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Task force movement (sorry to bring it up again)

 
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Task force movement (sorry to bring it up again) - 6/18/2002 9:27:52 PM   
Beckles

 

Posts: 128
Joined: 4/9/2002
From: Kansas City, MO, USA
Status: offline 		I'm just trying to understand how Bombardment TF's move. Looking at the turn sequence for the Night Resolution Phase, I can see how a 30 knot TF can move 12 hexes in the Naval Movement phase and perform a bombardment in the Naval Bombardment phase, but there is no other Movement Phase in the night turn after that.

Okay, then in the Day Resolution Phase again the Naval Movement phase is first, but there's only one, and again the 30 knot TF can move 12 hexes before the Air Phase.

That's what seems odd to me, why do they get to move a full 24-hours worth of movement before they are affected by the Day Air Phase?

Actually, this is surprising because this is the first time I've looked at this closely and I could have sworn that the day phase was broken into two, which would make a little more sense, but is that only the Air Phase that's broken into two?

I don't think the ability to run in and run out is unrealistic, and I like that part, it just seems to me now that the TF's have the ability to do it from too far away. Basically they have a full 24 hours worth of movement to play with, and it seems to me it should be something less than that. Certainly the 12 hours of night phase is fine, and I can even buy that they may have a few hours of daylight on each end of that, but 24 hours of movement is a bit much I think ...
Post #: 1
- 6/18/2002 9:40:02 PM   
elmo3

 

Posts: 5820
Joined: 1/22/2002
Status: offline 		Well if you don't like the way it works in 1.00 then quickly download 1.10 and you'll be very happy to see that bombardment TF's can now be plastered by a/c due to the bug that crept in. :)

Seriously, this has been debated to death already. There are two heavily entrenched camps on this issue. Those who are happy with TF's being able to run in and out at night and those who aren't. To my knowledge nobody has switched camps as a result of the debate. Matrix has said they are looking into possible compromises for a future patch. Not sure there is anything else to say that hasn't been said ten times already.

(in reply to Beckles)
Post #: 2
- 6/18/2002 9:56:21 PM   
Beckles

 

Posts: 128
Joined: 4/9/2002
From: Kansas City, MO, USA
Status: offline 		I don't think anyone is arguing you should be able to run in, bombard in the middle of the night, then run out. If the game did not provide for that, there would definitely be a problem I think (and there is now the way it is broken, which I am well aware of, almost having been caught by it in a PBEM game before I read about the bug ... luckily the other player's one airstrike was ineffective and the other couldn't find my TF).

My point is that it seems the real question in accuracy is how far these TF's are moving. They get a full 12 hours worth of movement, then bombard. Then, they get another full 12 hours worth of movemement before the Daytime Air Phase.

It seems to me movement needs to be broken down further. Personally, I would say night should probably be two movement phases, one at the beginning (6 hours) and one at the end (6 hours), with Bombardment and Air Phases and Surface Combat and etc. in between the two movement phases. For day turns it should be broken into three phases, a 3 hour movement phase, then a first day air combat phase, then 6 more hours of movement, then a second day air combat phase, then a final 3 hours of movement. Under this system Bombardment TF's would only get 18 hours of movement (still pretty generous I think really) where they do not have to worry about day time air attacks (the last 3 hours of day and first 6 hours of night moving to target, then the last 6 hours of night and the first 3 hours of day moving away from the target).

Am I missing something here Matrix/2by3? I really do think this ability of the Bombardment TF's is fine, I'm only questioning how many hexes they are getting to move with impunity from Day Air Attacks.

What is really surprising me though now that I've taken a much closer look at the turn phasing is that only the Air Operations appear to be broken down into 6 hour day turns, which was not my impression previously for whatever reason.

