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RE: Nomonhan Redux: Seydlitz (Japan) vs. MBatch729 (Allies)

 
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RE: Nomonhan Redux: Seydlitz (Japan) vs. MBatch729 (All... - 11/15/2009 9:05:33 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline
there needs to b a balance in the game as there was in the war between menuverability and speed armamaents

(in reply to seydlitz_slith)
Post #: 961
RE: Nomonhan Redux: Seydlitz (Japan) vs. MBatch729 (All... - 11/15/2009 9:40:59 PM   
Mac Linehan

 

Posts: 1484
Joined: 12/19/2004
From: Denver Colorado
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: seydlitz


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mac Linehan

Hi, seydlitz -

Outstanding AAR and game; a very radical and interesting approach, I am enjoying every post. I would like to emulate your use of paratroops in the Philippines and have located the 1st Raiding Rgt in Kagoshima. Do you remember where the other Para units are? I have checked the in game (Scn 1) ground unit listing, but no go.

Thanks for your assistance,

Mac


I believe that Jonathan is correct. If I remember, you have 1st Raiding Regiment in Kagoshima, 3rd & 4th SNLF on Takao. Don't quote me, but I believe that the other two are SNLF units. Find them in the unit list and you will see the parachute emblem. In January you get the 2nd Raiding Regiment.


Jonathan and seydlitz -

I was focused on IJA units and missed the two SNLF. Thank your for your assistance.

Mac


_____________________________

LAV-25 2147

(in reply to seydlitz_slith)
Post #: 962
RE: Nomonhan Redux: Seydlitz (Japan) vs. MBatch729 (All... - 11/16/2009 5:36:13 AM   
CaptBeefheart


Posts: 2301
Joined: 7/4/2003
From: Seoul, Korea
Status: offline
This is truly an incredible game, but some things could be improved in the air-to-air sphere. One slight example (I don't want to hijack this excellent AAR): USN pilots liked the F4F-3 a lot better than the F4F-4, although it had 4 ea. vs. 6 ea. 50-cals. The pilots thought four was enough vs. the thin-skinned Zero and the number of total rounds was the same in both aircraft--so the F4F-3 offered 50% more trigger time. In game terms, it's simply 12 vs. 18 in gun ratings between the two aircraft, which does not reflect the true story.

Now back to your regularly scheduled program...

Cheers,
CC

_____________________________

Beer, because barley makes lousy bread.

(in reply to Mac Linehan)
Post #: 963
RE: Nomonhan Redux: Seydlitz (Japan) vs. MBatch729 (All... - 11/16/2009 6:57:26 AM   
krupp_88mm


Posts: 406
Joined: 10/13/2008
Status: offline
quote:

I could not agree with you more. The I-15 and I-153 perform against the Japanese fighters including the zero better than any of the more modern fighters that I have encountered. I think that this is because of the ludicrous MVR rating that they have been assigned. It is too far over the top and is unrealistic.


I disagree i think the maneuver rating should be ludicrous the I-153 can out turn anything and everything. out turn zeros with ease.. i think it could pull a 360 in about a little over 2 seconds at high or low speed.. the disadvantages it would face is an open cockpit.. which would be very stressful on the pilot and a very very low top speed.. something in the air combat model must be busted

Finnish B-239 were able to chew the I-153 to pieces something like 30-1.. and the B-239 is really just a Buffalo by another name

< Message edited by krupp_88mm -- 11/16/2009 7:03:36 AM >

(in reply to seydlitz_slith)
Post #: 964
RE: Nomonhan Redux: Seydlitz (Japan) vs. MBatch729 (All... - 11/16/2009 9:27:07 AM   
FatR

 

Posts: 2522
Joined: 10/23/2009
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: krupp_88mm

I disagree i think the maneuver rating should be ludicrous the I-153 can out turn anything and everything. out turn zeros with ease.. i think it could pull a 360 in about a little over 2 seconds at high or low speed.. the disadvantages it would face is an open cockpit.. which would be very stressful on the pilot and a very very low top speed.. something in the air combat model must be busted

Finnish B-239 were able to chew the I-153 to pieces something like 30-1.. and the B-239 is really just a Buffalo by another name

I have one of, if not the most exhaustive Russian publications about the air war over Khalkin Gol right before me (http://militera.lib.ru/h/kondratyev_v/10.html if anyone cares), and it says that reports by even those Russian pilots, who flew I-15, mention excellent maneurability of Ki-27, so these planes were at least equals in maneurability. I-153 decidedly was worse, due to being heavier than I-15 and having less pleasant flight characteristics in general.

P.S. As about Finns, the main recipe for their victories seem to be "overclaim harder than usual". Being on the front Soviets didn't care about for 2,5 years also helped.

(in reply to krupp_88mm)
Post #: 965
RE: Nomonhan Redux: Seydlitz (Japan) vs. MBatch729 (All... - 11/17/2009 3:11:29 AM   
seydlitz_slith


Posts: 2036
Joined: 6/16/2002
From: Danville, IL
Status: offline
Turn 70 14 Feb 1942

The Soviets tried doggedly to get to my carriers again this turn, but all attempts failed. The KB is now sailing for Kure as they have expended all bombs and the strike aircraft will not fly empty.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack near Nakhodka at 113,49

Japanese Ships
SC CHa-27

Allied Ships
SS L-8



L-8 diving deep .......
SC CHa-27 fails to find sub, continues to search......
SC CHa-27 fails to find sub, continues to search......
SC CHa-27 fails to find sub, continues to search......
SC CHa-27 fails to find sub, continues to search......
SC CHa-27 fails to find sub, continues to search......
Escort abandons search for sub...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack near San Clemente Island at 225,79

Japanese Ships
SS I-21

Allied Ships
DD Walke
DD O'Brien



I-21 diving deep .......
DD Walke fails to find sub and abandons search...
DD O'Brien fails to find sub, continues to search......
DD O'Brien fails to find sub, continues to search......
DD O'Brien attacking submerged sub .......
DD O'Brien fails to find sub, continues to search......
DD O'Brien fails to find sub, continues to search......
Escort abandons search for sub...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submarine attack near Rashin at 110,47

Japanese Ships
xAK Kasagi Maru

Allied Ships
SS ShCh-106



xAK Kasagi Maru is sighted by SS ShCh-106...
SS ShCh-106 launches 4 torpedoes at xAK Kasagi Maru...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack near Nakhodka at 113,49

