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Command Structure - 11/4/2009 10:38:44 PM

Wooglin

Posts: 65
Joined: 7/23/2004
Status: offline

Hi all, just bought the game. Looks great so far. If anybody can help point me to the right place on these I'd appreciate it.

What is the role/purpose of the command structure?

Specifically, are the following observations accurate?:

(Playing ED as LW) It appears that escorts from one Luftflotte cannot escort units assigned to another Luftflotte?

You can land a unit from one Fliegerkorps/Luftflotte at a base belonging to another FK/LF but I assume there is a penalty. Not receive replacements? Reduced coordination?

You cannot change the Luftflotte/Fliegerkorps of a unit?

Operation points have something to do with changing unit groupings and basing but I cannot figure it out. Seems like I start with 100 lose 4 points for a unit base transfer then the next thing I know, I have zero.

tks,

- woogie

Post #: 1

RE: Command Structure - 11/4/2009 11:53:05 PM

Baron von Beer

Posts: 232
Joined: 9/18/2003
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Each airfield is attached to a specific unit (Fliegerkorps, JAFU, etc).� When you rebase a unit, they will then fall under whatever unit that base is attached to. Eg: Move a unit from Luftflotte 3's Fliegerkorps IV, to a base attached to Fliegerkorps I, Luftflotte 2, then the unit will now fall under the latters command.

Correct about escorts, only work with their own Luftflotte. Likewise, bombers can only fly with units from their current Fliegerkorps (Or JAFU if you transfer them to such a base).�� The one exception is your KGr.100 units. They can fly lead for any bombers (possibly only night bombing, that's what they're for, and all I've used them for, never tried if it carries to daylight raids too).� However, if you move them to another base, they lose this ability and can only lead from the unit their new base is attached. Moving them back to the original base will not change that, so don't move them unless you "mean it".

�

Operations points: Transferring costs 1 op point per aircraft in the unit.� 40 planes in a full Geschwader, 40 points to move.� So long as you have 1 point though, you can still move an entire unit. Not sure if this has any penalties, such as increased transfer time.

(in reply to Wooglin)

Post #: 2

RE: Command Structure - 11/5/2009 1:28:39 AM

Wayn Reinbold

Posts: 27
Joined: 2/28/2009
From: Perth (Australia)
Status: offline

Personally, I think it should require zero command points to move an air unit to a new base.

Note: I'm more familiar with the "Bombing the Reich" game.

To get around the 1 point per aircraft what I do is:
1 change the unit aircraft type to something else, you will notice that the number of aircraft has dropped to zero. It should now consume zero command points to move this unit. It will take about 2-3 days for the air unit to restock with aircraft.

2 If you want to stay with the starting A/C type change back to this type to aircraft type. I typically do this before moving the unit. I'm not sure if it matter if you do this at the current airbase or the new airbase. If you do this additional change it takes longer for the air unit to restock with aircraft.

3. You could change your mind again and move this air unit to yet another air base. This does not appear to incure any further penalties in regard to the restock rate. In these double moves it can take 3-4 day for the air unit to restock with aircraft.

presumabley all f the above applies to both games and both sides, you need to test it out.

< Message edited by Wayn Reinbold -- 11/5/2009 4:12:16 AM >

(in reply to Wooglin)

Post #: 3

RE: Command Structure - 11/5/2009 6:21:37 AM

TechSgt

Posts: 306
Joined: 9/19/2008
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayn Reinbold

Personally, I think it should require zero command points to move an air unit to a new base.

These are "operation" points. The cost represents moving the support elements.

Note: I'm more familiar with the "Bombing the Reich" game.

To get around the 1 point per aircraft what I do is:
1 change the unit aircraft type to something else, you will notice that the number of aircraft has dropped to zero. It should now consume zero command points to move this unit. It will take about 2-3 days for the air unit to restock with aircraft.

If you pay the op point costs the unit is ready the next day. Your method cost a few days a unit in non-operational status.
Plus, doesn't this seem a little "gamey"

2 If you want to stay with the starting A/C type change back to this type to aircraft type. I typically do this before moving the unit. I'm not sure if it matter if you do this at the current airbase or the new airbase. If you do this additional change it takes longer for the air unit to restock with aircraft.

See above

3. You could change your mind again and move this air unit to yet another air base. This does not appear to incure any further penalties in regard to the restock rate. In these double moves it can take 3-4 day for the air unit to restock with aircraft.

presumabley all f the above applies to both games and both sides, you need to test it out.

It does.

Baron: Per you example, the 1 point move does cost extra time. Try it and see how many aircraft are still in the transfer row of the unit display the next day

TS

(in reply to Wayn Reinbold)

Post #: 4

RE: Command Structure - 11/5/2009 7:50:09 AM

harley

Posts: 1700
Joined: 10/13/2005
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Wooglin - operations points are also used to move flak and rail-flak for the defender (RAF in ED, Luftwaffe in BTR)...

everyone else - your observations are pretty much spot on.

