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- 6/24/2002 5:48:40 AM   
Mojo

 

Posts: 915
Joined: 2/6/2002
From: Portland, Oregon USA
Status: offline 		I haven't changed my mind. I'm with juliet7bravo.

If I'm supposed to be sitting in PH working on my tan and the wahines, err..... formulating strategy, I shouldn't have to tell them to put their raincoats on if it's raining or come in out of the bombardment.

I swear they act like a flock of domestic turkeys sometimes.

Still think it's a great game guys.

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(in reply to Capt Cliff)
Post #: 31
- 6/24/2002 5:57:08 PM   
Sabre21


Posts: 8231
Joined: 4/27/2001
From: on a mountain in Idaho
Status: offline 		It's pretty obvious that many of us have differing opinions on the level of needed or desired micromanagement. I consider it important to tell my fleets and squadrons what types of ships are priority targets, or the course that they may take to get to and from the target area...going in a straight line isn't necessarily a smart idea...this type of micromanagement I do not consider anal retentive and I take offense when someone suggests as much.

Logistics might be a pain...but it is as necessary as any part of a battle....all the great commanders got involved with their logistics. Who do you think orders the fleet when to replenish...it's not some poor ensign down in the laundry room, or who orders the stockpiling of fuel and supplies in preparation for a major offensive and where to strategically place it...it sure as heck isn't Crapgame from Kelly's Heroes (although he comes close:) It's the good leaders that do all this!

I sure as heck don't want the AI to take my fleet out of operation and begin replenishment at the wrong time or run a supply convoy within LBA range without adequate protection.

So I think what we need here are some game options that allow various functions to be toggled on or off depending on individual preferences (much more tactful way of asking rather than calling ppl anal retentive). I also like the idea of waypoints, that would reduce having to keep track of fleets all the time. I would also like the ability to set up a supply convoy system that allows me to assign transports and escorts to and from specific ports and have it continue along the route I select until I decide to change it. That way I can order supplies and fuel to PM or Luganville or wherever and let all them ensigns do the dirty work...but when necessary...pull them transports out for an invasion fleet.

It still only takes me around 10 minutes or less to do a turn...but then I do 1 day increments...some turns I just click to advance but I like the flexibility of daily input.

Andy

(in reply to Capt Cliff)
Post #: 32
2 leaders - 6/24/2002 6:55:08 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, The player is not Nimitz in PH he is 2 differant leaders. One in Command of SouthPac the other in Coommand Of SouthWestPac
He might consider that he actually goes on board one of his TF's when they put to sea. From the flag plot he directs the TF commander. Or he stays ashore but prior to the TF getting underway he gives very specific instructions to the TF leader. The "micro managment" is merely seeing they are carried out.
The operational commander would be in charge of dictating how his TF's are employed. Unless we are able to program our plans 10 days to 3 months in advance into TF leaders the AI will have no idea what we really want. There fore we have to every day insure it is being done. It's not hard and it does not take that long.

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Capt Cliff)
Post #: 33
- 6/24/2002 7:21:43 PM   
Sonny

 

Posts: 2008
Joined: 4/3/2002
Status: offline 		Keep it the way it is.

I like the level of management as it is with an exception or two (you knew there wouild be an exception). I would like the ability to set up ASW patrols the way that CS convoys are set up. Create your SC or DD squadron, set a few way points (which include a port) and the TF just cruises the patrol area and refuels by itself until you give different orders or it finds and reacts to an enemy sub. Kinda like the train-til-you're-done thing mentioned in another post. Sure you can send them out with reaction set ON and retire set OFF but then you have to keep checking them.

:)

(in reply to Capt Cliff)
Post #: 34
- 6/24/2002 8:51:19 PM   
Mojo

 

Posts: 915
Joined: 2/6/2002
From: Portland, Oregon USA
Status: offline 		I stand corrected. Domo arigato Mogami and gomenasai.

:)

I guess my recollections of the game are getting a little fuzzy as I haven't played it in weeks and I didn't read the title of the thread closely enough.

