Where does the offensive in Burma start

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Where does the offensive in Burma start - 9/27/2009 3:16:00 PM

JohnDillworth

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I am starting to mass troops in Burma as the Allies in late 1942. Have an Army at Impal and another at Chittagog. Some good troops and building airpower and supplies. Where does one start the offensive? Seems there is no way out of Impal. Just rivers and jungles. Where does one start? I think amphibious is out of the question for a while. Japanese just have too much airpower for now.

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RE: Where does the offensive in Burma start - 9/27/2009 3:32:40 PM

scott64

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Probably start at Chittgong and work your way to Akyab and over one hex then straight down to Rangoon.

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RE: Where does the offensive in Burma start - 9/27/2009 10:09:41 PM

stuman

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quote:

ORIGINAL: scott1964

Probably start at Chittgong and work your way to Akyab and over one hex then straight down to Rangoon.

And be aware that supplies will be a major issue at first.

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RE: Where does the offensive in Burma start - 9/27/2009 10:12:58 PM

scott64

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If you prep for Chittigong then the supplies should flow to Chittigong.

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RE: Where does the offensive in Burma start - 9/27/2009 10:23:38 PM

stuman

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quote:

ORIGINAL: scott1964

If you prep for Chittigong then the supplies should flow to Chittigong.

True. I have had a bit of trouble with supplies for a while once I have crossed that river past Akyab into Burma proper. NOt a real problem until them. This being against AI mind you.

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RE: Where does the offensive in Burma start - 9/28/2009 12:26:43 AM

wdolson

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It takes a long time to march troops overland from Imphal, but sending some that way will force the Japanese to deal with attacks from two directions at once if you also send forces down the coast.

Bill

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RE: Where does the offensive in Burma start - 9/28/2009 12:50:31 AM

JohnDillworth

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quote:

It takes a long time to march troops overland from Imphal, but sending some that way will force the Japanese to deal with attacks from two directions at once if you also send forces down the coast.

I have about 2,200 points worth of attack. Probably 1,000 (Australian 7th, plus 1 British division plus some other good remnants) is composed of quality troops. I am defending Impal (fort 6) with 250, and using about 2,000 along Chittagog to attack. Don't have enough quality to attack along 2 fronts yet but as it is late 42 there is more and more each day. I will attack down the coast and hold the line at Impal and apply pressure as troops become available.

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RE: Where does the offensive in Burma start - 9/28/2009 8:54:01 AM

JeffroK

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Imphal to Shwebo means 2 jungle hexes, Cox's Bazaar to Akyab has none, with 1 jungle hex & a river to meet the track from Pagan.

But after Shwebo you have Mandalay & Meiktila in the way, though the road/rail net is better.

IMHO, if you have air & sea superiority concentrate on the coast road as you can support it, otherwise use the Imphal route. But still build supporting pushes from ledo etc so as to gain the attention of your opponent, maybe have a Chindit Bde or 50 Indian Para Bde up your sleeve to pick up a poorly defended base as an airhead.

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RE: Where does the offensive in Burma start - 9/28/2009 10:47:11 AM

vlcz

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The coast offensive seems the only posible way, I managed to take Shwebo from imphal but supplies are not reaching it in any quantity so no way no take mandalay. On the opposite way, even if the road south on Akyab seems "broken" supplies reach in massive amounts to bases north of rangoon.

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RE: Where does the offensive in Burma start - 9/28/2009 11:38:59 AM

Terminus

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If you start a counteroffensive in Burma this soon, you'd better be mindful of the disaster that was the first Arakan campaign.

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RE: Where does the offensive in Burma start - 9/28/2009 12:01:24 PM

vlcz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

If you start a counteroffensive in Burma this soon, you'd better be mindful of the disaster that was the first Arakan campaign.

I suppose he is against the AI, so probably obliterated the assault force by rounded them so litle to fear (other than massive numbers of old and unexperienced fighters) against a human would be different of course.

