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Japanese aircraft production - 10/28/2009 5:43:34 PM   
Runyon

 

Posts: 10
Joined: 10/27/2009
Status: offline 		I am still learning this game, but enjoy it very much. I have two questions that I'm hoping players experienced with the Japanese economy can answer.

Currently I am playing scenario 2 as Japanese v. the AI. In doing some research on historical Japanese aircraft production numbers, I found the following:

1941 - 5,088 aircraft (including 1,080 fighters, 1,461 bombers)
1942 - 8,861 (2,935 f, 2,433 b)
1943 - 16,693 (7,147 f, 4,189 b)
1944 - 28,180 (13,811 f, 4,189 b)
1945 - 11,066 (5,474 f, 1,934 b)

My game is in early 1942, and I am on track to produce about 5,300 aircraft of all types during the course of the year. In order to meet historical numbers, I am going to have to ramp up production significantly, then double it next year, and nearly double it again the following year. The number of resources necessary to build the frames and engines necessary to meet these numbers seems overwhelming, and I would have to expand nearly every factory several times. Are these goals even realistically possible within the game's production model? If so, is this something I should even be attempting to do, or are there severe repercussions that I need to be aware of?

Thanks

Post #: 1
RE: Japanese aircraft production - 10/28/2009 6:08:18 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		Do the numbers you quote include trainers?  Trainers are abstracted in the game and not produced.

I'd be very careful increasing production too quickly.  You run the risk of sucking up much needed supply and wrecking your economy.  I'd pace out any economic increases, especially during the expansion phase (~6 months) of the war.

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RE: Japanese aircraft production - 10/28/2009 6:11:15 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline 		Tread lightly...Your HI factories will produce HI Points from the Resources that are shipped to them. The HI Points are warehoused until spent.

If you expand existing early war aircraft factories too much too early, you will spend HI points on early war aircraft that you may not necessarily need, when you could have saved the HI points for later.

Later on, as R&D is completed, you will have factories coming online that produce more advanced aircraft. Better to use your HI points on these planes....IMO.

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RE: Japanese aircraft production - 10/28/2009 7:49:01 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
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From: Kansas City, MO
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Runyon

1941 - 5,088 aircraft (including 1,080 fighters, 1,461 bombers)
1942 - 8,861 (2,935 f, 2,433 b)
1943 - 16,693 (7,147 f, 4,189 b)
1944 - 28,180 (13,811 f, 4,189 b)
1945 - 11,066 (5,474 f, 1,934 b)




I think Mike Solli hit your problem on the head. When you compare your "5300" to the total number of fighters and bombers built historically, you are pretty much "on target".

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Post #: 4
RE: Japanese aircraft production - 10/28/2009 7:56:51 PM   
Jonathan Pollard


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Status: offline 		Also keep in mind that on the 1st of each month you'll take a massive HI hit, 5 HI for every pilot in training. I assume this is to represent HI spent on the training aircraft that the newbs wreck.

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RE: Japanese aircraft production - 10/28/2009 8:21:03 PM   
pad152

 

Posts: 2871
Joined: 4/23/2000
Status: offline 		The trick is to pick one or two fighters and one or two bombers, trying to build everything will lead to economic crash. Put all of the R&D into one naval fighter and one army fighter, same with bombers for each year.
Also don't forget engines, there is nothing worst to see you favorite fighter to go into production only to find out you are no longer building enough engines of the right type. Nothing will end the game faster than expanding one too many factories! always save your game just before making any changes to factories, I've learned that lesson the hard way!! WitpTracker for AE is great to see what you are spending HI on and the required resources, help with tracking engine production/use, plus the effect/cost of any changes.








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Post #: 6
RE: Japanese aircraft production - 10/29/2009 2:59:47 PM   
xj900uk

 

Posts: 1340
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Status: offline 		Drop the Nate & build the Oscar I & II for the JAAF.  Best advice going

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Post #: 7
RE: Japanese aircraft production - 10/29/2009 3:06:23 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
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From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		Are you playing with PDU on or off?  That makes a big difference.

