Historical based vs Historical

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Historical based vs Historical

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Historical based vs Historical

Page: [1] 2 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Historical based vs Historical - 10/1/2009 8:33:08 PM

bretg80

Posts: 289
Joined: 6/8/2009
Status: offline

I read on another thread that AE is a Historical based game and not Historically accurate. What is this? Why is this? I want to be able to play against the Japanese to see how I would have faired in comparison to how the real Admirals won.

According to the Post I read, the game is designed to allow the Japanese to win. Shouldn't that just be a scenario. Shouldn't the base campaign be designed to represent the actual units, production, morale, and strategy and tactics? Yes, the Japanese will lose, but maybe they lose a whole year earlier, or maybe they lose two years later? Why is the game not representative of the WAR IN THE PACIFIC?

This issue came up with respect to the AI behavior (i.e. it cheats big time). Do we have to play PBEM games to get any realistic play out of the game. Is there a way to modify the base scenarios so the AI doesn't cheat?

Post #: 1

RE: Historical based vs Historical - 10/1/2009 8:37:06 PM

Swayin

Posts: 317
Joined: 1/27/2007
From: Bellingham, WA
Status: offline

I think the game has been redesigned to give a Japanese player or the Japanese AI a better shot - but designed for them to "win?" I don't see that ... JMHO.

_____________________________

The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves

(in reply to bretg80)

Post #: 2

RE: Historical based vs Historical - 10/1/2009 8:37:16 PM

Terminus

Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline

I'd like to know who wrote the thread you're referring to. Could you provide a link to it?

For the record, AE is as historically accurate as the combined knowledge of the AE development team was able to make it.

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to bretg80)

Post #: 3

RE: Historical based vs Historical - 10/1/2009 8:38:13 PM

Terminus

Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Swayin

I think the game has been redesigned to give a Japanese player or the Japanese AI a better shot - but designed for them to "win?" I don't see that ... JMHO.

The Japanese AI has certainly been improved, as has the Allied, but I've seen enough whining fanboys of both sides to be convinced that it's not favouring either.

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to Swayin)

Post #: 4

RE: Historical based vs Historical - 10/1/2009 8:38:55 PM

Terminus

Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline

And BTW, all AIs EVERYWHERE cheat.

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to Terminus)

Post #: 5

RE: Historical based vs Historical - 10/1/2009 8:50:56 PM

Barb

Posts: 2503
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Bratislava, Slovakia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bretg80

I read on another thread that AE is a Historical based game and not Historically accurate. What is this? Why is this? I want to be able to play against the Japanese to see how I would have faired in comparison to how the real Admirals won.

According to the Post I read, the game is designed to allow the Japanese to win. Shouldn't that just be a scenario. Shouldn't the base campaign be designed to represent the actual units, production, morale, and strategy and tactics? Yes, the Japanese will lose, but maybe they lose a whole year earlier, or maybe they lose two years later? Why is the game not representative of the WAR IN THE PACIFIC?

This issue came up with respect to the AI behavior (i.e. it cheats big time). Do we have to play PBEM games to get any realistic play out of the game. Is there a way to modify the base scenarios so the AI doesn't cheat?

1. Dont know where you read it - you will not find another game of this level so detailed and accurate as WITP:AE
2. Japanese can "win" by points. If they manage to have 4 times allied victory points in 1943 (3 times in 1944 and 2 times in 1945), they will be declared victors - but you can still continue the game (the same rule applies for Allies)
3. Main Campaign is designed exactly like you said - it depends on how lucky/skilled you are
4. There was big enhancement of AI capabilities to force human players off ballance and surprise them (So it will do tricky things not attempted in history - AI is built to represent moves the actual player could do). Of course AI is still AI so it needs certain help (like ALMOST unlimited airplanes) because if it havent had the help, the game will not be challenging (like having IJAAF/IJNAF without airplanes)

_____________________________

(in reply to bretg80)

Post #: 6

RE: Historical based vs Historical - 10/1/2009 8:59:01 PM

Knavey

Posts: 3052
Joined: 9/12/2002
From: Valrico, Florida
Status: offline

Will give you an example of how historically accurate this game is...

