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Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund???

 
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Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? - 11/14/2009 2:32:56 AM   
kaybayray

 

Posts: 424
Joined: 6/1/2007
Status: offline 		Hey Guys <S>

I am trying to set up some Night Bombing missions in the Long 43 campaign. Am on the second day and I have 2 Squadrons of Wellington RCM AC. I am trying to set them up to draw NJG AC away from my strikes generally around Dortmund and Hamm areas. I cant even get them to show for unit selection if I place the target point 50 miles east of Dortmund. I have never had this problem before in the Original game.

I check the unit Details and they are listed as having a Combat Radius of >380miles. The distance to the target point is only 300miles. Any clue why they are not showing up? The only unit that shows is a few Mossy RCM's. Is there some date that I must get past before they can actully fly to their Range? Or am I missing something with them?

I have a 43 Campaign running in the Original BTR and I am flying these same groups to Berlin for Elint Ops. So what gives with the new version?

Later,
KayBay

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Post #: 1
RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? - 11/14/2009 4:26:04 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		Are they based a long way from your start nav point.

Could be they need to fly 100 miles to get to the point where its another 300 miles to Dortmund


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Post #: 2
RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? - 11/14/2009 5:01:49 AM   
kaybayray

 

Posts: 424
Joined: 6/1/2007
Status: offline 		No they are with 3 Group so they are in South Central Engalnd. And they are Bombers not fighters. So their operational ranges should be significantly better than Fighters.

I did check the stats between the AC in the New Version and the Original. The New version has Wellington RCM showing Combat Range at 10,000 feet of I believe 380 miles and it is 250 miles to the target point I am trying to put them at. The listed range of the same AC from the same squadron in the Original BTR is well over 1200 miles. Kind of wondering why there is such a tremendous difference between the ranges of the same AC in the same Squadron between the two versions.

I am hoping because something happens that drastically increases the operational range of the Wellington RCM in the new version at a date that I have not yet reached. However it still remains that the target point I am wanting to send them to is well short of their maximum Combat Range and I am using 10,000 feet as the altitude for the mission.

So I am at a loss for why they can not be used.

Later,
KayBay



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Post #: 3
RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? - 11/14/2009 7:09:46 AM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		one, it is a plane that wasn't flown into dangerous areas, it flew behind and off to the side, they didn't want them shot down, so they didn't fly deep into enemy areas

just as most of the best Allied Radar, wasn't allowed to fly on combat mission over the coast (they flew over England on defence)

I upped the End to 360, so it matches the bomber models (but it has a much less cruise speed, so it will not have the same range)

(I fly them over the North sea, or up and down the coast, they are looking for radar signals (the decoy part is just a side benefit, there job is to detect radar signals)

two, playbalance reasons

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RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? - 11/15/2009 5:41:34 PM   
kaybayray

 

Posts: 424
Joined: 6/1/2007
Status: offline 		Hard Sarge,

ok. So why is their Flight Range in the New Vesion < 400 but in the Original it is >1200?

The manual and even You, have stated many times over the years that RCM AC have a purpose of Seduction early in the game and then Jamming later as they obtain the capibility to do so.

Aside from the Strategic or Tactical use of these AC in the game my question focuses on why their range is so short in the new version? That is what I am asking about, that is what I want an answer to.

I am asking directly, is this range of <400 miles on Day 2 of the 43 campaign for Wellington RCM AC supposed to continue through to the end of the campaign or is there some event that ocurrs that drastically increases their range?

Recall my observation that the same AC in the same Squadron in the Original game have a range of >1200 but this is several months later in the 43 campaign. This is why I am asking the above question.

Later,
KayBay







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Post #: 5
RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? - 11/15/2009 6:48:36 PM   
joliverlay

 

Posts: 635
Joined: 1/28/2003
Status: offline 		I think his answer above was that it was a doctrine thing. If the Germans shoot it down over land and capture the radar set, you would give them a big advantage, so the range is designed to keep it from happening. Kind of like the manditory raids.

