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Skip Bombing Question - 11/5/2009 5:37:08 PM   
Wittmann30


Posts: 43
Joined: 3/5/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Hi there,

is the skip-bombing tactic activated from the start of game or activated in 1943 as historical?

Cheers,
Wittmann
Post #: 1
RE: Skip Bombing Question - 11/5/2009 7:18:39 PM   
Barb


Posts: 2503
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Bratislava, Slovakia
Status: offline 		It is activated from the begining. Just set your bombers to flight Naval Attack at 100ft. But dont expect hits early. You need experience and LowNaval skill high.

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Post #: 2
RE: Skip Bombing Question - 11/5/2009 7:30:09 PM   
PresterJohn001


Posts: 382
Joined: 8/11/2009
Status: offline 		Actually it seems pretty effective right from the start, overly so. Dutch bombers at 100ft seem to get more hits than my Nells and Betties at 6000ft. Maybe its just me

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Post #: 3
RE: Skip Bombing Question - 11/5/2009 8:33:36 PM   
Wittmann30


Posts: 43
Joined: 3/5/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Thanks for the answers :)

I guessed so that is not coded in detail starting in 1943. I think skip bombing was a brutal effectic way of sinking ships..

Maybe an suggestion for an upcoming patch?
Just my 2 cents...


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Post #: 4
RE: Skip Bombing Question - 11/6/2009 5:51:43 PM   
morganbj


Posts: 3634
Joined: 8/12/2007
From: Mosquito Bite, Texas
Status: offline 		I think some of my bombers have skipped bombing altogether. 

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Post #: 5
RE: Skip Bombing Question - 11/6/2009 5:58:11 PM   
oldman45


Posts: 2320
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Jacksonville Fl
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan

I think some of my bombers have skipped bombing altogether. 


I was convinced that mine were the only ones that had done that, now I don't feel so bad. While its painful to watch, to see those Bettys come in and drop their torps and make the hits, (and survive the flak) yet my much smaller and faster B-25's can't hit a volcano and die in droves to the world renown japanese AA fire ;)

One day my guys will have that magic expeirence number

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Post #: 6
RE: Skip Bombing Question - 11/6/2009 8:42:02 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45


quote:

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan

I think some of my bombers have skipped bombing altogether. 


I was convinced that mine were the only ones that had done that, now I don't feel so bad. While its painful to watch, to see those Bettys come in and drop their torps and make the hits, (and survive the flak) yet my much smaller and faster B-25's can't hit a volcano and die in droves to the world renown japanese AA fire ;)

One day my guys will have that magic expeirence number


Being a proud memeber of the Didn't Finish The Manual Club (Hey! A second T-shirt oppo!) I didn't know skip bombing was A Thing. Level bombing from any altitude--1000 feet included--with any model yielded zip results. Now, thanks to my buds on the forum, I have B-25s at 100 feet in late 1942 (with low-level experience in the 20s and 30s) bombing the snot out of AKs at anchor in Lae. I mean like four hits per mission with seven planes. Thanks forum buddies!

Wish I could go back and re-defend Java now. Oh, well, next game.

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Post #: 7
RE: Skip Bombing Question - 11/6/2009 9:04:32 PM   
Fishbed

 

Posts: 1822
Joined: 11/21/2005
From: Beijing, China - Paris, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45


quote:

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan

I think some of my bombers have skipped bombing altogether. 


I was convinced that mine were the only ones that had done that, now I don't feel so bad. While its painful to watch, to see those Bettys come in and drop their torps and make the hits, (and survive the flak) yet my much smaller and faster B-25's can't hit a volcano and die in droves to the world renown japanese AA fire ;)

One day my guys will have that magic expeirence number


Being a proud memeber of the Didn't Finish The Manual Club (Hey! A second T-shirt oppo!) I didn't know skip bombing was A Thing. Level bombing from any altitude--1000 feet included--with any model yielded zip results. Now, thanks to my buds on the forum, I have B-25s at 100 feet in late 1942 (with low-level experience in the 20s and 30s) bombing the snot out of AKs at anchor in Lae. I mean like four hits per mission with seven planes. Thanks forum buddies!

Wish I could go back and re-defend Java now. Oh, well, next game.


Yeah, that's exactly why I have HR forbidding it before a certain date. The results are just unbelievable.

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Post #: 8
RE: Skip Bombing Question - 11/6/2009 9:29:47 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishbed


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45


quote:

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan

I think some of my bombers have skipped bombing altogether. 


