Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

well, shouldn't the Allies be bombing the enemy Aircraft plants ?

most of my games, I can bleed the 109s unit dry be losses, and most of the 190 units dry by killing off there production

people who want to game the system to beat the AI, and then brag about it, just cause the system to be changed, I would like to see either of these two guys who can get 152 C's into production in Jan of 44, go against somebody like Swift in a PBEM game, and see what the real cost this idea is

quote:

ORIGINAL: TechSgt

Harley & Lanconic;

What I'm having a hard time with is, what were the Allies doing during this time?
Axis loses not being replaced should elevate the AS. Therfore, the Allies should push even harder, advancing the "Big Week". That means bombing AFAC, EFAC, & CFAC's!

While thinking of what to reply, I get a nagging feeling...

What you are doing is cutting out all the "historic" beauracracy that hindered the Axis war effort, hmmm...

1) The Allies can lose by not having enough points, to withstand the D-Day mandatory bombing phase. (There is an exploit around this)
2) The Allies can lose by not having the points at the end of 700 turns. (The exploit here is OLD AGE!)

I have to think some more about this...

What I'm having a hard time with is, what were the Allies doing during this time?

TS

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lanconic

quote:

ORIGINAL: harley

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lanconic

No it can easily be done within the established game rules
You just need to JUNK all the wasted resources devoted to the ME109 series.
I converted ALL production to the FW190 series and used 40 engines for the HE219 series.
The TA152c uses the same engine as the HE219-5
SO it simplifies everything.

There are about 100AC prod points per day. You currently need 100 points to advance by one month. If you convert all prod to the 2 new types, allowing for time to change over it would only take about 30 - 35 days to complete the research. Remember the size one sites are ready in 10 days, but there's 2 or 3 size 6 sites that take 2 months to retool, so that's 12 or more points of prod that can't be put into research.

After the patch, however...

The amount of research required to save a month is directly tied to how long before that type is due. Presently something that is due in Jan 1945 requires 1600 units to research - about 16 days prod. In the version we have in test at the moment, it requires around 6500 to produce - 65 days prod. For the defender to forgo all replacements for over 2 months, it would be a difficult proposition, especially in a PBEM game. You'd really have to pick your defensive lines carefully, and hope he didn't put a hole in your AFACs for too long. To get something from May 45 into prod, you would need over 11,000 units of research.

To get something due in the next month you only need 100 units, that's always the minimum.

this isn't final, either. It feels right, but we won't know without some real playtesting.

So what you are doing is preventing good play by the Axis.
You punish the player who is good. But you dont punish HS for example
for bleeding the 109's and bombing the plants he knows produce the fw190.

So the Axis get penalized for using hindsight, but oddly NOT the allies.
That is so very fair. That isnt a simulation any longer, its a game.

The correct way to approch this is the way I suggested. If in reality the allies had needed more resources, they WOULD HAVE USED MORE.

That is the realistic approach.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lanconic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

well, shouldn't the Allies be bombing the enemy Aircraft plants ?

most of my games, I can bleed the 109s unit dry be losses, and most of the 190 units dry by killing off there production

people who want to game the system to beat the AI, and then brag about it, just cause the system to be changed, I would like to see either of these two guys who can get 152 C's into production in Jan of 44, go against somebody like Swift in a PBEM game, and see what the real cost this idea is

So you admit using hindsight as the Allies but you dont like to see the German do it =)

as I posted above, how is that Hindsight, the same info I am using is the same info the Allies used, they knew that DB plants made DB engines, the same with BMW, it is the Ardo and Henschels that make a mess of things

I do not fear the Allied Bombers. I have played against a grounded Luftwaffe
just to see what I could do. The results are not pretty.

You cant bleed squadrons that are not committed.

and where are you going to put them ? in Poland ? and if you don't commit them, then there is no danger in knocking out all of your fancy Aircraft production

If you guys had not scrambled the data base, I would put the B-29 into the game
and see how it would do. I have done that before. I am sure you recall.

I have nothing usefull to say aboyt any argument that is onesided.
If one side uses hindsight, then the other should be able to as well.

also, I see you have not thought it all the way though, there is another strategy that kills your production in it's tracks

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lanconic

quote:

ORIGINAL: harley

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lanconic

No it can easily be done within the established game rules
You just need to JUNK all the wasted resources devoted to the ME109 series.
I converted ALL production to the FW190 series and used 40 engines for the HE219 series.
The TA152c uses the same engine as the HE219-5
SO it simplifies everything.

There are about 100AC prod points per day. You currently need 100 points to advance by one month. If you convert all prod to the 2 new types, allowing for time to change over it would only take about 30 - 35 days to complete the research. Remember the size one sites are ready in 10 days, but there's 2 or 3 size 6 sites that take 2 months to retool, so that's 12 or more points of prod that can't be put into research.

After the patch, however...

The amount of research required to save a month is directly tied to how long before that type is due. Presently something that is due in Jan 1945 requires 1600 units to research - about 16 days prod. In the version we have in test at the moment, it requires around 6500 to produce - 65 days prod. For the defender to forgo all replacements for over 2 months, it would be a difficult proposition, especially in a PBEM game. You'd really have to pick your defensive lines carefully, and hope he didn't put a hole in your AFACs for too long. To get something from May 45 into prod, you would need over 11,000 units of research.

To get something due in the next month you only need 100 units, that's always the minimum.

this isn't final, either. It feels right, but we won't know without some real playtesting.

So what you are doing is preventing good play by the Axis.
You punish the player who is good. But you dont punish HS for example
for bleeding the 109's and bombing the plants he knows produce the fw190.