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Post #: 8
RE: Japanese aircraft production - 10/29/2009 3:10:52 PM   
vlcz


Posts: 387
Joined: 8/24/2009
From: Spain
Status: offline 		tricks and advices (most of them very apropiate anyway) aside ... are those production numbers reachable/advisable in game? ..even discounting trainers seems a huge expansion

1941 - 5,088 aircraft (including 1,080 fighters, 1,461 bombers)
1942 - 8,861 (2,935 f, 2,433 b)
1943 - 16,693 (7,147 f, 4,189 b)
1944 - 28,180 (13,811 f, 4,189 b)
1945 - 11,066 (5,474 f, 1,934 b)

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Post #: 9
RE: Japanese aircraft production - 10/29/2009 3:32:47 PM   
Micke II


Posts: 218
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From: Paris France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jonathan Pollard

Also keep in mind that on the 1st of each month you'll take a massive HI hit, 5 HI for every pilot in training. I assume this is to represent HI spent on the training aircraft that the newbs wreck.



Where is it possible to find this information ? I have seen nothing in the rules concerning this aspect.

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RE: Japanese aircraft production - 10/29/2009 3:33:05 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		Seems high to me. Also, keep in mind that all the Japanese training air units that arrive late game have their aircraft with them. I think these numbers far exceed what we "see" in the game.



Just a bit of math to (very roughly) estimate HI use from these numbers:



Assumptions:

Fighters = 1 engine

Bombers = 2 engines






Attachment (1)

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Post #: 11
RE: Japanese aircraft production - 10/29/2009 3:35:29 PM   
n01487477


Posts: 4779
Joined: 2/21/2006
Status: offline 		Do-able?
I think the 42-43 is possible and an average of 44-45 might be attainable, but probably impossible given the supply constraints in AE ...

Remember these figures are from the beginning of the year ... If I'm wrong I apologise.

1941 - 5,088 aircraft (including 1,080 fighters, 1,461 bombers) -- Well Japan starts at 375/Mth = 4500 (588 down on '41) Need 424/mth, expansion of 49 (49000 supplies)
1942 - 8,861 (2,935 f, 2,433 b) 375 + 83/ mth (over the year) in 42 = 458 Need 738, expansion of 280 (280,000+ supplies)
1943 - 16,693 (7,147 f, 4,189 b) need 1391/mth (1391-738=653) or 653,000 supplies
1944 - 28,180 (13,811 f, 4,189 b)need 2348/mth (2348-1391=957) or 957,000 supplies
1945 - 11,066 (5,474 f, 1,934 b)



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RE: Japanese aircraft production - 10/29/2009 3:38:10 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Micke II


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jonathan Pollard

Also keep in mind that on the 1st of each month you'll take a massive HI hit, 5 HI for every pilot in training. I assume this is to represent HI spent on the training aircraft that the newbs wreck.



Where is it possible to find this information ? I have seen nothing in the rules concerning this aspect.


I've never seen it in the rule book. Some of the developers have mentioned it after someone noticed that HI took a big, unexplained hit on the first of every month.

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RE: Japanese aircraft production - 10/29/2009 3:39:17 PM   
n01487477


Posts: 4779
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Status: offline
quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jonathan Pollard
Also keep in mind that on the 1st of each month you'll take a massive HI hit, 5 HI for every pilot in training. I assume this is to represent HI spent on the training aircraft that the newbs wreck.


Where is it possible to find this information ? I have seen nothing in the rules concerning this aspect.


Undocumented but there ... TrackerAE 1.2 has it included ...

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Post #: 14
RE: Japanese aircraft production - 10/29/2009 3:41:05 PM   
n01487477


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This thread has some info ... sorry Mike, I seem to be shadowing you tonight ;)


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Post #: 15
RE: Japanese aircraft production - 10/29/2009 3:58:44 PM   
vaned74

 

Posts: 389
Joined: 11/17/2008
Status: offline 		Hey Mike - the HI numbers in your chart above are a little off. The column HI (month) is actually for the year. The column HI (day) is not valid (1/30th of the month which was actually the year).