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Post #: 35
- 6/24/2002 9:26:48 PM   
Mark Ezra

 

Posts: 340
Joined: 12/29/2000
From: Jasmin Ranch, Acton CA
Status: offline 		I disagree: Bring on the micromanagement as long as I can continue to use the "commanders descretion" button. You see, we ALREADY have the best of both worlds. Sometimes I have a specific notion of the target and results I want...ie bomb Rabual airfield only. Sometimes no idea what I want...that's when the guy on the ground, commanders descretion, get's the nod. It's all in the game. You can tweak it to include more variables, I guess, or give a general OPerations order for the commanders descretion mode...but isn't that already being done now?

(in reply to Capt Cliff)
Post #: 36
Sorry - 6/24/2002 9:39:24 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mojo
[B]I stand corrected. Domo arigato Mogami and gomenasai.

:)

I guess my recollections of the game are getting a little fuzzy as I haven't played it in weeks and I didn't read the title of the thread closely enough. [/B][/QUOTE]

Hi, Sorry Mojo I don't want you thinking you are not entitled to your view. I was really trying more to state mine then refute yours. I could have done it a more tactfull way. I only meant your not in PH getting a tan your in Noumea or NG getting ate by mosquitos

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Capt Cliff)
Post #: 37
Re: Sorry - 6/24/2002 10:30:23 PM   
Mojo

 

Posts: 915
Joined: 2/6/2002
From: Portland, Oregon USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mogami
[B]

Hi, Sorry Mojo I don't want you thinking you are not entitled to your view. I was really trying more to state mine then refute yours. I could have done it a more tactfull way. I only meant your not in PH getting a tan your in Noumea or NG getting ate by mosquitos [/B][/QUOTE]

Not at all Mogami. No offense taken.

My comments were totally inappropriate for the thread. Glad somebody pointed that out to me. I must learn to stick to the topic. First I need to read it all though.

:D

_____________________________

If something's not working you might want to tunk it a dite.
Mojo's Mom

(in reply to Capt Cliff)
Post #: 38
- 6/25/2002 8:57:05 AM   
RayM

 

Posts: 310
Joined: 10/19/2000
From: Marlton, NJ USA
Status: offline 		After I read Joe 98's post in the very, very, early part of Sunday am after staying up all night to continue my UV learning curve, I whipped up the following admitedly, sleep-addled reply but set it aside. Looking at it now and the thread to date, I would like to throw a part of it into the pot.

*****I think you can be a grog without having a desire to micro-manage and you can be a non-grog who likes to micro-manage. There is also the possibility that a player will move from one side to the other based on the actual game or genre ( I certainly have over the years). Perhaps we are dealing with definitions and preferences in style of play. Both styles can be found in grogs and non-grogs alike in my 25+ years of wargamer experience.

What really matters to me is that a game strikes a balance between the two styles. From what we have seen to date, UV can be placed in the micro-management category and that's fine with me. And I agree with you that we need both to keep investing in the hobby.

If I have mis-intrepreted your comment...let me apologize in advance. ****

As mentioned in this thread by Joe 98, I am also surprised at the amount of time it takes for me to work through a turn (I kept the setting at 12 hrs I think). I just hope that it is only an indication of my learning the game and in time, I'll be able to doing things quicker and more efficiently. Either that or I will have to force myself to stop at midnight on week nights and go to bed.

I too am interested in being able to fine-tune the degree of micro-management command activities. There are some great ideas here, epecially use of waypoints. At the moment, I have to direct my TFs around lurking subs and then set their final destination.

After reading the thread to date, I hope that the topic will be of interest to the WitP developers given the fact that WitP will be a much larger game based on UV's game system and engine. I would bet that this topic will come up again when Witp is released.

What I hope can be avoided in WitP, is the girth and massive (although informative) complexity as seen in the old grandfather of Pacific theater board wargames, SPI's War in the Pacific and other large mega-games from that era. I'm sure many boardgamers will remember how long it took to set up the monster games....let alone play...beautiful indeed, but still a monster. In some ways, the extensive micro-management aspects we have today might be its computer equivalent.

BTW, this is a great thread.

(in reply to Capt Cliff)
Post #: 39
- 6/25/2002 9:36:19 AM   
sbattler

 

Posts: 6
Joined: 6/10/2002
From: Threshold of Hell
Status: offline 		I disagree as well. Remember this is an operational level game. It has enough micro management as it is.

