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Editorial: Wargaming Communities On The Web - 9/22/2001 7:39:00 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		Paul V. mentioned in another post that wargaming sites are dropping off at an alarming rate. There are currently 593 members of the wargamer forum board. There are over 4200 of us registered here. I've noticed that the advertising banners have almost disappeared on the wargamer site. Guys, this is a great central location for war & strategy games, videos, scenarios, and an open forum for ALL wargames. It's in trouble, and I'll try to help, BUT I want to invite you guys to join THAT forum, too, and help to keep another wargaming site from disappearing into cyber-oblivion. The wargaming community NEEDS a variety of sites to keep the hobby alive & to see it flourish. DON'T lean on Matrix to be the "last stand" of the gaming community. Under the present situation, "wargaming" could be considered distasteful, BUT that only gives us more reason to let the lay people know that history is important, and that what we consider as a hobby is in fact practiced within the Pentagon and elsewhere, and that war plans are partially based on information derived from these "games". Wargaming is a necessary part of national war planning, as well as a hobby, so we may need to keep this in mind if public perception portrays us in a negative way. "All of us are students of history, and we play an important part in keeping the world aware of the possible outcomes of the world's military conflicts, whether they were fought in the past, present or future. Our hobby is an exercise in sharing knowledge, and WE have a responsibility as gamers to keep as many channels open as we can, and encourage others who share an interest in history to join our community." THAT could be the mission statement of the wargaming community. [ September 21, 2001: Message edited by: KG Erwin ] [ September 21, 2001: Message edited by: KG Erwin ]



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Post #: 1
- 9/22/2001 8:18:00 AM   
Paul Vebber


Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline 		The "industry" that sprang up around web advertising has imploded. Revenue from web ads has gone effectively to zero. We are surviving by using some of the income from MegaCampaign sales (Which have been picking up lately - KEEP IT COMING FOLKS!!!) to PAY (YEs it costs a fair amount of money to operate the servers and pay for the bandwidth that Matrix and MilitaryGamerOnline (which we host - but is edited by independant folks - it is not meant to be a Matrix "house organ") use. This can be thousands of dollars a month. THose of you buying Matrix products can enjoy the fact that they are directly supporting both Matrix and MGO sites. But we recognize that a single site does not a hobby make and sites like Wargamer.com, consimworld.com, CGonline, and others we provide links to both here and at MGO NEED YOUR HELP!! IF one gauges the vitality of wargaming by the posts to MGO and Wargamer, one would be calling for the Priest...Consimworld offers hope, largely because it has become the primary boardgamer gathering place on the web. In my best NPR baritone - Wargaming content on the web is NOT free, but the vast majority of you enjoy it for free, that means that the money to provide these products and services can;t go on forever if the books don;t balance. There are 2 ways to help, first by supporting wargaming sites with your purchases, or direct monetary contributions as in teh case of wargamer.com. Second and MOST IMPORTANTLY - - GET INVOLVED!!!! Over FOUR THOUSAND of you are registered here, yet only a tiny fraction get involvedin teh online discussions. THe post counts at MGO and Wargamer can only be seen by outsiders as GHOST TOWN. TUNE IN - - POST ON - - and PAY UP!!! Given the state of things it HAS NEVER IN RECENT HISTORY been A MORE IMPORTANT time to understand history and how conflict shapes it.

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http://www.matrixgames.com/images/sig-logo-02.gif

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 2
- 9/22/2001 10:17:00 AM   
David Heath


Posts: 3274
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Staten Island NY
Status: offline 		Hi Guys I been flooded with email asking me if MilitaryGamer Online will be setting up a pay to view system. First I find it funny that I am getting mail here and not over there... but in any case NO! Militarygamer costs are funded from a private source and does not need to make money from the site to keep going. So it make it clear to everyone MilitaryGamer Online will remain free and open to everyone. This includes the opponents Registry, Game Depot and other services. Even the banner ads are free. If you have a banner ad and it has to do with wargaming please let us know. All we ask is you let gamers know about MilitaryGamer Online. One of the reasons the site and services are free is that we felt the costs for many sites would force them to close or change the way they offer services. The bottom line is, if our hobby is going to expand it must have strong support. As long as the fans step up and support us we will be here and free to support you. Once again thanks for your support.