My grandfather was a Marine with the 3rd USMC defense battalion. He landed on Efate prior to Guadalcanal breaking loose. He sailed on the SS Crescent City at that time. He remembered the name of that ship (the only one of many that he sailed on during the war) because it was clean and the sailors treated the Marines well.

I just started playing the Guadalcanal scenario in PBEM game. I opened the 1st turn, saw the SS Crescent City in a TF headed for Guadalcanal with...you guessed it...the 3rd USMC Defense Battalion embarked on it.

Bretg80...when you find another game that manages that detail...let me know.

_____________________________

x-Nuc twidget
CVN-71
USN 87-93
"Going slow in the fast direction"

(in reply to Barb)

Post #: 7

RE: Historical based vs Historical - 10/1/2009 9:10:37 PM

Tomcat

Posts: 131
Joined: 1/29/2003
From: Dallas
Status: offline

It seems to me that one of the unspoken "issues" here is that historically Japan had no real chance of winning the war. Yamamoto warned his government about this, and the historians I have read lately consider the Japanese attack on the US an act of national suicide. so, historically playing as the US would present not much of a challenge if the player simply followed history, and if the game simply modeled Japanese limitations and American resources. On the other hand, even the "historical" setting of AE gives the Japanese player more of an even chance than in real life. THe comments I have seen on this forum seem mostly favorable towards the fact that the Japanese side gives the allied player more of a challenge.

(in reply to Knavey)

Post #: 8

RE: Historical based vs Historical - 10/1/2009 9:14:22 PM

Mynok

Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bretg80
Do we have to play PBEM games to get any realistic play out of the game. Is there a way to modify the base scenarios so the AI doesn't cheat?

Define realistic. PBEM is the most challenging way of playing this game, and the most fun IMO. It is the closest you will get to 're-living' the Pacific War.

_____________________________

"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown

(in reply to bretg80)

Post #: 9

RE: Historical based vs Historical - 10/1/2009 9:23:30 PM

Nikademus

Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bretg80

I read on another thread that AE is a Historical based game and not Historically accurate. What is this? Why is this? I want to be able to play against the Japanese to see how I would have faired in comparison to how the real Admirals won.

Problem with creating a historical game is that its not a simple matter of putting all the playing pieces that were there on the map. As for comparing how you'd play against the Japanese, you already have a big ahistorical advantage.....YOU are in total control of all Allied forces on Turn 2. no command issues, no multinational agenda issues....no "ABDA". Right away your in an ahistorical situation. oops!

In the end, your playing a game and inherantly there are going to be abstractions and distortions, many of which are created by players themselves, the more control they are given. Thats the double edge sword of GG games....lots of detail, lots of control.....great immersion, but also room for great distortion.

The most accurate simulation on a level such as WitP would be the most boring and hence the most unsellable......you, in a room with a map and a teleprompter....you get reports, you issue orders based on what you see and your commander's carry it out to the best that they see fit.

_____________________________

(in reply to bretg80)

Post #: 10

RE: Historical based vs Historical - 10/1/2009 9:32:32 PM

ltfightr

Posts: 537
Joined: 6/16/2002
From: Little Rock AR
Status: offline

It is also Ahistoric from the beggining due to simple hindsite. You know that Raubal is importaint and Port Moresby is vital. You also know how lightly defended a lot of theses areas are if you grab them early. you know Subs will eat your lunch if you are Japan and start making sub hunting a priority. You also know pilots are an issue. The other big thing is that you know the fate of your nation and the blood of your men need not be factored. You can always restart or reload. The digital dead don't haunt your dreams.

_____________________________

Support the Boy Scouts buy Popcorn!
http://www.trails-end.com/estore/scouts/email_referral.jsp?id=3133025

(in reply to bretg80)

Post #: 11

RE: Historical based vs Historical - 10/1/2009 10:13:53 PM

JeffroK

Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Knavey

Will give you an example of how historically accurate this game is...

My grandfather was a Marine with the 3rd USMC defense battalion. He landed on Efate prior to Guadalcanal breaking loose. He sailed on the SS Crescent City at that time. He remembered the name of that ship (the only one of many that he sailed on during the war) because it was clean and the sailors treated the Marines well.