(in reply to Beckles)
Post #: 3
- 6/18/2002 10:32:33 PM   
Diealtekoenig

 

Posts: 56
Joined: 5/18/2002
From: Port Moresby, New Guinea
Status: offline 		"How many hexes they should get to move with immunity from air attacks"

That is the $64 question. The LBA/Airbase side has to:

Spot the ships and communicate their location and heading (or spot them early in the day, and shadow them). That time for communication takes an extremely variable period of time - probably the biggest variable in the whole sequence. If you have bombers on the base at Lunga set to Naval Attack with 20% on search those bombers will communicate to the airbase fairly promptly. If the search plane is a PBY flying out of Port Moresby and attached to MacArthur's command, not Ghormley's it will take longer to communicate with Lunga. Call the communication delay "X hours"

Get the crews in the planes, launch and form up a strike (bigger the strike longer to form up if you want to add that as a detail) (a pretty fixed time- say 45 minutes?)

Fly out to the suspected location. (a pretty fixed time based on the distance to the ships). If the ships are maybe 6 hexes out = 180 miles that is maybe an hour.

Search for the ships (a variable time but probably between a few minutes and an hour tops because they can't just search for hours out there). Call it 15 mnutes to make things come out even.

So the time for the strike will take about 2 hours + the time to communicate the ship location/heading to the airbase (possibly through a long chain of intermediaries.

So just to pick a number make X, the communication delay another hour and you get 3 hours between spotting the ships and attacking them.

And to search right up to 6 PM/sunset you will be flying back and landing in the dark. To search starting at 6 AM/sunrise you will have to launch in the predawn darkenss (and I gather search planes actually waited to dawn to launch at least from Henderson. Does anyone have data on that? Did Mavis and Emilies launch at 2 AM to be on station at first light or launch at dawn?).

To simplify things let's just consider catching the ships as they leave Lunga (not calculate what it takes to hit them at dusk as they approach)

_If_ the seach planes will search right at sunrise the ships still get about 9 hours (not 6) to run away. If the search planes take an hour to get on station (longer for long range seaplanes coming from very distant bases) you are getting up to 10 hours or longer, pretty close to the "12 hours in and 12 hours out"

What data do we really have?

Well, the ships usually could run in, bombard Henderson and get away but if they were slowed by damage they would usually get caught by the planes. And sometimes they would be caught even with no damage (they just mistimed things a little), so the distance the ships could move is just a tiny bit longer than typical bomber range - the ships haven't got a lot of leeway.

And very importantly remember all this is for SBDs at Henderson. Trying a "Tokyo Express" vs a base with longer range bombers (high experience skip bombing B25s and B26s) probably won't work.

So if the Airbase has longer range bombers those planes should have a very good chance of catching the ships.

If the ships usually get "immunity" from the A/C if a) the ships are not damaged enough to drop their speed significantly and b) the A/C are SBDs or similar (not longer range bombers) then the game is working about right IMO.

(in reply to Beckles)
Post #: 4
- 6/18/2002 10:39:19 PM   
Avenger


Posts: 140
Joined: 6/8/2002
Status: offline 		I am slightly confused by these comments. You are upset that bombardment task forces get so many moves? I should play you guys in a PBEM. You are not aware that an air combat group can exceed their movement by a considerable amount? I'm not talking about the normal retire movement. I'm talking about moving from point to point. I'm saying than if you begin scenario # 19 that you can (without changing the task force) get your air combat fleet to Gili Gili in two turns. Something like 35? hexes. Give it a try. They start with a base movement of 12m/6c but you can exceeed that by a large margin under the right conditions.

--Avenger

(in reply to Beckles)
Post #: 5
- 6/18/2002 10:53:33 PM   
Beckles

 

Posts: 128
Joined: 4/9/2002
From: Kansas City, MO, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Avenger
[B]I am slightly confused by these comments. You are upset that bombardment task forces get so many moves? I should play you guys in a PBEM. You are not aware that an air combat group can exceed their movement by a considerable amount? I'm not talking about the normal retire movement. I'm talking about moving from point to point. I'm saying than if you begin scenario # 19 that you can (without changing the task force) get your air combat fleet to Gili Gili in two turns. Something like 35? hexes. Give it a try. They start with a base movement of 12m/6c but you can exceeed that by a large margin under the right conditions.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Comparing ships to planes is apples and oranges. In the length of turns that UV uses ships are constrained by speed while aircraft are constrained by range. You can increase an aircraft's range for ferrying by not carrying any bombs/cargo and adding ferry fuel tanks, there's nothing you can do analgous to increase a ship's speed to any great extent.

