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RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 9:52:49 PM   
Grollub


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RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 9:53:32 PM   
Mynok


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Wasn't London the result of Hitler's maniacal rage after the Brits bombed Berlin?


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RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 9:55:36 PM   
Grollub


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RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 9:56:51 PM   
Grollub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

For me....i define air superiority and interdiction as operational level missions, designed to enhance and faciliatate an overall campaign. Tactical operations involve ground support missions. The former were generally acheived using the medium bombers primarily (+ DB's), whilest the reverse was true for the ground support component. Strategic bombing targets a nation's heart...it's civilian and industry component.


Seconded.

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RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 10:01:55 PM   
Mynok


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grollub

Accidental page shift




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RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 10:03:21 PM   
Terminus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Wasn't London the result of Hitler's maniacal rage after the Brits bombed Berlin?



That's the traditional view, which I don't know enough to contradict. However, the bombing of Warsaw was explicitly ordered to break the morale of the defending Polish forces, the very definition of terror bombing.

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RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 10:04:08 PM   
USSAmerica


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


quote:

ORIGINAL: Grollub

Accidental page shift





Seems to be the Swedish version of "New page. "

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RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 10:05:24 PM   
Mynok


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Ah...I will add that into my translator.....

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RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 10:11:53 PM   
Grollub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


quote:

ORIGINAL: Grollub

Accidental page shift





Seems to be the Swedish version of "New page. "

Correct interpretation

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RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 10:16:46 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Wasn't London the result of Hitler's maniacal rage after the Brits bombed Berlin?


Well, yes. So? It was Hitler's maniacal rage that prompted him to demand strategic bombing of English populated areas.

IMO, there's some overlap between 'terror bombing' and 'strategic bombing' now, isn't there? "Breaking the people's will" as a strategic bombing goal could be a euphamism for 'burning 'em out'. At least it was in Dresden, Hamburg and Tokyo. Just because the Jerries weren't as efficient firestarters as the Allies doesn't mean they apriori rejected the concept of strategic bombing of populated areas. Their kit just wasn't as useful.

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RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 10:38:17 PM   
Terminus


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RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 10:43:26 PM   
Mynok


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Wasn't London the result of Hitler's maniacal rage after the Brits bombed Berlin?


Well, yes. So? It was Hitler's maniacal rage that prompted him to demand strategic bombing of English populated areas.



Which the Luftwaffe did NOT want to do. Thus my point that they certainly acted like they didn't think it was useful.


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RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 10:57:26 PM   
thegreatwent


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RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 10:59:55 PM   
anarchyintheuk

 

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Status: offline 		One of the problems in trying to decipher the LW's role and capability is that there are at least 3 heads (Hitler, Goering, Udet/Milch/etc.) that don't necessarily agree on anything one thing and, at different times, are in actual operating control or can at least influence decisions. Lacking a shared vision you end up with an air force like the LW, excellent in some areas with unneeded or duplicative designs and unsure of what to concentrate production on until too late. Considering that the people in charge of the LW never really agreed on its role, its hard for us to look back 60 years and decide it for them. Just my $.02.

Edited for failing to come to a conclusion.

< Message edited by anarchyintheuk -- 10/27/2009 11:03:58 PM >

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RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/27/2009 11:04:09 PM   
Onime No Kyo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Wasn't London the result of Hitler's maniacal rage after the Brits bombed Berlin?


Well, yes. So? It was Hitler's maniacal rage that prompted him to demand strategic bombing of English populated areas.



Which the Luftwaffe did NOT want to do. Thus my point that they certainly acted like they didn't think it was useful.



I respectfully disagree. Granted, it could be argued that the Eastern Front was a "different war", I would like to point out that the Germans used the bombing of populated areas widely, especially during the opening stages of Barbarossa. The predicted, quite accurately, that it would produce a mass panic effect (which it did to a degree) and interfere with military logistics (which it did to an even greater degree).

The difference between London and, say Minsk, is that the effects were largely dependent on other factors. London was bombed per se, and the effects were largely contained by a concerted, organized network. Minsk was bombed in conjunction with a land advance, disintegrating front, panic stricken command structure and underdeveloped infrastructure, which greatly magnified the effect.

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RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/28/2009 12:23:10 AM   
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RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/28/2009 12:43:42 AM   
Wolfpack_MatrixForum

 

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RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/28/2009 1:21:27 AM   
Grollub


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RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/28/2009 1:33:37 AM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Wasn't London the result of Hitler's maniacal rage after the Brits bombed Berlin?


Well, yes. So? It was Hitler's maniacal rage that prompted him to demand strategic bombing of English populated areas.



Which the Luftwaffe did NOT want to do. Thus my point that they certainly acted like they didn't think it was useful.


Umm...not. WARNING-CIRCULAR LOGIC FOLLOWS: The Luftwaffe DID it, therefore they acted as though they were interested in doing it-because they did. Their inner monologue and philosophical discussions beforehand were, at that point, meaningless.