I just started playing the Guadalcanal scenario in PBEM game. I opened the 1st turn, saw the SS Crescent City in a TF headed for Guadalcanal with...you guessed it...the 3rd USMC Defense Battalion embarked on it.

Bretg80...when you find another game that manages that detail...let me know.

Good to see they got that unit correct, but I dont see the game designed to help the japanese win. (Yes, the AI gives them a big helping hand especially in aircraft production.)

13 Australian Bde should start in Perth, its Bns have been spread around other locations in West Aust, Bde+ sized forces have been spread around other IRL ungarrisoned bases in Australia like Portland, Sale, Broken Hill & Wagga Wagga. I understand the reason, and dont like it, but dont claim the game is any where near as historically accurate as it could be.

IMHO, if the developers wanted to have an ahistorical setup to help the AI, they should have a Historical Scenario for PBEM, JFB Scenario with historical japanese but altered Allied & AFB Scenario with historical Allied but altered japanese.

This would have satisfied all, and kept to the advertised historical accuracy.

_____________________________

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

(in reply to Knavey)

Post #: 12

RE: Historical based vs Historical - 10/1/2009 11:17:13 PM

Mike Scholl

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Problem with creating a historical game is that its not a simple matter of putting all the playing pieces that were there on the map. As for comparing how you'd play against the Japanese, you already have a big ahistorical advantage.....YOU are in total control of all Allied forces on Turn 2. no command issues, no multinational agenda issues....no "ABDA". Right away your in an ahistorical situation. oops!

As are the Japanese, with the IJN and the IJA living in perfect harmony and cooperation. Unfortunately, short of a multi-player, multi-faction game with individual victory conditions this is inevitable. Maybe with WITP IV in 2030...

(in reply to Nikademus)

Post #: 13

RE: Historical based vs Historical - 10/2/2009 12:27:37 AM

wdolson

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline

Any game uses a model of reality. And any model is going to have differences from the original. A plastic model of an F-14 can get quite realistic looking, but it will never be capable of flying off a carrier or anything else. A flying model of an F-14 will have major visual differences with the real thing because accuracy had to be sacrificed to get the thing to fly.

AE makes every attempt to be as accurate as possible. You get the historic units on the time frame they really appeared. We have done everything we can to model the unit composition as close as possible to historic reality. We have also done everything we can to model the game engine to recreate the war as accurately as possible.

There are many, many things that aren't 100% accurate for many reasons:
1) The exact composition or location of a unit on a given date is unknown. So we made an educated guess.
2) The exact composition of a unit was not possible within the game. This is especially true for many air units. At various times, different air units had mixes of aircraft, but the game engine is one aircraft type per unit, so a compromise had to be made.
3) The game engine couldn't handle something, so we needed to do a work around.
4) Finally, one of the biggest factors, 20/20 hindsight and player omnipotence. As a player you have a degree of knowledge and control that no real world commander has ever had and you also have access to intel the real world commanders didn't have: history books. That's going to skew things in many ways that we have difficulty controlling. The AI does some things it may have been historically able to do, but didn't do to throw the human player a few curve balls. If the AI stuck to the historical timeline, it would be much easier to beat since you'd know what's coming next and can prepare better than your side ever could historically.

All that said, I think this game is the most ambitious attempt to be tri-phibious (air, sea, and land) and be accurate in all three areas. In that, I think we did a pretty good job.

If you only compare a game to the real war, it's going to come up short. If you also factor in other games that have attempted to model the same thing, I think AE scores much higher than anyone else.

Bill

_____________________________

WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

(in reply to Mike Scholl)

Post #: 14

RE: Historical based vs Historical - 10/2/2009 5:45:02 AM

bretg80

Posts: 289
Joined: 6/8/2009
Status: offline

Good discussion and thanks for the feedback. I guess my issue is the cheating AI and the unlimited air production. That will obviously skew battles and cause losses that would not be the case without this cheat. Why does the A/I need this kind of unrealistic help. Another thing I read is that the A/I knows where all of your units are (kind of an omnipresent radar). Very unrealistic if true, because one of the main reasons the Americans were so successful is that the Japanese had little or no knowledge of what the American's were up to during the war. If you are playing the Japanese, well then I'm fine with that.