Japanese Ships
DD Hatsukaze
DD Nenohi
DD Hatsuharu

Allied Ships
SS ShCh-122, hits 1



DD Nenohi fails to find sub and abandons search...
DD Hatsuharu fails to find sub, continues to search......
DD Hatsuharu attacking submerged sub .......
DD Hatsuharu fails to find sub, continues to search......
DD Hatsuharu fails to find sub, continues to search......
DD Hatsuharu fails to find sub, continues to search......
DD Hatsuharu fails to find sub, continues to search......
Escort abandons search for sub...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
D3A1 Val reports conning tower at 114, 50 near Olga
D3A1 Val reports submarine wake at 113, 51 near Olga
E8N2 Dave sighting report: 1 Allied ship at 131,42 near Okha, speed 12, Moving Northwest
F1M2 Pete reports shape below surface at 113, 51 near Olga
E13A1 Jake reports periscope wake at 113, 49 near Nakhodka
F1M2 Pete reports object under water at 109, 56 near Oki Shoto
H6K4 Mavis reports object under water at 113, 51 near Olga
D3A1 Val reports possible submarine at 113, 51 near Olga
D3A1 Val reports periscope wake at 113, 51 near Olga
a L Type class SS is reported HIT
D3A1 Val reports turbulence in water at 113, 49 near Nakhodka
D3A1 Val reports diving submarine at 115, 48 near Olga
an Allied SS is reported HIT
D3A1 Val reports suspected submarine at 113, 49 near Nakhodka





Attachment (1)

(in reply to FatR)
Post #: 966
RE: Nomonhan Redux: Seydlitz (Japan) vs. MBatch729 (All... - 11/17/2009 3:16:24 AM   
seydlitz_slith


Posts: 2036
Joined: 6/16/2002
From: Danville, IL
Status: offline
Other than my incessant bombing of Vladivostok and Voroshilov, I continued the artillery bombardment at Voroshilov.
Again my opponent did not fire back. Many of my reserve units are now down to about 15 disruption and 40 fatigue. Since he is not firing back I will let them get totally undisrupted before switching back to combat mode. The additional delay will only help me recover more disabled squads in the units.

Mark told me that his drop off in AV in the hex is due to disruption alone. He claims to have plenty of supply there.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Voroshilov (112,45)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 4810 troops, 406 guns, 280 vehicles, Assault Value = 2131

Defending force 66090 troops, 1540 guns, 483 vehicles, Assault Value = 1669

Japanese ground losses:
Guns lost 5 (1 destroyed, 4 disabled)
Vehicles lost 9 (5 destroyed, 4 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
1571 casualties reported
Squads: 40 destroyed, 41 disabled
Non Combat: 97 destroyed, 67 disabled
Engineers: 5 destroyed, 13 disabled
Guns lost 46 (28 destroyed, 18 disabled)
Vehicles lost 58 (37 destroyed, 21 disabled)


(in reply to seydlitz_slith)
Post #: 967
RE: Nomonhan Redux: Seydlitz (Japan) vs. MBatch729 (All... - 11/17/2009 8:46:19 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
seydlitz how do you handle your ASW forces on long time operations?
do you check for ships out of ASW ammo and send them back to base, do you have a replenishment fleet or do you just ignore
them?

_____________________________


(in reply to seydlitz_slith)
Post #: 968
RE: Nomonhan Redux: Seydlitz (Japan) vs. MBatch729 (All... - 11/17/2009 12:34:20 PM   
seydlitz_slith


Posts: 2036
Joined: 6/16/2002
From: Danville, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

seydlitz how do you handle your ASW forces on long time operations?
do you check for ships out of ASW ammo and send them back to base, do you have a replenishment fleet or do you just ignore
them?

I will refuel them at sea if they have plenty of ammo. Otherwise I send them back to port.

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 969
RE: Nomonhan Redux: Seydlitz (Japan) vs. MBatch729 (All... - 11/18/2009 4:29:37 AM   
TheElf


Posts: 3870
Joined: 5/14/2003
From: Pax River, MD
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Cody

This is truly an incredible game, but some things could be improved in the air-to-air sphere. One slight example (I don't want to hijack this excellent AAR): USN pilots liked the F4F-3 a lot better than the F4F-4, although it had 4 ea. vs. 6 ea. 50-cals. The pilots thought four was enough vs. the thin-skinned Zero and the number of total rounds was the same in both aircraft--so the F4F-3 offered 50% more trigger time. In game terms, it's simply 12 vs. 18 in gun ratings between the two aircraft, which does not reflect the true story.

Now back to your regularly scheduled program...

Cheers,
CC

It's not just 12 vs. 18, the only real advantage to the F4F-3's armament was in fact the longer firing time, as you state, and as early war USN aviators preferred. Unfortunately ammo limits are not derived from any tangible stat that can found in the database, they are a combination of several abstracted factors. The bottom line is that WitP never tracked it in the first place, so we are the same as Stock in that regard.

The tale is told is in the Topspeed and MVR values. The F4F-4 was significantly heavier than the -3 owing to the extra guns, pilot protection and folding wings, among other things...this is reflected in a base MVR of 22 vice 20 for the F4F-4, and a topspeed advantage of 329 mph vs 318. Together these more than add to the cumulative superiority you lament as missing.

_____________________________

IN PERPETUUM SINGULARIS SEDES



(in reply to CaptBeefheart)
Post #: 970
RE: Nomonhan Redux: Seydlitz (Japan) vs. MBatch729 (All... - 11/18/2009 4:32:38 AM   
TheElf


Posts: 3870
Joined: 5/14/2003
From: Pax River, MD
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

there needs to b a balance in the game as there was in the war between menuverability and speed armamaents


This is a vague comment. Can you be more specific?

_____________________________

IN PERPETUUM SINGULARIS SEDES



(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 971
RE: Nomonhan Redux: Seydlitz (Japan) vs. MBatch729 (All... - 11/18/2009 4:50:28 AM   
TheElf


Posts: 3870
Joined: 5/14/2003
From: Pax River, MD
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatR

quote:

ORIGINAL: seydlitz
The air war over Russian territory is not going as well as planned by a longshot. Much of this seems to have to do with the weather, which has been terrible just about every turn. The weather prevents a high percentage of missions from being flown and also serves to protect the enemy biplanes when I try to sweep them. Zero fighters do well during sweeps but seem to be sitting ducks when escorting bombers. I feel like I should be mowing these biplanes down with even Nates, but in reality they are much harder to fight than even the AVG P-40s. I don't know why.

