for a big patch. I bought CC COI and CC TLD and I had the feeling, that I play the old games again.

(in reply to Creeper)

Post #: 12

RE: I am disappointed - 9/26/2009 2:15:50 PM

Nemo121

Posts: 5821
Joined: 2/6/2004
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Well, I think there are enough changes to justify a purchase personally. My big issue would be the after-sales support.

The game won't run at all for me, I've posted my dxdiag and requested information. Almost a day later despite about 100 views there's no sign of anyone official giving any feedback on what to do next.

I don't mind a game which is an under-the-hood update and doesn't have all the modern bells and whistles. But I do expect that a game will work OR, if it doesn't work, there'll be prompt response to a technical report ( even if just to say --- We're looking into it, we'll get back to you within 48 hrs).

(in reply to Misty99)

Post #: 13

RE: I am disappointed - 9/26/2009 2:37:33 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
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From: Vermont, USA
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I'm disappointed at the disappointment, which as far as I can tell is based on a misunderstanding. This is not a "WITP" or "WITP:AE" project. Both of those were effectively new games and massive undertakings. WITP:AE had over two dozen people working on it.

This was always presented as the same as our other "TalonSoft" releases - a project to update the game to make it compatible with newer operating systems and add some improvements along the way, particularly to any significant bug or balance issues that had not been addressed in the original support process. Have a look at the Campaign Series, TOAW III or the Battleground Series. The gameplay and interface in all of these is virtually identical to the original games, but they work well on modern systems and have a number of improvements. Without exception, all these projects were limited by the original engines and all of them had small development teams (this one had two people).

We combined both games into one updated release here, fixed bugs and made a number of improvements. That's what we promised and that's what was delivered, with each game at half the price of the original (as a side note, when we got the rights to them, the old versions with bugs and modern OS incompatibilities were still selling at full price or higher on the secondary market).

Most importantly, these titles will now also receive post-release support.

Regards,

- Erik

< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 9/26/2009 2:40:37 PM >

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Post #: 14

RE: I am disappointed - 9/26/2009 2:39:08 PM

Terminus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Misty

quote:

And price? $50 is *cheap* for a game of this type.

I own the original BTR and I dont want to pay 50$ for a big patch. I bought CC COI and CC TLD and I had the feeling, that I play the old games again.

This is not a patch.

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Post #: 15

RE: I am disappointed - 9/26/2009 2:51:01 PM

vonRocko

Posts: 1447
Joined: 11/4/2008
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I have to admit I feel ripped off. $60 ($70 with shipping) is way to much for an old game like this. For a $70 game,I expect much more. It looks old and plays like an old game. I shouldn't have to mess with my settings to get it to run.That annoying hourglass problem,shaky,lags in scrolling,lousy graphics. The game is WAY overpriced. I would return it if I could.

(in reply to Terminus)

Post #: 16

RE: I am disappointed - 9/26/2009 3:00:49 PM

Misty99

Posts: 72
Joined: 11/15/2003
From: Germany
Status: offline

quote:

This is not a patch.

OK, then it�s an update!

(in reply to vonRocko)

Post #: 17

RE: I am disappointed - 9/26/2009 3:03:14 PM

zoul310

Posts: 26
Joined: 4/5/2009
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline

Well, I used to play like mad these 2 games. I switched to Mac years ago (I'm photographer) and have been looking at this forum in silence for years... :-)
I miss it very much. And I'm going to buy a PC again just for this one.

(in reply to fbs)

Post #: 18

RE: I am disappointed - 9/26/2009 3:33:22 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vonRocko
I have to admit I feel ripped off. $60 ($70 with shipping) is way to much for an old game like this. For a $70 game,I expect much more. It looks old and plays like an old game. I shouldn't have to mess with my settings to get it to run.That annoying hourglass problem,shaky,lags in scrolling,lousy graphics. The game is WAY overpriced. I would return it if I could.

I'm sorry to hear that, I hope that you give it a chance again after the first update. The issues with some systems as far as lag and hourglass should be resolved with the first update. The graphics are exactly as billed and as shown in the screenshots. This game is aimed squarely at those who loved the original and wanted to improve them further and keep playing them for years to come. In addition, it is two games in one, both of which originally sold for $50 each and each of which remains the definitive game on its subject.

