Matrix Games Forums

 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Role Playing

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [Science Fiction] >> Armada 2526 Series >> Role Playing Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Role Playing - 12/15/2009 5:16:04 PM   
siRkid


Posts: 6650
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Orland FL
Status: offline 		WHat this game lacks is an aspect of role playing. There is nothing to make you feel attached to the race you are playing.

_____________________________

Former War in the Pacific Test Team Manager and Beta Tester for War in the East.

Post #: 1
RE: Role Playing - 12/15/2009 7:49:15 PM   
Tom_Holsinger

 

Posts: 233
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline 		Kid,

Fixing that will pretty much require a code patch.  The only spreadsheet changes I can think of off-hand which might help would be more racial-specific tech.  A code patch would be required to:

1)  allow more racially distinct planetary environments, with racial differences in those environments being made more moddable.  Bob said he'll work on this, but the first code patch at best would only allow players to mod those environments.  See this thread - http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2309578 - and Bob's final post in it.

2)  create, or heighten, differences in AI behavior based on an empire's dominant race, hopefully moddable.  A great deal could be done here.  I personally advocate having distinct racial attitudes towards other empires (humans hate the bugs/Teyes but not vice-versa, Hoon Yon and A.R.O.M. hate each other, Linkin & Walden like each other, etc.) with all of that being moddable.  My experience with MOO3 has been that racial animosities and likes are a great means of boosting role-playing.  But anything which changes AI behavior, outside their initial scripts which are mostly related to victory conditions, requires a code patch.

(in reply to siRkid)
Post #: 2
RE: Role Playing - 12/15/2009 8:38:40 PM   
ShotmanMaslo

 

Posts: 37
Joined: 11/20/2009
Status: offline 		Some RPG elements would be great. For example hero ships with unique personalities, experience levels, special abilities.. like Sins :P

_____________________________

It's Better To Burn Out Than To Fade Away...

(in reply to Tom_Holsinger)
Post #: 3
RE: Role Playing - 12/16/2009 2:19:05 AM   
siRkid


Posts: 6650
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Orland FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom_Holsinger

Kid,

Fixing that will pretty much require a code patch.  The only spreadsheet changes I can think of off-hand which might help would be more racial-specific tech.  A code patch would be required to:

1)  allow more racially distinct planetary environments, with racial differences in those environments being made more moddable.  Bob said he'll work on this, but the first code patch at best would only allow players to mod those environments.  See this thread - http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2309578 - and Bob's final post in it.

2)  create, or heighten, differences in AI behavior based on an empire's dominant race, hopefully moddable.  A great deal could be done here.  I personally advocate having distinct racial attitudes towards other empires (humans hate the bugs/Teyes but not vice-versa, Hoon Yon and A.R.O.M. hate each other, Linkin & Walden like each other, etc.) with all of that being moddable.  My experience with MOO3 has been that racial animosities and likes are a great means of boosting role-playing.  But anything which changes AI behavior, outside their initial scripts which are mostly related to victory conditions, requires a code patch.


I like all of this. I would also like to see a race react to how you are treating its citizens. Lets say you take over a planet or two and wipe out the population, that race would hate you for a long time and maybe even fight harder. Maybe role playing in a future add on. I’m talking about the way MOO2 did it with special characters that can be assigned to planets and fleets. Also, have ships gain experience and maybe racial unique abilities.

_____________________________

Former War in the Pacific Test Team Manager and Beta Tester for War in the East.


(in reply to Tom_Holsinger)
Post #: 4
RE: Role Playing - 12/16/2009 3:25:45 AM   
Ntronium


Posts: 161
Joined: 10/23/2009
Status: offline 		Actually killing large amounts of population does make them hate you already.

(in reply to siRkid)
Post #: 5
RE: Role Playing - 12/16/2009 3:28:28 AM   
siRkid


Posts: 6650
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Orland FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ntronium

Actually killing large amounts of population does make them hate you already.


Cool

_____________________________

Former War in the Pacific Test Team Manager and Beta Tester for War in the East.


(in reply to Ntronium)
Post #: 6
RE: Role Playing - 12/16/2009 9:39:36 AM   
Wade1000


Posts: 771
Joined: 10/27/2009
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom_Holsinger

Kid,

Fixing that will pretty much require a code patch.  The only spreadsheet changes I can think of off-hand which might help would be more racial-specific tech.  A code patch would be required to:

1)  allow more racially distinct planetary environments, with racial differences in those environments being made more moddable.  Bob said he'll work on this, but the first code patch at best would only allow players to mod those environments.  See this thread - http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2309578 - and Bob's final post in it.