Also a small commentary: I-15 and I-153 have MVR 53 (highest in the game, AFAIK). And I-153 does not even suffer MVR cutoff until 16 thousands feet, so at higher altidute bands its advantage over Ki-27 is even greater. I, personally, think that, to match history, their MVR must be cut by about 10, as I-15, if anything, was outmaneuvered by Ki-27, and I-153 is its powered-up and heavier successor. Also, every gun on old Russian fighters is "Center-line", as opposed to "Front", which, I believe, provides accuracy advantage (technically this is a correct description, but in reality these planese weren't that good as gun platforms).


In Kalinin Gol/Nomonhan incident the Russians and the Japanese were more evenly matched than the histories from each side would lead you to believe. The Russians were no push overs and the Japanese tendency to overclaim did not start after Pearl Harbor. The I-15 and I-153 are biplanes and as a result their MVR ratings benefit from a LARGE square foot advantage over monoplanes. MVR uses Wing Area as one many factors.

Where the Zero and even the Nate have an advantage is in Topspeed. Don't underestimate this. This stat is heavily in favor of both the Zeke and Nate over the two I-'s. But also don't underestimate the power of numerical superiority. I can't seem to find any CRs you've posted that would provide a sense of the types of engagements you have had. I.e. whether numerical superiority was/is a factor. I would be happy to comment if you could point me to a couple.

I do note from one of your posts the MOST destroyed A/c in Air to Air is the I-153 over the Nate by about 60%. The Zero, which is your most widely deployed frontline Naval Fighter doesn't seem to be suffering too badly given its ubiquitous nature, and the Oscar Ic seems to doing well. But this obviously isn't the whole story.

_____________________________

IN PERPETUUM SINGULARIS SEDES



(in reply to FatR)
Post #: 972
RE: Nomonhan Redux: Seydlitz (Japan) vs. MBatch729 (All... - 11/18/2009 8:13:49 AM   
CaptBeefheart


Posts: 2301
Joined: 7/4/2003
From: Seoul, Korea
Status: offline
Thanks for the response, Elf. I'm not trying to disparage the hard work you and others have put into this fine game.

_____________________________

Beer, because barley makes lousy bread.

(in reply to TheElf)
Post #: 973
RE: Nomonhan Redux: Seydlitz (Japan) vs. MBatch729 (All... - 11/19/2009 1:33:22 AM   
medicff

 

Posts: 710
Joined: 9/11/2004
From: WPB, Florida
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seydlitz

Other than my incessant bombing of Vladivostok and Voroshilov, I continued the artillery bombardment at Voroshilov.
Again my opponent did not fire back. Many of my reserve units are now down to about 15 disruption and 40 fatigue. Since he is not firing back I will let them get totally undisrupted before switching back to combat mode. The additional delay will only help me recover more disabled squads in the units.

Mark told me that his drop off in AV in the hex is due to disruption alone. He claims to have plenty of supply there.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Voroshilov (112,45)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 4810 troops, 406 guns, 280 vehicles, Assault Value = 2131

Defending force 66090 troops, 1540 guns, 483 vehicles, Assault Value = 1669

Japanese ground losses:
Guns lost 5 (1 destroyed, 4 disabled)
Vehicles lost 9 (5 destroyed, 4 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
1571 casualties reported
Squads: 40 destroyed, 41 disabled
Non Combat: 97 destroyed, 67 disabled
Engineers: 5 destroyed, 13 disabled
Guns lost 46 (28 destroyed, 18 disabled)
Vehicles lost 58 (37 destroyed, 21 disabled)




This news definitely points to your play style and rotation of units to be a key factor. I was leaning to supply but your AAR has really proved a crucial factor in the land war of resting/rotating units.

Thanks for such an interesting and informative AAR.

With all your attention to the Soviet front, how do you feel your timeline is for other areas and what are your plans for expansion/fortification lines?

Pat

(in reply to seydlitz_slith)
Post #: 974
RE: Nomonhan Redux: Seydlitz (Japan) vs. MBatch729 (All... - 11/19/2009 2:02:01 AM   
seydlitz_slith


Posts: 2036
Joined: 6/16/2002
From: Danville, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf


Where the Zero and even the Nate have an advantage is in Topspeed. Don't underestimate this. This stat is heavily in favor of both the Zeke and Nate over the two I-'s. But also don't underestimate the power of numerical superiority. I can't seem to find any CRs you've posted that would provide a sense of the types of engagements you have had. I.e. whether numerical superiority was/is a factor. I would be happy to comment if you could point me to a couple.



Here are some examples for you.

From my 2/15/42 turn. The zero unit is my best zero unit. The unit was set to sweep with 40% LRCAP and 60% REST to ensure that fatigue was not a problem on any of the turns.

Morning Air attack on 23rd Division, at 108,27

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 13 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 5



Allied aircraft
I-153 x 9
DB-3M x 11


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed (shot down by the I-153s)

Allied aircraft losses
DB-3M: 1 damaged



Aircraft Attacking:
11 x DB-3M bombing from 8000 feet *
Ground Attack: 5 x 100 kg GP Bomb
7 x I-153 sweeping at 15000 feet

CAP engaged:
Tainan Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead

Next is same units engaging on the 2/14/42 turn
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 61st Tank Division, at 108,27

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 11 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 16



Allied aircraft
I-153 x 2


No Japanese losses

No Allied losses



Aircraft Attacking:
9 x A6M2 Zero sweeping at 10000 feet

CAP engaged:
9 IAP-PVO with I-153 (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Raid is overhead

2/13/42 turn
Different unit here, but also one of my better units.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Alexandrovsk , at 126,41

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 39 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 17



Allied aircraft
I-153 x 1


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
I-153: 1 destroyed



Aircraft Attacking:
17 x A6M2 Zero sweeping at 10000 feet

CAP engaged:
71 SAP IAE with I-153 (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on 96th NKVD Regiment, at 109,25

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 17 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 13
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 15