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RE: Where does the offensive in Burma start - 9/28/2009 12:47:16 PM

JeffroK

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vlcz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

If you start a counteroffensive in Burma this soon, you'd better be mindful of the disaster that was the first Arakan campaign.

I suppose he is against the AI, so probably obliterated the assault force by rounded them so litle to fear (other than massive numbers of old and unexperienced fighters) against a human would be different of course.

Until you've played the new AI, dont bother to assume that WITP standards work in AE.

From 31/3/43

Afternoon Air attack on 267th Armoured Brigade, at 57,45

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 40 NM, estimated altitude 19,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 32
Ki-48-IIb Lily x 50
Ki-61-Ia Tony x 25

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-48-IIb Lily: 5 damaged

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RE: Where does the offensive in Burma start - 9/28/2009 1:02:52 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

quote:

ORIGINAL: vlcz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

If you start a counteroffensive in Burma this soon, you'd better be mindful of the disaster that was the first Arakan campaign.

I suppose he is against the AI, so probably obliterated the assault force by rounded them so litle to fear (other than massive numbers of old and unexperienced fighters) against a human would be different of course.

Until you've played the new AI, dont bother to assume that WITP standards work in AE.

From 31/3/43

Afternoon Air attack on 267th Armoured Brigade, at 57,45

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 40 NM, estimated altitude 19,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 32
Ki-48-IIb Lily x 50
Ki-61-Ia Tony x 25

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-48-IIb Lily: 5 damaged

Hear, hear, JeffK.

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RE: Where does the offensive in Burma start - 9/28/2009 3:46:34 PM

crsutton

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The Allies did it both ways attacking down the Arakan Pennisula and overland from the Imphal plain. Burma was an impossible place to fight especially during the five month monsoon when any sort of major movment of men and supply was virtually impossible. BTW, I just learned that Akyab was an island.

The real Allied victories in Burma did not come until the closing months of the war with Rangoon falling just before the war ended. Considering the costs, I doubt that the campaign should have been fought-especially since the IJN Burma forces had been all but cut off from Japan by the loss her merchant fleet. Mitikyama was probably the only significant gain of the whole campaign. Stillwell took the airfield at a terrible cost and then withstood the siege. The capture of the airfield cut off Japanese fighter sorties against transports flying the hump and supported over 14,000 supply sorties into China.

It would have been smarter to just ignore Burma altogether and invade further down-say Malaysia. but political considerations and a critical shortage of landing craft prevented this. Of, course as the Allied player you are not bound by this and can try it out.

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RE: Where does the offensive in Burma start - 9/28/2009 3:56:17 PM

JohnDillworth

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When available I moved the Australian 7th to Burma instead of back to Australia. They are good troops and will lead the offensive down the coast. Put almost all my artillery there to so I have great hopes.

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RE: Where does the offensive in Burma start - 9/28/2009 5:54:39 PM

Q-Ball

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

It would have been smarter to just ignore Burma altogether and invade further down-say Malaysia. but political considerations and a critical shortage of landing craft prevented this. Of, course as the Allied player you are not bound by this and can try it out.

I wonder what kind of Amphibious Capability the British have in AE. In WITP, they had way too much; alot of games featured massive British and Chinese troop landings in SE Asia, and it really was a headache for Japan, because you can't cover all those beaches.

Not sure about AE.....you're pretty much dependent on xAK-P shipping until mid-43. After that, you get a trickle of craft, but not until late '44 is it anything to write home about.

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RE: Where does the offensive in Burma start - 9/28/2009 6:47:43 PM

JohnDillworth

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quote:

I wonder what kind of Amphibious Capability the British have in AE. In WITP, they had way too much; alot of games featured massive British and Chinese troop landings in SE Asia, and it really was a headache for Japan, because you can't cover all those beaches.

Not sure about AE.....you're pretty much dependent on xAK-P shipping until mid-43. After that, you get a trickle of craft, but not until late '44 is it anything to write home about.