A 30 knot ship can not move more than 24 hexes in 24 hours no matter what, while there are options for a plane to increase the range it can fly out to in 24 hours (e.g., not carrying cargo/bombs and using ferry tanks).

(in reply to Beckles)
Post #: 6
- 6/18/2002 10:57:52 PM   
Diealtekoenig

 

Posts: 56
Joined: 5/18/2002
From: Port Moresby, New Guinea
Status: offline 		Re Avenger's comments:

35 hexes is 1050 miles. 1050 miles in 2 days (48 hours) is about 21.857 miles/hour = 19.25Kts.

That is not unreasonable (but if you careen around the map at that speed for very many days you will be spending a lot of down time repairing system damage).

What people are concerned about is not how far a ship can move in 24 hours, but how far a ship can move between the last air phase of turn 13 and the first air phase of turn 14, as it were. That determines whether a ship can get in, bombard/unload supplies and run out again without ever spending an air phase withing strike range of the target base.

(in reply to Beckles)
Post #: 7
- 6/18/2002 11:03:05 PM   
Avenger


Posts: 140
Joined: 6/8/2002
Status: offline 		sigh. I'm not talking about planes. I'm saying that you can get the Lexington task force (The carrier group. The ships. Something like 10 ships? 15 ships?) to exceed its movement by a significant amount. The task force has a base movement of 12m/6c. I'm saying you can move this force 35 hexes in two turns.

I'm not talking about "react to enemy" where you always get extra moves. I'm saying that ALL combat ships can move during both the night and the day if you do it right.

--Avenger

(in reply to Beckles)
Post #: 8
- 6/18/2002 11:04:01 PM   
Beckles

 

Posts: 128
Joined: 4/9/2002
From: Kansas City, MO, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Diealtekoenig
[B]What people are concerned about is not how far a ship can move in 24 hours, but how far a ship can move between the last air phase of turn 13 and the first air phase of turn 14, as it were. That determines whether a ship can get in, bombard/unload supplies and run out again without ever spending an air phase withing strike range of the target base. [/B][/QUOTE]

This is pretty much correct, though there is a night air phase where the ships are exposed, attacks against ships at night by aircraft are pretty much darn near impossible.

My comment is that it does not seem reasonable for a TF to get a full 24 hours worth of movement between daytime air phases.

(in reply to Beckles)
Post #: 9
- 6/18/2002 11:06:09 PM   
Beckles

 

Posts: 128
Joined: 4/9/2002
From: Kansas City, MO, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Avenger
[B]sigh. I'm not talking about planes. I'm saying that you can get the Lexington task force (The carrier group. The ships. Something like 10 ships? 15 ships?) to exceed its movement by a significant amount. The task force has a base movement of 12m/6c. I'm saying you can move this force 35 hexes in two turns.
[/B][/QUOTE]

In two turns a ship with 12m/6c should be able to move 48 hexes at maximum speed. The 12m/6c is per phase, not per day, and there are two phases per day.

(in reply to Beckles)
Post #: 10
- 6/18/2002 11:07:06 PM   
Avenger


Posts: 140
Joined: 6/8/2002
Status: offline 		Well, the original message was about the Tokyo express getting 24 moves. I thought that was the problem, and I was just saying that even a carrier task force can use all its moves, even just moving base to base.


Just how are you guys getting a carrier fleet to move more than 12 hexes in a turn? I had to use a trick.