So, not so historical if the A/I is playing as GOD. I also heard that the US production is crippled. Again, my question is, why not have a SUPER Japanese scenario that makes the game hard for those who want to play an unrealistic version of the war.

I noticed in WITP when I was playing the 1945 scenario that even when I was pounding the Japanese from the air, they were still building and deploying huge numbers of ships and fighters. Not realistic in the real war. Once and island or factory was destroyed, the Japanese were not able to rebuild it quickly. Not sure about AE, but in WITP, the GOD A/I was rebuilding everything overnight practically. Haven't gotten far in AE yet to see how this goes, but wanted to ask the question about the A/I.

Thanks for the insight.

P.S here is the link to the other thread that riled me up.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2254776

I do agree that the units and availability are historical in the game and just so everyone knows, I'm a huge WITP and WITP/AE player and fan. Love the game and just want to know that it is a realistic as possible. Realizing that personalities in the real war played much more of a factor than unlimited planes used by the A/I. I'm sure it will be many years before AE is enhanced or another game comes along to handle the idiosyncratic behaviors of McArthur, Nimitz, and King, to name just a few. Oh and if you think the Americans were bad, the Japanese commanders actually inflated their battle results and successes much to the demise of their fellow commanders during significant battles.

Keep 'em dying.

(in reply to wdolson)

Post #: 15

RE: Historical based vs Historical - 10/2/2009 7:39:12 AM

castor troy

Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomcat

It seems to me that one of the unspoken "issues" here is that historically Japan had no real chance of winning the war. Yamamoto warned his government about this, and the historians I have read lately consider the Japanese attack on the US an act of national suicide. so, historically playing as the US would present not much of a challenge if the player simply followed history, and if the game simply modeled Japanese limitations and American resources. On the other hand, even the "historical" setting of AE gives the Japanese player more of an even chance than in real life. THe comments I have seen on this forum seem mostly favorable towards the fact that the Japanese side gives the allied player more of a challenge.

and Japan has no real chance of winning the war in AE either (nor WITP). Of course if the Allied player (I�m speaking about PBEM) does enough wrong, then the Japanese still can take out more or less the whole map, therfore "winning" the game (not only points). If the Japanese player is "smart" enough and the Allied player does it wrong then you can sink all Allied CVs and BBs and CAs etc and the IJN is still in good shape. But that only depends on what the two players are doing. Not different to real life.

On turn one history is thrown overboard but there�s no game on the market that is closer to the historical setup than WITP and AE.

_____________________________

(in reply to Tomcat)

Post #: 16

RE: Historical based vs Historical - 10/2/2009 9:11:54 AM

wdolson

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bretg80

Good discussion and thanks for the feedback. I guess my issue is the cheating AI and the unlimited air production. That will obviously skew battles and cause losses that would not be the case without this cheat. Why does the A/I need this kind of unrealistic help. Another thing I read is that the A/I knows where all of your units are (kind of an omnipresent radar). Very unrealistic if true, because one of the main reasons the Americans were so successful is that the Japanese had little or no knowledge of what the American's were up to during the war. If you are playing the Japanese, well then I'm fine with that.

So, not so historical if the A/I is playing as GOD. I also heard that the US production is crippled. Again, my question is, why not have a SUPER Japanese scenario that makes the game hard for those who want to play an unrealistic version of the war.

I noticed in WITP when I was playing the 1945 scenario that even when I was pounding the Japanese from the air, they were still building and deploying huge numbers of ships and fighters. Not realistic in the real war. Once and island or factory was destroyed, the Japanese were not able to rebuild it quickly. Not sure about AE, but in WITP, the GOD A/I was rebuilding everything overnight practically. Haven't gotten far in AE yet to see how this goes, but wanted to ask the question about the A/I.

Thanks for the insight.

