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House Rules? - 12/6/2009 2:20:18 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

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I'm wondering what the most common PBEM "house rules" are for GGWBTS these days. Would appreciate if those of you who have a lot of games under your belt with v1.040 would e-mail me at erikr@matrixgames.com and let me know.

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: House Rules? - 12/7/2009 5:13:27 PM   
Treefrog


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DocoWar, Jutland13 and I are trying a house rule:
1. limits the CSA to 3 Army Commanders
2. Lee must stay in the Eastern Theatre
3. Grant must stay in the WEstern Theatre until he achieves 22 command rating.

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RE: House Rules? - 12/8/2009 6:46:38 AM   
Leegb1

 

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TF,
Do your house rules indicate a balance issue? Are the Confederates stronger on defense than the Union on offense?
LGB

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RE: House Rules? - 12/8/2009 10:16:23 AM   
GShock


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There should be house rules on cannon/ship and even supply production. The manpower represented in the game is absolutely fantastic and should be much more limited imho but there's no way to set such a rule because in any case the fog of war doesn't allow the other player to check the production levels...

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RE: House Rules? - 12/8/2009 3:56:41 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Treefrog,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Treefrog
1. limits the CSA to 3 Army Commanders
2. Lee must stay in the Eastern Theatre
3. Grant must stay in the WEstern Theatre until he achieves 22 command rating.


I understand the historical preference reasons for 2 and 3, but what's the reason for 1?

What "house rules", if any, have you already used in completed PBEM games and found to be worthwhile?


< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 12/8/2009 3:59:03 PM >


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RE: House Rules? - 12/8/2009 3:58:44 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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GShock,

quote:

ORIGINAL: GShock
There should be house rules on cannon/ship and even supply production. The manpower represented in the game is absolutely fantastic and should be much more limited imho but there's no way to set such a rule because in any case the fog of war doesn't allow the other player to check the production levels...


What's your rationale on these suggestions? The manpower in the game is pretty historical as far as I can tell and cannon/ship production was already limited in the official updates. Supply usage was increased in the official updates as well.


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RE: House Rules? - 12/8/2009 4:36:24 PM   
Leegb1

 

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I'm playing my first ftf game and the confederacy is doing very well.  Is there a consensus that the Union is much harder to play to win, or is this game balanced?

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RE: House Rules? - 12/8/2009 7:04:58 PM   
GShock


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quote:


What's your rationale on these suggestions? The manpower in the game is pretty historical as far as I can tell and cannon/ship production was already limited in the official updates. Supply usage was increased in the official updates as well.


Essentially there's a bible in the private forums on suggestions on how to modify the manpower issue by increasing attrition and the consumption of supplies. Everything derives from supplies so if you increase consumption you limit militia recruiting and, at the same time, you force the players to build less cannons and ships.

The problem of manpower is closely related to the overrunning ratio which is too high in my opinion. Costs being extremely low for depots and forts, a mere fort needs the entire army of potomac to overrun a very small garrison. CSA also has a very strong combat advantage deriving from the road/rail connections and you end up raiding a railroad which gets immediately repaired (extremely low costs again) thus neglecting the advantage of a follow-up attack on a garrison that can't be reinforced.

These and a million other things I already explained, build 200.000 vs 100.000 battles in '64 in Virginia where we know the Army of Northern VA was most certainly the strongest concentration of troops CSA ever had... behind it, in VA, the total desert, no men even to sow the fields remained.

Count these 100.000 and there's more in the western theater... there's simply too many troopers on the map, probably because most get just damaged in combat and, again, there's no real penalty with merging them... you just got to wait for a new damaged unit to arrive at the production center and you can also save on manpower in that region. The loss in experience is highly indecisive.

If you look in the pvt forums you'll see not only I was the main factor pushing towards these limitations, I also did the research on foundries of the civil war era and I've countless times reported with the hugest of all armies and multiple depots in every single conquered region of the United States I ended the game with 3000+ supplies. An analysis of the civil war lists very few big battles, few skirmishes and the vast majority of territorial conquests were attacks on undefended places. This is a dream in wbts, unfortunately... too many men, simply as that.