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Anonomous CSA Pvt, 1862

(in reply to Capt Cliff)
Post #: 40
Grog non Grog - 6/25/2002 6:51:28 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, My view here is that Grognards are not micro managers for the sake of control but rather because a Grog is interested is everything every where every turn. Non Grogs don't care if ship names or captains are included (just saying 2 CA and 4 DD would be fine) The Grog after a few games knows the names of the ship captains and has Desrons and Carrier Divisions set up even though there is no need as far as the game is concerned.
In the old PacWar game the Grognard would not split the LCU in China just to score victory points (he knew it was not possible, but it was allowed) The Grognard everyday vists his units. He has airgroups/pilots/ships/land combat units he keeps track of.
The micro managment is a by product of this not the source.
The non Grog wants to knock out turns. If nothing is happening he wants to just click and go to next day. He is happy with the computer control intill it screws something up and then he wants another command installed to prevent this from occuring again.
The Grognard looks at the map for hours when first starting and see's the situation 3 months in the future. He counts hexes and places airgroups based on range and weapon loadout rather then grabbing a group and sending it to a base and then finding there is not enough support. The Grognard does not have Tanaka or W Lee commanding PC or SC groups chasing subs where they might be killed chasing 6 victory points, he lets a Cmd/Lt Cmd do that job.
So since the Grognard wants to know how many days a sub can stay at sea he checks it every day to understand fuel use.
Same with TF. Airgroups supply use depending on mission intensity. It appears to be micro managment it is really (in my case anyway) total immersion in the subject/game.
I do get suprised (I play humans) but rarely can I point to the computer mis managment of my forces (I mis manage quite well on my own)
Most PBEM turns even in high intensity periods require under 30 minutes to complete. (of couse watching the combat all the way through takes time but important lessons can be learned by doing so. )

_____________________________






I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Capt Cliff)
Post #: 41
- 6/25/2002 7:11:53 PM   
elmo3

 

Posts: 5820
Joined: 1/22/2002
Status: offline 		No, there is not too much micromanagement for TF's IMO.

(in reply to Capt Cliff)
Post #: 42
- 6/26/2002 1:57:16 AM   
JJJ

 

Posts: 3
Joined: 11/20/2000
Status: offline 		I disagree.

I think the Air Combat TF's are one of the more enjoyable aspects of the game to manage :) .

(in reply to Capt Cliff)
Post #: 43
Geez, Mogami.. - 6/26/2002 2:18:38 AM   
sparks

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 5/15/2002
From: Underway!
Status: offline 		You been sitting behind me when I play. No wonder my wife gets mad with the yelling in the study. "No, you stupid ^^$*&&%, I meant your other starboard!!!" Now, how can we send Ghormley on a tree counting trip in Adak?

The only control issue I have is the constant looking out to make sure the ASW patrols don't run out of fuel. Some shavetail Ens. or JG ought to see that the fuel guage is low and it's time to head for the gas station. I mean Churchill had to order Tovey to stay out even it if meant running out of fuel when hunting the Bismarck.

For the three card table person - it took two sheets of plywood and two card tables to set up War in the Pacific - the board game. Now talk about micro management.

(in reply to Capt Cliff)
Post #: 44
Re: Geez, Mogami.. - 6/26/2002 5:46:45 AM   
Spooky


Posts: 816
Joined: 4/1/2002
From: Froggy Land
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by sparks
[B]You been sitting behind me when I play. No wonder my wife gets mad with the yelling in the study. "No, you stupid ^^$*&&%, I meant your other starboard!!!" Now, how can we send Ghormley on a tree counting trip in Adak?

The only control issue I have is the constant looking out to make sure the ASW patrols don't run out of fuel. Some shavetail Ens. or JG ought to see that the fuel guage is low and it's time to head for the gas station. I mean Churchill had to order Tovey to stay out even it if meant running out of fuel when hunting the Bismarck.

For the three card table person - it took two sheets of plywood and two card tables to set up War in the Pacific - the board game. Now talk about micro management. [/B][/QUOTE]

ASW Patrol ? You mean "Surface Combat TF" I suppose ... There is now a fuel indicator in the TF screen that should help you ...

(in reply to Capt Cliff)
Post #: 45
- 6/26/2002 9:08:28 AM   
RayM

 

Posts: 310
Joined: 10/19/2000
From: Marlton, NJ USA
Status: offline 		Mogami - Great response...true so true.

(in reply to Capt Cliff)
Post #: 46
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