I was convinced that mine were the only ones that had done that, now I don't feel so bad. While its painful to watch, to see those Bettys come in and drop their torps and make the hits, (and survive the flak) yet my much smaller and faster B-25's can't hit a volcano and die in droves to the world renown japanese AA fire ;)

One day my guys will have that magic expeirence number


Being a proud memeber of the Didn't Finish The Manual Club (Hey! A second T-shirt oppo!) I didn't know skip bombing was A Thing. Level bombing from any altitude--1000 feet included--with any model yielded zip results. Now, thanks to my buds on the forum, I have B-25s at 100 feet in late 1942 (with low-level experience in the 20s and 30s) bombing the snot out of AKs at anchor in Lae. I mean like four hits per mission with seven planes. Thanks forum buddies!

Wish I could go back and re-defend Java now. Oh, well, next game.


Yeah, that's exactly why I have HR forbidding it before a certain date. The results are just unbelievable.


Well, to be fair, so are the Betty torpedo attack results. Not only hits, but lack of shoot-downs while low&slow. (Not to mention the AI's mid-ocean satellite recon capabilities.)

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Post #: 9
RE: Skip Bombing Question - 11/6/2009 10:08:54 PM   
FatR

 

Posts: 2522
Joined: 10/23/2009
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline 		You never have enough Betties, they owe much of their accuracy to the limited cadre of good pilots, and they are made of gas-soaked tissue paper. But everything can skipbomb.

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Post #: 10
RE: Skip Bombing Question - 11/7/2009 4:58:41 AM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatR

You never have enough Betties, they owe much of their accuracy to the limited cadre of good pilots, and they are made of gas-soaked tissue paper. But everything can skipbomb.


I play the AI, and it has hundreds and hundreds and HUNDREDS of Bettys. I've shot down over 600 in ten months, and they keep coming.

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Post #: 11
RE: Skip Bombing Question - 11/7/2009 5:43:13 AM   
morganbj


Posts: 3634
Joined: 8/12/2007
From: Mosquito Bite, Texas
Status: offline 		The AI cheats? Oh my!


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Post #: 12
RE: Skip Bombing Question - 11/7/2009 7:46:12 AM   
oldman45


Posts: 2320
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Jacksonville Fl
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan

The AI cheats? Oh my!




The AI doesn't cheat, it just has strategic reserves

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Post #: 13
RE: Skip Bombing Question - 11/7/2009 7:58:12 AM   
Fishbed

 

Posts: 1822
Joined: 11/21/2005
From: Beijing, China - Paris, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Well, to be fair, so are the Betty torpedo attack results. Not only hits, but lack of shoot-downs while low&slow. (Not to mention the AI's mid-ocean satellite recon capabilities.)


We most probably don't play the same game. My betties die in droves and half of them never seem to be able to get to their target as far as Deboynes or Russell islands.

So you want to "cheat" because you believe the other side to be "cheating" too? Interesting.
Agains the IA I may understand though, but against a human opponent... Just check à EU Banana's kills with Mitchells in the guad campaign...

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Post #: 14
RE: Skip Bombing Question - 11/7/2009 8:12:47 AM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishbed


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Well, to be fair, so are the Betty torpedo attack results. Not only hits, but lack of shoot-downs while low&slow. (Not to mention the AI's mid-ocean satellite recon capabilities.)


We most probably don't play the same game. My betties die in droves and half of them never seem to be able to get to their target as far as Deboynes or Russell islands.

So you want to "cheat" because you believe the other side to be "cheating" too? Interesting.
Agains the IA I may understand though, but against a human opponent... Just check à EU Banana's kills with Mitchells in the guad campaign...



you sure play the same game. You want to know the difference? He´s playing the Allied and you´re playing the Japanese...

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Post #: 15
RE: Skip Bombing Question - 11/7/2009 8:21:52 AM   
Fishbed

 

Posts: 1822
Joined: 11/21/2005
From: Beijing, China - Paris, France
Status: offline 		Well I played the Allies during my first PBEM. Hit shokaku with two devastating skip bombing 500lbs with Mitchells and sank it. Been there, saved my ass, but wasn't very fair
Although I lost quite some planes in the process (they apparently needed 3 or 4 days or ininterrupted sorties to start hitting things).
We did accept it in July 1943 as being kewl (although well I don't think northern Pacific is the best place out there to use skip-bombing in the real world... Usually it's tough when the waves are higher than what the bomb can be expected to jump), but well both my opponent and me are not too found of it now that we're playing in August 1942...


< Message edited by Fishbed -- 11/7/2009 8:22:17 AM >

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RE: Skip Bombing Question - 11/7/2009 9:34:02 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishbed


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Well, to be fair, so are the Betty torpedo attack results. Not only hits, but lack of shoot-downs while low&slow. (Not to mention the AI's mid-ocean satellite recon capabilities.)


We most probably don't play the same game. My betties die in droves and half of them never seem to be able to get to their target as far as Deboynes or Russell islands.