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Post #: 6
RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? - 11/15/2009 9:53:59 PM   
Baron von Beer

 

Posts: 232
Joined: 9/18/2003
Status: offline 		The RCM aircraft is more an intelligence asset. IIRC it was said that when they are flying, they detect enemy radar, etc, and in turn speed up the availability date of your own radar/specialty equipment the more they do their thing.   Hence, they can do much more for you flying along the coast listening than going into harms way.

< Message edited by Baron von Beer -- 11/15/2009 9:54:47 PM >

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RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? - 11/16/2009 2:26:48 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		I will still stand by my number 2 reason, but, if you think it should be changed, I can change it back some (I looking for some data on those firebombs I have set up, for the bomb load)

remember, this is a low, slow plane, that is mostly phased out already and the ones in action, were not with the main body anymore

(the plane did bomb Berlin, overall, I shouldn't keep it from being able to bomb Berlin, because I don't want the AI to do so)

let me know what you think, so I can make the changes or not



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Post #: 8
RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? - 11/16/2009 8:09:28 PM   
kaybayray

 

Posts: 424
Joined: 6/1/2007
Status: offline 		Hey Sarge <S>

I am not one to promote a change in this game. Can you tell me did you change anything with the Wellington RCM aircraft in the New Version with respect to Ranges?

You do recall that you and Swift are the ones that taught me that the RCM AC can act as Decoys because the AI will see them as Bomber Streams?

You do recall that you and Swift taught me that later in the game the RCM AC get Jamming capabilities and can be placed on top of a Radar site and jam it?


This is what I use them for in the Original Game. I am looking at the Wellington RCM AC in the New Vesion and on the "List Air Units" there is (8/43) next to them on the list. I dont recall if they have that in the Original. I assume that means they are due to have some upgrade of modification or something. I have been unable to find anything about that in the New Manual so far.

I dont want you to be changing things in this game on my account. I do understand the strategic reasons why constraints on flights for Elint AC would be imposed. However were these constraints not imposed in the Original game? I guess I am just trying to understand if there are differences in the two versions with respect to the RCM AC. Usint them as Decoys and Radar Jammers really makes my BC Strategy Click and if I have lost that capability permanently I would like to know so that I can develop another Strategy.

Later,
KayBay

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Post #: 9
RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? - 11/16/2009 8:40:31 PM   
Golden Bear

 

Posts: 190
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline 		From playing the '44 scenario, the 1/ Wellington RCM group seems to be a Window group and th 2/ has radar jammers. You also get a FF jammer group in the Med.

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RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? - 11/17/2009 2:07:34 AM   
kaybayray

 

Posts: 424
Joined: 6/1/2007
Status: offline 		Golden Bear <S>

Thanks, I have not got that far in my 43 campaign. I am only on day 2.

I think my overall thoughts on this topic is that if the capabilities of all the AC in this New Version are historically accurate regardless of how they may or may not be used by players then I dont want any changes considered. However if the capabilities of the AC have been modified in the New Version and are no longer Historically accurate then I would like corrections to be considered. However I must point out that I am not a nit picker about the stats. By this I mean if the game stat is within a percent or two of the actual that is by far close enough for me. I am not going to split hairs over stats in a game. But since the difference between a range of 400 miles and 1200 miles is 300% difference then I would like something considered. That is assuming that the 1200 mile range is correct. I have no clue which is the more correct here. So I will defer to Matrix as to what they want to do.

Later,
KayBay

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Post #: 11
RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? - 11/17/2009 7:53:04 AM   
TechSgt

 

Posts: 306
Joined: 9/19/2008
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kaybayray

...
I am looking at the Wellington RCM AC in the New Vesion and on the "List Air Units" there is (8/43) next to them on the list. I dont recall if they have that in the Original. I assume that means they are due to have some upgrade of modification or something. I have been unable to find anything about that in the New Manual so far.

...