--Avenger

(in reply to Beckles)
Post #: 11
- 6/18/2002 11:10:24 PM   
Beckles

 

Posts: 128
Joined: 4/9/2002
From: Kansas City, MO, USA
Status: offline 		The problem is not a Bombardment TF moving 24 hexes in 24 hours (which is what a 30 knot TF can do), the problem is that it gets 24 hours worth of movement between daytime air phases.

I saw air combat fleet and read that as aircraft instead of carrier TF like I should have, sorry for my mistake there. :)

(in reply to Beckles)
Post #: 12
- 6/18/2002 11:13:08 PM   
Admiral DadMan


Posts: 3627
Joined: 2/22/2002
From: A Lion uses all its might to catch a Rabbit
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Diealtekoenig
[B]"How many hexes they should get to move with immunity from air attacks"

That is the $64 question. The LBA/Airbase side has to:

Spot the ships and communicate their location and heading (or spot them early in the day, and shadow them). That time for communication takes an extremely variable period of time - probably the biggest variable in the whole sequence. If you have bombers on the base at Lunga set to Naval Attack with 20% on search those bombers will communicate to the airbase fairly promptly. If the search plane is a PBY flying out of Port Moresby and attached to MacArthur's command, not Ghormley's it will take longer to communicate with Lunga. Call the communication delay "X hours"

Get the crews in the planes, launch and form up a strike (bigger the strike longer to form up if you want to add that as a detail) (a pretty fixed time- say 45 minutes?)

Fly out to the suspected location. (a pretty fixed time based on the distance to the ships). If the ships are maybe 6 hexes out = 180 miles that is maybe an hour.

Search for the ships (a variable time but probably between a few minutes and an hour tops because they can't just search for hours out there). Call it 15 mnutes to make things come out even.

So the time for the strike will take about 2 hours + the time to communicate the ship location/heading to the airbase (possibly through a long chain of intermediaries.

So just to pick a number make X, the communication delay another hour and you get 3 hours between spotting the ships and attacking them.

And to search right up to 6 PM/sunset you will be flying back and landing in the dark. To search starting at 6 AM/sunrise you will have to launch in the predawn darkenss (and I gather search planes actually waited to dawn to launch at least from Henderson. Does anyone have data on that? Did Mavis and Emilies launch at 2 AM to be on station at first light or launch at dawn?).

To simplify things let's just consider catching the ships as they leave Lunga (not calculate what it takes to hit them at dusk as they approach)

_If_ the seach planes will search right at sunrise the ships still get about 9 hours (not 6) to run away. If the search planes take an hour to get on station (longer for long range seaplanes coming from very distant bases) you are getting up to 10 hours or longer, pretty close to the "12 hours in and 12 hours out"

What data do we really have?

Well, the ships usually could run in, bombard Henderson and get away but if they were slowed by damage they would usually get caught by the planes. And sometimes they would be caught even with no damage (they just mistimed things a little), so the distance the ships could move is just a tiny bit longer than typical bomber range - the ships haven't got a lot of leeway.

And very importantly remember all this is for SBDs at Henderson. Trying a "Tokyo Express" vs a base with longer range bombers (high experience skip bombing B25s and B26s) probably won't work.

So if the Airbase has longer range bombers those planes should have a very good chance of catching the ships.

If the ships usually get "immunity" from the A/C if a) the ships are not damaged enough to drop their speed significantly and b) the A/C are SBDs or similar (not longer range bombers) then the game is working about right IMO. [/B][/QUOTE]
I agree with all that. That's about how I was figuring it. The only way that the "Tokyo Express" would get slowed down would be to get caught by an Allied TF. That could happen if the US either got word that a group was forming up to make a run, or if the US just happened to have a TF patrolling in the area when the warnings came.

My strategy to combat these night runs has been to park a SurCom TF within about 5 hexes travel from Lunga (or wherever I expect a run) and pray I could get a reaction move. If I wasn't getting the kind of reaction move I wanted (like what would happpen to me at Port Moresby), I'd park a TF at the base itself.

Either of those strategies worked out as well as I could expect if I were a commander.