I will add, though... (Mostly for Wayn)

When a unit drops its plane types, the actual units go into the pool with a delay added, including delay for repairs when they are assigned to a new unit, they remain in transit for the period of this delay, on top of the standard aircraft delivered to a unit delay. So it can be quite counter-productive to do this. Even genuine changes of aircraft do this - the spares go back to the pool, with a delay...

_____________________________

gigiddy gigiddy gig-i-ddy

(in reply to TechSgt)

Post #: 5

RE: Command Structure - 11/5/2009 1:31:40 PM

Hard Sarge

Posts: 22741
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From: garfield hts ohio usa
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plus, depending on if the unit has any "goodies" added to it, the Unit loses them (more in line with BTR, then the BoBs)

(IE, your FG has upgraded to the 108 Gallon drop tank, you change out the plane type, and then reload it with the same plane, you are back to having the 75 gallon tank, some units do have different weapon load outs then "stock" also, works with radar and other devices also)

*You really don't want to change out 617 Squadron*

_____________________________

(in reply to harley)

Post #: 6

RE: Command Structure - 11/5/2009 3:15:18 PM

Wooglin

Posts: 65
Joined: 7/23/2004
Status: offline

Thanks all.
Still confused but less so.

- w

(in reply to Wooglin)

Post #: 7

RE: Command Structure - 11/9/2009 1:41:47 AM

Wayn Reinbold

Posts: 27
Joined: 2/28/2009
From: Perth (Australia)
Status: offline

Support Elements?
From my understanding: all the airfields had support elements, the aircrew organisation was independant of the ground crew organisation. Maybe only good enough for temporary stopover. see below.

"Gamey", possibly
but it does not match what was done in reality.
I quote an example for Martin Middlebrook's book on the Schweinfurt�Regensburg Raid 17 Aug 1943. Where German air units were flown (staged) from near Denmark to adjacent to the expected return route of the Regenburg force in near Eugen Belgian I think. Of course the Regenburg force turned south to North Africa, but these additional air units where in an ideal location to attack the Sweinfurt raid (which had been delayed by cloud cover and there was a 2? hour gap between the two missions (i'll have to check this)). Which they did. All of this is being done within the day. but the air units probably returned to their home bases!

"Gamey", but not unrealistic?

< Message edited by Wayn Reinbold -- 11/9/2009 2:07:08 AM >

(in reply to TechSgt)

Post #: 8

RE: Command Structure - 11/9/2009 2:12:31 AM

Wayn Reinbold

Posts: 27
Joined: 2/28/2009
From: Perth (Australia)
Status: offline

I agree it can be counter-productive. But in the old game you never had enough points to move much of the flak, the 500 point is more useful.

quote:

ORIGINAL: harley

Wooglin - operations points are also used to move flak and rail-flak for the defender (RAF in ED, Luftwaffe in BTR)...

everyone else - your observations are pretty much spot on.

I will add, though... (Mostly for Wayn)

When a unit drops its plane types, the actual units go into the pool with a delay added, including delay for repairs when they are assigned to a new unit, they remain in transit for the period of this delay, on top of the standard aircraft delivered to a unit delay. So it can be quite counter-productive to do this. Even genuine changes of aircraft do this - the spares go back to the pool, with a delay...

(in reply to harley)

Post #: 9

RE: Command Structure - 11/9/2009 2:22:48 AM

Hard Sarge

Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayn Reinbold

Support Elements?
From my understanding: all the airfields had support elements, the aircrew organisation was independant of the ground crew organisation. Maybe only good enough for temporary stopover. see below.

Support elements were almost always Unit controlled (the English started to take them away, but ended up with a lot of issues with the idea)

"Gamey", possibly
but it does not match what was done in reality.
I quote an example for Martin Middlebrook's book on the Schweinfurt�Regensburg Raid 17 Aug 1943. Where German air units were flown (staged) from near Denmark to adjacent to the expected return route of the Regenburg force in near Eugen Belgian I think. Of course the Regenburg force turned south to North Africa, but these additional air units where in an ideal location to attack the Sweinfurt raid (which had been delayed by cloud cover and there was a 2? hour gap between the two missions (i'll have to check this)). Which they did. All of this is being done within the day. but the air units probably returned to their home bases!
"Gamey", but not unrealistic?

_____________________________

(in reply to Wayn Reinbold)

Post #: 10

RE: Command Structure - 11/9/2009 4:49:20 AM

TechSgt

Posts: 306
Joined: 9/19/2008
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayn Reinbold

...

but it does not match what was done in reality.
I quote an example for Martin Middlebrook's book on the Schweinfurt�Regensburg Raid 17 Aug 1943. Where German air units were flown (staged) from near Denmark to adjacent to the expected return route of the Regenburg force in near Eugen Belgian I think. Of course the Regenburg force turned south to North Africa, but these additional air units where in an ideal location to attack the Sweinfurt raid (which had been delayed by cloud cover and there was a 2? hour gap between the two missions (i'll have to check this)). Which they did. All of this is being done within the day. but the air units probably returned to their home bases!
...

