Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

Yes, we get it Mynok!! If fact we get it over and over and over again. Why don't you just stop with your rhetoric. Nothing you say about the virtues of a PBEM game can be thought of as a religious revelation. El Cid was preaching this as has everyone else for years about WITP and now WITP-AE, what a surprise PBEM is better that solo play.

Do you think that your not going to get into heaven unless you succeed in your life's mission to convert the masses?

Rant over but really Jeez Louise!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

I encourage PBEM because there might be new players afraid of it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Gentlemen,

Again, thank you for your very positive feedback re: the PBEM experience that AE has to offer. I've done PBEM and it was fun. I also have had lots of fun with AI. Yes, I went back to AI after doing PBEM. I did it because of convenience, ease of scheduling, etc.

Please see my previous posts for why the "PBEM is better than AI" argument is not the crux of my initial post nor the spirit of this thread that I wished to invoke. Clearly the game HAS an AI experience that is, by all standards, improved over WiTP.

I'm hoping to discuss the limitations of the AI model and make this play experience more satisfactory. PBEM can be a good thing, but it's also a non-sequitor for purposes of this discussion.

Warm regards,

Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
I'm hoping to discuss the limitations of the AI model and make this play experience more satisfactory. PBEM can be a good thing, but it's also a non-sequitor for purposes of this discussion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mullk

For some of us the issue of PBEM has nothing to do with time.  I don't care how long or short PBEM is.  If turns took 15 seconds I DON'T CARE.  I just don't like two player games and I never will.  I NEVER buy any game that is two player only.  I am so disgusted with 2 player games I will quit computers before returning to them.  I do believe Matrix will get the AI working better at some point.  If I didn't think they can fix the AI I wouldn't be here and wouldn't buy anymore games from matrix if they can't program an AI.  AE is a very complex game requiring a very complex AI and from my experience with Matrix they will correct the AI.  But for some of us PBEM is not an issue for AI issues.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
I'm hoping to discuss the limitations of the AI model and make this play experience more satisfactory. PBEM can be a good thing, but it's also a non-sequitor for purposes of this discussion.

I guess the unsaid portion of my original post encouraging PBEM is the corollary that most of your AI concerns are not going away. I'm certain Andy and Matrix will continue to put effort into the AI, but it IS going to break the rules, and you ARE going to be able to tell.

I'm not trying to discourage you, just trying to lower your expectations for it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mullk

I just don't enjoy 2 player in any game. I have tried it and it's just not my cup of tea. I don't think 2 player is bad.

I have 2 sons with 3 computers all networked and I really don't enjoy any kind of multi player with them (and yes I have tried several games). They enjoy the heck out of it and I don't discourage them but I just don't enjoy it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mullk

I'm only hoping they try to work on it. I understand it might no be possible to improve the AI with anything less than a CRAY. If it's not possible that's fine with me and I'll accept gladly knowing somethings are just not possible. But I'm not about to give up on AE scream "The AI sucks I'm out of here." AE is fantastic and as far as I know nothing on this scale has been attempted before. If it takes Matrix a while to get it right as best they can I'll still be here.

back in my old war game days I remember reading some designer's notes about the game that remind me of AE. Most Grand strategy games for the PC are an amoeba the size of an elephant (lots of hexes and lots of units just not a lot of variation). WITP/AE on the other hand isn't a amoeba but an elephant playing a violin while doing the waltz and singing a serenade.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mullk

The only idea that really gives my and I'm sure others pause is one game taking longer than  the actual war (if you finish the game).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Swayin

Whoever said you were sentient? <<poke, poke>

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok
Most of those other games aren't on my computer anymore either, while this one remains and has since the days of UV.

There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and the enemy. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion.