Allied aircraft
I-153 x 3


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
I-153: 1 destroyed



Aircraft Attacking:
3 x A6M2 Zero sweeping at 10000 feet

CAP engaged:
28 SAD/51 IAP with I-153 (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(3 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Raid is overhead

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on 96th NKVD Regiment, at 109,25

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 26 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 7
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 19



Allied aircraft
I-153 x 7


No Japanese losses

No Allied losses



Aircraft Attacking:
3 x Ki-43-Ic Oscar sweeping at 9000 feet

CAP engaged:
28 SAD/51 IAP with I-153 (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(7 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 40 minutes

Next most recent Air to air was 2/10/42:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Alexandrovsk , at 126,41

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 27 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 18



Allied aircraft
I-153 x 1


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
I-153: 1 destroyed



Aircraft Attacking:
18 x A6M2 Zero sweeping at 10000 feet

CAP engaged:
71 SAP IAE with I-153 (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 1 minutes


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Okha , at 128,37

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 14



Allied aircraft
I-15bis x 4
SB-2 x 3


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
I-15bis: 1 destroyed
SB-2: 1 destroyed



CAP engaged:
3rd Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (4 airborne, 10 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 6 minutes


These we ALL of the air to air combats during this time period between Japanese and Soviet fighters. In the next post, I will pull some of the combat reports from the earlier stages of the conflict where there were more fighters in the air on the Soviet side.

I would also like to mention that I am very meticulous about fatigue and I do not fly fighter units on missions if they have over 16 fatigue at mission start. However, you can see from these examples that even my best zero unit (Tainain Datai) doesn't do very much against these I-153 biplanes.


(in reply to TheElf)
Post #: 975
RE: Nomonhan Redux: Seydlitz (Japan) vs. MBatch729 (All... - 11/19/2009 2:23:05 AM   
seydlitz_slith


Posts: 2036
Joined: 6/16/2002
From: Danville, IL
Status: offline
Here are some examples from early in the conflict with more aircraft. If you noticed in the examples above, I usually killed the biplane only when I had them very heavily outnumbered.

Again, I will give you all combats on that date that involved fighters on both sides so that you can get a clearer picture.

First, 12/27/41...the first turn that the soviets were active:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Vladivostok , at 112,46

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 14 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 40
G3M2 Nell x 15
G4M1 Betty x 45



Allied aircraft
I-15bis x 4
I-153 x 47
I-16m24 x 30


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 3 destroyed
G3M2 Nell: 5 damaged
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed, 15 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
I-153: 3 destroyed
I-16m24: 1 destroyed
Allied Ships
xAK Svyatozar, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
SS ShCh-105, Bomb hits 1, heavy damage
xAK Karlotta, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Rekordnyi, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
SS ShCh-107, Bomb hits 1



Port hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
19 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 12000 feet
Port Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
20 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 12000 feet
Port Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
15 x G3M2 Nell bombing from 12000 feet
Port Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb
5 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 12000 feet
Port Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb

CAP engaged:
32 SAD/5 IAP with I-153 (9 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(11 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
9 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 18000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 18 minutes
3 planes vectored on to bombers
34 SAD/47 IAP with I-153 (11 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(14 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
11 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 15 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
32 SAD/48 IAP with I-153 (7 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(7 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
7 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 18000
Raid is overhead
32 SAD/75 IAP with I-15bis (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(4 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 18000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes
3 planes vectored on to bombers
10 BABr-TOF/19 IAP with I-16m24 (2 airborne, 4 on standby, 3 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 6000 and 12000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 26 minutes
7 planes vectored on to bombers
29 IAD/304 IAP with I-16m24 (1 airborne, 3 on standby, 3 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 36 minutes
3 planes vectored on to bombers
70 IAD/305 IAP with I-16m24 (1 airborne, 4 on standby, 3 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 14000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 36 minutes
7 planes vectored on to bombers
70 IAD/306 IAP with I-153 (1 airborne, 3 on standby, 3 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 18000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 30 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
29 IAD/307 IAP with I-153 (1 airborne, 4 on standby, 3 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 18000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 37 minutes
5 planes vectored on to bombers
70 IAD/308 IAP with I-16m24 (2 airborne, 3 on standby, 2 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 11000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 29 minutes
5 planes vectored on to bombers

Training flight from 70 IAD/308 IAP has been caught up in attack

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Sakhalinskaya Rifle Brigade, at 128,37 (Okha)

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 36 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 13
B5N2 Kate x 110
D3A1 Val x 113



Allied aircraft
I-153 x 1


Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 1 damaged
D3A1 Val: 1 destroyed, 12 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
I-153: 1 destroyed


Allied ground losses:
82 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 8 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Aircraft Attacking:
16 x D3A1 Val diving from 10000'
Ground Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
20 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb
21 x D3A1 Val diving from 10000'
Ground Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
20 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb
5 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
15 x D3A1 Val diving from 10000'
Ground Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
12 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb
15 x D3A1 Val diving from 10000'
Ground Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
15 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb
23 x D3A1 Val diving from 10000'
Ground Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
23 x D3A1 Val diving from 10000'
Ground Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
19 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb
19 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb
4 x A6M2 Zero sweeping at 12000 feet

CAP engaged:
8 OIAZ-PVO with I-153 (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(1 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Voroshilov , at 112,45

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 56 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-27b Nate x 36
Ki-36 Ida x 16



Allied aircraft
I-15bis x 9
I-153 x 18


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-27b Nate: 10 destroyed
Ki-36 Ida: 2 destroyed, 3 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
DB-3T: 1 destroyed on ground



Runway hits 10

Aircraft Attacking:
11 x Ki-36 Ida bombing from 11000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 30 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
32 SAD/75 IAP with I-15bis (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 18000 , scrambling fighters between 14000 and 18000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 30 minutes
3 planes vectored on to bombers
32 SAD/5 IAP with I-153 (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 3 scrambling)
Group patrol altitude is 18000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 16000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 26 minutes
32 SAD/48 IAP with I-153 (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
Group patrol altitude is 18000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 18000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 26 minutes


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Hailar , at 107,30

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-27b Nate x 6



Allied aircraft
I-153 x 16
SB-2 x 22


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-27b Nate: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
I-153: 1 destroyed



Airbase hits 1
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 5

Aircraft Attacking:
22 x SB-2 bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 6 x 100 kg GP Bomb
3 x I-153 sweeping at 15000 feet *