P.S here is the link to the other thread that riled me up. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2254776

I do agree that the units and availability are historical in the game and just so everyone knows, I'm a huge WITP and WITP/AE player and fan. Love the game and just want to know that it is a realistic as possible. Realizing that personalities in the real war played much more of a factor than unlimited planes used by the A/I. I'm sure it will be many years before AE is enhanced or another game comes along to handle the idiosyncratic behaviors of McArthur, Nimitz, and King, to name just a few. Oh and if you think the Americans were bad, the Japanese commanders actually inflated their battle results and successes much to the demise of their fellow commanders during significant battles.

Keep 'em dying.

I don't believe the AI has any omnipotent ability on easy or historical. I think it starts peeking at your stuff on harder settings. The problem with making an AI, especially for a game like this is that it has no strategic depth. A chess AI gets there by calculating all the possible moves and then picking the best option. It's a brute force approach that has only been possible as PCs have matured. A modern PC doesn't have the computing power to calculate all the possible strategic implications of an action out even more than a day or two. Something a human mind can do quite easily.

So all wargame AIs need some help and all cheat in one way or another. With WitP, it's easier to see the guy behind the curtain. I've been playing a campaign against the AI since just before release and the AI's over production of aircraft does make some things tougher, but the AI does tend to throw away planes in ways a human player wouldn't. We do a bit better than stock in this, but there are limits to what we can do. So the extra planes are there to keep the AI from strangling due to lack of aircraft. It's ahistorical, but you aren't playing against someone as good as Yammamoto or Nimitz (though Andy does have a lot of nasty tricks programmed into the AI).

As far as American production being broken. It isn't. We have found a few specific cases where the production numbers were a little off and we're fixing what we've found for patch 2. In a database this big, there are bound to be errors. You don't get the full output of American production because the bulk of production went to Europe and that portion isn't in the game. So no more B-17s after mid-1942 and B-26s end too. Some other types of aircraft show up later than their original production dates or in smaller numbers because of what was being diverted to Europe.

The Allies don't get the control over production the Japanese do. The situation for the Allies was very different, especially the US. The US had a few production bottlenecks, but far fewer than Japan. Japan had to always balance production against needs and some things got shorted because there weren't enough resources. That can be modeled in the game, but trying to model the US industry the same way it would be too easy to overwhelm Japan.

Bill

_____________________________

WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

(in reply to bretg80)

Post #: 17

RE: Historical based vs Historical - 10/2/2009 10:02:33 AM

Djordje

Posts: 537
Joined: 9/12/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bretg80

Good discussion and thanks for the feedback. I guess my issue is the cheating AI and the unlimited air production. That will obviously skew battles and cause losses that would not be the case without this cheat. Why does the A/I need this kind of unrealistic help. Another thing I read is that the A/I knows where all of your units are (kind of an omnipresent radar). Very unrealistic if true, because one of the main reasons the Americans were so successful is that the Japanese had little or no knowledge of what the American's were up to during the war. If you are playing the Japanese, well then I'm fine with that.

So, not so historical if the A/I is playing as GOD. I also heard that the US production is crippled. Again, my question is, why not have a SUPER Japanese scenario that makes the game hard for those who want to play an unrealistic version of the war.

I noticed in WITP when I was playing the 1945 scenario that even when I was pounding the Japanese from the air, they were still building and deploying huge numbers of ships and fighters. Not realistic in the real war. Once and island or factory was destroyed, the Japanese were not able to rebuild it quickly. Not sure about AE, but in WITP, the GOD A/I was rebuilding everything overnight practically. Haven't gotten far in AE yet to see how this goes, but wanted to ask the question about the A/I.

Thanks for the insight.

P.S here is the link to the other thread that riled me up. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2254776

I do agree that the units and availability are historical in the game and just so everyone knows, I'm a huge WITP and WITP/AE player and fan. Love the game and just want to know that it is a realistic as possible. Realizing that personalities in the real war played much more of a factor than unlimited planes used by the A/I. I'm sure it will be many years before AE is enhanced or another game comes along to handle the idiosyncratic behaviors of McArthur, Nimitz, and King, to name just a few. Oh and if you think the Americans were bad, the Japanese commanders actually inflated their battle results and successes much to the demise of their fellow commanders during significant battles.

Keep 'em dying.

You are reading it wrong, it is not Japanese who are getting help... it is the AI. Play as Japan and you will see that allied AI is getting exactly the same help - almost unlimited airplanes, easier movement, knowledge about your units and some other bonuses...