Later,
KayBay

Kaybay;

Just a quick note. The (8/43) is the arrival date.

As an aircraft model comes on-line that note will show up for the first month.

TS

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Post #: 12
RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? - 11/17/2009 8:13:40 AM   
TechSgt

 

Posts: 306
Joined: 9/19/2008
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

I will still stand by my number 2 reason, but, if you think it should be changed, I can change it back some (I looking for some data on those firebombs I have set up, for the bomb load)

remember, this is a low, slow plane, that is mostly phased out already and the ones in action, were not with the main body anymore

(the plane did bomb Berlin, overall, I shouldn't keep it from being able to bomb Berlin, because I don't want the AI to do so)

let me know what you think, so I can make the changes or not



HARD_Sarge;

This is a tough call. I personally don't send my Wellies deep so I don't have a problem with the change. But... if it has a capability that gives a player an option to send it to Berlin it should be up to the player.

Using BETA, I have been noticing my Wellie RCM squadrons fly as a group when streaming, instead of individually as of old.

When sending my Mosquito B.IV's to Berlin, they now bomb as a group, not spread out as in the old version. In my style, send a squadron to Berlin nightly, this will make the Mossies deadly accurate at long ranges on Railyards and/or Harbors.


TS

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Post #: 13
RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? - 11/17/2009 8:17:51 AM   
TechSgt

 

Posts: 306
Joined: 9/19/2008
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Golden Bear

From playing the '44 scenario, the 1/ Wellington RCM group seems to be a Window group and th 2/ has radar jammers. You also get a FF jammer group in the Med.

Bear;

In '43 campaign, 1 & 2 Wellington & 3 Mossie RCM's start just ELINT equipted.

TS

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Post #: 14
RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? - 11/17/2009 8:32:07 AM   
otisabuser2


Posts: 1097
Joined: 8/13/2004
Status: offline 		I'm not sure the solution of reducing the cruise speed of the RCM Wellington is a wise decision. In a two player game the defender will always suspect that the stream flying at a snails pace is the spoof raid.

Also, is it correct that they did not fly over enemy territory ?

regards Otis

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Post #: 15
RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? - 11/17/2009 2:25:55 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		well, other then the Mossie FB, most of the Bomber types are going to show close to the same speed

so think it is the other way around, you see something showing up doing over 300 mph, is a tip off it may not be a bomber

???



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Post #: 16
RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? - 11/17/2009 2:35:55 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		something is off here

360 end, with a speed of 215, is over 1200 mile range

I think it is the base to the form up airfield that is screwing you up

I have given the Welly a better bomb load, 1x2000, 2x500, 10 100Pound fire

I had them geared to be much more fire (3500 pounds of firebombs)

(I could change it, to 1x2000, 2 400pound fire, 12 100pound fire ???)

your giving me a headache





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RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? - 11/17/2009 3:29:09 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		don't read me wrong (hassle with the net, most people take what is said to mean something the other person is not saying)

okay here

plot a raid to Berlin, and then pick a lead bomber

here in the screenshot, you see what could make the raid as a leader, no wellis show up




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RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? - 11/17/2009 3:30:00 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		now, same raid plot, but I have moved the from up point and then look to see who could fly




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RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? - 11/17/2009 3:35:39 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		those Wellies were wasting over 200-300 miles of range, to reach and return from the from up field

but

I have upped the End to 400, the X gets a little more Cruise speed

both get a better bomb load

I am going to leave the RCM Wellie alone, unless someone can point me to some better details on it


and, I got a massive headache, going to finish off what I was working on, and call it a day

(dinner didn't help)



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RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? - 11/17/2009 8:06:37 PM   
kaybayray

 

Posts: 424
Joined: 6/1/2007
Status: offline 		Hey Sarge <S>

Didnt mean to give you a headache man.

I am not sure if people are understanding what I am talking about.