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Post #: 16
RE: Japanese aircraft production - 10/29/2009 4:14:26 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vaned74

Hey Mike - the HI numbers in your chart above are a little off. The column HI (month) is actually for the year. The column HI (day) is not valid (1/30th of the month which was actually the year).


Oops, you're right. Those are annual production figures, not monthly production figures.

How's this:






Attachment (1)

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RE: Japanese aircraft production - 10/29/2009 5:36:10 PM   
Runyon

 

Posts: 10
Joined: 10/27/2009
Status: offline 		Thanks for the advice, input, and explanations. I continue to learn more about this game every day, in no small part to reading these forums.

Do the numbers you quote include trainers? Trainers are abstracted in the game and not produced.

That's a good point. I'm pretty sure the numbers do include trainers, as well as recon, transport, liaison, and anything else the military used. I wasn't aware how the game handled trainers. This makes reaching the goals seem a little easier. The number for bombers includes single engine bombers such as Kates and Vals too. I imagine the late war production numbers include a lot of cheap planes built for one way trips too.

Are you playing with PDU on or off? That makes a big difference.

I do have PDU on.

The trick is to pick one or two fighters and one or two bombers, trying to build everything will lead to economic crash. Put all of the R&D into one naval fighter and one army fighter, same with bombers for each year.

This is what I'm going to try to do, based on the theory that fewer, better planes are better than a whole lot of junk.

I still only have a vague notion of the big economic picture, but the daily breakdown in HI helps. I'm also trying understand how to best make use of the information in Tracker.

Even if the economy can build all these planes, will there be enough pilots to fly them?


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Post #: 18
RE: Japanese aircraft production - 10/29/2009 7:34:17 PM   
ChezDaJez


Posts: 3436
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
Status: offline
quote:

Even if the economy can build all these planes, will there be enough pilots to fly them?


You'll always have enough pilots to fly them. How well they fly them is a different subject.

Chez

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RE: Japanese aircraft production - 10/29/2009 8:16:12 PM   
Mike Solli


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Status: offline 		Well put, Chez.

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Post #: 20
RE: Japanese aircraft production - 10/29/2009 9:44:52 PM   
pad152

 

Posts: 2871
Joined: 4/23/2000
Status: offline 		Glad to see someone is looking at aircraft production costs, it wasn't until I used Tracker for AE that you see the true cost of things!

I'm coming to the conclusion that it really is pilots not planes that really matter, level 60 exp pilots flying Ki-44's don't do as well as level 70 flying KI-43c's. Pilot training is more important than aircraft type, this became clear playing Japanese after the first AE patch slowed pilot training!

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RE: Japanese aircraft production - 10/30/2009 1:51:10 AM   
tigercub


Posts: 2004
Joined: 2/3/2003
From: brisbane oz
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152

Glad to see someone is looking at aircraft production costs, it wasn't until I used Tracker for AE that you see the true cost of things!

I'm coming to the conclusion that it really is pilots not planes that really matter, level 60 exp pilots flying Ki-44's don't do as well as level 70 flying KI-43c's. Pilot training is more important than aircraft type, this became clear playing Japanese after the first AE patch slowed pilot training!


Yep slowed it to a craw waiting for the next patch to speed it up a little.

I am now in Fed 20th42 pbm game my HI pool is increasing(71,000) supply is still just over 3,000,000 stable
the only thing i really worry about is Resource start of game 7,300,000 and now 5,900,000
and dropping like a stone looking around the map i dont see the much to pick up.I have Singapore and Philippines and Borneo and Palembang (half of Sumatra) and all of Burma and out to PM and Henderson field i feel the lack of Resources will be the crash of my industry.

Tiger!