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(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 3
- 9/23/2001 2:15:00 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		I have not reeeeally enjoyed wargame related discussions in many other venues.
So I guess my opinion of wargaming venues is a tad islated. I must say though, that before finding Matrix, I had had the occasion to participate on both the ASL mailing list as well as the A3R mailing list. Sadly I cant say a great deal of positive things for either (actually I left because I could find nothing positive about them at all).
In the case of the ASL mailing list, well good manners forbids me saying what I really wish to say. Suffice it to say I wouldnt even waste spit on to many of its members (although I did meet a couple of nice individuals, but I had to leave all the same).
I found the A3R list to be so utterly mired in rules questions the likes of which astound me. Most rules debates there, could likely be dealth with efficiently if its membership employed the services of a good dictionary. But it has a considerable following that appear to be either foreign, (not entirely there fault if their english is poor) and persons that could use a bit more time in highschool.
Both of these lists were dedicated to wargames that were designed for the table top. A realm where the exact letter of the law was paramount in understanding the game.
You normally call rules debates in software games, "bugs" it would appear (if most of the posts are to be recieved at face value hehe). But with board games you either require errata, or you get biased interpretations of the text. After those two "venues" I came away a bit morose where my wargaming community was concerned. I began to wonder if maybe to many people were a bit to right concerning us wargamers.
I was sure pleasantly surprised by the Matrix community. It is therefore not odd I guess, that I have had little cause to stray far from these forums. What I guess I would like to see, is the crowd here submitting sites, lists, any sort of electronic medium that they have encountered conected to wargames related discussions.
Of course a link is not enough. Dont submit anything without also submitting your views negative or positive eh. I want to know who has been where and what they thought of the experience. Me I can say I have had basically friendly responses from MMP who currently market ASL for Hasbro.
I also can say that I feel Columbia Games has a first rate line of wargames. I dont know about computer games they may have though, I know only of their 100% outstanding wooden block wargames. As I have mentioned elsewhere, wargaming is a very narrow market niche hobby. We are not great in number and therefore operate on a marginal profit base. If you want to support the hobby you have to be prepared to do it with no desire for monetary gains. When Matrix releases a MC product you can assume they are doing it at a risk each and every time.
Ads are a great boost. If you want to help Matrix, splash there site address whereever you can. Use links to any web page you deal with. Exposure is worth its weight in gold.

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I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 4
- 9/23/2001 6:38:00 AM   
Richard bradley

 

Posts: 276
Joined: 9/9/2000
From: a warrenne, nere Chasluç, bas marches de Limousin
Status: offline 		..where do you get the idea that wargaming is in some sense a small "niche" market ? ..we are talking post internet here..., ..mind you, if Matrix would extract digit with the new operational level game (+elephants).......,

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...today, i be mostly experimenting..as are they, you, us and him/her...and it...,

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 5
- 9/24/2001 4:53:00 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Hello white rabbit

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 6
- 9/24/2001 4:57:00 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Ooops hit wrong button Yo white rabbit, you do realise what a "niche market" is I hope. The sales of say Windows XP will be to a "mass market" We are talking major sales numbers, thousands of dollars in advertising. International sales. Big numbers here. Fancy packaging with full documentation (not some online manual thingy). Now when you compare the sale of Windows XP to a wargame regardless if the game is a new title, wargames are indeed a "niche market". It explains why you can rarely find a wargame on the shelf 6 months after its released. Its cause thats the level of interest duration.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 7
- 9/24/2001 6:04:00 AM   
Tomanbeg

 