Gen. William Thornson, U.S. Army

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

quote:

ORIGINAL: mullk

I'm only hoping they try to work on it. I understand it might no be possible to improve the AI with anything less than a CRAY. If it's not possible that's fine with me and I'll accept gladly knowing somethings are just not possible. But I'm not about to give up on AE scream "The AI sucks I'm out of here." AE is fantastic and as far as I know nothing on this scale has been attempted before. If it takes Matrix a while to get it right as best they can I'll still be here.

back in my old war game days I remember reading some designer's notes about the game that remind me of AE. Most Grand strategy games for the PC are an amoeba the size of an elephant (lots of hexes and lots of units just not a lot of variation). WITP/AE on the other hand isn't a amoeba but an elephant playing a violin while doing the waltz and singing a serenade.

It's scripted now, so I'm certain there are definitely ways to improve it. However, a lot of Chickenboy's concerns were about the AI cheating. Those....well.....bottom line is those aren't going away. They might change a bit, but two facts will remain:

1) The AI will cheat
2) You will notice

Just the way it is.

As for 2 player, you might be surprised to know that this is the only game at which I'm a dedicated PBEM player. Most of my other games I've had I played mostly against the AI. Had fun doing it too. Most of those other games aren't on my computer anymore either, while this one remains and has since the days of UV.

This one is DIFFERENT folks. I promise you. It is a DIFFERENT game against a human. It just comes alive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogueusmc

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok
Most of those other games aren't on my computer anymore either, while this one remains and has since the days of UV.

You have had AE since UV?!?!?!

When you see the Southern Cross, For the first time
You understand now, Why you came this way

quote:

ORIGINAL: DivePac88

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogueusmc

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok
Most of those other games aren't on my computer anymore either, while this one remains and has since the days of UV.

You have had AE since UV?!?!?!

Martians can do things like that, and some other things that you don't want to know about.

There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and the enemy. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion.

Gen. William Thornson, U.S. Army

quote:

ORIGINAL: mullk

I just don't enjoy 2 player in any game.  I have tried it and it's just not my cup of tea.  I don't think 2 player is bad.  I think it should be in AE for the folks who enjoy it.  I'm just not one of those folks.  I some times play games en masse for a while but then do some thing else for a while.  I like AE and might play it for a 2-3 week binge of solid playing but then might not pick it up for several weeks.  A testamony from me to WITP and AE is I have never removed them from my PC sense launch, the only program I can say that about.  I would like to see the AI improved and I know this has GOT to be a topic of discussion at patch meetings.  As I stated earlier AE is a VERY complex program and requires VERY complex AI.  Matrix has been very supportive of the community and I don't expect this to change.  All I do is voice my issues on the boards to try and improve an outstanding product.  But if at the end of the day I'm told something can't be done I will trust it's true (for what ever reason) and accept it.  We all can enjoy games vs. the AI and PBEM, after all it takes all types for the very diverse community we have here.  I know everyone wants as good a game as I want.  Matrix has delivered but it can use some tweaking with out detracting from what an excellent game it is.

I have 2 sons with 3 computers all networked and I really don't enjoy any kind of multi player with them (and yes I have tried several games).  They enjoy the heck out of it and I don't discourage them but I just don't enjoy it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

After playing against the IJ AI since the game's release (I patched a couple weeks ago), I felt gradual creeping dread settling over my game. No, not due to forcible evictions of my digital troops from Manila, Singapore and the like-but a sense like other posters that something was amiss on the IJ AI side of things. So I took a look.

I feel like someone that has been suspicious of their wife's activities and opens up her email to do a little fact finding. Only to discover that she was having affairs. Lots of them. With a whole football team. During a game. Which was televised. It just gets worse and worse the more you look into it.

Here's what I found:

(currently in March 20, 1942. Was playing on very hard until recently, when I scaled back to 'historical' in an effort to stem some cheating that was likely occuring under the 'very hard' settings. How'd that work out for me?)

1. The Manchuko Garrison is at 6570/8000 required. The Soviets should have activated. Where are those Manchuko troops? One of the divisions landed on the Northern tip of New Caledonia a month or so ago. I don't know where the other 1000+ AV are. In recently captured Rangoon, the IJ have completely evacuated the city, busy chasing my soldiers into North Burma. Not one IJ unit is present, certainly not enough to garrison the city properly. I received partisan activity warnings while replaying the turn.