< Message edited by GShock -- 12/8/2009 7:05:13 PM >


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RE: House Rules? - 12/8/2009 7:08:24 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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GShock,

I appreciate the reply, but with due respect I'm not looking for design suggestions so much as trying to find out what the active players of WBTS have found to be the most useful and tested house rules, if any. I'm planning to play some WBTS v1.040 via PBEM over the holidays and wanted to know if there was any consensus.

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: House Rules? - 12/8/2009 7:49:46 PM   
Treefrog


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Erik,

It creates a disparity between the relative capabilities of the sides to conduct major theatre operations. We think that this is historical. DocoWar can give a fuller explanation.

With this rule, the South cannot be (as) strong everywhere. The USA will have an advantage on a front, allowing them to make progress in the war.

In 1864 we allow an additional CSA AC in the Trans Mississippi to reflect their great success with meagre means in that theatre.

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RE: House Rules? - 12/8/2009 8:05:16 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Treefrog
It creates a disparity between the relative capabilities of the sides to conduct major theatre operations. We think that this is historical. DocoWar can give a fuller explanation.
With this rule, the South cannot be (as) strong everywhere. The USA will have an advantage on a front, allowing them to make progress in the war.


In my past experience with WBTS, the Union could make progress without this limitation on the CSA. Have you guys found this to be otherwise in your PBEMs so far with players of roughly equal skill

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: House Rules? - 12/10/2009 8:53:20 AM   
GShock


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

GShock,

I appreciate the reply, but with due respect I'm not looking for design suggestions so much as trying to find out what the active players of WBTS have found to be the most useful and tested house rules, if any. I'm planning to play some WBTS v1.040 via PBEM over the holidays and wanted to know if there was any consensus.


With due respect as well, you asked for the rationale on these suggestions and I explained why what's really needed cannot be achieved by any house rules.
At any rate, the house rule on forcing CSA to a max number of 3 AC is clue enough that what I'm saying is true. I am concerned about the PP loss for the lack of an AC (I guess we'll know more at the end of their tests) but it's a very good house rule... I am surprised I didn't think about that myself and am going to try it.
Great idea, Doc!

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RE: House Rules? - 12/10/2009 1:00:56 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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GShock,

My point is that I'd like to hear some input based on PBEM games that have been completed with or without house rules to find out what the consensus is these days on what house rules work best (if any). If you have some PBEMs under your belt with the last update and some house rules that worked well based on those, I'd love to hear about them but I don't want to enter into a speculative redesign discussion.

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: House Rules? - 12/10/2009 5:42:29 PM   
Treefrog


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Erik,

I suggested to Doc we try limiting CSA to 3 AC after a dinner conversation we had last month (btw Doc is a fine dinner companion). He summarized the development of AC commands during the war for both sides and arrived at the conclusion, as best I can recollect, he can comment and clear up any misconceptions on my part, that the game AC system did not reflect that the logistical and other ability of the North to maintain large operations on multiple fronts was greater than that of the South. This view is clearly our subjective point of view, your mileage may vary.

In my experience with about 9 or so PBEM games with opponents of differing ability, the North often (not always) has a very difficult time against a CSA player of comparable skill and ability. Not always, but often. Of course, a sample of 9 or so is sufficiently small that it doesn't necessarily reflect reality. My abject failures as the Union are limited to Jutland13, which, again, may simply be idiosyncratic (or in my case, idiotsyncratic); he clearly outplayed me and I don't attribute my failings to 4 CSA ACs, although it might have helped if he didn't have them.

My 3 CSA AC suggestion is as much a play balance/handicap solution as anything else.

We address the PP challenge addressed by GShock by allowing the 4th AC on the map, he just doesn't do anything until 1864 when he is available to actively participate in the TransMississippi. Frankly, we might adjust that house rule to allow activation when the North severs the South at the three Mississippi River crossings.



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RE: House Rules? - 12/10/2009 5:43:40 PM   
Treefrog


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I confess ignorance on why HA is so helpful in defending coastal forts.

What is the analysis underlying the conclusion that it is helpful?

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RE: House Rules? - 12/10/2009 6:33:16 PM   
GShock


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Tree perhaps you could propose to increase raid strategic effectiveness so that you've got to wait 1 turn before repairing the damaged railroads. This hampers both sides logistical advantages (i suppose you're playing 100/100?) in movement phase but also renders the reaction phase much much more realistic.  