So you want to "cheat" because you believe the other side to be "cheating" too? Interesting.
Agains the IA I may understand though, but against a human opponent... Just check à EU Banana's kills with Mitchells in the guad campaign...


It's not a cheat if the game allows it. Prevent LBs from going to 100 feet? It's possible in the code. Prevent that until a hard date? Also possible.
The game is the game; it isn't perfect history. Did all USN torpedoes suddenly heal themselves between 2359 and 0001 on New Year's Eve 1943? No, individual skippers and crews got imaginative (or they didn't) and some boats' fish worked pretty well long before the official fix. Did every aircraft maintenance crew fix planes at the same rate? No. And so forth.

I've only used skip bombing against moored cargo vessels, and I'd expect devastating results. I don't plan to allow myself to use the tactic in the open sea. As said elsewhere, sea states should make it impossible, or at least non-productive, but I doubt the code exists to model this, so I won't do it. But in NG, in late 1942, pierside? Yep. I consider it compensation for the AI having lost over 1400 Betties in ten months (I checked; my memory was off), with no reduction in sorties, or any percieved morale or fatigue effects in their crews.

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Post #: 17
RE: Skip Bombing Question - 11/8/2009 1:26:32 AM   
John Lansford

 

Posts: 2662
Joined: 4/29/2002
Status: offline 		The Allies used skip bombing against ships in the open ocean quite effectively, though.

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RE: Skip Bombing Question - 11/9/2009 5:32:54 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
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quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

The Allies used skip bombing against ships in the open ocean quite effectively, though.


In my experiecne the sea varies a good bit. Open ocean behaves very differently than shallow water in terms of wave behavior and randomness. I don't have a comprehensive knowledge of PTO skip bombing, but I'd bet that a lot of the successes were within sight of land.

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Post #: 19
RE: Skip Bombing Question - 11/9/2009 6:23:42 PM   
jazman

 

Posts: 369
Joined: 1/20/2007
From: Crush Depth
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

The Allies used skip bombing against ships in the open ocean quite effectively, though.


In my experiecne the sea varies a good bit. Open ocean behaves very differently than shallow water in terms of wave behavior and randomness. I don't have a comprehensive knowledge of PTO skip bombing, but I'd bet that a lot of the successes were within sight of land.


If you use bombs made in California they like the waves.

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RE: Skip Bombing Question - 11/9/2009 9:51:30 PM   
John Lansford

 

Posts: 2662
Joined: 4/29/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

The Allies used skip bombing against ships in the open ocean quite effectively, though.


In my experiecne the sea varies a good bit. Open ocean behaves very differently than shallow water in terms of wave behavior and randomness. I don't have a comprehensive knowledge of PTO skip bombing, but I'd bet that a lot of the successes were within sight of land.


IIRC the Bismarck Sea battle was conducted in the open ocean and all 8 transports and most of the escorts were sunk by skip bombing B-25's.

I've tried skip bombing with my LBA's and so far have had mixed results. Against warships the casualty rate is very high, but against transports and especially the docked ones the hit rate goes way, way up. What I've got a question about is the level bombing torpedo bombers; the Kates attacking my TF's at extended range get enormous numbers of hits (Pensacola was sunk by 10 level bombing hits from Kates), while I got 2 hits from one lone Avenger on a transport too. Guess the "one plane, one bomb hit maximum" no longer applies...

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RE: Skip Bombing Question - 11/9/2009 11:04:09 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

The Allies used skip bombing against ships in the open ocean quite effectively, though.


In my experiecne the sea varies a good bit. Open ocean behaves very differently than shallow water in terms of wave behavior and randomness. I don't have a comprehensive knowledge of PTO skip bombing, but I'd bet that a lot of the successes were within sight of land.


IIRC the Bismarck Sea battle was conducted in the open ocean and all 8 transports and most of the escorts were sunk by skip bombing B-25's.



I've seen both the Atlantic and Pacific smooth as glass 1500+ miles from continents, and I've seen 40 foot seas. Glassy open sea is no different than glassy in 200 feet of continental shelf, but overall I think the open sea is more variable, and generally has swells high enough to make bomb deflection a concern.

I'm treating my current game as "broken" due to bonehead errors on my part in 1942. I want to play long enough to see some good offensive toys for the Allies, maybe through the Marianas phase, then I'll re-start with Patch 2. Until then, given this is a lab now, I'm going to play around and see what rules I want to put on myself for the next, real game.

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RE: Skip Bombing Question - 11/9/2009 11:26:53 PM   
Barb


Posts: 2503
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Bratislava, Slovakia
Status: offline 		Actually skip-bombing should be named side-slamming. In usual attacks against the sides of enemy ships, pilots dropped two bombs aiming the second one to directly hit the enemy ship.
If the second one was too long, the first one will skip to the target.
If the second one was accurate - kablamoo and down went the ship
If the second one was too short, it skipped to the enemy target.

