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Bombardment! What Bombardment??

 
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Bombardment! What Bombardment?? - 6/26/2002 10:35:26 PM   
dpstafford


Posts: 1910
Joined: 5/26/2002
From: Colbert Nation
Status: offline 		What is it with bombardment TF's? I have ordered TF after TF to sail from Rabaul to bombard Port Moresby but they never arrive.
Their first move out of port seems normal enough. On the second day they stop short, usually just east of Japanese held Gilli Gilli, as if "staging" for a night run at PM for the following turn. That's fine, as the TF has Retirement Allowed setting. But on next turn, and all subsequent turns they just sit in that hex. No movement towards PM, and no effort to retire. I'm convinced they would stay in that hex until 1945 if I didn't intervene and order them back to Rabaul. This has occured repeatedly to TF after TF. With different ships and different commanders.
So, not only have I not been able to bombard PM, but my "frozen" TF is then subject to all sorts of retribution. First the relentless attacks by the tritanium hulled "S" boats from the never-miss USN submarine core. Then the 100+ LBA air attacks from the overloaded base at Port Moresby.

This is occuring in a PBEM game, scenario 17, version 1.11.

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- 6/26/2002 11:06:13 PM   
Wilhammer

 

Posts: 449
Joined: 5/24/2002
From: Out in the Sticks of Rockingham County, North Caro
Status: offline 		I have found this to happen for two reasons:

1. Not enough fuel to make it there and back before going into the red.

2. One or more of the ships in the TF, usually do to damage, is not able to travel faster than 25 knots.

(in reply to dpstafford)
Post #: 2
- 6/26/2002 11:17:55 PM   
dpstafford


Posts: 1910
Joined: 5/26/2002
From: Colbert Nation
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wilhammer
[B]I have found this to happen for two reasons:

1. Not enough fuel to make it there and back before going into the red.

2. One or more of the ships in the TF, usually do to damage, is not able to travel faster than 25 knots. [/B][/QUOTE]

1. No. Tanks just topped off.

2. No. No ships damaged. Slowest, a BB, 27 knots.

Thanks for playing. Care to try again?

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Post #: 3
- 6/26/2002 11:36:49 PM   
juliet7bravo

 

Posts: 894
Joined: 5/30/2001
Status: offline 		What's odd, is if you're playing Allied, when the IJN stages in that hex just east of Gilli Gilli to make its bombardment run it...I've NEVER yet had my bombers in Port Moresby launch an attack. Never. Ever. I've begged, I've pleaded, I've put smudgy fingerprints on my monitor from going "THEY"RE RIGHT THERE!!!". If they turn the corner, yes. But in the hex east of GG, no, not once. My tinsel hulled "S" boats die like moths in a flame by "one shot kills" DC attacks by tritanium hulled IJN "We wrote the book on ASW" DD's. My mines seem capable of only sinking my own minelayers.

Obviously, if we were both opposing theatre commanders during WW2, it would have been a very, very long war.

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Post #: 4
- 6/26/2002 11:48:30 PM   
dpstafford


Posts: 1910
Joined: 5/26/2002
From: Colbert Nation
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by juliet7bravo
[B]What's odd, is if you're playing Allied, when the IJN stages in that hex just east of Gilli Gilli to make its bombardment run it...I've NEVER yet had my bombers in Port Moresby launch an attack. Never. Ever. I've begged, I've pleaded, I've put smudgy fingerprints on my monitor from going "THEY"RE RIGHT THERE!!!". If they turn the corner, yes. But in the hex east of GG, no, not once. My tinsel hulled "S" boats die like moths in a flame by "one shot kills" DC attacks by tritanium hulled IJN "We wrote the book on ASW" DD's. My mines seem capable of only sinking my own minelayers.
[/B][/QUOTE]

That's never been my experience. Whether playing IJN or USN, the "S" boats do a lot of damage.
Maybe it has do do with the fact that your call sign is a girl's name, Juliet :D .

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Post #: 5
- 6/26/2002 11:53:45 PM   
AlvinS

 

Posts: 665
Joined: 12/2/2000
From: O'Fallon, Missouri
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Thanks for playing. Care to try again?[/QUOTE]

:rolleyes:

Wilhammer was just pointing out his experience in an attempt to help. Guess thats not good enough?