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Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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(in reply to vonRocko)

Post #: 19

RE: I am disappointed - 9/26/2009 3:45:06 PM

jimbo12

Posts: 33
Joined: 11/12/2007
Status: offline

I guess it is a matter of perspective and taste. Having followed the Talonsoft "reno process" from the begining I for one am very thankful to see these classic titles have all returned now. In a war game like this graphics are my least prioity. I have logged more hours playing BoB then any other game I owned and when it stopped working years ago it left a big hole in my gaming enjoyment. For whatever reason the detail planning combined with the helpless or awesome feeling of watching your plans slowly unfold hit it for me. Most games give you a omni-potent seat and game designers have to struggle to add the fog of war. Not so here! While I can't say I have read every post on the this forum I have read most of them and I can attest to a few things.

1. I am just into the game but all of the bugs I knew about are gone now.
2. Unlike with the battleground series the AI seems much improved. My impression might be based on being rusty but I don't remember fighters chasing me back to my air fields or ignoring my fighter sweeps when they should. My low level attacks on radar sites got chewed up by flak " so much for that tactic". Multi level fighter escort seems very realistic as the high escorts are pulled down and become targets themselves. Etc etc ect!
3. The order of battle is finally fixed and realistic. I can't wait until I finally get my FW190's
4. If you read what Matrix promised they have over delivered IMO

I could go on and on but I don't believe you buy this kind of game for graphics or how big of a screen you can fit it on. If you were a fan of the game before I believe you will enjoy this game. Too those of you who are disapointed I really hope you play it several times so you can get past your disapointment with the lack of tech upgades and into the rich detail of the simulation.

(in reply to fbs)

Post #: 20

RE: I am disappointed - 9/26/2009 4:27:53 PM

DBeves

Posts: 403
Joined: 7/29/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

I have to admit I feel ripped off. $60 ($70 with shipping) is way to much for an old game like this. For a $70 game,I expect much more. It looks old and plays like an old game. I shouldn't have to mess with my settings to get it to run.That annoying hourglass problem,shaky,lags in scrolling,lousy graphics. The game is WAY overpriced. I would return it if I could.

That would kind of beg the question as to why did you buy it then ? I can say for me personally I knew - as it was clearly explained by matrix .. what they were doing with this game ... there was surely enough information out there for you to know what you were getting ... ?

< Message edited by DBeves -- 9/26/2009 4:30:18 PM >

(in reply to vonRocko)

Post #: 21

RE: I am disappointed - 9/26/2009 4:30:35 PM

fbs

Posts: 1048
Joined: 12/25/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

I'm disappointed at the disappointment, which as far as I can tell is based on a misunderstanding. This is not a "WITP" or "WITP:AE" project. Both of those were effectively new games and massive undertakings. WITP:AE had over two dozen people working on it.

This was always presented as the same as our other "TalonSoft" releases - a project to update the game to make it compatible with newer operating systems and add some improvements along the way, particularly to any significant bug or balance issues that had not been addressed in the original support process. Have a look at the Campaign Series, TOAW III or the Battleground Series. The gameplay and interface in all of these is virtually identical to the original games, but they work well on modern systems and have a number of improvements. Without exception, all these projects were limited by the original engines and all of them had small development teams (this one had two people).

We combined both games into one updated release here, fixed bugs and made a number of improvements. That's what we promised and that's what was delivered, with each game at half the price of the original (as a side note, when we got the rights to them, the old versions with bugs and modern OS incompatibilities were still selling at full price or higher on the secondary market).

Most importantly, these titles will now also receive post-release support.

Regards,

- Erik

I think that comparison with TOAW III is relevant. I was quite happy with TOAW III, as it has lots of new scenarios, brand new map graphics (although I switched to the old ones, hahaha... too used to them), you can edit equipment, the game runs much faster than before and the AI seems smarter. I think that Matrix went far enough to call that a new game.