If two planes were involved in attack against one ship (common practice), each attacked from different direction to force the ship to expose its side. The one attacking along the ship lenght kept the guncrews down while the other plane had enough time to aim. Planes switched their positions after each attack. Basicaly one 2-plane section was able to bring 20 .5inch machine guns and 4x1000lbs or 8x500lbs (with bomb-bay droptank on take off) on any target.
One thing I am certain of: I would never volunteer as an AA gunner on Japanese merchant sailing in range of B-25s


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RE: Skip Bombing Question - 11/10/2009 2:18:50 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

Actually skip-bombing should be named side-slamming. In usual attacks against the sides of enemy ships, pilots dropped two bombs aiming the second one to directly hit the enemy ship.
If the second one was too long, the first one will skip to the target.
If the second one was accurate - kablamoo and down went the ship
If the second one was too short, it skipped to the enemy target.

If two planes were involved in attack against one ship (common practice), each attacked from different direction to force the ship to expose its side. The one attacking along the ship lenght kept the guncrews down while the other plane had enough time to aim. Planes switched their positions after each attack. Basicaly one 2-plane section was able to bring 20 .5inch machine guns and 4x1000lbs or 8x500lbs (with bomb-bay droptank on take off) on any target.
One thing I am certain of: I would never volunteer as an AA gunner on Japanese merchant sailing in range of B-25s



Thanks. I did not know this stuff.

I only tried 100 ft. "skip bombing" in game because, despite a year's worth of practice, I got zero hits from 1000 ft., with sticks of bombs, against pier-side ships with no fighter protection. Dutch, UK, USA, multiple plane models, weather differences, you name it, no effectiveness. I totally understand maneuvering ships and higher altitudes, but anchored, 1000 feet, full bomb loads--the laws of probability should result in hits. But the random numbers don't. Skip bombing may be too effective in the game, but low altitude LB attacks are too ineffective IMO.

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Post #: 24
RE: Skip Bombing Question - 11/10/2009 3:56:27 PM   
EUBanana


Posts: 4552
Joined: 9/30/2003
From: Little England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishbed
Just check à EU Banana's kills with Mitchells in the guad campaign...


You rang?

quote:


Morning Air attack on TF, near Goodenough Island at 102,130

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 23



Allied aircraft
Kittyhawk IA x 5
B-17E Fortress x 6
P-40E Warhawk x 6


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
Kittyhawk IA: 1 destroyed
B-17E Fortress: 6 damaged
P-40E Warhawk: 1 destroyed

Japanese Ships
BB Mutsu, Bomb hits 1
CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 14, heavy fires, heavy damage

Christ. I wouldn't do this in a GC, but I had to test it out.

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-17E Fortress attacking from 100 feet
Naval Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-17E Fortress attacking from 100 feet
Naval Attack: 8 x 500 lb SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
3rd Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead
EII-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (11 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
11 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Raid is overhead
DII-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead
1 planes vectored on to bombers
CII-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead
2 planes vectored on to bombers


...those B17 pilots had no low level naval bombing skill to speak of and average experience.

That was before the patch though, I've tried it (a bit intermittently) since the patch, and skip bombing seems to have been pretty much nerfed. I've tried it in the grand campaign against Presterjohn, B17s from Mindanao scored a few hits but not many.

I think if anything level bombing versus ships is too weak. End of January 42, and by far the most number of ship kills has been achieved by surface combat. Not through lack of trying with bombers, they just can't hit the broad side of a barn.

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Post #: 25
RE: Skip Bombing Question - 11/10/2009 5:05:58 PM   
oldman45


Posts: 2320
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Jacksonville Fl
Status: offline 		I wasn't aware they made any changes to bombing in the patch.

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Post #: 26
RE: Skip Bombing Question - 11/10/2009 5:14:28 PM   
Ghertz

 

Posts: 48
Joined: 7/22/2009
From: Detroit, MI
Status: offline 		Historically, when did the USA begin skip bombing?

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Post #: 27
RE: Skip Bombing Question - 11/10/2009 5:25:37 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
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From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		43

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Post #: 28
RE: Skip Bombing Question - 11/10/2009 5:53:05 PM   
Ghertz

 

Posts: 48
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From: Detroit, MI
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

43

Thanks

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Post #: 29
RE: Skip Bombing Question - 11/10/2009 8:51:47 PM   
Barb


Posts: 2503
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Bratislava, Slovakia
Status: offline 		March 1943 - battle of the Bismarck Sea saw the first mass (ehm, actually some 20-30 bombers of the 120+) employment of this tactic.

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