What I don't get it is why people look at AI's turn in thee first place, and as a consequence have problem with this. It is the end result that matters, not how AI does it, and end result is that games are much more fun and challenging this way. For exact ways things happened there are history books, everything else is simulation since the first time you do something different than it was in reality you are in unknown territory... And that usually happens on first turn you play.

You can't really expect AI to have same limited resources and rules as human player, and to perform at the same level as human does. You can bet that AI programmer that manages to make such AI would no longer make games, he would be in some top secret military facility working under 1 billion dollar contract for the army.

(in reply to bretg80)

Post #: 18

RE: Historical based vs Historical - 10/2/2009 10:06:04 AM

bklooste

Posts: 1104
Joined: 4/10/2006
Status: offline

You cant be Historically accurate since
1) You use an AI .. all AIs are brain dead and don't learn. eg In WITP Japan would happily throw half her fleet piecemeal into some well defended point. Even still if you do weird things like as Japan leave the Phillipines and go for Ceylon and New Caladonia you are likely to have a broken AI.
2) You have 20/20 historical vision and know tactics that worked and failed.

AIs are just too stupid. You may feel good but its not historical .

If you want any sense of realism play PBEM its nerve wrecking.

(in reply to wdolson)

Post #: 19

RE: Historical based vs Historical - 10/2/2009 12:06:18 PM

wdolson

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline

Just FYI, Japan does have a chance to win the game (on points), it just can't win the war. Given enough time, the Allies can run the board and capture every single base. Against a good player or with a weak Allied player, that may take longer than you have allotted in the game, but Japan never stood a chance in a protracted war against a determined enemy.

The game is structured so Japan can win by getting enough victory points. They won't own the map, but they will have the Allies in a position where the war will run into the 1950s if it were a real situation.

Bill

_____________________________

WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

(in reply to bklooste)

Post #: 20

RE: Historical based vs Historical - 10/2/2009 1:50:52 PM

pmelheck1

Posts: 610
Joined: 4/3/2003
From: Alabama
Status: offline

When I made the statement earlier concerning historical vs historical based it's because at the end of the day AE is a game not a simulator.� While very well researched history is sacrificed for playability.� This is not necessarily a bad thing.� The sacrifice of history is done to provide a better AI.� As long as one understands this going on one will not be near as upset when one looks at the AI side.� I tried to show my son the AI side to express that while things were bad on the allied side the Japanese had it worse.� However when we looked at the Japanese side all he asked is why didn't the Japanese win the war with 1000's of each aircraft in the pools and all air units and ground units maxed.� 5-10 bomber squadrons flying from level one airfields ect.� Some aircraft had more planes in the pool than were produced during the war.� No one can tell me this is historic.� I was looking at the GAME as a SIMULATOR.� No matter how well researched one side is� if the other is not limited to historical levels it isn't historical.� If you triple the number of units Napolian had at Waterloo the game is based on Waterloo not a historical game of Waterloo.� Unlimited replacements for the AI makes the game non historic as neither side had unlimited replacements of men and aircraft.� This by no means makes the game bad but just understand what the game is and what it isn't.� The game is still fantastic but if it's historical based rather than historical then historical anomalies become moot at that point.� If I was playing a Waterloo game I would be VERY upset if new units were added or if Napoleon had unlimited replacements to keep his units at full strength regardless of losses.� Such changes become much easier to take when one understands the difference between game and simulator.�

also historical based IS NOT a dirty word all what if type games and scenarios are historical based.

< Message edited by mullk -- 10/2/2009 1:54:40 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to wdolson)

Post #: 21

RE: Historical based vs Historical - 10/2/2009 1:57:32 PM

Walloc

Posts: 3141
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: Denmark
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

And BTW, all AIs EVERYWHERE cheat.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2256849

quote:

ORIGINAL: Time Traveller

Hi all. Enjoying this game a lot. Brings back old memories. But I have a question. Does the AI in EDBTR cheat with production numbers, intelligence, etc? The reason I ask is because from what I have read, the AI totally cheats in War in the Pacific AE (teleporting convoys, massive production advantages, god eye intelligence, etc). All that AI cheating has turned me off from purchasing WITP AE. I am really hoping there is no AI cheating going on in EDBTR.

quote:

ORIGINAL: harley

Not really. Combat is clean - no bonuses either way, production is true - the AI gets the same FACs with the same potential output, I took out the AI routine to sweep occupied airfields, (yes, that was a cheat from the old game) and replaced it with a weighting system based on spotted units on the ground, spotted flak and the age of the recon.