I think the thing we all tend to forget is that this was fought in 1942, not 2002, and communications were NOT what they are today. Even if you go back to our last big conflict, the Gulf War in 90-91, things still took TIME - Search, Locate, Report, Disseminate, React, Plan, Respond/Move, Search, Locate, ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK!

_____________________________

Scenario 127: "Scraps of Paper"
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(O.o)
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CVB Langley:

(in reply to Beckles)
Post #: 13
- 6/18/2002 11:16:33 PM   
Avenger


Posts: 140
Joined: 6/8/2002
Status: offline 		Sorry too. I am wondering how you guys are moving your air combat fleets more than 12 hexes a turn. I have to use a trick to get them to exceed their movement. When moving base to base they generally will not travel more than the 12 hexes that they say they will travel in the entire turn.

--Avenger

(in reply to Beckles)
Post #: 14
- 6/18/2002 11:17:15 PM   
Diealtekoenig

 

Posts: 56
Joined: 5/18/2002
From: Port Moresby, New Guinea
Status: offline 		The "12/6" isn't the amount the fleet can move in 24 hours. That is the amount the fleet can move in 1 phase.

(in reply to Beckles)
Post #: 15
- 6/18/2002 11:58:44 PM   
Avenger


Posts: 140
Joined: 6/8/2002
Status: offline 		I understand that. Perhaps I'm missing something really basic. I just can't get my carrier fleets to move at maximum speed for a full 24 hours unless they are reacting to an enemy. How do you do that?

--Avenger

(in reply to Beckles)
Post #: 16
- 6/19/2002 12:01:50 AM   
Beckles

 

Posts: 128
Joined: 4/9/2002
From: Kansas City, MO, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Avenger
[B]Sorry too. I am wondering how you guys are moving your air combat fleets more than 12 hexes a turn. I have to use a trick to get them to exceed their movement. When moving base to base they generally will not travel more than the 12 hexes that they say they will travel in the entire turn.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Only under specific conditions do TF's move at maximum speed instead of cruise speed. For instance, according to the chart on page 43 of the manual the only time an Air Combat TF will ever move at maximum speed is when the have "Retirement Allowed" set and are sprinting away from a designated hex ... which doesn't necessarilly agree with the behaviour you described.

(in reply to Beckles)
Post #: 17
- 6/19/2002 12:08:55 AM   
Beckles

 

Posts: 128
Joined: 4/9/2002
From: Kansas City, MO, USA
Status: offline 		I can buy that a Bombardment TF could have 12 hours and 12 hours out ... in some cases. However, I can't buy that they'll always get that kind of time, especially when they are bombarding an airbase that has planes capable of striking back.

It just seems that the air power at a base should at least have a chance to find and attack the ships before they get their 12 hours of movement on the way out (after already getting 12 hours of movement on the way in).

Let me just add, that given the choice between the implementations in 1.0 and 1.1, I'll take 1.0 anytime, and it's really only the errors in 1.1 and some folks saying it's more realistic that started me thinking about it in any level of detail.

(in reply to Beckles)
Post #: 18
- 6/19/2002 12:43:47 AM   
Avenger


Posts: 140
Joined: 6/8/2002
Status: offline
quote:

Only under specific conditions do TF's move at maximum speed instead of cruise speed. For instance, according to the chart on page 43 of the manual the only time an Air Combat TF will ever move at maximum speed is when the have "Retirement Allowed" set and are sprinting away from a designated hex ... which doesn't necessarilly agree with the behaviour you described.


There lies the trick I came up with. The Air Combat Fleet has a speed of 32 in the example I gave. I picked a ship with a speed of 32, the DMS Zane, and put her into a Surface combat fleet. A surface combat fleet will go full speed for 24 hours if their destination is within 25 hexes. An Air Combat Fleet, with the same speed, will follow a surface combat fleet precisely, even if they have to go maximum speed for 24 hours. This is very handy in a variety of situations. Especially moving that carrier fleet into position.