CAP engaged:
9th Sentai with Ki-27b Nate (2 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 18000 , scrambling fighters between 14000 and 18000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 9 minutes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Hailar , at 107,30

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 23 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-27b Nate x 5



Allied aircraft
I-153 x 14
SB-2 x 4


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-27b Nate: 1 damaged
Ki-36 Ida: 1 destroyed on ground

Allied aircraft losses
SB-2: 3 damaged



Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x SB-2 bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 6 x 100 kg GP Bomb
12 x I-153 sweeping at 15000 feet *

CAP engaged:
9th Sentai with Ki-27b Nate (1 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 18000 , scrambling fighters to 18000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 9 minutes


---------------------------------------
12/28/41 Day 2 of the invasion
---------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Rybolov , at 113,44

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 33,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-27b Nate x 9



Allied aircraft
I-153 x 13


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-27b Nate: 1 destroyed




CAP engaged:
34 SAD/47 IAP with I-153 (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
9 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 20000 and 31000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 44 minutes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Hailar , at 107,30

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 23 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-27b Nate x 16



Allied aircraft
I-153 x 14
SB-2 x 7


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-36 Ida: 1 destroyed on ground

Allied aircraft losses
SB-2: 2 damaged



Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 8

Aircraft Attacking:
7 x SB-2 bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 6 x 100 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
9th Sentai with Ki-27b Nate (1 airborne, 4 on standby, 11 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 18000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 18000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 36 minutes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Voroshilov , at 112,45

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid spotted at 15 NM, estimated altitude 29,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-27b Nate x 17



Allied aircraft
I-15bis x 16
I-153 x 36


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-27b Nate: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
I-153: 1 destroyed



CAP engaged:
32 SAD/5 IAP with I-153 (3 airborne, 10 on standby, 6 scrambling)
13 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 18000 , scrambling fighters to 18000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes
32 SAD/48 IAP with I-153 (0 airborne, 10 on standby, 0 scrambling)
10 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 18000 , scrambling fighters to 18000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 43 minutes
32 SAD/75 IAP with I-15bis (2 airborne, 11 on standby, 0 scrambling)
13 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 18000 , scrambling fighters to 18000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 38 minutes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Hailar , at 107,30

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 10 NM, estimated altitude 19,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-27b Nate x 11



Allied aircraft
I-153 x 11
SB-2 x 13


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
SB-2: 1 damaged



Aircraft Attacking:
13 x SB-2 bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 6 x 100 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
9th Sentai with Ki-27b Nate (1 airborne, 2 on standby, 8 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 18000 , scrambling fighters between 12000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 33 minutes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Voroshilov , at 112,45

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 10 NM, estimated altitude 31,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-27b Nate x 24



Allied aircraft
I-15bis x 16
I-153 x 33


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-27b Nate: 4 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
I-15bis: 1 destroyed



CAP engaged:
32 SAD/5 IAP with I-153 (7 airborne, 0 on standby, 6 scrambling)
7 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 8 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 18000 , scrambling fighters between 15000 and 25000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 9 minutes
32 SAD/48 IAP with I-153 (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 6 being recalled, 6 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 18000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 44 minutes
32 SAD/75 IAP with I-15bis (7 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
7 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 6 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 18000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 38 minutes



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Voroshilov , at 112,45

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 29 NM, estimated altitude 28,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-27b Nate x 17



Allied aircraft
I-15bis x 10
I-153 x 17


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-27b Nate: 1 destroyed




CAP engaged:
32 SAD/5 IAP with I-153 (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 6 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 18000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 42 minutes
32 SAD/48 IAP with I-153 (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 5 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 18000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 44 minutes
32 SAD/75 IAP with I-15bis (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 18000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 36 minutes
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12/29/41 Day 3 of invasion ****Note use of zero sweeps in combat here*****
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Vladivostok , at 112,46

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 39 NM, estimated altitude 27,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 33



Allied aircraft
I-153 x 15
I-16m24 x 34


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
I-153: 2 destroyed
I-16m24: 8 destroyed



Aircraft Attacking:
21 x A6M2 Zero sweeping at 27000 feet

CAP engaged:
10 BABr-TOF/19 IAP with I-16m24 (0 airborne, 5 on standby, 4 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
29 IAD/304 IAP with I-16m24 (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 3 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 34 minutes
70 IAD/305 IAP with I-16m24 (0 airborne, 5 on standby, 4 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 33 minutes
70 IAD/306 IAP with I-153 (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 3 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes
29 IAD/307 IAP with I-153 (0 airborne, 5 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 38 minutes
70 IAD/308 IAP with I-16m24 (1 airborne, 3 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 10000.
Raid is overhead



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Vladivostok , at 112,46

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 36 NM, estimated altitude 31,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 6



Allied aircraft
I-153 x 1
I-16m24 x 2


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
I-153: 1 destroyed



Aircraft Attacking:
5 x A6M2 Zero sweeping at 26000 feet

CAP engaged:
10 BABr-TOF/19 IAP with I-16m24 (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 37 minutes
70 IAD/305 IAP with I-16m24 (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead
70 IAD/306 IAP with I-153 (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 6 minutes


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Rybolov , at 113,44

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 31,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-27b Nate x 5



Allied aircraft
I-153 x 13


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-27b Nate: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
I-153: 1 destroyed



CAP engaged:
34 SAD/47 IAP with I-153 (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
9 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters to 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 5 minutes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Hailar , at 107,30

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 19 NM, estimated altitude 19,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-27b Nate x 15



Allied aircraft
I-153 x 12
SB-2 x 19


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-27b Nate: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
SB-2: 1 damaged



Runway hits 5

Aircraft Attacking:
19 x SB-2 bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 6 x 100 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
9th Sentai with Ki-27b Nate (1 airborne, 4 on standby, 10 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 18000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 18000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 35 minutes
6 planes vectored on to bombers



----------------------------------------------------
12/30/41 Day 4 of invasion
----------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Voroshilov , at 112,45

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 42 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 34
G3M2 Nell x 26
G4M1 Betty x 25



Allied aircraft
I-15bis x 29
I-153 x 48


Japanese aircraft losses
G3M2 Nell: 4 destroyed, 11 damaged
G4M1 Betty: 2 destroyed, 8 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
I-15bis: 2 destroyed
I-153: 2 destroyed
DB-3T: 1 destroyed on ground