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RE: House Rules? - 12/10/2009 7:43:12 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Treefrog
He summarized the development of AC commands during the war for both sides and arrived at the conclusion, as best I can recollect, he can comment and clear up any misconceptions on my part, that the game AC system did not reflect that the logistical and other ability of the North to maintain large operations on multiple fronts was greater than that of the South. This view is clearly our subjective point of view, your mileage may vary.


Sure, thanks for the explanation. I understand what you're after now and I can see your point.

quote:

In my experience with about 9 or so PBEM games with opponents of differing ability, the North often (not always) has a very difficult time against a CSA player of comparable skill and ability. Not always, but often. Of course, a sample of 9 or so is sufficiently small that it doesn't necessarily reflect reality. My abject failures as the Union are limited to Jutland13, which, again, may simply be idiosyncratic (or in my case, idiotsyncratic); he clearly outplayed me and I don't attribute my failings to 4 CSA ACs, although it might have helped if he didn't have them.


9 Games is a good sample as far as I'm concerned, it's a lot more post-update PBEM experience than I've had. From previous experience, I think WBTS does require quite a bit of skill to play well and it's easy to let yourself get bogged down as the Union if you don't plan ahead. I think both sides are quite challenging though and the Union player has to focus on stretching the Confederate player's defense. If the Union player does not stretch the Confederate player through both multiple land advance routes as well as coastal invasions, he will likely stall out. If he succeeds in stretching the Confederacy, he can keep the momentum going and once it builds the CSA has a heck of a time stopping it.

It's also worth keeping in mind that CSA players tend to do a better job of defending in the West than the CSA did historically and Union players tend not to be as aggressive about pushing on Richmond to tie down the CSA there due to PP concerns (hopefully the updates helped with that). So to some degree house rules have to reflect the "meta game" as well as the real game and consider that the historical figures didn't get a chance to re-fight things multiple times to find optimal strategies.

quote:

My 3 CSA AC suggestion is as much a play balance/handicap solution as anything else
We address the PP challenge addressed by GShock by allowing the 4th AC on the map, he just doesn't do anything until 1864 when he is available to actively participate in the TransMississippi. Frankly, we might adjust that house rule to allow activation when the North severs the South at the three Mississippi River crossings.


I'm very interested to hear how it goes. I'm concerned that it will make things too easy for the Union, but maybe it will work out. No way to know for sure except to try it out.

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: House Rules? - 12/10/2009 7:45:46 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Treefrog
I confess ignorance on why HA is so helpful in defending coastal forts.
What is the analysis underlying the conclusion that it is helpful?


Per section 10.1.4:

"A unit in a region with a level one fortification gets die(10) added and a unit in a region with a level two fortification gets die(40) added to their combat value. In addition, heavy artillery units receive a double bonus. For example, a heavy artillery unit in a level two fortification would get the sum of die(40) + die(40) added to its combat value."

HA adds a lot to the victory determination. It's tough to dislodge a force with HA in a fortification, without destroying the HA. That's why the Union is also often well served to bring an AC along on major amphibious invasions for the increased combat value.

< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 12/10/2009 7:46:45 PM >


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RE: House Rules? - 12/10/2009 11:23:24 PM   
Treefrog


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Erik,
The HA on amphibious seems pretty risk to me. I would have to commit to be of any help and if the attack fails, would probably be captured by the defender.

The Frog

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RE: House Rules? - 12/11/2009 2:29:29 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

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I don't mean bring it along on an amphibious invasion, I mean use it to defend against one. The bonus it gets is such that a Union landing that isn't of corps size and doesn't have an AC along can have a tough time overcoming it (assuming it is not destroyed).

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RE: House Rules? - 12/12/2009 1:07:48 AM   
Doc o War


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Sorry - Had not been on the board for several days.