< Message edited by tigercub -- 10/30/2009 1:54:20 AM >

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RE: Japanese aircraft production - 10/30/2009 1:16:35 PM   
Mike Solli


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Status: offline 		Tigercub, you will take care of about 90% of Honshu's resource needs by shipping all excess resources from the other Home Islands.  Add in the excess resources from China, Manchuria, Korea, Formosa and Indochina, and you're there.  You really don't need any resources from the SRA.  Honshu needs over 6 million resources a month and produces half that.

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RE: Japanese aircraft production - 10/30/2009 2:00:14 PM   
Streptokok

 

Posts: 159
Joined: 8/30/2009
Status: offline 		Im sorry to "fly" in this thread like last newb on Earth but still...

How do you "store" any HI when the pool gets empited every moth due to pilot training?
Seems to me it doesnt matter how much HI I "save" during the month, at the end of it the pool gets cleaned out and it
starts to fill again during the month.

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RE: Japanese aircraft production - 10/30/2009 4:59:31 PM   
Mike Solli


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Status: offline 		You're going to spend ~20k HI on the first of the month for pilot training.  If that's all you're saving by the end of the month, you're spending too much HI on other things or not producing enough HI.  If you have expanded your economy too much, you're spending is exceeding your HI production.  The other possibility is that your HI factories aren't getting the resources and/or fuel they need to produce HI. 

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RE: Japanese aircraft production - 10/31/2009 1:36:16 AM   
tigercub


Posts: 2004
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From: brisbane oz
Status: offline 		So i can relax i have done the right thing my economy is going great guns but don`t under stand the drop in Resources from 7,300,000 at start to now 5,865,000 is it talking about all Resources under my control or just in the Japaneses main land?

Tiger!


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RE: Japanese aircraft production - 10/31/2009 2:35:43 AM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		It's all the resources you control.  Ship them to Honshu as fast as you can.  Honshu sucks over 6 million resources a month and only produces 3 million a month.

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RE: Japanese aircraft production - 11/2/2009 9:30:17 AM   
Streptokok

 

Posts: 159
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

You're going to spend ~20k HI on the first of the month for pilot training.  If that's all you're saving by the end of the month, you're spending too much HI on other things or not producing enough HI.  If you have expanded your economy too much, you're spending is exceeding your HI production.  The other possibility is that your HI factories aren't getting the resources and/or fuel they need to produce HI. 


That does not compute. In my game I think I had about 38k, one month over 40k HI stored; it was all gone at the end of month??

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RE: Japanese aircraft production - 11/2/2009 11:50:46 AM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tigercub

So i can relax i have done the right thing my economy is going great guns but don`t under stand the drop in Resources from 7,300,000 at start to now 5,865,000 is it talking about all Resources under my control or just in the Japaneses main land?

Tiger!




I had the same question in mind as you, while being sure that it shows total resources, not just the ones in Japan. Which then leads to the problem that you´ve by far not producing enough resources it seems, while other people said they would produce excess resources. No matter if you transport the resources or not, they should increase, not decrease IMO.

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RE: Japanese aircraft production - 11/2/2009 4:20:50 PM   
CMDRMCTOAST


Posts: 673
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From: Mount Vernon wa..
Status: offline 		On another note you will probly want to turn off building Hitachi Amikazi , Hitachi Early , and nakajima koto buki
engine building early, I stopped production of Hitachi Amikazi engines at 125 in pool as these go into the E14Y1 Glens
Wich are the float planes from the subs, you build around 60 subs with this capability and ive already lost 3 of mine
to asw activity in the first month so switching these early helps in the long run.
I may bump up the engines too 175 and build that many aircraft and switch them..
Also
I have a pool of 350 hitachi early engines so I wont build more than that, would need to watch there use as most of those planes
get upgraded.
and a pool of 250 nakajima koto buki engines wich go into the Cluade, Dave and the Nate's..
The other engine in question is the Mitsubishi HA-31 I have 250 of these and am considering running that too 300..
and switching its production to something else..
Maybe some of you numbers crunchers can go into further explanation on this..

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