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Early (1943) BTR escort tactics

 
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Early (1943) BTR escort tactics - 9/27/2009 10:58:49 AM   
DBS


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This is, perhaps, pretty much a statement of the obvious. But it might be of help to newcomers, so here is a short description of how I would layer the escorts for an 8th AF raid in the first couple of months of the game. Thereafter, you start getting large numbers of escort fighters, so are almost spoilt for choice, and also you will have developed your own ideas.

At the start of the 1943 campaign, you have 4 US P-47 groups in 8th AF, plus 4 borrowed RAF squadrons with high-altitude Spitfire models. And you don't have to wait long before a fifth US group appears, with the first P-38Js. So how to use them?

Well, firstly I always send the B-17s out en masse as a single raid - you don't have enough fighters to properly escort more than one raid, and there are plenty of industrial targets and large railyards in the Low Countries and northern France, within P-47 range, which are deserving of a 300 bomber raid, especially if, like me, you forego some bombing accuracy by coming in at 28k feet to avoid all but the most powerful flak.

So having assembled the bomber force, I will normally assign two of the P-47 groups to close escort, with the third as a high escort 3k feet above and the fourth at 4k above. Once 20th FG arrives with P-38Js, they go in at 5k above. The Spitfire squadrons are then arrayed above - normally the squadron with HFVIIs at the top, say 7 or 8k above, and the others, with HFIXs, at 5 or 6k.

This will normally suffice to keep a German attack of about two Geschwaders (so six or so Gruppen, plus Stabs and extra staffels) off the backs of the B-17s with only the occasional attack getting through to the bombers and give plenty of opportunity for the fighters to score. You will probably find that the Spifires tend to take slightly disproportionate losses - they are that bit more fragile than the P-47s and furthermore any dogfight risks leaving the aircraft dispersed and at lower altitudes. The result is that single Spits quite often get jumped as the fight develops. (So do P-47s and P-38s, but they are more robust and so more likely to get away with just damage.) This is why I always put the HFVII at the top of the escort stack, since its manouevrability is not as good as the HFIX's.

Once the next batch of new fighter groups arrive, about five weeks in, I will increase the close escort to three groups, and use the others to thicken up the 2k-5k high escort bracket. Go easy with the 55th Group until you have had a chance to replace the P-38Hs with P-38Js, since the H is not very happy at high altitude.

Hope that is helpful - hardly rocket science, and equally there are, I am sure, many perfectly valid alternatives.

< Message edited by DBS -- 9/27/2009 11:00:50 AM >
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RE: Early (1943) BTR escort tactics - 9/27/2009 1:07:13 PM   
Hard Sarge


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as a side to this

I think most people are going to see the rules on Sweeps and use them the wrong way (as far I seen it)

another way to use sweeps, is to have the sent to the back side of a raid, since you are plotting the raid, you know the basic path it is going to take, you should have a idea on how long it will take to get to the target (TOT) so then can work out when they should be coming back
use FC, 2nd Tac to set up patrols (Sweep) just along the coast and over the channel, for when the raid should be coming home, these guys then have a chance to catch the LW as they chase the bombers, or after they break off there chase, by plotting them to a area that is not a target, they do not draw AA fire, and if plotted over the Channel, they got much longer legs, and can stay on patrol for a while longer

biggest thing with this though, is timing, you get there too early or too late, and it is a wasted mission (which most in Real life were)

plus you can always toss a few real sweeps around, just to keep the enemy honest, but remember, at times, sweeps can be as deadly to the Allies as they are to the enemy

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RE: Early (1943) BTR escort tactics - 10/1/2009 6:47:24 AM   
TechSgt

 

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It will just a matter of time but, "How to get the British fighters to escort the American Bombers?"

During the first half of a long campaign the Americans are short of fighter escorts, so you have to enlist the aid of the British.
So for all you new micro-managing Generals, follow along with this "basic" method.

1. Click [Bombing Mission], select a target,
1. Click [Pick Lead Unit] and select a British bomber as the lead, click [Done],
2. Click [Add Fighter Escort] and add fighter(s) -- high and/or close,
3. Click [Pick Lead Unit] and deselect the British unit, click [Done],
4. Click [Pick Lead Unit] and select an American bomber as the lead, click [Done],
5. Adjust the British fighter escort timing by selecting the escort, and right-clicking along the flight path.

Remember this is a "basic" method. Be sure to experiment.
You can get IX AF fighters to fly escorts for British Mossies FB as well as flying High Altitude escorts for the 8th AF, etc.
In Nov '43 you will want to have 2 TAF 1/109 PFF det Moss B IV's leading 226th Sqdn Mitchells escorted by 11 FC Spits, but that is another thread.