Allied ground losses:
4 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Airbase hits 9
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 12
Aircraft Attacking:
22 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 11000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
19 x G3M2 Nell bombing from 11000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
32 SAD/5 IAP with I-153 (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 8 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 18000 , scrambling fighters between 6000 and 18000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 33 minutes
21 planes vectored on to bombers
32 SAD/48 IAP with I-153 (5 airborne, 10 on standby, 7 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 18000 , scrambling fighters between 6000 and 18000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 33 minutes
14 planes vectored on to bombers
32 SAD/75 IAP with I-15bis (0 airborne, 14 on standby, 9 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 18000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 18000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 39 minutes
20 planes vectored on to bombers
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Voroshilov , at 112,45

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 40 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21-Ic Sally x 14
Ki-27b Nate x 28



Allied aircraft
I-15bis x 20
I-153 x 26


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21-Ic Sally: 1 destroyed
Ki-27b Nate: 3 destroyed




CAP engaged:
32 SAD/5 IAP with I-153 (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 10 being recalled, 7 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 18000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 39 minutes
7 planes vectored on to bombers
32 SAD/48 IAP with I-153 (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 18000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 39 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
32 SAD/75 IAP with I-15bis (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 5 being recalled, 10 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 18000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 43 minutes
14 planes vectored on to bombers

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on 4th Border Defense Fortress, at 116,42 (Kotou)

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid spotted at 22 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 15



Allied aircraft
I-15bis x 13
SB-2 x 13


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
I-15bis: 3 destroyed
SB-2: 5 destroyed, 5 damaged



Aircraft Attacking:
6 x SB-2 bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 6 x 100 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
Tainan Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (15 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
15 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 16000
Raid is overhead

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Bikin , at 117,42

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 200 NM, estimated altitude 22,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 75 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 10
B5N2 Kate x 102
D3A1 Val x 67



Allied aircraft
I-15bis x 28
I-16m24 x 63
Mig-3 x 9


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed
B5N2 Kate: 21 destroyed, 31 damaged
D3A1 Val: 8 destroyed, 24 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
I-15bis: 1 destroyed
I-16m24: 3 destroyed
SB-2: 1 destroyed on ground



Airbase hits 9
Airbase supply hits 3
Runway hits 41

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x D3A1 Val diving from 10000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
14 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 19000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb
9 x D3A1 Val diving from 10000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
13 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 19000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb
7 x D3A1 Val diving from 10000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
12 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 19000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb
8 x D3A1 Val diving from 10000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
9 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 19000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
8 x D3A1 Val diving from 10000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
14 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 19000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb
13 x D3A1 Val diving from 10000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
10 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 19000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
7 IABr-TOF/6 IAP with I-15bis (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(14 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 9 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 69 minutes
9 planes vectored on to bombers
18 IAP-PVO with Mig-3 (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(9 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 6 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 70 minutes
9 planes vectored on to bombers
7 IABr-TOF/39 IAP with I-15bis (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(14 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 11 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 67 minutes
14 planes vectored on to bombers
69 SAD/300 IAP with I-16m24 (2 airborne, 11 on standby, 16 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 13000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 37 minutes
20 planes vectored on to bombers
69 SAD/301 IAP with I-16m24 (3 airborne, 11 on standby, 15 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 23000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 70 minutes
22 planes vectored on to bombers


(in reply to seydlitz_slith)
Post #: 976
RE: Nomonhan Redux: Seydlitz (Japan) vs. MBatch729 (All... - 11/19/2009 2:26:04 AM   
seydlitz_slith


Posts: 2036
Joined: 6/16/2002
From: Danville, IL
Status: offline
I could post several of the January turns if you need to see them, but this should be enough to give you an idea that the I-153 vs zero or Oscar does not lead to a biplane slaughter.

Let me know if you want any other turns posted.

(in reply to seydlitz_slith)
Post #: 977
RE: Nomonhan Redux: Seydlitz (Japan) vs. MBatch729 (All... - 11/19/2009 2:36:03 AM   
seydlitz_slith


Posts: 2036
Joined: 6/16/2002
From: Danville, IL
Status: offline
15 Feb 1942

The turn started with more sub action:

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Feb 15, 42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack near Olga at 113,51

Japanese Ships
PB Shinko Maru #2
DD Shigure
PB Yoshida Maru

Allied Ships
SS ShCh-114



ShCh-114 diving deep .......
DD Shigure fails to find sub and abandons search...
PB Yoshida Maru fails to find sub, continues to search......
PB Yoshida Maru fails to find sub, continues to search......
PB Yoshida Maru fails to find sub, continues to search......
PB Yoshida Maru fails to find sub, continues to search......
PB Yoshida Maru fails to find sub, continues to search......
PB Yoshida Maru fails to find sub, continues to search......
Escort abandons search for sub...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submarine attack near Rashin at 110,47

Japanese Ships
xAK Sensan Maru, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

Allied Ships
SS ShCh-139



xAK Sensan Maru is sighted by SS ShCh-139...
SS ShCh-139 launches 4 torpedoes at xAK Sensan Maru...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack near Shikuka at 127,45

Japanese Ships
CL Kuma
AMC Asaka Maru
DMS W-19
DMS W-10
xAP Kokuryu Maru
xAP Hakone Maru
xAK Daisin Maru
xAK Nagara Maru
DD Numakaze
DD Nokaze

Allied Ships
SS ShCh-117



DD Numakaze fails to find sub and abandons search...
DD Nokaze fails to find sub, continues to search......
DD Nokaze fails to find sub, continues to search......
DD Nokaze fails to find sub, continues to search......
DD Nokaze fails to find sub, continues to search......
DD Nokaze attacking submerged sub .......
DD Nokaze cannot establish contact with SS ShCh-117...
DD Nokaze fails to find sub, continues to search......
Escort abandons search for sub...