A simple thanks, but thats not the problem might be more productive.

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"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." ---Mark Twain

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AlvinS

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Post #: 6
- 6/26/2002 11:55:38 PM   
dpstafford


Posts: 1910
Joined: 5/26/2002
From: Colbert Nation
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by AlvinS
[B]

:rolleyes:

Wilhammer was just pointing out his experience in an attempt to help. Guess thats not good enough?

A simple thanks, but thats not the problem might be more productive. [/B][/QUOTE]

If you've got any extra cash, perhaps you could buy a sense of humor. Just a thought.

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Post #: 7
- 6/27/2002 12:39:27 AM   
AlvinS

 

Posts: 665
Joined: 12/2/2000
From: O'Fallon, Missouri
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]If you've got any extra cash, perhaps you could buy a sense of humor. Just a thought.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for playing. :)

_____________________________

"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." ---Mark Twain

Naval Warfare Simulations

AlvinS

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Post #: 8
Thoughts... - 6/27/2002 12:39:55 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Who's in command? An aggressive commander should go for it, even with a 27 knot ship. Most commanders will want 30+ knots to make a run into Port Moresby.

I use only the fast BBs for Port Moresby runs or, even better, a pure cruiser TF of the fast cruisers. Always assign an aggressive commander to these runs to make sure they go through.

Keep in mind that if you have DDs in there, the Japanese DD endurance can be so low that they'll need to be refueled during the bombardment run. That may be causing the commander to hold off.

What does the TF fuel indicator tell you?

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 9
- 6/27/2002 2:03:13 AM   
Panta_slith


Posts: 318
Joined: 4/4/2002
From: Montevideo, Uruguay
Status: offline 		Bombardment TFs work pretty well for the Japs, though. I got Port Moresby bombarded by night and the next morning the offenders were 18 hexes northward. Let's see: sunset should happen at about 1800, perhaps pitch dark at 2100. They started blasting my pityful base and ran away before sundown. Now, 18 hexes make 540 nMiles, about 16 hours steaming at full speed. Those mates were real quick, no doubt!
Cheers,
Panta

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Panta Astiazarán

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Post #: 10
Frozen TF's - 6/27/2002 2:12:27 AM   
mjk428

 

Posts: 1944
Joined: 6/15/2002
From: Western USA
Status: offline 		Hi,

I've had TF's freeze several times, even going from one friendly base to another. I'm pretty sure I've seen others post this problem besides me. I've been able to workaround it by forming a new TF at sea. The worst part about this is it usually takes 2-3 turns for it to dawn on me that the TF isn't moving. I can send a save if you'd like.

I've also had CS convoys suddenly get a mind of their own and try to supply a forward base.

Version 1.11

(in reply to dpstafford)
Post #: 11
Re: Thoughts... - 6/27/2002 2:22:09 AM   
dpstafford


Posts: 1910
Joined: 5/26/2002
From: Colbert Nation
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Erik Rutins
[B]Who's in command? An aggressive commander should go for it, even with a 27 knot ship. Most commanders will want 30+ knots to make a run into Port Moresby.

I use only the fast BBs for Port Moresby runs or, even better, a pure cruiser TF of the fast cruisers. Always assign an aggressive commander to these runs to make sure they go through.

Keep in mind that if you have DDs in there, the Japanese DD endurance can be so low that they'll need to be refueled during the bombardment run. That may be causing the commander to hold off.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Many of the TF's I sent were high speed CA/DD groups. They did the same thing, except for "staging' one hex further away (from PM). I would not be [as] upset if the fleet commander had high-tailed it for home. Failed a fuel, or testosterone check. But if that happened, the fleet should have been heading for home. I content that if any fleet stays in the same hex for multiple days, and that hex is not either its DH or home port, that this should be considered a programming problem. Is it possible that there is conflicting code in the program about which hex to stage in and that this could be causing the TF to perpetually be "staging"?

The low endurance of IJN DD's is a point. Seems to me that if the fleet commander decides he doesn't have enough fuel to complete his mission, his default action should be to head for home. I thought that is what RETIREMENT ALLOWED meant. At my next opportunity, I will put together a bombardmment TF without DD's to see if this affects the situation.