So the Axis get penalized for using hindsight, but oddly NOT the allies.
That is so very fair. That isnt a simulation any longer, its a game.

The correct way to approch this is the way I suggested. If in reality the allies had needed more resources, they WOULD HAVE USED MORE.

That is the realistic approach.

your silly
you call being able to game the system, good play, when you shouldn't be able to produce a aircraft, because the engine is not even built yet ? you need to have the engines, before you can start on the frame design

and what, you can't figure out that DB plants make DB engines, or that BMW plants make BMW engines ? FW plants make FW aircraft, and Me Plants make Me Aircraft ?, not much hindsight needed here, or "inside" info (plus I was talking about my play in BTR)

the testers didn't want me to make the changes I wanted to add to the reseach system, so I didn't, but since players want to game the system, the way I wanted to avoid, we will make changes to make the system work the way it was suppost to

you want to break the whole production system to build a plane that never flew, and then call it good play, it don't work that way

a good human player will make you pay, if you try that in PBEM and depending on what Strat the AI is using, it could also hurt you, but that is a random chance when the game starts

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge
the testers didn't want me to make the changes I wanted to add to the reseach system, so I didn't, but since players want to game the system, the way I wanted to avoid, we will make changes to make the system work the way it was suppost to

you want to break the whole production system to build a plane that never flew, and then call it good play, it don't work that way

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitridge

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge
the testers didn't want me to make the changes I wanted to add to the reseach system, so I didn't, but since players want to game the system, the way I wanted to avoid, we will make changes to make the system work the way it was suppost to

you want to break the whole production system to build a plane that never flew, and then call it good play, it don't work that way

Hey Sarge,

Does deviating from the historical Luftwaffe production with the new research penalties make research a much less favourable strategy to just leaving the AI in charge of production and letting it upgrade everything mostly historically? Is it possible to effectively play ahistorically with these production and research changes?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitridge

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge
the testers didn't want me to make the changes I wanted to add to the reseach system, so I didn't, but since players want to game the system, the way I wanted to avoid, we will make changes to make the system work the way it was suppost to

you want to break the whole production system to build a plane that never flew, and then call it good play, it don't work that way

Hey Sarge,

Does deviating from the historical Luftwaffe production with the new research penalties make research a much less favourable strategy to just leaving the AI in charge of production and letting it upgrade everything mostly historically? Is it possible to effectively play ahistorically with these production and research changes?

oh, you should be able to make changes, go after what you want, with no major issues, just, don't expect to get late war, after war planes in Jan 44

and as Harley said, the closer you are to having the plane come online, the easier it is, to "push" it some, to get it a little earlier

like the 262, you can push to try and get it earlier, but don't expect to be able to bring it in, in 43

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

convert everything you got to the A5 then, good luck, that plane is a death trap

how do the Allies have 100% hindsight ?

and yes, that is what I have been trying to say, you should need to reseach the engines to get to the better engines, with out the right engine, all the fancy Frames are worthless

almost all of the late war German planes, didn't fly with the engine they were designed for, they had to go with what they had

you would be better off, learning what the G6 can do, and what it can't do, and to use it were it can do well, then to try and cut it out of production and combat

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lanconic

Historicly.....I used exactly the approach Adolf Galland recomended. Convert all resources
to the production of the best model and optimize.

Nothing could be more historical than that.

"Grown ups are what's left when skool is finished."
"History started badly and hav been geting steadily worse."
- Nigel Molesworth.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lanconic

Historicly.....I used exactly the approach Adolf Galland recomended. Convert all resources
to the production of the best model and optimize.

Nothing could be more historical than that.

Except what actually happened.

Maybe what's borking the production model is the fact there's no room for Nazi hierarchy in-fighting and decisions like putting bombs on the 262.

Bigger boys stole my sig

(in reply to sprior)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

nor was it possible.

This sounds like USAAF all over again. Convert to all FW190, no more 109's....then convert 190's to all Jets.

Yep...very realistic.

Bigger boys stole my sig

(in reply to Nikademus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: harley

Lanconic,

You forget the political implications of what you say.

The allies we deal with were on the major part democratic countries. There was little scope to expand the personnel losses beyond what they were without incurring the wrath of a tired populace.

The axis were essentially dictatorships. Dissent was crushed with jackboots. Throwing more troops into the fire was an easy response. Look at the volksturm and hitler youth units.


<edit> naughty commas

quote:

ORIGINAL: Golden Bear

Maybe it is time to put in a "sudden death" for the Axis just as there is one for the Allies. For the same reason... to make certain that the Axis player doesn't sit still while waiting for something new and advantageous to happen for them. There is no way at all that any part of the German State, including people, could sit still while their units made no attempt to fight back at the bombings. OK, that is my opinion but based on more than a little study of the Nazi state.

Also, it is clear that having so many Tas so early in the "war" is nerfing the game. So, if that is desirable to a player, there is a version of the game that allows that now. Can't blame the controllers of the code for trying to close such an obvious loophole.

For Allied player having hindsight on where the big factories were, I knew that already from reading The Mighty Eighth long before the game came out. The Allies knew what was producing what and where for a long while into the war, until dispersal.

Don't disagree that the Allies should ramp up response if the LW player is winning but also think that the LW player should suffer more pressures to respond.

Anyway it is the job of the "Team" to work on play balance and block obvious play advantages vs. their perception of the battle.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lanconic

Well yes I am. There is no practical way a Luftwaffe run by Goering would react
usefully to events. Politics is war.