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Design error - 6/23/2002 4:19:50 AM   
Sid

 

Posts: 35
Joined: 5/26/2002
From: Washington and Alaska
Status: offline 		Scot McConnachie of Metro Seattle Gamers and I witnessed what must be a design error. An LCM (classified AG in the game) was engaged by an S boat with torpedoes. Worse, two torpedoes hit the LCM, which was NOT sunk immediately!

Problem 1: a torpedo cannot normally hit an LCM. The draft is too shallow. In some sea conditions a hit might occur, but no sub capatin would take the shot, the chances being too small, and the value of the target being too low.

Problem 2: If a torpedo DID hit an LCM, it would surely destory it immediately. Two hits is preposterous. ANd two hit s would not leave the LCM floating - even one would not.

I sailed in the last APA ever built - USS Francis Marion APA - 249 - and I am vary familiar with LCMs. Please believe me!

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Sid
Post #: 1
Response... - 6/23/2002 6:02:47 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		While I have seen torpedos hit AGs/LCMs in the game, I have never seen them survive a single hit, much less two. Was this in a head to head game? If not, fog of war may have prevented you from seeing the AG actually sink.

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 2
nature of game - 6/23/2002 10:56:56 AM   
Sid

 

Posts: 35
Joined: 5/26/2002
From: Washington and Alaska
Status: offline 		We have a PBM game going. This session was at the club, and we both watched the animation at the start of a Player 1 turn. It was clear. Two torpedo hits were reported, along with "Heavy Damage" - the boat sank a while later, not at once.

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Sid

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Post #: 3
Response... - 6/23/2002 11:09:26 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Does "a while later" mean during the same replay or during a later turn? In any case, I agree that it is bizarre. If you see this more than once in a very blue moon, there may be a bug worth checking. Otherwise, I would write it off to the wartime equivalent of winning the lottery. My experience is that these things sink quite quickly and easily.

The chance of hitting one of these with a torp can be lowered, but that's ship specific code that would likely enter pretty low on the priority list. I'm guessing this isn't a change we can expect to see before War in the Pacific. Sorry to disappoint, but in the grand scheme of things it's fairly minor.

Regards,

- Erik

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Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

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Post #: 4
This is moderately important. - 6/23/2002 11:58:55 AM   
Sid

 

Posts: 35
Joined: 5/26/2002
From: Washington and Alaska
Status: offline 		The main issue is that a torpedo was ever directed at a shallow draft craft.

The second issue is that a torpedo could hit a shallow draft vessel.

The third issue is that two torpedoes could hit a craft that, had one hit, would no longer exist

The fourth issue issue is that two torpedoes did not sink the craft.

The fifth issue is that the matter occurs every week or so of play IF there are AGs on the map AND IF there are subs in the same hexes.

This is very irritating and completely incorrect.

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Sid

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Post #: 5
- 6/23/2002 5:44:37 PM   
Marc von Martial


Posts: 10875
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Bonn, Germany
Status: offline 		Main Issue: It is possible in theory, so this is not an issue IMHO

Second issue: It is possible under special circumstances in theory, so this is not an issue IMHO

Third issue: The very odd results of probability calculus

Forth issue: The very odd results of probability calculus. Also you stated it actually got sunk.

Fith issue: It might indeed be a "bug" then, funny thing is that this has not been reported before. It may also be that you guys are extremly "lucky" with this matter. Also, do not underestimate the "Fog of War" feature. There might have been just one hit on the vessel but the captain/crew reporting two.
Best thing would be you send a zipped up save game file (with this inccident happening) to Erik, so we can have a look at it.


[QUOTE]and completely incorrect.[/QUOTE]

You got to remember that this is a game, so things that can happen in theory can happen in that game. Just for the reason that there´s no logged incident of things like this happening in the archives and history books doesn´t mean this can not happen.

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Marc von Martial
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Post #: 6
hey look guys - 6/24/2002 1:32:39 AM   
Sid

 

Posts: 35
Joined: 5/26/2002
From: Washington and Alaska
Status: offline 		I am now a gamer. I USED to be a real gator (amphib sailor). Before that I "qualified in submarines." I am TRYING to say something:

1) NO sub captain would target a landing craft with a torpedo.

a) Because the chance a torpedo can hit a craft with less than one meter draft is much less than 1 in 100.

b) Because the value of a torpedo is much greater than the value of the landing craft and its cargo (if any) much more than 9 times in 10.

c) Because the submarine, if it really needs to engage a landing craft, can surface and use MGs and even a deck gun with much greater chance of success - perhaps 3 times in 4.

d) Under IJN doctrine, a sub captain who fired at a small ship, much less a landing craft, would be courts martialed. He is permitted only ONE torpedo against a tanker!

2) If the algorithms in this game are realistic, even if a captain ignored good economics and doctrine, and tried to hit a landing craft with a torpedo, he would miss much more often than we are witnessing. In fact, I have NEVER seen a sub fire at an AG and miss! Certainly the probability of a hit is greater than 50%, although I am not certain how many torpedoes are being fired. Since the AGs are in groups, and since the torpedoes are probably full salvos, that is part of the explanation: the AI thinks there is a tangible chance of a hit. But it is not true. The torpedoes would sail harmlessly under the landing craft, no matter their settings, except in a bad weather situation. IF the weather is too bad, they can't even see the target, or shoot. If the weather is good, they can't go shallow enough to hit the target. Only in a slightly rough sea state MIGHT they see the target, shoot, and accidently broach at the right moment! Chances are on the order of 2:1000 IN THAT CONDITION, and absolute zero in calm or really rough seas!

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Sid

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Post #: 7
Re: This is moderately important. - 6/24/2002 1:49:20 AM   
Mike Wood


Posts: 2095
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Oakland, California
Status: offline 		Hello...

Gary told me the AI is instructed not to fire torpedoes at PT Boats or Landing Craft. If it so doing, it is a bug and I have put it on my list.

Thanks...

Michael Wood

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Post #: 8
- 6/24/2002 3:45:09 AM   
Marc von Martial


Posts: 10875
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Bonn, Germany
Status: offline 		Sid,

I fully understand what you mean. No offense intended. I just wanted to point out that in a game you might see things that not necessarily occur in reallife. Since Mike pointed out that it should not be so in the game, we probably have indeed a bug here.

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Marc von Martial
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(in reply to Sid)
Post #: 9
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