Wayn;
Remember, the "simulation" has a problem with units not landing at their home base. For both sides. What you say about Regensburg-Schweinfurt is true for a lot more missions than just this one. Damaged Allied planes would land at the first airfield they could find in England. After the invasion, a lot of VIII AF fighters and bombers did set down on the continent, (British or American airfields). But...

How do you do this in the context of a "simulation" that has put a priority on Command & Control?

TS

(in reply to Wayn Reinbold)

Post #: 11

RE: Command Structure - 11/9/2009 12:00:46 PM

Wayn Reinbold

Posts: 27
Joined: 2/28/2009
From: Perth (Australia)
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TechSgt

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayn Reinbold

...

but it does not match what was done in reality.
I quote an example for Martin Middlebrook's book on the Schweinfurt�Regensburg Raid 17 Aug 1943. Where German air units were flown (staged) from near Denmark to adjacent to the expected return route of the Regenburg force in near Eugen Belgian I think. Of course the Regenburg force turned south to North Africa, but these additional air units where in an ideal location to attack the Sweinfurt raid (which had been delayed by cloud cover and there was a 2? hour gap between the two missions (i'll have to check this)). Which they did. All of this is being done within the day. but the air units probably returned to their home bases!
...

Wayn;
Remember, the "simulation" has a problem with units not landing at their home base. For both sides. What you say about Regensburg-Schweinfurt is true for a lot more missions than just this one. Damaged Allied planes would land at the first airfield they could find in England. After the invasion, a lot of VIII AF fighters and bombers did set down on the continent, (British or American airfields). But...

How do you do this in the context of a "simulation" that has put a priority on Command & Control?

TS

Do you think i am abusing a "feature" in this simulation? by being able to move units for no cost? No cost is not quite right because the unit in question can be out of action for a couple of days. Admitedly these units may get to the front quicker because the unit is in a useless position in the first place (spanish border for one). In fact you guys have recognised the need and partly solved this problem by allowing 1000 point in the first movement phase and 500 points for other turns. I think I repositioned my night fighter units using this technique especially in the moon periods.

I'm not sure what you are getting at with you last comment "How do you do this in the context of a "simulation" that has put a priority on Command & Control?" Are you asking for a suggestion, or by so doing unbalance the simulation too much?
I'm not suggesting that you alter your software to enable units to stage then fly missions, the game work OK without it. and even with "cheap" unit movement, once the units are in postions that cover the right target area, they are generally not moved again, (depending on what the allies are doing of course).

(in reply to TechSgt)

Post #: 12

RE: Command Structure - 11/11/2009 6:17:53 AM

TechSgt

Posts: 306
Joined: 9/19/2008
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayn Reinbold

...

Do you think i am abusing a "feature" in this simulation? by being able to move units for no cost? No cost is not quite right because the unit in question can be out of action for a couple of days. Admitedly these units may get to the front quicker because the unit is in a useless position in the first place (spanish border for one). In fact you guys have recognised the need and partly solved this problem by allowing 1000 point in the first movement phase and 500 points for other turns. I think I repositioned my night fighter units using this technique especially in the moon periods.

It doesn't matter what I think? I idea of the operation point cost is to inject some symbolence of the logistic problems with moving military units. IMHO, I think it does it quite well without adding a lot of "red-tape or paparwork" as in real life.

The 1000 points for the first turn was; 1) an experienced player knew where the occupied enemy airfields were, and 2) it allows the player to "set-up" for their own strategy. Imagine what a process it would be to individually "set-up" every unit before beginning a game. IMHO 1000 pts seems to be a good number. But, I think 500 per turn is a bit too much.

I'm not sure what you are getting at with you last comment "How do you do this in the context of a "simulation" that has put a priority on Command & Control?" Are you asking for a suggestion, or by so doing unbalance the simulation too much?
I'm not suggesting that you alter your software to enable units to stage then fly missions, the game work OK without it. and even with "cheap" unit movement, once the units are in postions that cover the right target area, they are generally not moved again, (depending on what the allies are doing of course).

I'm always willingly to listen to -- read? -- a suggestion!? IMHO, again!, I think it would unbalance the "simulation". In the real world there is bureaucracy and logistics details to deal with. I think this "simulation" does a good job in making the player "feel" the effects without getting bogged down in those bureaucratic/logistic details.

The first time I played Twelve O'clock high past the D-Day breakout as the Allies, the operation point limit, (300 points), really impacted keeping the IX AF "AND" 2 TAF in constant contact with the frontlines. It gave me a new outlook on that phase of the war. Don't forget the Italian breakout is also happening at this time. I have not played deep enough into BtR to be able to comment on the new op point levels.

TS

(in reply to Wayn Reinbold)