His seaplanes also sunk one of my sub chasers in the sea of Japan.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Nakhodka at 113,49

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid spotted at 44 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 24 minutes


Allied aircraft
MBR-2 x 2


No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
SC CHa-15, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
SC CHa-27



Aircraft Attacking:
2 x MBR-2 bombing from 6000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 100 kg SAP Bomb







Attachment (1)

(in reply to seydlitz_slith)
Post #: 978
RE: Nomonhan Redux: Seydlitz (Japan) vs. MBatch729 (All... - 11/19/2009 2:39:20 AM   
seydlitz_slith


Posts: 2036
Joined: 6/16/2002
From: Danville, IL
Status: offline
ships sunk for the turn:





Attachment (1)

(in reply to seydlitz_slith)
Post #: 979
RE: Nomonhan Redux: Seydlitz (Japan) vs. MBatch729 (All... - 11/19/2009 2:45:11 AM   
seydlitz_slith


Posts: 2036
Joined: 6/16/2002
From: Danville, IL
Status: offline
Land combat wasn't that favorable either.

I attempted to kick him back out of Spassk-Dalniy before he could attack. I found out that he had a larger LCU and not only did I fail, but he attacked and kicked me out of the hex....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Spassk-Dalniy (114,44)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 2508 troops, 0 guns, 281 vehicles, Assault Value = 142

Defending force 10001 troops, 147 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 329

Japanese adjusted assault: 196

Allied adjusted defense: 110

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: leaders(+), preparation(-), experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
Vehicles lost 46 (11 destroyed, 35 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
728 casualties reported
Squads: 5 destroyed, 45 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 21 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Guns lost 2 (0 destroyed, 2 disabled)


Assaulting units:...
5th Tank Regiment...
3rd Tank Regiment...
9th Tank Regiment...
...
Defending units:...
66th Rifle Division...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Spassk-Dalniy (114,44)

Allied Shock attack

Attacking force 9409 troops, 147 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 288

Defending force 1812 troops, 0 guns, 272 vehicles, Assault Value = 126

Allied adjusted assault: 192

Japanese adjusted defense: 46

Allied assault odds: 4 to 1 (fort level 0)

Allied forces CAPTURE Spassk-Dalniy !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: leaders(+), preparation(-), experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+), fatigue(-)

Japanese ground losses:
Vehicles lost 240 (238 destroyed, 2 disabled)
Units retreated 3


Allied ground losses:
24 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Defeated Japanese Units Retreating!

Assaulting units:...
66th Rifle Division...
...
Defending units:...
3rd Tank Regiment...
5th Tank Regiment...
9th Tank Regiment...


At Voroshilov we again bombarded, but this time the Soviet units returned fire.....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Voroshilov (112,45)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 4863 troops, 410 guns, 275 vehicles, Assault Value = 2155

Defending force 63959 troops, 1520 guns, 419 vehicles, Assault Value = 1637

Japanese ground losses:
Guns lost 18 (9 destroyed, 9 disabled)
Vehicles lost 10 (8 destroyed, 2 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
2662 casualties reported
Squads: 58 destroyed, 26 disabled
Non Combat: 159 destroyed, 61 disabled
Engineers: 4 destroyed, 15 disabled
Guns lost 57 (30 destroyed, 27 disabled)
Vehicles lost 62 (51 destroyed, 11 disabled)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Voroshilov (112,45)

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 56508 troops, 1399 guns, 313 vehicles, Assault Value = 1541

Defending force 97834 troops, 1067 guns, 845 vehicles, Assault Value = 2155

Japanese ground losses:
337 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 29 destroyed, 60 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 6 disabled
Guns lost 63 (30 destroyed, 33 disabled)
Vehicles lost 50 (33 destroyed, 17 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
33 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 2 (0 destroyed, 2 disabled)





Attachment (1)

(in reply to seydlitz_slith)
Post #: 980
RE: Nomonhan Redux: Seydlitz (Japan) vs. MBatch729 (All... - 11/19/2009 11:35:09 AM   
ComradeP

 

Posts: 7192
Joined: 9/17/2009
Status: offline
The losses against the bi-planes are silly, if the bi-planes were as effective in real life as they are in this game, the Luftwaffe would've been butchered instead of some pilots getting hundreds of kills because Soviet pilots were such poor flyers and their aircraft might be nice by design, but lacked in production quality until very late in the war.

seydlitz: do those tank losses more or less mean you have to build up the units from scratch? What do you have in the area to keep the Soviets from moving west (on the map), and fight your depleted tank stack?

(in reply to seydlitz_slith)
Post #: 981
RE: Nomonhan Redux: Seydlitz (Japan) vs. MBatch729 (All... - 11/19/2009 12:42:53 PM   
seydlitz_slith


Posts: 2036
Joined: 6/16/2002
From: Danville, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

The losses against the bi-planes are silly, if the bi-planes were as effective in real life as they are in this game, the Luftwaffe would've been butchered instead of some pilots getting hundreds of kills because Soviet pilots were such poor flyers and their aircraft might be nice by design, but lacked in production quality until very late in the war.

seydlitz: do those tank losses more or less mean you have to build up the units from scratch? What do you have in the area to keep the Soviets from moving west (on the map), and fight your depleted tank stack?


Absolutely agree on the biplanes. Hopefully Elf will see the summaries.

Regarding the armor, I have replacements on so they will rebuild over a few weeks. He only has one LCU in the hex, and if he tries to move west with it the computer will route him to the wooded road hex SW of Spassk first, where I have a combined arms stack waiting. That will contain the problem for now, and I have a bunch of units on their way to land at Olga that should finish the issue shortly.

(in reply to ComradeP)
Post #: 982
RE: Nomonhan Redux: Seydlitz (Japan) vs. MBatch729 (All... - 11/19/2009 2:15:28 PM   
vlcz


Posts: 387
Joined: 8/24/2009
From: Spain
Status: offline
quote:

The losses against the bi-planes are silly, if the bi-planes were as effective in real life as they are in this game, the Luftwaffe would've been butchered instead of some pilots getting hundreds of kills because Soviet pilots were such poor flyers and their aircraft might be nice by design, but lacked in production quality until very late in the war.


The comparison is futile.

Luftwaffe pilots, tactics and personel in late 41 had more than two years of war experience, they surely could score hundreds of kills against IJA airforce too.

(in reply to ComradeP)
Post #: 983
RE: Nomonhan Redux: Seydlitz (Japan) vs. MBatch729 (All... - 11/19/2009 2:24:03 PM   
Smeulders

 

Posts: 1879
Joined: 8/9/2009
Status: offline
You actually seem pretty close to a victory around Vladivostok. What percentage of Russian forces do you think are in the cut off area ? And what are your plans if you destroy them, redeploy troops to drive the remaining Russians North or will the troops be sent somewhere else ?