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Post #: 12
- 6/27/2002 2:59:46 AM   
juliet7bravo

 

Posts: 894
Joined: 5/30/2001
Status: offline 		I've tested the bombardment TF thingee carefully, by adding in bunches of PBY search planes so I can watch exactly what's going on, and from playing both sides simultaneously. The bomb TF's will always stage just outside of LBA range, usually about 10 hexes away. That's a 600 mile round trip, or a constant 25 miles an hour. As much as it pains me to admit, it's possible...barely.

Eric is almost undoubtedly correct, it's the DD's attached not having enough fuel to do the mission. If you refuel in route at the staging point, then they have too many OP points to get in/out in time. This happens when you're using a slow (relatively) BB...it's just fast enough to do the job on its own, BUT it slows down the DD's, yet the DD's are still going fast enough to use max fuel, thus creating a vicious cycle where "you can't get there from here". No matter what they do, they can't complete the mission under the parameters for a bombardment mission, ie. shell at night and get out of Dodge. IJN DD's were notoriously short-legged fuel hogs, so it's not a glitch in the code or the ship stats...more like showing the codes accuracy, plus the TF commander stopping and giving you an opportunity to "save" them from certain death within the LBA envelope.

(in reply to dpstafford)
Post #: 13
- 6/27/2002 3:17:36 AM   
dpstafford


Posts: 1910
Joined: 5/26/2002
From: Colbert Nation
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by juliet7bravo
[B]I've tested the bombardment TF thingee carefully, by adding in bunches of PBY search planes so I can watch exactly what's going on, and from playing both sides simultaneously. The bomb TF's will always stage just outside of LBA range, usually about 10 hexes away. That's a 600 mile round trip, or a constant 25 miles an hour. As much as it pains me to admit, it's possible...barely.

Eric is almost undoubtedly correct, it's the DD's attached not having enough fuel to do the mission. If you refuel in route at the staging point, then they have too many OP points to get in/out in time. This happens when you're using a slow (relatively) BB...it's just fast enough to do the job on its own, BUT it slows down the DD's, yet the DD's are still going fast enough to use max fuel, thus creating a vicious cycle where "you can't get there from here". No matter what they do, they can't complete the mission under the parameters for a bombardment mission, ie. shell at night and get out of Dodge. IJN DD's were notoriously short-legged fuel hogs, so it's not a glitch in the code or the ship stats...more like showing the codes accuracy, plus the TF commander stopping and giving you an opportunity to "save" them from certain death within the LBA envelope. [/B][/QUOTE]

I don't think they are staging "just outside of LBA range". LBA range is too variable. I think they are staging so that the DH is exactly half of the TF's (full day) max speed move away.

The rest I'll buy. It's probably the DD's. So the question is what should the TF commander do when he sees he can't complete the mission. Should he sit in the middle of the Bismarck Sea, or return to home port. I think it should ALWAYS be the latter (when RETIREMENT ALLOWED is selected). And that the program should be changed. The deadly embrace you describe should not be allowed, by programming, to occur.

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Post #: 14
- 6/27/2002 4:11:48 AM   
juliet7bravo

 

Posts: 894
Joined: 5/30/2001
Status: offline 		Possibly. Looking at it, I'd suspect that the range difference to only be a hex or two. Kinda hard to judge fuel capacity/OP points/range that closely. Might however, also be the root cause behind some of the other TF's and routine convoys refusing to move...in which case this issue definitely needs to be looked at.

Thinking of it, this might help explain the IJN reasoning behind the large torp armament they outfitted on some of their CL's. Could very well have been a response to a need for a long-legged heavily armed "escort".

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Post #: 15
Bombardment PM - 6/28/2002 2:17:16 PM   
Sven Nyqvist

 

Posts: 17
Joined: 9/10/2000
From: Oberusel, Germany
Status: offline 		I also have the problem of a long leave outside Gili-Gili (There are probalbly some comfort women hidden there) What actually helps is to put the TF on Patrol/Do not retire. You can always hope the PM then is out during daytime that you are not bombed.

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Post #: 16
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