TS

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RE: Early (1943) BTR escort tactics - 10/1/2009 8:44:50 AM   
harley


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Technically this is an exploit - one that PBEM house rules should discuss. We intentionally did not stop this ability, and we deliberately did not make it easier to do... 

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RE: Early (1943) BTR escort tactics - 10/1/2009 7:59:42 PM   
Nicholas Bell

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: harley
We intentionally did not stop this ability, and we deliberately did not make it easier to do... 


Why make difficult something which is historical? Makes no sense.

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RE: Early (1943) BTR escort tactics - 10/1/2009 8:04:11 PM   
wernerpruckner


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doing this tactics may bring you some victories, but there is one big problem with mixing different bombers into one raid....the different cruising speed.
An experienced Axis player will whack several units at such an occasion.

Another problem: What is your aim for such an raid??? breaking through and hit ONE target??? There are far better escort tactics with multiple raids for optimized destruction.

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RE: Early (1943) BTR escort tactics - 10/1/2009 9:53:19 PM   
Dixie


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Whilst you can use that method to provide massive escorts to 8th AF raids, there's cock all point now that most of your 2 TAF escorts are low level tactical fighters. Either you keep your fighters at their optimal altitude and the 17s suffer, or you fly at high altitude and your escorts suffer.


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RE: Early (1943) BTR escort tactics - 10/2/2009 8:26:58 AM   
TechSgt

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: swift

doing this tactics may bring you some victories, but there is one big problem with mixing different bombers into one raid....the different cruising speed.
An experienced Axis player will whack several units at such an occasion.

Another problem: What is your aim for such an raid??? breaking through and hit ONE target??? There are far better escort tactics with multiple raids for optimized destruction.


Swift;
This is the 2 TAF's PFFs.

Remember that a PFF unit will drop bombs, through the clouds, on the secondary target. In early '44 when prepping for the invasion you can select a small target, ie AF, but put the secondary on a large target, ie city/railway or troops. If the clouds don't work out -- which seems to be most of the time -- atleast you are hitting something.

Plus... What do you do with a 4 AC unit if not to lead something.

TS

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RE: Early (1943) BTR escort tactics - 10/2/2009 8:39:52 AM   
TechSgt

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nicholas Bell

quote:

ORIGINAL: harley
We intentionally did not stop this ability, and we deliberately did not make it easier to do... 


Why make difficult something which is historical? Makes no sense.



It makes perfect sense & immersion!
1) It is historical -- early period. They had to do "something"!
2) It is difficult for the liasion between two nationalities, the extra hassle, and,

3) After the force build-ups, it become too much hassle to go through the process.

Just like what happens -- to a player -- in a '43 campaign.

TS

I will admit I have discovered some things that CAN be considered an exploit.

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RE: Early (1943) BTR escort tactics - 10/2/2009 8:43:00 AM   
TechSgt

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie


Whilst you can use that method to provide massive escorts to 8th AF raids, there's cock all point now that most of your 2 TAF escorts are low level tactical fighters. Either you keep your fighters at their optimal altitude and the 17s suffer, or you fly at high altitude and your escorts suffer.



All units will upgrade

TS!

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RE: Early (1943) BTR escort tactics - 10/2/2009 4:30:33 PM   
Hard Sarge


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nicholas Bell

quote:

ORIGINAL: harley
We intentionally did not stop this ability, and we deliberately did not make it easier to do... 


Why make difficult something which is historical? Makes no sense.



because that was the game system and the way it was designed oh, so long ago

commands can only fly with others of the same command, that is the rule, the system and that is how it was set up

this "explot" was something we found way back when, if you plotted a raid and followed the rules, it worked, but you could then, replace the lead unit, and replace it with a unit from another command, and now, you could also add in other units from the new command

in game, the IXth can't fly with the VIIIth, because of the system, but in real life, until mid 44, most of the fighters from the IXth flew with the VIIIth on a every day pattern

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RE: Early (1943) BTR escort tactics - 10/2/2009 8:51:00 PM   
Nicholas Bell

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

because that was the game system and the way it was designed oh, so long ago

commands can only fly with others of the same command, that is the rule, the system and that is how it was set up

this "explot" was something we found way back when, if you plotted a raid and followed the rules, it worked, but you could then, replace the lead unit, and replace it with a unit from another command, and now, you could also add in other units from the new command

in game, the IXth can't fly with the VIIIth, because of the system, but in real life, until mid 44, most of the fighters from the IXth flew with the VIIIth on a every day pattern


Okay, thanks for the explanation. Understand code limitations...

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