Don't think it matters in the game nor in reality. I just don't have the air superiority I need to make an amphibious assault a reality. To many med bombers against British short range fighters. It would be a massacre

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RE: Where does the offensive in Burma start - 9/29/2009 12:13:21 AM

wdolson

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It's not a good idea to do amphibious operations with xAPs. It can be done, but they unload slowly and with high disablement rates. There are few APs period. It's best to concentrate them for invasions in the Pacific. In SE Asia, overland may not be ideal, but at least you can do it. Walking in the jungle may not be easy, but it beats the walk from Pearl Harbor to Kwajalein.

Bill

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RE: Where does the offensive in Burma start - 9/29/2009 12:38:26 AM

stuman

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Burma is the one theatre in game that I never feel like I have a good game plan for regardless of the side I play. It seems like no matter what, both sides expend more energy there than they should; but you have to; and so forth and so on.

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RE: Where does the offensive in Burma start - 9/29/2009 12:46:33 AM

JohnDillworth

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quote:

Burma is the one theatre in game that I never feel like I have a good game plan for regardless of the side I play. It seems like no matter what, both sides expend more energy there than they should; but you have to; and so forth and so on.

Seemly true in reality also

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RE: Where does the offensive in Burma start - 9/29/2009 5:14:06 AM

jtareb

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Im still playing out a game without the patch--invaded burma in late 43 after the jap ai had worn 5-6 divisions out trying to take Akyab and Imphal. I invaded burma via akyab and down through imphal as well--there was little opposition till i got to rangoon which lasted about 3 months before i could take it.

SEAsia does get alot of LSI's from 43 onward that can be used for amphib assaults but little in terms of apa's. In my new game with the patch im going to try to stick to the historical timeline in SE asia and not get too overagressive.

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RE: Where does the offensive in Burma start - 9/29/2009 5:44:14 AM

El Savior

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I managed to hold Rangoon. Japan AI made landing on Moulmen and took Pegu but their offensive was stopped in reinforced Rangoon.

May and June 1942 I made succesfull counterattack and took Pegu and Rangoon easily. I'm not going to advance any further until I receive more troops.

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RE: Where does the offensive in Burma start - 9/29/2009 6:28:08 AM

Central Blue

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If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Per the conditions you describe, I'm not making any plans to go anywhere, anytime soon.

My folks are digging in along the line from Ledo to Chittagong. They spend their spare time training. Most of the ground units are of poor quality, and train slower than the pilots everyone complains about.

And what of any significance lies inland, anyway?

If you can't get their amphibiously, just stay home.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

I am starting to mass troops in Burma as the Allies in late 1942. Have an Army at Impal and another at Chittagog. Some good troops and building airpower and supplies. Where does one start the offensive? Seems there is no way out of Impal. Just rivers and jungles. Where does one start? I think amphibious is out of the question for a while. Japanese just have too much airpower for now.

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RE: Where does the offensive in Burma start - 9/29/2009 9:12:34 AM

vlcz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Central Blue
...
And what of any significance lies inland, anyway?
....
If you can't get their amphibiously, just stay home.

I see some advantages in advancing if japan sits idle ,better so if he is soundly crushed in the india frontier..

Burma production, secondary, really not needed and posibly even can be denied by succesfull blockade of malacca.

Reopening of Burma road to supply chinese army, dubious.

And the good reason (IMO anyway)...

Keeping occupied japanese assets with your own, bounding IJA troops in this backwater theatre seems wiser than let them put a skeleton army and garrisonig bases/homeland or smashing chinese. Can be argued you are wasting troops too, but many of those are unusable anywhere at this stage of the war at least.

If he ignores the thretah and retires the troops anyway you will eventually come to places he dont want you to stay.

More blatant against IA of course, as it keeps literally hundreds of low-quality planes over there, those are not smashing chinese troops and he is spending pilots running deeper in his pool.