--Avenger

(in reply to Beckles)
Post #: 19
- 6/19/2002 12:54:15 AM   
Beckles

 

Posts: 128
Joined: 4/9/2002
From: Kansas City, MO, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Avenger
[B]There lies the trick I came up with. The Air Combat Fleet has a speed of 32 in the example I gave. I picked a ship with a speed of 32, the DMS Zane, and put her into a Surface combat fleet. A surface combat fleet will go full speed for 24 hours if their destination is within 25 hexes. An Air Combat Fleet, with the same speed, will follow a surface combat fleet precisely, even if they have to go maximum speed for 24 hours. This is very handy in a variety of situations. Especially moving that carrier fleet into position.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Looks like you're answering your own question ... or was that a test for the rest of us. :)

(in reply to Beckles)
Post #: 20
- 6/19/2002 1:03:25 AM   
Avenger


Posts: 140
Joined: 6/8/2002
Status: offline
quote:

Looks like you're answering your own question ... or was that a test for the rest of us.

The first post was maybe a test, but nobody was paying attention. The following posts expressed my confusion. I wondered if everyone knew that the Japanese Carrier fleet could reach Shortland on the first turn.

--Avenger

(in reply to Beckles)
Post #: 21
- 6/19/2002 5:31:12 AM   
Didz


Posts: 728
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: UK
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Diealtekoenig
[B]The "12/6" isn't the amount the fleet can move in 24 hours. That is the amount the fleet can move in 1 phase. [/B][/QUOTE]

If I recall correctly a knot is the equivalent of about 1.15 mph so a 30 Knot BB can travel about 34.5 miles in 1 hour at flank speed. Thats 828 miles per day or 27.6 hexes.

However, no naval commander in his right mind would put his ship through that sort of strain apart from the damage and danger in enclosed waters the amount of fuel used would be excessive. So I would think that for at least half the journey the ship would be moving a cruising speed then it would need to slow and turn for the bombardment and then pick up speed again to withdraw. All things considered I would be surprised if it would cover more than 650 miles in 24 hours or 21 hexes.

Thats 11 hexes in and 10 hexes out which seems to be about what these Bombardment TF's are managing. The real issue is that at least half of this movement would be taking place in daylight.

So on the run in the BB would be in daylight until it was about 6 hexes from the target (180 miles) and on the way out it would be no more than 5 hexes from target at sunrise (150 miles)

The only real issue then is whether the LBA could get a strike in within the next 6 hours.

_____________________________

Didz
Fortis balore et armis

(in reply to Beckles)
Post #: 22
- 6/19/2002 5:45:33 AM   
Beckles

 

Posts: 128
Joined: 4/9/2002
From: Kansas City, MO, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Didz
[B]If I recall correctly a knot is the equivalent of about 1.15 mph so a 30 Knot BB can travel about 34.5 miles in 1 hour at flank speed. Thats 828 miles per day or 27.6 hexes.[/B][/QUOTE]

1 knot = 1 nautical mile, and I always assumed that the hexes were 30 nautical miles (not statute miles) across, especially since by dividing speed by 2.5 to get movement per 12 hours indicates exactly that.

(in reply to Beckles)
Post #: 23
- 6/19/2002 3:42:07 PM   
Didz


Posts: 728
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: UK
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Beckles
[B]

1 knot = 1 nautical mile, and I always assumed that the hexes were 30 nautical miles (not statute miles) across, especially since by dividing speed by 2.5 to get movement per 12 hours indicates exactly that. [/B][/QUOTE]

Hmm! I was just accepting that the manual was accurate when it says hex scale is 30 miles per hex (section 6 pge 17). Its usually pretty clear on other things.

_____________________________

Didz
Fortis balore et armis

(in reply to Beckles)
Post #: 24
- 6/19/2002 6:20:56 PM   
Spooky


Posts: 816
Joined: 4/1/2002
From: Froggy Land
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Didz
[B]

Hmm! I was just accepting that the manual was accurate when it says hex scale is 30 miles per hex (section 6 pge 17). Its usually pretty clear on other things. [/B][/QUOTE]

Naval game = nautical miles ? Beckles is probalby right ...