I can't think of anything that could be considered cheating. If you have something you think might be, please let me know and I'll investigate.

Make ur own conclusions,

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 10/2/2009 1:59:41 PM >

(in reply to Terminus)

Post #: 22

RE: Historical based vs Historical - 10/2/2009 7:50:11 PM

Valgua

Posts: 218
Joined: 11/10/2006
From: Uppsala, Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

And BTW, all AIs EVERYWHERE cheat.

With the exception of Galactic Civilizations II, but of course it is not nearly as complex as WitP.
However, many of the complaints are NOT about the AI cheating, but about HOW it cheats. There are cheats, like an infinite amount of airplanes, that actually ruin many historical strategies for the human player. I refer what I read on the forums. Personally, I am avoiding the issue with PBEM.

_____________________________

(in reply to Terminus)

Post #: 23

RE: Historical based vs Historical - 10/2/2009 8:42:03 PM

JWE

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bretg80
I read on another thread that AE is a Historical based game and not Historically accurate. What is this? Why is this? I want to be able to play against the Japanese to see how I would have faired in comparison to how the real Admirals won.

There is no difference between the terms, if you think about it. This is a commercial computer wargame. The game is set in the Pacific Theater of WW-II. The game attempts to give each player the �historical� tools that each side would have had, in terms of ships, and divisions, and air groups, and such. The game also attempts to model interactions between these units on a �historical� basis.

But as soon as a player runs turn-1, the game becomes �historically based�, because as soon as they move one battalion in a manner different from reality, the whole idea of �historical� is closed, and must become �historically based�.

It is �historically based� because the player gets only those ships, divisions, and air groups they really got, but the player is free to use them in a manner different from the actual participants, limited, of course, by the �historical� constraints imposed on the actual participants.

Don�t get tangled up in the definitional underwear. The concept is simple and quite straightforward.

_____________________________

Home of DaBabes

(in reply to bretg80)

Post #: 24

RE: Historical based vs Historical - 10/2/2009 8:45:16 PM

Terminus

Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Valgua

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

And BTW, all AIs EVERYWHERE cheat.

With the exception of Galactic Civilizations II, but of course it is not nearly as complex as WitP.
However, many of the complaints are NOT about the AI cheating, but about HOW it cheats. There are cheats, like an infinite amount of airplanes, that actually ruin many historical strategies for the human player. I refer what I read on the forums. Personally, I am avoiding the issue with PBEM.

Again, all AI's cheat. Without exception.

Anybody who thinks differently needs to wake up.

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to Valgua)

Post #: 25

RE: Historical based vs Historical - 10/2/2009 10:48:51 PM

stuman

Posts: 3907
Joined: 9/14/2008
From: Elvis' Hometown
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

quote:

ORIGINAL: bretg80
I read on another thread that AE is a Historical based game and not Historically accurate. What is this? Why is this? I want to be able to play against the Japanese to see how I would have faired in comparison to how the real Admirals won.

There is no difference between the terms, if you think about it. This is a commercial computer wargame. The game is set in the Pacific Theater of WW-II. The game attempts to give each player the �historical� tools that each side would have had, in terms of ships, and divisions, and air groups, and such. The game also attempts to model interactions between these units on a �historical� basis.

But as soon as a player runs turn-1, the game becomes �historically based�, because as soon as they move one battalion in a manner different from reality, the whole idea of �historical� is closed, and must become �historically based�.

It is �historically based� because the player gets only those ships, divisions, and air groups they really got, but the player is free to use them in a manner different from the actual participants, limited, of course, by the �historical� constraints imposed on the actual participants.

Don�t get tangled up in the definitional underwear. The concept is simple and quite straightforward.