I am NOT talking about Wellington Bombers. I AM talking about Wellington RCM aircract. And specifically about the overall Stated RANGE they can travel on their Detail Sheet. My point being that in the Original BTR the Wellington RCM AC list a Range of 1200 miles. While in the New Version they list a Range of under 400 miles.

I really dont care what any countries Strategic Doctrine was in WWII as to where a specific type of Aircraft was allowed to fly for any reason. My entire point is that the "Mechanical Vehicle" we are talking about has "Mechanical Capabilities".

I also realize that the "RANGE" of ANY aircraft will be effected on a mission by altitude and enemy presence among other things. This is NOT what I am discussing. ALL aircraft in this game have a "Listed Range Spec" at some stated altitude at "Cruise Speed". And cruise speed may be different for any given aircraft. This is still NOT what I am discussing. I am also not discussing the magnitude of any effect on a "Listed Stat or Spec".

I am talking about the most fundamental basic STAT itself.

Jeez... LOL.. "READ MY LIPS" <insert sign language>

Anybody that has both the Original BTR and the NEW Version BTR please open up each game as a 43 Long Campaign for the Allies. Go to "List Air Units", select "Wellington RCM" then select either of the Squadrons that show and then select "DETAIL" and then LOOK at the "RANGE".

You will see that the RANGE in the NEW version is > (less than) 400 and the RANGE in the ORIGINAL is > (greater than) 1200. This is what I am talking about. This is ALL I am talking about.

OK, NOW... go to "The War Room" section of this forum and read my post about Allied Strategic & Tactial Doctrine. In there I disucss how I employ RCM aircraft throughout this game as a campaign is played out.


So now here is my question.

What is the Actual RANGE of a Wellington RCM Aircraft at Cruise Speed at what listed altitude in WWII within 20% accuracy? And please lets dont get all bogged down in if the Humidity is this and if the Temperature is that and if there is a foul wind blowing in Denmark OK?

I really didnt think this was going to run down this road. I figured it would go something like.... Oh, the actual range is XXX at 10k alt with cruise speed. We changed it in the New Version because................

This would have been fine with me.

Later,
KayBay

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RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? - 11/18/2009 7:13:11 AM   
TechSgt

 

Posts: 306
Joined: 9/19/2008
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline 		Hard_Sarge;

Under Beta;

We've have been talking about the R-C-M Wellingtons. The bombers have been fine.

Somehow, we have all gotten a little off-course.

TS

BTW: BtR-Beta under 7 seems OK.

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Post #: 22
RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? - 11/18/2009 2:04:09 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		KBB

are you sure

"My point being that in the Original BTR the Wellington RCM AC list a Range of 1200 miles. While in the New Version they list a Range of under 400 miles."

and that is the KEY, RADIUS vs RANGE

(for the game, RADIUS is there and back, RANGE is to there)

in EDtBTR, mine still had a Range of over 800 miles





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< Message edited by Hard Sarge -- 11/18/2009 2:13:44 PM >

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RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? - 11/18/2009 2:04:57 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		gold





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Post #: 24
RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? - 11/18/2009 2:06:07 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		the changes I made




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Post #: 25
RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? - 11/18/2009 2:06:57 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		Dortmond from Gold




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Post #: 26
RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? - 11/18/2009 2:07:33 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		that blue one is going to Hamm



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Post #: 27
RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? - 11/18/2009 2:08:57 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TechSgt

Hard_Sarge;

Under Beta;

We've have been talking about the R-C-M Wellingtons. The bombers have been fine.

Somehow, we have all gotten a little off-course.

TS

BTW: BtR-Beta under 7 seems OK.



I understand the question

if something is wrong with the Welli Elint, then something is wrong with the bomber model also

good, it ran great on my Vista 64bit Laptop

< Message edited by Hard Sarge -- 11/18/2009 2:15:01 PM >

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RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? - 11/18/2009 2:16:44 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		Welli from BTR




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Post #: 29
RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? - 11/18/2009 2:17:29 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		Welli from Gold




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