Otherwise, I propose we now use the metric system :D and so no more confusion between nautical miles and statute miles !

Spooky

(in reply to Beckles)
Post #: 25
- 6/19/2002 6:32:30 PM   
Didz


Posts: 728
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: UK
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Admiral DadMan
[B]
The only way that the "Tokyo Express" would get slowed down would be to get caught by an Allied TF. That could happen if the US either got word that a group was forming up to make a run, or if the US just happened to have a TF patrolling in the area when the warnings came.[/B][/QUOTE]

The Tokyo Express would only have got caught by an air attack if like the BB Hiei it found itself disabled and within 60 or so miles of Guadacanal at dawn.

As I have said repeatedly the only reason the Toyko Express and the associated bombardments of Henderson Field were possible without risk of air interdiction was that at the time (Aug42>Nov42)there were less than 40 planes operational on Guadacanal of which only 11 were Dive Bombers and all these planes were fully occupied providing CAP and ground support for the marines on the island. The Bomber strip at Henderson was not started until Dec42 well after the Battle of Guadacanal was over.

So, it wasn't some magic use of nightime movement that prevented the IJN ships being bombed as they approached down the slot or back out again it was simply that there was nobody available to bomb them.

In fact the amazing thing is that the US ships managed to slip into the slot under cover of darkness and intercept some of these missions without getting bombed to oblivion by the LBA from Rabaul which was flying daily bombing missions over the entire area.

_____________________________

Didz
Fortis balore et armis

(in reply to Beckles)
Post #: 26
- 6/19/2002 9:08:53 PM   
Admiral DadMan


Posts: 3627
Joined: 2/22/2002
From: A Lion uses all its might to catch a Rabbit
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Didz
[B]

The Tokyo Express would only have got caught by an air attack if like the BB Hiei it found itself disabled and within 60 or so miles of Guadacanal at dawn.

As I have said repeatedly the only reason the Toyko Express and the associated bombardments of Henderson Field were possible without risk of air interdiction was that at the time (Aug42>Nov42)there were less than 40 planes operational on Guadacanal of which only 11 were Dive Bombers and all these planes were fully occupied providing CAP and ground support for the marines on the island. The Bomber strip at Henderson was not started until Dec42 well after the Battle of Guadacanal was over.

So, it wasn't some magic use of nightime movement that prevented the IJN ships being bombed as they approached down the slot or back out again it was simply that there was nobody available to bomb them.

In fact the amazing thing is that the US ships managed to slip into the slot under cover of darkness and intercept some of these missions without getting bombed to oblivion by the LBA from Rabaul which was flying daily bombing missions over the entire area. [/B][/QUOTE]So you're saying, "what if" you manage to improve the airstrip earlier so that you can base B-25's on it? I think it's reasonable that the B-25 have a shot at hitting ships that got downrange in a hurry, but you're still talking about them being probably beyond extended range for an SBD and maybe even a TBF to strike.

The main problem I still see is that the IJN force would still have to be located before a strike went out, and PBY's don't fly that fast...

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Scenario 127: "Scraps of Paper"
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CVB Langley:

(in reply to Beckles)
Post #: 27
- 6/19/2002 9:09:00 PM   
Beckles

 

Posts: 128
Joined: 4/9/2002
From: Kansas City, MO, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Didz
[B]Hmm! I was just accepting that the manual was accurate when it says hex scale is 30 miles per hex (section 6 pge 17). Its usually pretty clear on other things. [/B][/QUOTE]

The manual is accurate, a nautical mile is still a "mile" ... it's just not clear enough on this point, but considering the calculation of dividing by 2.5 to determine speed would correspond exactly to nautical miles (and be off by the fact of 1.2 for statute miles), I'm pretty sure that is the case.

(in reply to Beckles)
Post #: 28
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