2)  create, or heighten, differences in AI behavior based on an empire's dominant race, hopefully moddable.  A great deal could be done here.  I personally advocate having distinct racial attitudes towards other empires (humans hate the bugs/Teyes but not vice-versa, Hoon Yon and A.R.O.M. hate each other, Linkin & Walden like each other, etc.) with all of that being moddable.  My experience with MOO3 has been that racial animosities and likes are a great means of boosting role-playing.  But anything which changes AI behavior, outside their initial scripts which are mostly related to victory conditions, requires a code patch.


I disagree with implementing racial attitudes like in MOO3. I think the Civilization 4 model of attitudes is better. They all start out neutral and over time varoius hatreds and friendships develop depending on deals, actions, alliances, trades, etc. No attitudes are pre-set. Either do it like that or leave it as is is my opinion.

I greatly dislike pre-set partial stories/histories and artifial limits in 4Ex strategy games.

_____________________________

Wish list:population centers beyond planetary(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture):Ships,Ring Orbitals,Sphere Orbitals,Ringworlds,Sphereworlds;ability to create & destroy planets,population centers,stars;AI competently using all advances & features.

(in reply to Tom_Holsinger)
Post #: 7
RE: Role Playing - 12/16/2009 10:54:19 PM   
Joram

 

Posts: 3198
Joined: 7/15/2005
Status: offline 		I agree with Wade. Otherwise you're going to get essentially the same allies and enemies everytime.

(in reply to Wade1000)
Post #: 8
RE: Role Playing - 12/17/2009 6:13:46 PM   
Tom_Holsinger

 

Posts: 233
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline 		The responses by Wade and Joram show a classic conflict in these types of games.  They object to the concept of a game having a “backstory” of events which occurred before those in the game.  It is very difficult to role-play turn-based space 4x games without a backstory, so this is really an objection to the concept of role-playing such games, including in the eXploration phase where some games have important ruins, space monsters, etc., all of which involve the players discovering events which occurred in the game’s backstory.

The conflict is that it is pretty much impossible for the designer of a turn-based space 4x game to simultaneously satisfy the players who want role-playing and the ones who don’t.   It is possible to split the difference, but that is generally done by letting players design their own ships, which lets them identify with their fleets in combat.  Absent player design of their own ships, though, it is both difficult to split the difference and there is a non-trivial risk of just antagonizing both groups.

Armada 2526 has little role-playing, and this might be intentional.  It will be interesting to see what kind of market success it has if patches don’t beef it up much in this regard.

Minor improvements in the eXploration and eXpansion phase, by adding more types of race-specific planetary environments, will boost role-playing only a little, and merit doing more because this is an expected feature of turn-based space 4x games than for role-playing reasons.

What counts more for role-playing per se are distinct differences in behavior between the various races, including as player empires, and it is the game's failure to do do so concerning technology which leads me to suspect that its absence of role-playing might have been intentional. As an example, the races with advantages in hyper-space and psychic research could have been been given some default technologies in those areas. Game play would certainly be different if the ground troops of race with a psychic advantage had the default ability to terrify the ground troops of other races.

In any event, the first code patch will be pretty good evidence as to whether the game's relative dearth of role-playing was intentional. If the first code-patch doesn't beef it up, the absence was intentional. If the first code patch beefs up role-playing, that will tend to indicate that Ntronium just ran out of time developing the game before the release date came up.

< Message edited by Tom_Holsinger -- 12/17/2009 9:34:36 PM >

(in reply to Joram)
Post #: 9
RE: Role Playing - 12/17/2009 10:15:20 PM   
Joram

 

Posts: 3198
Joined: 7/15/2005
Status: offline 		I would disagree simply because Sword of the Stars does it so well.  And there is, as far as I know, no preinclination of any of the races to hate any other.  Granted diplomacy is not a big part of that game but I don't think that invalidates my point.  Each race has a great backstory and feel to it.

<add> I agree with your comment that it may be intentional which is fine by me. I can understand some people wanting more attachment but it's not a big negative in my book. The different victory conditions by race is enough for me to want to try them all out and see what best fits my style.

< Message edited by Joram -- 12/17/2009 10:17:40 PM >

(in reply to Tom_Holsinger)
Post #: 10
RE: Role Playing - 12/17/2009 11:19:37 PM   
Grotius


Posts: 5798
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline 		I suppose one compromise would be a toggle. Give every race a deeper backstory, and then toggle whether the backstory influences diplomacy in the game. Or one could have a scenario with pre-made campaign, complete with events and plot twists, kind of like the "story mode" you get in Gal Civ II.

But I imagine those ideas would be time-consuming to implement! I'd prefer that the developer focus on other priorities for now.

(in reply to Joram)
Post #: 11
RE: Role Playing - 12/17/2009 11:39:18 PM   
Tom_Holsinger

 

Posts: 233
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline 		Exactly, Grotius. It's a question of priorities. While I would love to have the option of creating racial animosities and preferences for diplomacy purposes, because I'd have so much fun modding those in MOO3, more racial variation in planetary environments clearly has priority.