Posts: 4385
Joined: 7/14/2000
From: Memphis, Tn, CSA
Status: offline 		The WWW is still looking for a general source of revenue. I never thought advertising would do it. After all, if television had tried to survive in the 50's and 60's by making viewers pay what then was a lot of money to watch advertising, there would still be 1 or 2 TV's per village. Television prospered by providing people entertainment, and then sold advertising. While the web is informative, the entertainment value is not that high. Which is good, in a way. The concert for the bombing victims was watched by 3 to 4 hundred million people.( I think that is what they said on the Today show) When the net has the technology and the draw to get and handle 3 to 4 million hits at roughly the same time, then the ad money will be there. But first the web will have to prove that it's an entertainment medium that can compete with all the other leisure time pursuits out there. I think Gaming will be an intragal part of that. Most game companies are real short sighted. IMHO it appears that the games are designed for limited replay. They want you to buy the next module also. That is why it is so tough to find a game 6 months after it comes out. Plus most gamers are smarter then the average bear, which means they won't buy into the module concept from designers and companies that won't be here in 6 months. If the MM on-line games turn out to be profitable, then we are off to a good start.
T. (who dreams of being able to play SP2 online where my opponent can't get ahold of the files, and would be willing to pay at least as much as he does for the cable connection.)

_____________________________

"The 15th May, 1948, arrived ... On that day the mufti of Jerusalem appealed to the Arabs of Palestine to leave the country, because the Arab armies were about to enter and fight in their stead."
– The Cairo daily Akhbar el Yom, Oct. 12, 1963.
[IMG]http

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 8
- 9/24/2001 7:28:00 AM   
Ed Cogburn

 

Posts: 1979
Joined: 7/24/2000
From: Greeneville, Tennessee - GO VOLS!
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Tomanbeg:
Television prospered by providing people entertainment, and then sold advertising. While the web is informative, the entertainment value is not that high. Which is good, in a way. The concert for the bombing victims was watched by 3 to 4 hundred million people.( I think that is what they said on the Today show) When the net has the technology and the draw to get and handle 3 to 4 million hits at roughly the same time, then the ad money will be there.

There are fundamental differences between WWW and TV. With TV, the ad is forced on you because you can't skip it, thus its a little louder and shoved in your face. Like newspapers though, ads on the web can be skipped over and deliberately ignored. In fact, there is nothing on TV or in newspapers that resembles the use of proxy ad-busters. Matrix won't like to hear this, but I use Junkbuster almost all the time to kill ads on sites I go to, including Matrix. I hate ads, and with the web being a "programmable", interactive technology, you can't stop ad-killer proxies from being used. In other words, ads on the web face a gloomy future.

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(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 9
- 9/24/2001 7:52:00 AM   
David Heath


Posts: 3274
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Staten Island NY
Status: offline 		So Ed your the one..... sneaking pass the banner ads. What we found is wargamers (if not all gamers) do not explore the site. One of the only ways to let everyone know that we have made a deal or have a new game out is to make a banner and place it on our site. Two things must happen a wargame only site like MilitaryGamers Online that only deals with wargamer that has private funds or get the support of ALL wargamers and companies. If this does not happen ALL sites like this will and must go the way of the subscription fee. We were lucky and got funding but not everyone can and I fear a lot of web sites will close down over the next few months. CombatSim seems to be making it but its on sims NOT pure wargaming. The Wargamer does not only handle just wargaming anymore to help increase it base and get money into the site to keep it running. Support for wargaming sites is important and if its not done by the community they will vanish. Even if the wargamer does make it this month what will happen each and every month after that. Wargame websites and compaines need support not once in a a life time but all the time. Well I said my view on this and am stepping down off my soap box.