Sometimes, late at night, after many drinks, I do in fact seem to get tangled up in my underwear. But that might be a different issue.

_____________________________

" Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room. " President Muffley

(in reply to JWE)

Post #: 26

RE: Historical based vs Historical - 10/3/2009 2:06:05 AM

aspqrz02

Posts: 1024
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

The game is structured so Japan can win by getting enough victory points.� They won't own the map, but they will have the Allies in a position where the war will run into the 1950s if it were a real situation.

Except for the mushroom clouds over select Japanese cities starting from August(ish) 1945 if the allies have bases (even in the Aleutians, one suspects) in range of the B-29's ... or, if worse comes to worst, in 1946(ish) as they ramp up the B-36 program and can bomb from further away and at higher altitudes

Remember, the B-29 program was already underway before 7DEC41 (as was, IIRC, the B-36) and the Manhattan Engineering District was signed into activity on 6DEC41 ... those bombs, and the method of delivering them, are going to come online and put the Japs in a world of hurt sometime in the last half of 1945.

Even if they don't bomb the Home Islands directly to begin with because of range problems, they can certainly find major Fleet Bases within range ... and wipe out other major bases to make island hopping unneccessary ... and note that the participants estimated they'd have in excess of 12 bombs ready by the end of 45 and that production rates would rise to 15-20 per month by early 1946.

And that ignores the possibility of a Soviet invasion occurring more or less on time as well.

Nope. The Japs were going down ... in a radioactive dust cloud if necessary. 1950 isn't on the cards. Not even close

Phil

_____________________________

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon; Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
----------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@tpg.com.au

(in reply to wdolson)

Post #: 27

RE: Historical based vs Historical - 10/3/2009 5:08:25 AM

Time Traveller

Posts: 27
Joined: 10/25/2008
Status: offline

I'm sure I'll be attacked by the usual fanboys here, but I'm going to post this anyways. For quite awhile now I have been watching all the apologists trying to blindly defend very serious design flaws in the AE edition. Much of the 'improved' AI difficulty in AE is just more cheats enabled? Historical game play was thrown out the window due to all the pleas from the hardcore players wanting more of a challenge against the AI? I have no problem with massively cheating AI if it's an optional setting or scenario. Unfortunately from what I have read, all this AI cheating occurs even on normal or historical settings in all scenarios. And it appears the game's designers have no ability or intention of correcting these flaws. That is a major turn off for me. And for that reason I will not be purchasing the AE version. Flame away.� �

< Message edited by Time Traveller -- 10/3/2009 5:14:56 AM >

(in reply to aspqrz02)

Post #: 28

RE: Historical based vs Historical - 10/3/2009 5:17:13 AM

Mike Scholl

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Time Traveller

I'm sure I'll be attacked by the usual fanboys here, but I'm going to post this anyways. For quite awhile now I have been watching all the apologists trying to blindly defend very serious design flaws in AE edition. Much of the improved AI difficulty in AE is just more cheats enabled? Historical game play was thrown out the window due to all the pleas from the hardcore players wanting more of a challenge? I have no problem with massively cheating AI if it's an optional setting or scenario. Unfortunately from what I have read, all this AI cheating occurs even on normal or historical settings in all scenarios. That is a major turn off for me. And for that reason I will not be purchasing AE version. Flame away.

Nothing to attack you for (except that you totally ignore the possibility of playing the game PBEM against a live opponant).

The majority of players who play only against the AI requested that it be more challenging..., and the designer's responded. If that isn't what you wanted, then you are right not to buy it. But you will miss out on a truly great gaming experiance by not trying it against a real thinking opponant.

(in reply to Time Traveller)

Post #: 29

RE: Historical based vs Historical - 10/3/2009 5:26:44 AM

Time Traveller

Posts: 27
Joined: 10/25/2008
Status: offline

I play WITP, and yes, I know the AI cheats some in the original. But the cheating isn't nearly as bad as I have been reading about AE. At least I can play half-way historical style and still win. I would purchase AE if there was a way to turn off many of the AI cheats or bonuses with the scenario editor. Unfortunately, I don't think this is possible. Anyone?

(in reply to Mike Scholl)

Post #: 30