< Message edited by Chickenboy -- 10/28/2009 1:36:12 AM >

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RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/28/2009 1:41:45 AM   
Onime No Kyo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolfpack

Win 7 ultimate installed Tithe!


Nice knowing ya.

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Post #: 5960
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/28/2009 1:42:37 AM   
Onime No Kyo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Wasn't London the result of Hitler's maniacal rage after the Brits bombed Berlin?


Well, yes. So? It was Hitler's maniacal rage that prompted him to demand strategic bombing of English populated areas.



Which the Luftwaffe did NOT want to do. Thus my point that they certainly acted like they didn't think it was useful.


Umm...not. WARNING-CIRCULAR LOGIC FOLLOWS: The Luftwaffe DID it, therefore they acted as though they were interested in doing it-because they did. Their inner monologue and philosophical discussions beforehand were, at that point, meaningless.




I dont get it.

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RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/28/2009 1:48:29 AM   
Chickenboy


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Status: offline 		I'm using the word 'acted' to mean what they did (i.e., actions), rather than the other use of the word meaning 'pretended'. In other words: they did what they did. Period. If they had not acted out their actions, they wouldn't 'a done it.

Alright, I'm getting obtuse. About time for a good evening tithe methinks.

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RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/28/2009 2:01:32 AM   
Onime No Kyo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

I'm using the word 'acted' to mean what they did (i.e., actions), rather than the other use of the word meaning 'pretended'. In other words: they did what they did. Period. If they had not acted out their actions, they wouldn't 'a done it.

Alright, I'm getting obtuse. About time for a good evening tithe methinks.


Sorry, CB, that was a failed attempt at sarcasm.

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RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/28/2009 3:18:52 AM   
Mynok


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Umm...not. WARNING-CIRCULAR LOGIC FOLLOWS: The Luftwaffe DID it, therefore they acted as though they were interested in doing it-because they did. Their inner monologue and philosophical discussions beforehand were, at that point, meaningless.



But not meaningless in light of the origination of this discussion: whether the Luftwaffe had a pre-war plan for strategic bombing. The blitz was a Hitler decision, not a Luftwaffe one. That was my point.

Now the Eastern front incidents Onime brought up seem to indicate it being more of what I would operational actions. They were done in conjunction with ground forces. While not tactical, neither were they strategic in the sense of being direct attacks on industry and economy without the use of ground forces. I say the same for the razing of Stalingrad by the Luftwaffe. They were certainly attacks on civilians, but not necessarily for the sole purpose of demoralization. They were primarily operational in scope, rather than strategic.

I just don't see a pattern of sustained, strategic bombing of industry, civilian and economic centers divorced from operational action by ground forces other than the blitz...which was directly ordered by Hitler and did not originate with the Luftwaffe command.


< Message edited by Mynok -- 10/28/2009 3:19:21 AM >

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RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/28/2009 4:28:22 AM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

That gives us a tactical/operational Luftwaffe, but not a strategic one. I don't buy the "they didn't think strategic bombing had merit" line, and would like to know the reasoning behind that thought.


I should be more correct in saying that the Luftwaffe in the 30's rejected the Douhet interpretation of strategic bombing as not having merit. The Luftwaffe did have a doctrine regarding strategic air warfare, however In Luftwaffe Regulation 16 (The Conduct of the Aerial War), the Luftwaffe rejected the theory of Douhet which made the primary goal of strategic bombing to bomb the enemy cities, inducing terror into the civilian population with expectation that they would arise in and force an early end to the conflict. Such acts were to be avoided on "principle".....however, and this helps address recent posts regarding Hitler, the regulation's authors reserved the right to retaliate if the enemy inititated strategic attacks directed against the German civilian population.

Hitler's overriding of Luftwaffe ops over Britian though, i'd attribute more to stupidiity vs. any doctrine. He blundered...plain and simple and delivered victory to Fighter Command.

Regarding Regulation 16, the rejection of Douhetian theory was based on the thought that the primary objective of terror bombing civilians was that it was likely to be counterproductive, actually increasing the enemy's will rather than breaking it.

Bombing the enemy seat of government was discussed in the Regulation, and it was thought that if conducted at the right moment, national morale might be impacted but there was caution in that an enemy capital would likely be heavily defended. (Moscow proved this to be the case, if not Warsaw)

The Luftwaffe view on strategic bombing was to target sources of enemy power; production, food production, import facilities (ports), power stations, railroads and railyards, military barracks and centers of gov. administration.




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RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/28/2009 5:29:50 AM   
scott64


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RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/28/2009 8:44:01 AM   
Grollub


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RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/28/2009 8:54:10 AM   
Apollo11


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Good morning!


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RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/28/2009 9:00:01 AM   
comte


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RE: THE THREAD!!! - 10/28/2009 9:00:31 AM   
Grollub


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< Message edited by Grollub -- 10/28/2009 9:01:22 AM >

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