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RE: Where does the offensive in Burma start - 9/29/2009 2:37:49 PM

Chijohnaok2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: El Savior

I managed to hold Rangoon. Japan AI made landing on Moulmen and took Pegu but their offensive was stopped in reinforced Rangoon.

May and June 1942 I made succesfull counterattack and took Pegu and Rangoon easily. I'm not going to advance any further until I receive more troops.

In my game against the AI, I've thus far managed to hold onto Rangoon (It's mid-April 42). For a while I had a steady supply of xAKLs steaming into Rangoon to keep her supplied (~12,000-15,000 supply range). Now the Jap. have sufficient LR air to where I am losing approx. 1 out of every 2 cargo ships I send in. My supply level is now hovering at around the red zone. They even sent in a BB TF to take out some of my shipping. I have 3 fighter units in Rangoon & the base one hex over. I can't risk keeping a surface TF there for fear of the Betty's & company. The IJA has pushed up the railroad line and taken a few cities there.

I don't want to risk the 2+Hermes British CV assets to fly cover since they will likely get pasted. The immediate future for Rangoon seems iffy.

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RE: Where does the offensive in Burma start - 9/29/2009 2:59:52 PM

vlcz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: chijohnaok
....I am losing approx. 1 out of every 2 cargo ships I send in. My supply level is now hovering at around the red zone....

Dont you receive land supply? I�m in the "way back" (Oct41)just assaulting rangoon... the resource flooded from akyab to the last base I taked two hexes north(prome?) ...even if the road appears broken. perhaps if you try altering supplys demanded?

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RE: Where does the offensive in Burma start - 9/29/2009 3:44:38 PM

crsutton

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I found that once Rangoon is lost, the Allied supply situation is pretty dire. You need air transport to fly supply to Burma and there is none to be had in 1942. Pretty much mirrors what really happened. I have two emails going as the Allies. I am tempted to move some LC and APs to India to try and end run late in the war, but only if the Central Pacific campaign is going well.

Just like in the real deal, If you take the Manilla and Clark field back from the Japanese and cut the sea lanes, the war in SE Asia is over and pretty much a side show. So is there really a need to do too much in Burma? I guess it gives the Indian troops some work to do and kills some Japanese.

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RE: Where does the offensive in Burma start - 9/29/2009 4:58:28 PM

mariandavid

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I have no idea (yet) about the AE but note that the CW made no attempt to attack Burma from the Arakan. The only reason for the campaigns there was to take the airfields at Akyab and some smaller villages further south (useful both ways - the IJAA versus Calcutta, the CW to support the attacks on Mandalay). Assuming that the game is accurate, the only ways to retake Burma are against Mandalay using air-supply (historically over 80% !! was obtained in this way); by amphib against Rangoon or by land from China.

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RE: Where does the offensive in Burma start - 9/29/2009 5:26:08 PM

moonraker65

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

If you start a counteroffensive in Burma this soon, you'd better be mindful of the disaster that was the first Arakan campaign.

Quite agree. The 14th Indian Division was sent in to the Arakan and they were summarily forced to retreat back to where they started. No one tried anything then until the first Chindit expedition (Wingate) in March '43 then it was late '43 / early '44 before a major incursion took place with the second battle of Arakan and Operation Thursday (2nd Chindit expedition).

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RE: Where does the offensive in Burma start - 9/29/2009 5:34:04 PM

Canoerebel

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If AE models the real war, the offensive really doesn't begin in Burma until 1945. Until then the battle was just a long, drawn out, muddy, wet, sickly, unsupplied stalemate that was so weird that the Japs were able to take the offensive in '45 and pressure the Allies. So, if it's '42 in your game, it should mean that any offensive is doomed to fizzle out.

P.S. Yes, there were Allied offensives that accomplished some things before '45, but in AE terms we're talking about a single unit advancing one hex in jungle terrain against little opposition. For goodness sake, the Allies didn't take Rangoon until May 1945 in real life!

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 9/29/2009 5:38:17 PM >

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