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(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 10
- 9/24/2001 11:17:00 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Yo David Just letting you know, this oddball doesnt worry over ads. Heck I am not surprised that the software exists to turf ads, but this is the first I have heard of them. And I am not planning on employing it myself. I have heard similar complaints from those that want to buy a magazine and grumble when the ads seem to get in the way. But those ads buy space and the revenue produces money to let people produce the product. So taking money out of your pocket is, well, DUMB!. Sheeeesh it never ceases to amaze me what people will complain about. Continue to enjoy employ those ads David. And dont worry, sensible people dont care to worry over a little lost time to let an ad load on a page. When Matrix wins we all win.
Cause if you werent here, there wouldnt be a site to go to would there? And a non existent site with no ads is well, not much of a bargain eh.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 11
- 9/24/2001 11:55:00 PM   
Tomanbeg

 

Posts: 4385
Joined: 7/14/2000
From: Memphis, Tn, CSA
Status: offline 		There are fundamental differences between WWW and TV. With TV, the ad is forced on you because you can't skip it, thus its a little louder and shoved in your face. Like newspapers though, ads on the web can be skipped over and deliberately ignored. In fact, there is nothing on TV or in newspapers that resembles the use of proxy ad-busters. Matrix won't like to hear this, but I use Junkbuster almost all the time to kill ads on sites I go to, including Matrix. I hate ads, and with the web being a "programmable", interactive technology, you can't stop ad-killer proxies from being used. In other words, ads on the web face a gloomy future.[/QB][/QUOTE]
Newspapers survived TV, and they still carry ads. You don't think the few pennies you pay for a newspaper comes anywhere close to the cost of printing and distributing that newspaper, do you?
People put up with the ads on TV because there is something on they want to watch. Plus the ads themselves are becoming very entertaining. Tha Ad people know all about remotes with instant return and mutes. Which means you CAN skip an ad if you really don't like it.(coors light where the giant snowball comes down). But you do have to watch it once to know you don't like it. What I appearently did such a poor job of saying is that First there has to be a reason to 'tune in'. Then the ad guy has a chance to hawk his wares. Right now there is no Web site equalivant to Cheers, Mash, Gunsmoke(Went way back for that one) I Love Lucy etc.
The difference between TV and WWW is format mostly. With the capability for interaction the Web should transcend TV as an entertainment medium. Instead of the Never Ending story we could have the Multi-ending story. A few years ago multi-pathed books were popular. Do you want to squeeze her tit(goto page 45)
to unzip your fly(go to page 61)
smack her upside the head(go to page 1)
The Tech is not that far away. And then there will something for the Web to hang it's hat on.
T( going to page 7)

_____________________________

"The 15th May, 1948, arrived ... On that day the mufti of Jerusalem appealed to the Arabs of Palestine to leave the country, because the Arab armies were about to enter and fight in their stead."
– The Cairo daily Akhbar el Yom, Oct. 12, 1963.
[IMG]http

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 12
- 9/25/2001 12:36:00 AM   
DougAngle

 

Posts: 37
Joined: 4/4/2000
From: Arvada, Co USA
Status: offline 		I have to say that one way I support my favorite sites is to go 'click happy' with the ads. It doesn't take much time and if it helps support the site, it's time well spent. If that is the price of keeping sites such as this open, then it is a small price indeed. I look forward to the many new games coming from Matrix so that we can help show support in a more substantial way. Thanks guys!

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(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 13
- 9/25/2001 7:34:00 AM   
sinner

 

Posts: 174
Joined: 5/7/2001
From: North Carolina
Status: offline 		The lack of revenues from advertising is causing trouble even with fansites. My website is being "boicotted" by Geocities. Yes. They consider that my visitors use an unfair amount of bandwidth. So, you build a site, you work on it. People likes it and visits it. Then, Geocities cuts the pipe on "rush-hours" because your site is useful and too many people visits your website! Insane. I thought that tihs would mean that more people will be viewing their adds. Again, Insane. If this is happening to me, well, I can see this affecting also other sites that rely only on advertisements for funding. Anyway, I am moving the Steel Panthers part of my site to another place, maybe just another geocites website, so the "visits" will be divided. I will post the new URL as soon as it gets moved. Salut,
Sinner

_____________________________

Sinner from the Prairy<br />"Thalassa! Thalassa!"