With Eagle Day I'm not so sure. It has some improvements, but it seems to be just steps away from the old game -- and this input lag is killing me here. I say all that as respectfully as I can -- I have been a supporter of Matrix for a long, long time.

Thanks,
fbs

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 22

RE: I am disappointed - 9/26/2009 4:56:52 PM

vonRocko

Posts: 1447
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DBeves

quote:

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

I have to admit I feel ripped off. $60 ($70 with shipping) is way to much for an old game like this. For a $70 game,I expect much more. It looks old and plays like an old game. I shouldn't have to mess with my settings to get it to run.That annoying hourglass problem,shaky,lags in scrolling,lousy graphics. The game is WAY overpriced. I would return it if I could.

That would kind of beg the question as to why did you buy it then ? I can say for me personally I knew - as it was clearly explained by matrix .. what they were doing with this game ... there was surely enough information out there for you to know what you were getting ... ?

You are absolutely correct, I only have myself to blame. I wouldn't even had said anything if the game was priced more reasonably. I will play the game, I think I just expected more.
Thanks

(in reply to DBeves)

Post #: 23

RE: I am disappointed - 9/26/2009 5:24:24 PM

sfbaytf

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I would have gladly paid $50 for just BoB and another $50 for BtR, so long as the resources and time were allocated to bring overall standards up from the original-in other words take the time and effort as was done for WitP AE. Rip up the AI if need be, update the graphics and interface. You build it, they shall come and pay to play. Give Hard Sarge more than just a fireteam of geeks. Give him a platoon of geeks and tell him to run with the ball.

That's my philosophy...of course the bean counters, business analysts and marketing dept, may think differently.

I'll pay more for high quality luxury items-even in this economy.

1 M1A2 Abrams tank that costs hundreds of millions and takes longer to build is far more effective than 4 T-72's that cost far less and can be built in half the time.

< Message edited by sfbaytf -- 9/26/2009 5:39:08 PM >

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Post #: 24

RE: I am disappointed - 9/26/2009 6:18:47 PM

Fallschirmjager

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From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
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As far as lack of a editor and lack of new scenarios. This was a small team. I have a strong feeling that if sales are good and there develops a strong community that new scenarios will come and perhaps an editor. It will just take time.
Also unlike before with past mods to this game, the development team has access to code that was written by themselves so they no longer have to work with other peoples work. This game just needs the proper amount of sales and post release activity here in these forums and I believe new scenarios will come.

(in reply to sfbaytf)

Post #: 25

RE: I am disappointed - 9/26/2009 6:50:08 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
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From: Vermont, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fbs
I think that comparison with TOAW III is relevant. I was quite happy with TOAW III, as it has lots of new scenarios, brand new map graphics (although I switched to the old ones, hahaha... too used to them), you can edit equipment, the game runs much faster than before and the AI seems smarter. I think that Matrix went far enough to call that a new game.

It's worth noting that TOAW III had more improvements than the other remakes overall and the equipment editor was added post-release. The point I'm making is that this release is right in line with what we promised to deliver for these Talonsoft updated releases.

_____________________________

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For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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(in reply to fbs)

Post #: 26

RE: I am disappointed - 9/26/2009 7:19:09 PM

Mac Linehan

Posts: 1484
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From: Denver Colorado
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Good Morning, Gents -

I would like to express my sincere appreciation to the EDBTR team for the time and effort expended upgrading one of my all time favorite games. While rarely posting, I do follow this forum with an avid interest; in this case it is time to weigh in. As Eric and Terminus have pointed out this is not a new game engine - it is remarkable that so much more has been achieved using an engine released in 1999. (I still recall the thrill of buying the original and rushing home to play...)

quote:

original by fbs:
Wasn't there any room to assign leaders, split units, have a 1942 campaign, add an editor, add some borders to the map (so I don't bomb a French town), add Coastal Command and get them to hunt U-Boats, add some civilian casualties statistics, make the economy more realistic, or some other enhancements from the 500 that players could come with if they were asked?

fbs, all of the above would be awesome. I strongly suspect that if Hard Sarge and Team had the resources and time available some of the above might have been included. My thought on the matter is that much has already been done - as detailed n other posts; although this release may not meet everyone's expectations it is a significant, major step in the right direction. Bear in mind that the game was released less than a week ago. There is (from my perspective) a humbling array of talent (ie. computer whizzes and modders) who frequent the Matrix forums. I am confident that it wont be long before modificatons, patches and other enhancements / fixes become available.