The House rule we are working with has several elements- mostly this effects the South- after numerous plays PBEM it seemed the Union could not make near the traction against the south as the original forces were able too- I looked at it and realized the South could always match the North Army Commander to Army Commander- yet in reality the South really only fielded three real armies,  Against steady pounding by four or five Northern Armies through the first few years of the war- eventually when the Mississippi was cut the South made a de facto army in the Trans Miss-
   By the end of the war the North was fielding 7 armies plus a large corps command that was nearly another-  By then the south was down to three shells- maybe four.
    Many forces got called armies in that war- but the true ability to supply and command control the force operationally is what we mean in this game. Most of the so called armies of the war were corps in size-  but commanding multy corps formations was a tricker thing.
    The South also was plauged with a very rigid political/ governmental command control doctrinaire issue To much micro managing from Richmond,- Once the two Theaters - East and West - were created- they did not work well together- or in unison of purpose.  And commanders did not leave their theaters- so the South has two commands- West and East- this happens as of Dec 61- Once a Theater commander is in place  he may not leave that theater to go to the other Theater. Further- each theater has one army commander assigned to it each turn- that commander must stay in that theater only- that means one other army commander is free to move to either theater- The most important part of this is  the Fourth Army commander goes permenantly to Bowie Texas in dec 61( he is free to move about pre Dec 61)- and can only be released when the Mississippi is cut- or Bowie Tx itself is attacked-
here is the cut and paste of the agreement set: So far the game is still playing out good and the Union, while given an edge- is not by any means getting to walk over the South- The South is tough.



  1. CSA: an AC is placed in Trans-Mississippi(in Bowie Texas) after Dec 61 shakeup, there to remaining until released. Release is by either the Trans Miss being cut/ or directly attacked in the Bowie Tx region. Release is immediate and once done is not undone. Trans Mississippi army may not cross the Mississippi. Ever,  
  2.  if J Johnston is AC in Virginia when Lee arrives in Feb, Johnston would have to either be promoted TC in the East or West or relieved of command, this would more accurately reflect what happened. 
  3. 1 AC is to stay in Bowie TX  The TCs stay permanently in East/ and West and each have one AC permanently attached - and that leaves one field army that can move back and forth
  4. Lee does not leave Virginia period  To Include West Virginia ( which in Southern Eyes was still part of Virginia) and any neutral or northern region north of VA
  5. Grant only comes East when he reaches 20 Command Points, he had to have significant success out West to even come East, let alone to have the freedom of command he was given.


< Message edited by Doc o War -- 12/12/2009 1:16:45 AM >


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RE: House Rules? - 12/12/2009 1:31:09 AM   
Doc o War


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AS too what to do about supply and builds?- I am not sure- The overall amount of supply seems a little rich- and can if played right- actually pile up to be quiet large amounts on the Northern Side-  But then again didnt the Northern Economy outproduce the South by over two to one in volume of war material produced anyway- maybe five to one in Clothing given the Mills of New England.
The North was much more industrialized. The Infrastructure was more developed. There was three times the rail capacity- maybe more. So the Union being rich in Supply doesnt win the war- thus I dont know that a fix on the Northern Supply seems like a real big issue- though it is a bit rich.

The South on the other hand- can easily attain a level of self sufficiency that will be strong through the war- so that no real shortages ever happen- yet we know the Southern Armies were badly effected by supply problems. 
  But how to alter the game  regarding the supply. maybe increase the costs of building units?  Or the cost of supplying them? This is something that should be done delicately though as the game seems pretty well balanced already- even if the south never has hungry shoeless soldiers.
  Feeding the southern troops was a major problem several times during the war.

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RE: House Rules? - 12/12/2009 1:34:52 AM   
Doc o War


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There is one change I think needs to happen- The 1000 points needed to keep Lincoln elected and the North in the war is too much.  In three recent games I came within 100 points of 1000 by Nov 1864 as the Union in head to head play- but the ability to gain the final points in time just was not possible- I think if the actual points needed were lowered to 950 or even 975 that it would make this more possible-

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RE: House Rules? - 12/12/2009 4:14:19 PM   
GShock


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Problem of supply in itself doesn't stand... what I mean is that with those supplies not the North but the South causes problems with spawning too many soldiers AND being able to fortify every single border region which, in turn, negates the overrun capability of the North. I think your rules are outstanding and the limit to 3 CSA AC is the work of a genius mind. There's only one way to limit supply production and that happens by limiting the ability to build factories. However... rather than trying that, I would focus on limiting the actual usage of production points since this also helps tuning down the number of artillery units that is too overpowering for the North. Ultimately this also helps CSA keep some chance of actually breaking the blockade since PP are vastly used to produce ships but it has to be counterbalanced by an increased transport capacity for the North side.