AFAIK, most reviews of the game have commented unfavorably on its lack of variation in planetary environments, and such variation is pretty much expected by players. Bob said the most he'd do in that regard in a patch would be to allow players to mod more planetary environments, and racial preferences in those environments.

Given market and reviewer expectations, those should appear by default, as opposed to being something players add with mods. That Bob is going for the latter, if he has time to do it at all, shows just how limited new features in patches will be. You can look at my suggestions in the other thread and see how I was trying to make those fit as closely as possible with the existing code.

In my very inexperienced opinion, adding planetary and fleet leaders to Armada 2526 would be harder to code than adding code so players could mod racial dislikes and preferences in diplomacy. When making enhancement requests, it is important to consider how difficult those would be to code. The easier it is for Bob to add something, the more likely he'll do so if enough players request it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grotius

But I imagine those ideas would be time-consuming to implement! I'd prefer that the developer focus on other priorities for now.


(in reply to Grotius)
Post #: 12
RE: Role Playing - 12/18/2009 5:01:01 AM   
Ntronium


Posts: 161
Joined: 10/23/2009
Status: offline 		I'm not a big fan of baking too much back story, or built in attitudes into this sort of game.  The game is about going out and exploring, setting your own strategy, and creating your own story. In fact ever since TW days I've been wanting to add more features to reinforce the idea that you're creating your own story, and give you a means to review it. Unfortunately, when development realities bite, these non essential features are always the ones that have to go. Still I hope to sneak some of them back in a patch later.

Also in a random scenario where your race has only just acquired FTL travel, it makes no sense that you have some ancient ancestral hatred for some race that way well start on the other side of the galaxy.

What the game does provide is the scenario mechanism, that allow you set up starting positions and back stories that work together. I didn't get to do as many of these as I would have liked, so I don't think people are seeing the potential of the mechanism. Hopefully I'll have time to make some more in the future

(in reply to Tom_Holsinger)
Post #: 13
RE: Role Playing - 12/18/2009 7:54:31 AM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline 		Yeah. I like making my own history.

(in reply to Ntronium)
Post #: 14
RE: Role Playing - 12/18/2009 3:53:03 PM   
Tom_Holsinger

 

Posts: 233
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline 		Bob, if there is a second code patch and you have the time, it would be nice if you do for diplomacy what you said you'll try to do for planetary environments, i.e, add the racial preferences feature for players to implement through mods. That way those players who want racial diplomacy preferences could add them for scenarios. It should be fairly simple to implement.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ntronium

I'm not a big fan of baking too much back story, or built in attitudes into this sort of game.  The game is about going out and exploring, setting your own strategy, and creating your own story. In fact ever since TW days I've been wanting to add more features to reinforce the idea that you're creating your own story, and give you a means to review it. Unfortunately, when development realities bite, these non essential features are always the ones that have to go. Still I hope to sneak some of them back in a patch later.

Also in a random scenario where your race has only just acquired FTL travel, it makes no sense that you have some ancient ancestral hatred for some race that way well start on the other side of the galaxy.

What the game does provide is the scenario mechanism, that allow you set up starting positions and back stories that work together. I didn't get to do as many of these as I would have liked, so I don't think people are seeing the potential of the mechanism. Hopefully I'll have time to make some more in the future


(in reply to Ntronium)
Post #: 15
RE: Role Playing - 12/18/2009 5:03:43 PM   
Grotius


Posts: 5798
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline
quote:

What the game does provide is the scenario mechanism, that allow you set up starting positions and back stories that work together. I didn't get to do as many of these as I would have liked, so I don't think people are seeing the potential of the mechanism. Hopefully I'll have time to make some more in the future

I'd enjoy playing such a scenario. I don't know if Armada permits you to include "events" or "plot twists" in such a scenario, but I'd love that.

(in reply to Tom_Holsinger)
Post #: 16
RE: Role Playing - 12/18/2009 5:45:41 PM   
Tom_Holsinger

 

Posts: 233
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline 		Bob & Grotius,

Does the game already have a feature allowing for racial-specific technology which cannot be traded? If so, that could be used to give races, and perhaps racial factions, specific innate abilities. As an example, the Qa Qa could be given a racial-specific, non-tradeable, tech at the start of a scenario which lets them sense and use large wormholes.

(in reply to Grotius)
Post #: 17
RE: Role Playing - 12/18/2009 5:50:08 PM   
Iceman

 

Posts: 239
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline 		If you mean tech bartering, nope.

(in reply to Tom_Holsinger)
Post #: 18
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [Science Fiction] >> Armada 2526 Series >> Role Playing Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

1.297