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 14
- 9/25/2001 2:56:00 PM   
Ed Cogburn

 

Posts: 1979
Joined: 7/24/2000
From: Greeneville, Tennessee - GO VOLS!
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1:
Sheeeesh it never ceases to amaze me what people will complain about. Continue to enjoy employ those ads David. And dont worry, sensible people dont care to worry over a little lost time to let an ad load on a page.

Sensible? Ads are a pain in the arse, especially on those sites that use large ads that require significant download time. The fact remains that for me surfing the web, or at least the parts of it I'm interested in, without ads is a much more pleasant experience. The time needed to load those ads adds up quick. As for Matrix, I know darn well that David understands that Matrix's future is in selling wargames at $40 or $50 a pop, not ad banners on the web at $0.01 each.

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(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 15
- 9/25/2001 3:07:00 PM   
Ed Cogburn

 

Posts: 1979
Joined: 7/24/2000
From: Greeneville, Tennessee - GO VOLS!
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Tomanbeg:
The difference between TV and WWW is format mostly. With the capability for interaction the Web should transcend TV as an entertainment medium.

Agreed, it will happen eventually, but not without *MUCH* higher bandwidth. That level of bandwidth needed, unfortunately, is not imminent, in terms of mass availability and cost. When electricity and the telephone came around, the government decided these were things that should be in nearly every American's home, and they proceeded with plans to accomplish just that. For now though, the government isn't looking at the Internet in the same way, instead of embracing it, they seem to be afraid of it.

_____________________________


(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 16
- 9/25/2001 9:14:00 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		I think that the essence of today can be summed up, as a desire for to much, to fast. Rush rush rush. We have become somewhat spoiled to the point of excess. To much is to easy. We want it now, in fact, we want it yesterday. Nothing is ever enough. The moment we have something we want more. Computers make this brutally apparent, and dissenting opinions wont have much chance against the obvious weight of evidence. Sometimes I get a bit weary listening to individuals complaining of "speed" limits where computers are concerned. I went from ordinary connection to DSL mostly to free up my phone line. I couldnt justify the expense if it was only to allow me to download software faster. It took me 2.5 days to download Steel Panthers originally. It could just as easily been say 6.5 evenings. Its not like I use the time for anything(I usually spend my night sleeping after all). I cant speak for others, but I cant see people routinely downloading large volumes of material all the time. And whether a page loads in a second or a minute, hmmm I have never found my life so tragically hindered. But then again I have never owned a car, although I am used to the phenomenon of people just being unable to wait 20 seconds when driving in them. Whether Matrix recieves a little or a lot from a banner. Wether the banner is petite or large. Whether it loads instantaneously or in several seconds. I think the problem is we have become incredibly intolerant and completely lacking in patience as a society. Which I am sure many will disagree with, but I have been on the planet to long to think many people know what patience is anymore. This in clear in the way people want their MC disk and want it before it even exists. I guess Matrix might benefit from pre order funds, but I have never yet pre ordered any product in my life.
I dont use credit either. If I want something I save up till I can afford it then pay cash for it. Now as for Sinner's comment about Geocities, hmmmmm guess its just a good example of Geocities wanting their cake and eat it too possibly. But then they do give the space for free, and free being, well, free I guess its hard to complain (kinda like complaining about something with Steel Panthers). My web page exists by virtue of Tripods generosity. So I cant say I hate them for putting a banner on the top of each and every page. Especially when I never paid them a cent for it being there. It would be clearly in my best interest to subdivide if I attracted enough attention to make me seem intrusive on Tripods functionality (which I have absolutely no say over for good reason, I dont pay for any of it). The above had little to do with wargaming directly I guess. It all comes down to how much will you give to get something back. When does a comment become a whine. At what point does dictating how something is to be delivered, especially when its free, become unconcionable.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 17
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