And remember - there was first Beyond Valour (2002), which laid the foundation for WITP (2004) that was the sequential building block for WITP AE (2009) - another serious quantum leap (if your into spending enless hours micromanaging and editing an incredible array of units, map locations and ships until your eyes burn and it's the wee hours of the morning - but I digress). The point is that EDBTR is an upgrade - a solid piece of work - that stands on its own, but could quite possibly lead to other releases on the European air war somewhere down the road. I would point to the WITEast forums, one of the developers posted that even while going full bore to get WITEast out the door "We are considering a War In Europe game...." (thats the kind of thinking we players like to hear, Boys!).

Keep this in mind - Matrix started from small beginings, but with the production of high quality games coupled with outstanding support (not to mention sheer hard work) and a dedication to excellence, the company has grown to the position it holds today - a source of top notch war games (dare I say "for the serious gamer...") >grin<.

Hard Sarge - it was in November 2007 that you kindly sent me patches and enhancements for the original BoB / BTR and answered many questions. It is evident that you have put your heart and soul into this product - one has only to read the forums. Thank you and Semper Fi, Marine...

Harley - Ditto. Your editor for the original game was outstanding and enhanced my gaming experience. (HINT...)

fbs, sfbaytf, rosseau, LuckyJim1005 - if not sure about playing or purchasing the game, stick with one of your favorites and see what happens with upcoming patches and Mods. I appreciate your opinions and points of view.

To swift, Beta Players, addicts and enthusiasts of EDBTR - keep posting - the fourm is a terrific classroom for us newbies.

Mac

< Message edited by Mac Linehan -- 9/27/2009 12:35:07 AM >

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Post #: 27

RE: I am disappointed - 9/26/2009 7:36:35 PM

AttuWatcher

Posts: 489
Joined: 6/25/2009
From: Hex 181, 36
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jimbo12

I guess it is a matter of perspective and taste. Having followed the Talonsoft "reno process" from the begining I for one am very thankful to see these classic titles have all returned now.

Yes. I knew what I was getting and I'm, quite happy with it. Thank you HS, harley, and Matrix.

As for performance issues, they are never cool but they can be fixed post-release.

(in reply to jimbo12)

Post #: 28

RE: I am disappointed - 9/26/2009 7:42:39 PM

Terminus

Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DBeves

quote:

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

I have to admit I feel ripped off. $60 ($70 with shipping) is way to much for an old game like this. For a $70 game,I expect much more. It looks old and plays like an old game. I shouldn't have to mess with my settings to get it to run.That annoying hourglass problem,shaky,lags in scrolling,lousy graphics. The game is WAY overpriced. I would return it if I could.

That would kind of beg the question as to why did you buy it then ? I can say for me personally I knew - as it was clearly explained by matrix .. what they were doing with this game ... there was surely enough information out there for you to know what you were getting ... ?

Exactly. There's no excuse for not being informed about this; the product info screen for the game has been there for months and months, as has the forum.

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(in reply to DBeves)

Post #: 29

RE: I am disappointed - 9/26/2009 8:26:18 PM

gunnergoz

Posts: 447
Joined: 5/21/2002
From: San Diego CA
Status: offline

These complaints simply serve to remind me of how it is sometimes wise to not buy a game on impulse, but rather to wait and read some reviews by players or sources we trust. I have no beef with the game - don't have it - but I have been holding back on buying it just so I can learn more and confirm if it is going to be a game that will please or will disappoint for one reason or another. Not every game is for every gamer. I have bought countless PC games that I played once and quit in disgust or dislike. No more. I am more picky now (being on a pension may be part of it) and so I don't go out and buy things right off the bat any more. Maybe some of the posters with complaints would have been better served by waiting and reading the forums for while. Rushing to buy is, in my experience, an invitation to frequent disappointment.

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(in reply to Terminus)

Post #: 30

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Slitherine

I was disappointed