Obviously, balancing these factors together requires a big effort. It's likely it will take more than a couple of games. PLEASE when you play this game post an AAR.


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RE: House Rules? - 12/14/2009 7:18:46 PM   
Capt Cliff


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Ok ... here goes ...

1) Theater Commander must stay in there theater!! The south needs a Trans Mississippi commander, one for the Mississippi, one for Atlanta and one for the east. That's 4 ... what we got now but they just can't move from Peterburg to Memphis in the same turn. For the North I'd say one or two more, one most likely which reflects the larger army the Union fielded.
2) The South must invade Kentucky by October 61, aka historical. It prevents the South from using Kentuckey as a wall.
3) Introduce field fortification for all areas that do not have a major city. Right now you fortifiy Manassas is the same as fortifying Petersburg. No way.
4) Why is moving from Washington to Manassas a river crossing assault? The CSA never had control up to the river!
5) Some how make running past forts on a river possible, in one turn. Leader ability or what ever. Allows for capturing New Orleans historically.
6) Allow for overrun displacement. In other words a large army moves into an area with a smaller enmey force there, like Lee moving through Harpers Ferry on his way to Gettysburg. The smaller force is automatically retreated, they aren't suicidial. This simulates an explotation type move.
7) Balloons ... why not! Was going to ask for paratroops ...

Ok ... end of round one!

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RE: House Rules? - 12/14/2009 8:17:43 PM   
Qwixt


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Excuse me for asking a newbie question, I was thinking of getting this game. Are all these house rules needed to balance an overpowered South with the North? I have been reading up on the game, and it seems like the North is never allowed to use their numerical superiority due to game mechanics hamstringing activation, movement, and overrun.

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RE: House Rules? - 12/14/2009 8:39:46 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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I think half of what you read above are design suggestions and experimental house rules rather than tested ones. It seems like a lot of PBEM players are in agreement that some additional limitations on the South may be worthwhile. I can only say that in my own PBEM experience so far, things seem pretty well balanced to the historical.

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RE: House Rules? - 12/14/2009 10:06:12 PM   
Joel Billings


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In the one serious PBEM game I played (it's in the AAR section http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1731304 ), as the south I managed to barely win on points in June 1865, after Lincoln was reelected by the thinnest of margins in 1864. IIRC, I was able to hold Atlanta and keep a rail line open from Mobile to Richmond, which kept Richmond supplied and able to hold out the entire war. The game could have easily gone either way, and if you look at the map you'll see the south was a shell of it's original self. As the developer of the game, I had some advantages in terms of knowing the game system, although Jon was a very worthy opponent. I'd say that between two good players, the game may be slightly balanced towards the south, but not by much. A lot depends on the start the Union gets in the first year to 15 months of the war. A key victory in a close early battle may make all the difference, but then again, there are usually plenty of opportunities for both sides to screw things up or make things better for themselves.

(in reply to Qwixt)
Post #: 28
RE: House Rules? - 12/15/2009 8:23:15 PM   
Treefrog


Posts: 702
Joined: 4/7/2004
Status: offline
To Qwixt,

My personal opinion is that the game remains playable as is, with no house rules.

These discussions would not dissuade me from buying and playing the game. I have in fact purchased the game twice for my own account (long story, I'll spare you) and I have been actively playing it to the exclusion of all others since summer 2008.

The players involved in this discussion are mostly former playtesters and, IMHO, are certainly very experienced players and bring a very high level of sophisticated analysis, both historical and simulation based, to the topic.

However, at an earlier phase of development of GGWBTS some of the commentators here developed some house rules regarding production limitation and Kentucky invasion that were ultimately incorporated in the game as a patch. This suggests that house rules may, I say only may, lead to improvements of the game.




_____________________________

"L'audace, l'audace, toujours l'audace."

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 29
RE: House Rules? - 12/16/2009 12:42:40 AM   
Qwixt


Posts: 902
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline
That's a great endorsement. Been waffling back and forth between this and FoF, or just saying the heck with it and get both  But I don't really want to spend that much. Read all the comparisons, so I understand the differences between the two. It's simply me deciding which I prefer, a more tactical + civ type (FoF), or a more realistic strategic simplified UI (WBTS). What I don't like about FoF, from what I have read, is that it seems a bit too ahistorical.

(in reply to Treefrog)
Post #: 30
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