(in reply to vlcz)
Post #: 984
RE: Nomonhan Redux: Seydlitz (Japan) vs. MBatch729 (All... - 11/19/2009 6:49:43 PM   
ComradeP

 

Posts: 7192
Joined: 9/17/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Regarding the armor, I have replacements on so they will rebuild over a few weeks.


OK. Based on the combat results screen showing one of your units at 0 value, I thought you might be running out of replacements. As your earlier industry screenshots showed that your vehicle pool seemed to have a decent production schedule going, I was wondering why one of the tank regiments was at 0 strength and if you could take more losses. It seems you can.

Did you see where the rifle division came from btw, or did your tanks simply run into them?

quote:

The comparison is futile.

Luftwaffe pilots, tactics and personel in late 41 had more than two years of war experience, they surely could score hundreds of kills against IJA airforce too.


Many of the Luftwaffe pilots in mid 1941 had never fought a Russian plane, and most certainly not in the plane they were flying in at the time (Bf109 E or F).

Around 140 Bf 109's were send to Spain during their civil war. Keep in mind that many of these versions had the same kind of impressive armament as the early Nate: two MG's. They knocked the Republican bi-planes out of the sky. The Germans themselves discovered that the He 51 wasn't much of a fighter.

In late 1941/early 1942, the Japanese pilots flying at the time had possibly fought Soviet aircraft during the skirmishes with the Russians, such as during Khalkin Ghol and in China.

They were still flying the same kind of aircraft, namely the Nate. Luftwaffe pilots during the Spanish Civil War were fresh out of flight school and had never fought anything before, their edge was a superior plane. The Oscar and the Zero should be clearly superior to any bi-planes, especially as their armament is superior to the early (A to D) Bf 109 models which, with inexperienced pilots, could take out Republican Soviet bi-planes.

Bi-planes are a nuisance if they fly over your airfield when you're asleep, but as long as you're in a modern monoplane, it probably isn't going to shoot you down. The bi-planes in this game seem to have AMRAAMs.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 11/19/2009 6:52:11 PM >

(in reply to Smeulders)
Post #: 985
RE: Nomonhan Redux: Seydlitz (Japan) vs. MBatch729 (All... - 11/20/2009 1:19:11 AM   
seydlitz_slith


Posts: 2036
Joined: 6/16/2002
From: Danville, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smeulders

You actually seem pretty close to a victory around Vladivostok. What percentage of Russian forces do you think are in the cut off area ? And what are your plans if you destroy them, redeploy troops to drive the remaining Russians North or will the troops be sent somewhere else ?


Most will drive north to drive the remaining Russians off the map. Some units will join other offenses but my primary purpose will be to finish off the Soviet Union. I am not playing for a victory point win, so having these units later in the war instead of sitting on a static front will be important.

(in reply to Smeulders)
Post #: 986
RE: Nomonhan Redux: Seydlitz (Japan) vs. MBatch729 (All... - 11/20/2009 1:24:52 AM   
seydlitz_slith


Posts: 2036
Joined: 6/16/2002
From: Danville, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

OK. Based on the combat results screen showing one of your units at 0 value, I thought you might be running out of replacements. As your earlier industry screenshots showed that your vehicle pool seemed to have a decent production schedule going, I was wondering why one of the tank regiments was at 0 strength and if you could take more losses. It seems you can.

Did you see where the rifle division came from btw, or did your tanks simply run into them?



I have the tanks to replace the current losses but I am very worried about the vehicle pool. I can not replace all of my motor transport losses. Even though I significantly increased vehicle production, the battles around Voroshilov have basically depleted it and I am living hand to mouth. Some vehicle pool devices are at zero and others still have some replacements made.

(in reply to ComradeP)
Post #: 987
RE: Nomonhan Redux: Seydlitz (Japan) vs. MBatch729 (All... - 11/20/2009 4:18:59 AM   
seydlitz_slith


Posts: 2036
Joined: 6/16/2002
From: Danville, IL
Status: offline
Turn 72 16 Feb 1942

How about this for the first daylight phase action of the turn.....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submarine attack near King Island at 80,172

Japanese Ships
SS I-18

Allied Ships
xAP Queen Elizabeth



SS I-18 is sighted by xAP Queen Elizabeth...
SS I-18 launches 6 torpedoes...


I am certain that Mark's heart will skip a beat when the image of the QE pops up in the sub attack screen.





Attachment (1)

(in reply to seydlitz_slith)
Post #: 988
RE: Nomonhan Redux: Seydlitz (Japan) vs. MBatch729 (All... - 11/20/2009 4:23:07 AM   
seydlitz_slith


Posts: 2036
Joined: 6/16/2002
From: Danville, IL
Status: offline
I had a couple of good biplane-zero dogfights this turn....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 14th Division, at 108,27

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 45 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11



Allied aircraft
I-153 x 9
SB-2 x 16


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
I-153: 1 destroyed
SB-2: 4 destroyed, 2 damaged



Aircraft Attacking:
5 x SB-2 bombing from 15000 feet
Ground Attack: 6 x 100 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
Tainan Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (11 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
11 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 16000
Raid is overhead



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Okha , at 128,37

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid spotted at 32 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 13



Allied aircraft
I-15bis x 2
I-153 x 2
SB-2 x 3


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
I-15bis: 1 destroyed
SB-2: 2 destroyed



CAP engaged:
3rd Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (4 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 6 minutes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on 61st Tank Division, at 108,27

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 48 NM, estimated altitude 18,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 5



Allied aircraft
I-153 x 2


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
I-153: 1 destroyed



Aircraft Attacking:
2 x A6M2 Zero sweeping at 16000 feet

CAP engaged:
28 SAD/51 IAP with I-153 (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 7 minutes







Attachment (1)

(in reply to seydlitz_slith)
Post #: 989
RE: Nomonhan Redux: Seydlitz (Japan) vs. MBatch729 (All... - 11/20/2009 4:25:43 AM   
seydlitz_slith


Posts: 2036
Joined: 6/16/2002
From: Danville, IL
Status: offline
Here are some snaps of the zero unit involved. This proves my guys are not newbies.






Attachment (1)

(in reply to seydlitz_slith)
Post #: 990
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