Looks like the IJ isn't bound by any sort of PP, garrison or operational HQ area boundaries. Is this WAD?

2. I've been getting large numbers of air attacks from Singapore since the IJ took it. Makes sense. Except, even though there's 185 a/c there, there's not ONE aviation support point in the city. Very few planes in repair or maintenance status.

Similarly, looks at other air units across the map revealed very few units with *any* planes in repair or maintenance status. All A6M2 Daitai, for example, were fully manned, planed and ready for action. Looks like the IJ isn't bound by aviation support, aircraft maintenance or repair requirements. Is this WAD?

3. A IJN TF just unloaded an SNLF unit in its entirety onto Tassafaronga last turn to capture it. OK. That happened IRL, no biggie. Except the TF was set to "Transport" rather than amphibious. And Tassafaronga is a 0(0) port size. And the unit was not at all disrupted by this miraculous landing. Looks like the IJ isn't bound by TF composition, load / unload requirements, port sizes or amphibious disruption during unload. I can't imagine that this can be explained away with the early war amphibious alone, can it? Is this WAD?

4. The IJ airforces have lost a huge number of airframes and, presumably, pilots to date. Yet, the available pilot pool for the IJN was 1104. IJA 1935. I've read board proclamations that the available airframes 'boost' that the AI gets was not the problem, but that pilot availability would be the bottleneck for the IJ AI. Looks like that won't be an issue for some time and the IJ gets 'free' pilots (nearly) ad libitum as well. Is this WAD?

5. The existing A6M2 available pool was 1742 with a build rate of 312. The Betty pool was 744 with a build rate of 200. Looks like other posters were dead on about this. Apparently, the AI isn't bound by production parameters for aircraft frames.

I've heard from some folks on other threads that this is *not* working as designed and will be 'scaled back' for patch II. Great news! To further my previous analogy, my wife in my example will no longer be carrying on her salacious behavior with the defensive secondary, although she's not making any promises about desisting with the offensive line.

6. After four months of bitter warfare, the Japanese home islands appear to have massive stores of supplies / oil / resources / fuel. As examples:

Osaka: 999,999 / 997,229 / 887,164 / 432,793
Tokyo: 980,044 / 998,049 / 848,183 / 389,644

Other cities have resources in excess of 999,000 as well.

Is this WAD?

Looks like the IJ won't really be needing Palembang, Balikpapan, Java or Tarakan for some time for fuel or oil. I can't imagine a need in the next 3-4 years for resources either. Why should it bother with capturing these areas?

So, to summarize:

The AI appears to be unbounded by: political points and HQ restrictions; garrison requirements; home island supply, oil, resources, production of / pools of airframes, pilots; TF load/unload limitations, assignments for load / unload; airframe maintenance and repair timeframes. These in addition to the reported and documented 'script' errors.

These oversights / omissions / errors / hackneyed 'bonuses' make the game virtually unplayable versus the AI now. All the clever AI gambits and scripts in the world won't change the overwhelming crush of otherworldly production issues that are going on within my game. I'm just waiting for the Imperial Twin Ion Engine (TIE) fighter production to start for the IJ. You know, 1000 a month-just to make it tough for the human player. That and transporting troops through the IJ Stargate. These ideas make just about as much sense as some of these cheats here, if they're WAD.

For those of you that are out there 'contentedly' playing against the AI: It's a sham marriage, folks. Check it out for yourselves. No clever manuevers will save you from the AI. It will go where it wants to, when it wants to and no rules of the game (or physics) will get in the way. If you consider this a challenge, trying to outwit nonsensical production and replacements, more power to you. I for one have better things to do with my time.

So, back to my wife analogy. I'll ask that she desist and correct the error of her ways (patch II). But with *so much* and such flagrant cheating going on, it seems unlikely that all will be corrected-leaving me heart broken.